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enigma
21-11-2005, 08:52 AM
and conversion to speed density system............

Coming to a Legnum near you soon! ;)

:evil2:

Wodjno
21-11-2005, 09:28 AM
and conversion to speed density system............

Coming to a Legnum near you soon! ;)

:evil2:

Is this on your current car or the Racer .. /Hmmm

Oh ! And good luck /yes

enigma
21-11-2005, 09:38 AM
Is this on your current car or the Racer .. /Hmmm

yes ;)

bradc
21-11-2005, 09:46 AM
wahoo, you finally saw the light! And I know who's car convinced you ;)

enigma
21-11-2005, 10:15 AM
wahoo, you finally saw the light! And I know who's car convinced you ;)

Not at all! Its just that I can! I like to tinker, and further the knowledge of the club! :smug:

I am not really after the performance benefit myself as I already have more power than I can use day to day, and even more if I want it at the track! BUT there are people out there who are interested in developing their cars and I aim to provide how tos and a testbed!

I am suprised you chaps in NZ haven't done it yet, as it is a cheap and seemingly easy mod from a NZ supplier!

I paid $399us for it to be shipped to my door! Imagine how much it would be for locals!

While a certain member has gone to town going the no maf route, he seems to be unaware as to how it was done. I am not in to paying someone to do stuff, I would much rather do my own thing and share the wealth! :thumbsup:

bradc
21-11-2005, 07:27 PM
I'm going to be removing my maf as well and going with a similar setup to Uc, I don't know much about the exact workings of lots of this like this, but I know I want to get rid of the maf.

Who sells this thing in NZ?

enigma
21-11-2005, 07:34 PM
try these good people

performance motor research (http://www.performancemotorresearch.co.nz/ )

You may get a very good price!

Kenneth
21-11-2005, 08:52 PM
try these good people

performance motor research (http://www.performancemotorresearch.co.nz/ )

You may get a very good price!

I was planning on one of them myself, have had their site bookmarked for about a year :P

$399US eh? I heard they were around $1100NZ :inquisiti

I'll have to inquire, because $399US should be within my budget pretty soon /Hmmm


did you get it direct from them???

enigma
21-11-2005, 09:15 PM
I was planning on one of them myself, have had their site bookmarked for about a year :P

$399US eh? I heard they were around $1100NZ :inquisiti

I'll have to inquire, because $399US should be within my budget pretty soon /Hmmm


did you get it direct from them???


Yep Direct!

Speak to Peter and tell him I sent you ;)

Kenneth
21-11-2005, 09:24 PM
Yep Direct!

Speak to Peter and tell him I sent you ;)

did you ring, or use email? if email, you got his email? im supposed to get pricing info from one of their re-sellers (thats what the web site says anyway) but im not really interested in going thru a middle-man :P

AllBeItMine
21-11-2005, 09:34 PM
I think that you'll find that a MAP ECU like any other fuel controller, when used with bigger injectors, screws your timing by advancing it, because it thinks there is less airflow. The end result is knock. To get the most out of it you'll need somthing to retard the timing like an E manage or Apexi ITC used with it.

enigma
21-11-2005, 09:37 PM
I think that you'll find that a MAP ECU like any other fuel controller, when used with bigger injectors, screws your timing by advancing it, because it thinks there is less airflow. The end result is knock. To get the most out of it you'll need somthing to retard the timing like an E manage or Apexi ITC used with it.

Bigger injectors not required ;)

Not just yet anyway!

Its not really about the fuel controller, its about the MAF removal - just for the hell of it!

Wodjno
21-11-2005, 10:34 PM
Sell yur E-Manage and your Speed Density System /yes

And puchase an E-Manage Ultimate.. /yes

I'm sure you could find someone to supply you with one /Hmmm :joker:

enigma
21-11-2005, 10:37 PM
Sell yur E-Manage and your Speed Density System /yes

And puchase an E-Manage Ultimate.. /yes

I'm sure you could find someone to supply you with one /Hmmm :joker:

It doesn't auto learn though! A LOT more effort to map properly for MAF removal.

The MAP ECU can be installed on the car and forgotten about for 2 weeks while you go about your normal business! Then swap it to output mode and remoe the MAF ;) A bit of tweaking later and you are done! Easy enough even for you Glenn! /Hmmm

Kenneth
21-11-2005, 10:40 PM
I think that you'll find that a MAP ECU like any other fuel controller, when used with bigger injectors, screws your timing by advancing it, because it thinks there is less airflow. The end result is knock. To get the most out of it you'll need somthing to retard the timing like an E manage or Apexi ITC used with it.

