Which Exhaust ?

[Spirit]

Been having a nosey around at exhausts and now I want to throw it open to you guys.

Which exhaust would you buy and why ? What power gains can I expect ? Any issues to worry about ?

So far I have a standard VR-4 INSERT INTO post VALUES (6A13TT) with just a HKS Super Power Flow fitted.

I have seen these exhausts:

HKS Super Drager - approx £545 + VAT
Blitz Realize TT - approx £482 + VAT
Trust BL MX Muffler - approx £366 + VAT

Cheers

Pete

[BraindG]

I would say got for the Drager..

ive got one, and it sounds pretty buff..
once i get the car back INSERT INTO post VALUES (unless your in a hurry) ill record it, and post either an mp3 or mpeg..

gives you a good idea of how it sounds..
the technicall info, im not sure...

[Brind]

I have the HKS Super Drager, I can't really say what the performance was like before and after as it was already on the car.
Deffo sounds powerful, but on idle she's pretty quiet.

Since you have an HKS filter why not go for the HKS zorst?

[Roadrunner]

I had a Blitz Realize TT on my Legacy RS-B. Quality piece of engineering, but with a caveat:

The twin-turbo Legacy has, as standard, a 2½" bore all the way from the down pipes, through the cat, through the expansion box to the back box. Just before the back box, the exhaust splits into two, both pipes going into the back box. One of these pipes goes straight through, the other goes through a complete 360 within the back box before both pipes exit through a 3" tail pipe. On the straight-through pipe into the back box, there's a valve that is closed at low revs, forcing the gases through the extended pipework, keeping back-pressure up and improving torque. When the second turbo kicks in INSERT INTO post VALUES (sequential turbo setup); the valve opens allowing the gases to flow freely through the straight-through pipe and increasing top-end power. Quite clever and quite effective, providing the best of both worlds - good low-down torque and good high-end power.

The Blitz back box has a 3" bore with a single pipe into the back box and a 4" tail pipe. The nett result of fitting this box was to change the torque curve and move it higher up the rev range so, instead of developing peak torque around 4-4½k revs INSERT INTO post VALUES (which is where the second turbo kicked in, thereby giving maximum torque with the high-pressure turbo); the torque curve moved about 1k revs higher, the second turbo didn't kick in until around 5k revs by which time the first turbo had run out of puff and the driving experience was changed significantly.

The great low-down torque disappeared and was replaced by a smoother, but lesser, urge. At the top-end, the car really flew because the top-end power was increased by the freer flowing gases. In terms of 0-60, 0-100 or any other relatively meaningless acceleration comparison, the times were approximately the same as they'd always been, but the car just wasn't as much fun to drive. You can't spend all day in the 6-7½k rev band ;)

I guess the morale is: make sure you understand what difference a change in exhaust bore can make to the characteristics of the car before you shell out your hard-earned cash. As a guide, the works rally cars use 2½" bore exhausts all the way through because, I guess, torque is more important. Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.

Brian

[Spirit]

You certainly know your stuff H7 - thanks for the info. I take it you have a standard exhaust on your VR-4 at the moment then ?

Pete

[BraindG]

i was thinking that..

how about a lille write up?
something for the site?

[Roadrunner]

Yep, standard exhaust at the moment. I'll likely keep it that way until it needs replacing, then look to see what's on the market and also ask people on here if they've any good experiences of non-OEM systems or part systems.

Re writing something for the site, I guess it depends what you're looking for. I haven't had a close look at the VR-4 system INSERT INTO post VALUES (but I could do!) to see if there's any damn clever Japanese trickery there but I'd guess with the parallel turbo setup it's probably relatively straightforward.

I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences with after-market systems to see if there's any noticeable differences between systems.

Cheers,
Brian

[Spirit]

Just for a bit of fun I found this on the HKS website in Japan:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/exhaust/muffler/silent/silent.html#

Click on the "Sound" button

:D :D :D

Pete

[BraindG]

/wets himself

omfg..

