E85 fuel mods

[lateshow]

Hi, it has been dead silent here but some news. We're actually nearly ready with a flexifuel ecu -mod for vr4. Has ANYONE here driven with E85 fuel, just generally interested how the 6a13tt behaves with that kind of fuel...

But back to the mod itself: It is based on ethanol sensor (GM) and a converter that converts the Hz to voltage which is then fed the ecu via PIN 75... we have already tested the new rom with a voltage generator and everything worked fine. It will generally interpolate the following stuff: injector size, AFR map, ignition map, boost maps, and starup primer. Interpolation will be made so that car can be driven in closed loop and it will be spot on. Ignition for ethanol can be tuned something like +2 to +4 and this will be interpolated as well.

Any comments or interest in this?

[veegeeta]

Steve from transformance engineering aust runs e85 no probs says car runs cooler and has figers somewhere in the 220kwt at wheels.

[SEAN-NZ]

doesnt create an issue with pushing the injectors hard? as i thought that the car would go through a fair bit more fuel on E85?

[Ryan]

Yes.
@Kenneth has 1000cc injectors which I believe he fitted for this purpose. Whether or not he's advanced his E85 research remains to be seen.

doesnt create an issue with pushing the injectors hard? as i thought that the car would go through a fair bit more fuel on E85?

[SEAN-NZ]

ahh, could it be done on stock injectors? or even full stock fuel system?

[Anderz]

The stock injectors would probably not be enough, but as Lauri said we have not tested yet
It could be a good idea to upgrade the fuelpump, and you need to modify the fuel return hose to connect the inline sensor

[CANDEE]

Steve at TME is running 550cc injectors for the E85 set up.

[lateshow]

Steve from transformance engineering aust runs e85 no probs says car runs cooler and has figers somewhere in the 220kwt at wheels.

Which turbos does Steve have?

[CANDEE]

Just std ones Lauri, I think it was done as an exercise to see what happens on E85.

[lateshow]

Guess what guys! Yesterday I installed the GM sensor and converter and now I have the world's first vr4 as a REAL flexifuel!

[Davezj]

reda this thread and thought this might be of interest, but you have probably done this already, kenneth pointed me to this thread from his 2.0 rom thread.

this is for you guys that want to use kenneth's map switching for running ethanol based fuel and petrol based fuel without having to empty the tank before you fill up with the other fuel.
appartently it is done with an external sensor that monitors the percentage of ethanol to pertol and this is feed into the ecu which interpolates between the petrol and ethanol fuel and ignition maps
to give you the correct configuration depending on what mix of fuel you have in the tank.
well that is how i read it.

this is from the evolutionM.net web site and it seems to be quite a good write up, i thought the bones of it could be used and ported accross and used rather than building from scratch.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflas...n-evo-ecu.html

hope this helps someone.

[lathiat]

Keen to see this. I guess we need to replace a bunch of seals and such for this?

[Anderz]

Af far as I know Lauri has only changed the return line from the regulator to the pipe, as the ethanol sensor is connected there
It is clear that the stock injectors wont be enough with upped boost and E85

This rom does not use mapswitching, it uses two maps for injector size, AFR, ignition, boost, and starup primer
Ecu then interpolates between the maps based on the 0-5V signal fed to rear O2 port

Going to install this when I get my car finished

[Davezj]

you probably know this already but i thought i would put this up for reference

Lambda E85 AFR Gas AFR
0.500 4.880 7.350
0.510 4.978 7.497
0.520 5.075 7.644
0.530 5.173 7.791
0.540 5.271 7.938
0.550 5.368 8.085
0.560 5.466 8.232
0.570 5.563 8.379
0.580 5.661 8.526
0.590 5.759 8.673
0.600 5.856 8.820
0.610 5.954 8.967
0.620 6.051 9.114
0.630 6.149 9.261
0.640 6.247 9.408
0.650 6.344 9.555
0.660 6.442 9.702
0.670 6.539 9.849
0.680 6.637 9.996
0.690 6.735 10.143
0.700 6.832 10.290
0.710 6.930 10.437
0.720 7.027 10.584
0.730 7.125 10.731
0.740 7.223 10.878
0.750 7.320 11.025
0.760 7.418 11.172
0.770 7.515 11.319
0.780 7.613 11.466
0.790 7.711 11.613
0.800 7.808 11.760
0.810 7.906 11.907
0.820 8.003 12.054
0.830 8.101 12.201
0.840 8.199 12.348
0.850 8.296 12.495
0.860 8.394 12.642
0.870 8.491 12.789
0.880 8.589 12.936
0.890 8.687 13.083
0.900 8.784 13.230
0.910 8.882 13.377
0.920 8.979 13.524
0.930 9.077 13.671
0.940 9.175 13.818
0.950 9.272 13.965
0.960 9.370 14.112
0.970 9.467 14.259
0.980 9.565 14.406
0.990 9.663 14.553
1.000 9.760 14.700
1.010 9.858 14.847
1.020 9.955 14.994
1.030 10.053 15.141
1.040 10.151 15.288
1.050 10.248 15.435
1.060 10.346 15.582
1.070 10.443 15.729
1.080 10.541 15.876
1.090 10.639 16.023
1.100 10.736 16.170
1.110 10.834 16.317
1.120 10.931 16.464
1.130 11.029 16.611
1.140 11.127 16.758
1.150 11.224 16.905
1.160 11.322 17.052
1.170 11.419 17.199
1.180 11.517 17.346
1.190 11.615 17.493
1.200 11.712 17.640
1.210 11.810 17.787
1.220 11.907 17.934
1.230 12.005 18.081
1.240 12.103 18.228
1.250 12.200 18.375
1.260 12.298 18.522
1.270 12.395 18.669
1.280 12.493 18.816
1.290 12.591 18.963
1.300 12.688 19.110
1.310 12.786 19.257
1.320 12.883 19.404
1.330 12.981 19.551
1.340 13.079 19.698
1.350 13.176 19.845
1.360 13.274 19.992
1.370 13.371 20.139
1.380 13.469 20.286
1.390 13.567 20.433
1.400 13.664 20.580
1.410 13.762 20.727
1.420 13.859 20.874
1.430 13.957 21.021
1.440 14.055 21.168
1.450 14.152 21.315
1.460 14.250 21.462
1.470 14.347 21.609
1.480 14.445 21.756
1.490 14.543 21.903
1.500 14.640 22.050