Wont the knock sensors pick this up and the ECU retard the ignition? I assumed this was essentially how it works out if you are using inferior fuel.

AllBeItMine
21-11-2005, 11:20 PM
Wont the knock sensors pick this up and the ECU retard the ignition? I assumed this was essentially how it works out if you are using inferior fuel.

probably - but why would you want that to happen?

i looked pretty seriously at both the emanage and the mapecu but they are both piggy back systems that fool your ECU into thinking stuff is happening that actually isn't.

it just bends the signals from the airflow metre which makes the stock ecu inject more/less fuel... but the ECU is also programmed to do other stuff at the same time like play with the ignition and timing.

i think for close enough money to the mapecu piggy back, a full replacement programable ECU could be bought and tuned to completely control everything so nothing is left to chance.

enigma
21-11-2005, 11:26 PM
probably - but why would you want that to happen?

i looked pretty seriously at both the emanage and the mapecu but they are both piggy back systems that fool your ECU into thinking stuff is happening that actually isn't.

it just bends the signals from the airflow metre which makes the stock ecu inject more/less fuel... but the ECU is also programmed to do other stuff at the same time like play with the ignition and timing.

i think for close enough money to the mapecu piggy back, a full replacement programable ECU could be bought and tuned to completely control everything so nothing is left to chance.


Show me a fully programmable ECU for $400us!

Wodjno
21-11-2005, 11:37 PM
Show me a fully programmable ECU for $400us!
;) ;) ;) ;)

AllBeItMine
21-11-2005, 11:46 PM
Show me a fully programmable ECU for $400us!

The entry level Link ECU is $850NZD the link plus is $1300

The Vee
21-11-2005, 11:51 PM
Show me a fully programmable ECU for $400us!

/Hmmm Think this would be the route I'd choose if I ever went that far. Interesting debate this one. So what's the deal Wodj?

Kieran
21-11-2005, 11:56 PM
;) ;) ;) ;)

:inquisiti /Hmmm

Tell us.... Pretty please! /yes

enigma
21-11-2005, 11:56 PM
;) ;) ;) ;)

He is not talking an ultimate, he is talking full standalone!

AllBeItMine
22-11-2005, 12:12 AM
it is an interesting debate.

the way i see it, a piggy back system is fine if thats as far as you are going to go with your car. because you are basing your tuning capabilities on part of your car with a fixed limit - IE your ECU. So its good if you want a cheaper option and aren't looking for complete control.

the full blown programable ECU will be more expensive outlay to start with but once its installed and tuned, your only looking at a minimum charge on a dyno for an hour each time you want to push your car to the next level.

valmes
22-11-2005, 04:17 AM
Once again, before everybody jumps to MAP :) ...

Read this first, may be you will find this route less expensive and as much capable of a good tune as MAF-->MAP translators:
what is the limitation of the stock MAS? (http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=251433)
PS: 3000GT uses MAS/MAF similar to what we have... and btw Mellon does all his tuning with cheap, old, reliable e-manage Blue (if you stay with your MAS/MAF ... that thing will do fine).

The main advantage of the MAP ECU as I understand is its ability to fill out cels in output map(Hz at RPM&Psi) automatically... I think this could be taken of by a simple enough script (have no idea why e-manage guys didn't implement this feature into EMU), but it is not too much trouble as it is and can be done in couple of hours by hand.

Yet there are some advantages for EMU also... with one big disadvantages that some of them are not working yet /Hmmm and 44 wires to connect to your ECU... don't worry you wont need all of them, but still quite a difference from MAP ECUs 5 wires.