[Roadrunner]

Subaru exhaust? Far too rough to be a VR-4 :D

[BraindG]

true.. its missing the v6 rumble :)

[Spirit]

Liked the cool graphics with the key and the smoke coming out the tip :D

[Spirit]

I have sent an email to Taka Kaira to see how much it would cost me to have a HKS Super Drager shipped directly from Japan.

Their website lists it at 69000 Yen INSERT INTO post VALUES (approx £350) plus shipping - and considering they are £640 inc Vat INSERT INTO post VALUES (plus delivery) over here it may well work out quite a bit cheaper.

I will let you know when I get a reply.

Pete

[zentac]

Ive been doing some digging round about exhausts, as I need a complete system for my engine transplant. These 3 places come highly recomended

Ascar INSERT INTO post VALUES (In Sheffield) (http://www.exhaustsuk.co.uk)

TubeTorque INSERT INTO post VALUES (in Macclesfield) (http://www.tubetorque.co.uk)

Hayward & Scott INSERT INTO post VALUES (in Essex) (http://www.haywardandscott.co.uk)

so depends where abouts in the country you are.

[zentac]

If you want things bringing in from Japan talk to Duncan at Tokyo Express (http://www.tokyo-express.co.uk)

He can normally get things in cheaper than listed on jap websites.

[Il Dottore]

I have gone for a Hayward and Scott Turbo Back system bec all other available options were only Back boxes. H&S are charging £500 for the full system....It get's fitted on 1st May, so I will report back then, or you can wait until Japfest...

Phil.

[Spirit]

Phil

I was advised that each of the three I mentioned originally were all from Cat back systems, not just backboxes ?

Pete

[Il Dottore]

The Dragger is a CAT back I think, but the Realize TT is only the back box.

They were all over £500, so the H&S looked a good deal for me as it was Turbo back...

Phil.

[Roadrunner]

I haven't looked carefully at the VR-4 system INSERT INTO post VALUES (sorry, away from home at present and unable to check) but I'd expect it to consist of downpipes at the front, a centre section with the cat and a rear section with the back box, so I'd expect "cat back" and "back box" to be the same.

Brian

[calum]

I'm gonna have to recommend mine - it's great! Quiet on cruise and idle and howls then rasps when booting it. Well made too. http://www.fujitsubo.co.jp

Think it's a Legalis R. There's a sound thing on their site too.

Calum

[chris g]

Although I have enquired at H & S about an exhaust and had HKS kit on prev MR2, I am goint to try Tube Torque at Macclesfield

Will visit and get details - I want S/S, improved torque/power with 95 db and meeting emissions standards BUT NOT reducing or altering driveability at all AND not intrusive noise

I had thought of Super Drager but it is noisier/flashier than I want and is only part system/not S/S so would have to be mated to other new bits to have a fuller free flowing system

Will check out prices etc and post details ASAP

They suggets two day fitting but if system OK they could ? 'jig' ? the pattern etc and provide/fit to other VR-4's perhaps quicker

Visiting this PM hopefully

Chris

[Brind]

I have no idea on the power gains or losses with the HKS but I have to say that when I went to view the car I wasn't very impressed with the size and the fairly intrusive noise when you put your foot down.

But after finding out it cost the previous owner nigh on a K to have it supplied and fitted by Ralliart themselves I all of a sudden welcomed it!!:eek:

It has a superb sound from the outside though!! and very quiet on idle with a deep powerful grumble.


Plus, Braind G and I have the same Drager zorst and HKS filter, you have to follow suit since you already have the same filter.:)

[chris g]

Visited Tube Torque at Macclesfield and quite impressed by them.

Easy to talk to and knowledgable it seemed.

They put car on ramp and we had a look around and I asked questions about what we could see fitted as standard.

2 downpipes from engine, each with a sort of mini-cat - decribed by TT as pre-cat - and then pipes from these 'things' came down and then moved along underside of car for short distance - in these two lengths of pipe are two flexible sections.

These pipes then joined together at rather a sharp angle - described by TT as a point where gases fought each other.