[lateshow]

Done about 5000km with mostly RE85 (due to bad locations of the stations selling this stuff and me driving mostly durign rush hours I sometimes have to use gasoline)

Changed the pump to walbro couple of weeks ago. The old one seemed good and so did the lines.

Fuel consumption is roughly 30 % more than with gasoline.

The right AFR for full boost should be about 12.2. I''m still running a bit rich.

About ignition: I think that I should propably try to use Mine's ignition which is quite rough. But one cannot tune with knock now so maybe a dyno session later when i have the manual gearbox. Tuning the auto in dyno is no use. In great speeds it slips quite a bit when accelarating. I think that after 3500 rpm it will hold.

I have the original catalytic converter in it's place now and it seems to restrict quite a bit. This is due to the bigger amount of exhaust gasses (E85) when comparing to gasoline.

Is anyone else interested about this mod. I could post the rom here and some instructions. Who'd like to go flexifuel?

[AKKO]

E85 fuel isn't readily available at the pump here but have most of the prerequisites done should that ever change.

[Davezj]

Af far as I know Lauri has only changed the return line from the regulator to the pipe, as the ethanol sensor is connected there
It is clear that the stock injectors wont be enough with upped boost and E85

This rom does not use mapswitching, it uses two maps for injector size, AFR, ignition, boost, and starup primer
Ecu then interpolates between the maps based on the 0-5V signal fed to rear O2 port

Going to install this when I get my car finished

I was refering to Kenneth's 2.0 rom that he created. this has 8 way map switching that you can set up to do whatever you want.
You just have to understand the the map switching criteria to ensure you are on the correct map at the correct time. Or manually force the map switching with external switch tied into the ecu.
The stock ecu can't do it as it operates as you say with the hi and low maps and interpolates between them.

[Davezj]

Done about 5000km with mostly RE85 (due to bad locations of the stations selling this stuff and me driving mostly durign rush hours I sometimes have to use gasoline)

Changed the pump to walbro couple of weeks ago. The old one seemed good and so did the lines.

Fuel consumption is roughly 30 % more than with gasoline.

The right AFR for full boost should be about 12.2. I''m still running a bit rich.

About ignition: I think that I should propably try to use Mine's ignition which is quite rough. But one cannot tune with knock now so maybe a dyno session later when i have the manual gearbox. Tuning the auto in dyno is no use. In great speeds it slips quite a bit when accelarating. I think that after 3500 rpm it will hold.

I have the original catalytic converter in it's place now and it seems to restrict quite a bit. This is due to the bigger amount of exhaust gasses (E85) when comparing to gasoline.

Is anyone else interested about this mod. I could post the rom here and some instructions. Who'd like to go flexifuel?

Rom and instruction would be much welcome, from an interest point of view as we don't have e85 fuel in the uk yet. I could not use it.
But to see how you have implemented it and set the ecu rom up would be very interesting.

[Anderz]

Flex fuel could probably be implemented with KS 2.0 aswell
However this rom is a custom rom patch called FreeFuel
As i said it uses one set of maps and parameters for gasoline and another set for ethanol
The ecu interpolates between the maps based on measured ethanol content, via a sensor connected to the rear O2 port

I was refering to Kenneth's 2.0 rom that he created. this has 8 way map switching that you can set up to do whatever you want.
You just have to understand the the map switching criteria to ensure you are on the correct map at the correct time. Or manually force the map switching with external switch tied into the ecu.
The stock ecu can't do it as it operates as you say with the hi and low maps and interpolates between them.

[lateshow]

I will ask the creator of this patch if I can release it here. I think that won't be an issue. And I said we have about 100 interpolation points (due to voltage input) so it's a bit more than eight This is based on Kenneth's 1.3 rom so that we can have the big fuel and ignition maps. And laucnh too and all the other nice functions. Then only thing missing is SD.... if we had that this would be called the "Godlike-mod".

To demonstrate, my ethanol scaling for 85% is 240 and my fuel scaling for 5% is 355 at the moment. -> When i have full ethanol i get 4 volts from the system which is then fed to ecu -> ecu sets scaling to 240. When I tank up some gasoline and get lets see 50% mix so that i have 50 % alcohol I then get another value from between 240 and 355, quite close to 300 I would suspect. Then I have to fuel maps. Ethanol one is set to 12.2 at high loads and gasoline one to 11.5. For instance. It interpolates which map it uses. And the same for ignition. And boost. And starting primer. Easy and godlike. This whole idea was written by some chaps here in Finland.