- Fuel cut removal
- Speed cut removal
- RPM limit removal (yet only fuel based)
- Ability to adjust fuel via Airflow map (MAF)
- Ability to switch over to simulated output (MAP) it will work of Greddy pressure sensor instead of you MAF input... or any other factory pressure sensor supported by e-manageU.
- Injectors scaling (Old flow and lag time vs new flow and lag time)
- Ability to directly control injectors to add or remove fuel
- Each injector can be adjusted individually
- Supporting maps for Acceleration enrichment, Anti-Stall map, Idle adjustment, Speed fuel corrections, Coolant and Intake temp. based fuel corrections...
- Ignition timing adjustment map
- Ignition acceleration map
- Individual cylinder Ignition adjustment map
- Two fuel&ignition maps can be switched directly on the e-manage box
- Auxiliary output
- Analog output
- Sub injectors channels. You can control NOS, water&alchy injections and so on.
- Built in "Launch Control" and "Flat Shift" for manuals and "A/T shift" ignition compensation for autos.
- Different WB devices can be logged and can even take control via A/F adjustment map to get you as close to your desired A/F ratios in the RPM vs load table.
- Built in logger that can record up to 8 parameters for up to 500 min. When connected to Laptop - you can record as many and as long as you want.
- Knock sensor logging (not as straight forward yet... "will be available in future software upgrades" - that’s what they say...)
- Real time timing logging (same as with knock sensor)

I am sure Greddy/Trust will work out most of the bugs and even add features to this unit with time (right now new versions of software are comming out every two weeks).

bradc
22-11-2005, 07:08 AM
Something to remember as well Dave is you have an AVC-R, HKS FCD, plus this, and I think you may have an emanage as well. Once you add the prices for all that together, it would probably be easier just to go for one box that replaces the lot.

Lets say you were starting from scratch again, would you simply go straight to a full ecu?

enigma
22-11-2005, 07:33 AM
Something to remember as well Dave is you have an AVC-R, HKS FCD, plus this, and I think you may have an emanage as well. Once you add the prices for all that together, it would probably be easier just to go for one box that replaces the lot.

Lets say you were starting from scratch again, would you simply go straight to a full ecu?

I will have 2 cars soon........................ :inquisiti

valmes
22-11-2005, 08:36 AM
Something to remember as well Dave is you have an AVC-R, HKS FCD, plus this, and I think you may have an emanage as well. Once you add the prices for all that together, it would probably be easier just to go for one box that replaces the lot.

Lets say you were starting from scratch again, would you simply go straight to a full ecu?

In my opinion full aftermarket ECU for a daily driver is not an easy nor a cheap route...
Stock ECU is perfectly capable of dealing with most issues and getting most out of your car, provided you have some means of altering things... and what most people are looking for anyway is more performance at WOT and not messing around with cruise, idle or partial load...

Stand alone is great once you HAVE the experience and clearly define your goals... but it is just too much costs and problems for a daily driver with mild upgrades...

On that note Autronic SM2 would be stand alone of my choice... but for now I am fine with EMU. It has more stuff that I currently need anyway...

enigma
22-11-2005, 09:20 AM
In my opinion full aftermarket ECU for a daily driver is not an easy nor a cheap route...
Stock ECU is perfectly capable of dealing with most issues and getting most out of your car, provided you have some means of altering things... and what most people are looking for anyway is more performance at WOT and not messing around with cruise, idle or partial load...

Stand alone is great once you HAVE the experience and clearly define your goals... but it is just too much costs and problems for a daily driver with mild upgrades...

On that note Autronic SM2 would be stand alone of my choice... but for now I am fine with EMU. It has more stuff that I currently need anyway...

What he said!

Mitsubishi spent millions developing the software for our ecu, and I dont care what anyone says you can not get a standalone ECU programmed to give the level of driveability and reliability over the entire working range of the engine in a couple of hours on a dyno. Sure you can get it to run and produce the numbers at WOT, you can even get it to run as a day to day car. BUT to do this you are looking at a lot of dyno time followed by a lot of road tuning, fine if you can do it yourself, but if you are paying someone it is not going to be cheap! Take a look at the features of the ultimate - just to visit every cell in every avaialble map would take you a good number of hours, let alone map them properly........but with the piggybacks you can alter as and when you feel like it. With full standalone you have many hours work before the bugger will even run! At the end of the day, none of us are pushing the factory ecu to the limits, nor do we know what those limits are. I am quite confident that even with an emanage blue you could push beyond 500BHP far in excess of what the output shaft can handle ;)

My emanage blue is only mapped for 95% and 100% throttle at the moment and the difference is huge. With my modifications I found about 70 BHP that went missing at the top end. I am sure that with some more fiddling and mid range tweaking I can improve response and maybe get a few more mpg....but I dont really need to. How many time do you boot it at 80% throttle? Not many, so the factory settings are adequate even if not ideal.