Then a pipe leading to the cat then pipe to silencer then a smaller silencer and then pipe at right angle to R then right angle L into back box.

Back box has 4 chambers it seems.

TT suggested various options for changing system to give more power and torque

I wanted same driveability, 95db and to meet emission controls AND to have power and torque increased

They offered system/changes from 'mini cats' as I called them - prices as fitted and add vat

DOWN PIPES
2 new down pipes from 'mini cats' INSERT INTO post VALUES (TT suggest leaving mini cats' in) - to flow under car then join smoothly into one - £240

DE-CAT
To connect to de-cat pipe with tube - £56
or connect to a de-cat pipe with flexible section - £126

TT suggest flex section not needed and car should meet emissions standards with just 'mini cats' - but cat can be left in system if wanted and other bits can be removed - see silencer quote

MID SECTION
New mid section without silencers - £240
New cmid section with 1 new silencer - £290

TT suggest only 1 new silencer needed to reduce boom/noise if cat removed -if cat stays then remove both silencers - but recommendation is remove cat have 1 new silencer

Silencers are straight thru but reduce noise

REAR SILENCER/BACK BOX
Mid section then connects to new rear silencer/back box which again is straight thru but reduces noise - £160

Length of rear silencer/back box can vary according to your preference for noise reduction

Pipes into rear silencer/back box still have to go thru right angles but will enter rear silencer in centre and not to one side as at present

Tail pipe can be straight/slash/rolled - to your choice and diameter of tail pipe 2.5/3/3.5/4" as desired

System is in stainless steel and can have pipes 2.5/3" as desired

All these bits can be mixed and matched to vary increase power/torque - no figures given AND varied to control noise as desired

MAX POWER - down pipe/de-cat/mid section/rear silencer

MOD INCREASE de-cat/rear silencer

SMALL INCREASE - either de-cat OR rear silencer

INTERMEDIATE INCREASE - mid section and rear silencer

So I am looking at MAX POWER for £746 plus VAT although cash may affect the price

I will ask for guarantees that noise limit of 95db would be met and emissions standards would not be exceeded at MoT

If any of these are a problem I will demand a committment before fitting, that they would correct problem FoC if I have to return to them

So, I may be getting sensitive but I am going to state it anyway, this is not a sales pitch, just a report of my visit and views from TT

Read it and make your own choice about checking them out

A final point - they can make a jig for future VR-4 customers

Chris

[Spirit]

Chris

This is excellent information and thank you for taking the time to type it all out for the forum.

I had an email from Racelogic yesterday to say they can supply the Blitz Realize TT for a VR-4 aswell - £513 + VAT + delivery - have it listed for the EC5W 10/96 to 8/98.

I was discussing this with Barry this morning - I have the saloon VR-4 and the chassis starts EC5A. Is the EC5W the Legnum ? Is there any difference in terms of the exhaust because if you look on the HKS Europe website the Super Dragger is listed as EC5A/W which implies it fits either.

Can anyone clarify this and has anyone got experience of the Blitz system - seems a little expensive to me.

Pete

[Simon]

New HKS Super Dragger Part 3301 - SM023 Model: EC5a/W 6A13...as some others were concerned regarding...would it fit!.

[chris g]

Just got back from collecting car from Tube Torque at Macclesfield

They fitted a s/s exhaust system from downpipes back

Left in what they called pre-cats which I think of as mini cats

Noise at start up and tickover different and throughout the rev range

Holds higher gears longer in auto and changes up quicker in auto as well

I believe that this is due to better breathing and useable power available to allow car/gearbox to cope with higher gear at lower revs

Seems to be more power thru rev range and as I said exhaust note is different as car is working thru rev range

Going to Ring, Spa and A1-Ring over next 7 days for laps in VR-4 so will let you know how it goes

AND IT TESTED AT 94.4 DB so just emissions to watch out for come MoT - TT say it WILL pass

[ANTHONY]

have you still got this exhaust Chris and did it pass the mot with out the cat?