At the end of the day there is a certain Kudos about having full standalone - but it is reserved really for the more 'mental' enthusiasts with more money than they know what to do with!

Why spend x on a full standalone and tuning when you can spend a fraction and get results! It all comes down to cost in the end, If you can get xyzBHP using a $400 piggyback or get xyzBHP spending $2500 on a standalone and full tune - where is your money?

The piggyback systems offer a huge amount of flexibility for not much money, and as valmes said have far more features in them than even the most advanced members in the club can comprehend. BUT results can be acheived quickly and easily. How long did it take the 'pros' to tun You Sees car?? and at what cost?

In summary, piggybacks may not be ideal - but they more than serve the purpose of 99.9% of owners out there!

AllBeItMine
22-11-2005, 10:13 AM
its a good argument - but its flawed in a number of key places.

firstly - there are only a handfull of people i know who would be able to install and tune/fiddle with the likes of an emanage or map ecu or AVCR even "by themselves" and you are one of them. so buying one of these things "cheap" is still going require dyno time for most people to get them working

secondly for people who don't know what they are doing or have a go anyway and make a mistake, like valmes did by accidentally dialing in 28 pounds, you are going to blow up your engine - which will cost a lot more to repair than getting a pro to set it up intially in the first place.

and finally - getting a replacement ECU to run the car as a daily driver is far from impossible. in fact - cars like teh vr4 with shocking over fueling from factory would benefit. I have driven a few cars now with replacement ECU's including an evo 3 with an autronic ecu and it felt great.

now i am not completely disagreeing with you, if you are comfortable with your hertz and voltages and wiring something like this up, and if you have access to a decent wide band sensor, some logging and a rolling road/test track - go for it. but most dont - and its not necessarily a case of getting what you pay for, but it almost sums it up.

bradc
22-11-2005, 10:26 AM
Well with Uc's car once he took it to a real professional who knew what to do, it only took a week or so. I think a lot of it comes down to who is actually tuning it, and if they have any experiance with the car they are installing it to, as well as the ecu.

Now that Uc has had his car properly tuned, it is running great, I'm definately going to go full ecu, probably an Autronic SM2, it will let me upgrade basically as far as I want in the future, whether I go with mivec, td04's, or I can take the autronic out and put it into a completely differant car, it isn't a waste of money.

There are about 3 or 4 people around Auckland who are fairly experianced with Autronics, including Ralliart, Ohlsens Development, the people Uc took his car to, as well as the importers of Autronic, Edgell Automotive. I'm going to talk to all of them and see what they all say.

enigma
22-11-2005, 10:30 AM
its a good argument - but its flawed in a number of key places.

firstly - there are only a handfull of people i know who would be able to install and tune/fiddle with the likes of an emanage or map ecu or AVCR even "by themselves" and you are one of them. so buying one of these things "cheap" is still going require dyno time for most people to get them working

secondly for people who don't know what they are doing or have a go anyway and make a mistake, like valmes did by accidentally dialing in 28 pounds, you are going to blow up your engine - which will cost a lot more to repair than getting a pro to set it up intially in the first place.

and finally - getting a replacement ECU to run the car as a daily driver is far from impossible. in fact - cars like teh vr4 with shocking over fueling from factory would benefit. I have driven a few cars now with replacement ECU's including an evo 3 with an autronic ecu and it felt great.

now i am not completely disagreeing with you, if you are comfortable with your hertz and voltages and wiring something like this up, and if you have access to a decent wide band sensor, some logging and a rolling road/test track - go for it. but most dont - and its not necessarily a case of getting what you pay for, but it almost sums it up.

Fiddling with the AVCR and Emanage is not rocket science, sure it takes a bit of understanding but at the end of the day I am confident that MANY members that I have met in the UK could do their own tuning (SGHOM excluded ;)) A systematic approach, taking a small % at a time is relatively safe and will not yield disasterous results. With a full standalone you have nothing to start with and a far more likely to make the engine go pop because you can be multiple of percent from where you should be. The arguement that a dyno tuner wont kill your engine doesn't wash - it happens and usually its the customer that loses out as you cant PROVE it was the tuners fault!

Getting someone else to tune your car is an option - but where is the fun in that?!

So how much was the autronic conversion including set up?

valmes
22-11-2005, 11:41 AM
secondly for people who don't know what they are doing or have a go anyway and make a mistake, like valmes did by accidentally dialing in 28 pounds


Just to clear things up... Engine wasn't blown! In fact everything held up fine... no piston damage - nothing due to excess boost.

The person in charge of making sure everything is fine with the engine, didn't clean the oil pan (after the accident), so dirt and parts of damaged head cover were blocking oil lines and making sure nothing gets through oil filter. I didn’t feel like checking after a person... since those things seems to be obvious and logical... Well, that was my mistake!

That was the reason... engine had starved for oil for over 400km... Sad that it was caused by such a stupid mistake... I can only say one thing here - if you want it done right - do it yourself!

That happens frequently, when tuning, you can get spikes... or bad A/F ratios... engine starts knocking - you get to the bad spots and correct them. That what PROs do too... the only difference is they have experience to rely on and can predict some of the "bad spots" and go about tuning in a safer way than newbie’s.

I really can't relate it to "stand alones vs. piggyback" discussion... What was the point you were making?

With a piggy back you have less chances of going wrong since you can always roll back to factory settings... with stand alone - you can not.
With piggybacks you get a piggyback as an adjustment tool and thousands of hours invested into development of stock ECU.
What are the benefits you are getting out of "stand alone system"? I mean for our non-extreme cases (seems like most of VR-4 are around 300-350 mark... with very few nitro monsters :) )



if you are comfortable with your hertz and voltages and wiring something like this up, and if you have access to a decent wide band sensor, some logging and a rolling road/test track - go for it. but most dont - and its not necessarily a case of getting what you pay for, but it almost sums it up.

With stand alones you have to be comfortable with hertz and voltages and wiring something up... if you don't I would question the very idea of going stand alone. As Dave said with piggybacks you have choices of either making a small adjustments at a time and learning from what you are doing or going to pros who can make it for you... or even not touching anything and staying stock.

I don't know if you have similar saying, but in Russian we say something like: "Why would you kill a bird(small one... /Hmmm ) with a canon?"

pezza
22-11-2005, 12:11 PM
I would have to agree with the piggy back route for those interested and LEARNING about tuning and the dependance of parameters which change how the car behaves..

I have had very limited experience or exposure to tuning so the idea is, as SGHOM has been stating recently, is to buy a cheap car to *play* with it. As I would like to learn about tuning, it stands to reason, for me, that a piggy back route such as e-manage would provide the perfect platform; Only changing certain and/or minimal aspects in small steps and having the ability to revert back to stock settings (if the egnine has not been savaged). The e-manage (BLUE/ULTIMATE) with ancillaries should provide the ability to adjust / monitor boost, fuelling, induction temps/pressure, timings and even operate Nitrous etc :evil2: ) without excessive outlay...

AllBeItMine
22-11-2005, 06:33 PM
ah well - i will have to agree to disagree with most of you, as fleetwood mac would say - you can go your own way.

Kenneth
22-11-2005, 07:55 PM
How about we just wait and see how it goes and then form an un-biased opinion? Then we actually gain some knowledge and benefit.

instead of always saying "Why do you want to do THAT?" why cant we just say "Cool, good luck and lets see how it goes?"


The reason I am interested in a MAP ECU is because I want to be able to remove it and gain full standard operation within an hour. Why? Because I have 2 years of mechanical insurance left but want to be able to tune my fuel mixtures.

The map ECU is around the same price as a SAFC from what I have seen, with the added benefit of being able to remove the MAF.

Why remove the MAF? because its a restriction. restriction = less efficient. but its not just that, its also restrictive because you have join your 2 intakes and then run the wires back from the MAF. you also need all your piping to be reasonably well sealed. blow off a hose and you stop. that wont happen with map, you just have to be careful and realise your wastegates will never open if you load the engine up too much.

Goodbye VTA dump valve problems.


Anyway... cheers Dave :thumbsup:
will be getting one myself... maybe we can compare notes ;)

Do you have an ETA on yours?

enigma
22-11-2005, 08:16 PM
Anyway... cheers Dave :thumbsup:
will be getting one myself... maybe we can compare notes ;)

Do you have an ETA on yours?

about a week! I will run it with the emanage, as it will learn all the setting I have programmed in to the emanage.....then I can remove the emanage and see how it behaves, then I can remove the MAF and all its plumbing and tweak it here and there!

Notes will be made freely avaialble.......well to members of course! ;)

AllBeItMine
22-11-2005, 09:19 PM
yeap. i agree with you kenneth - we were just having a conversation on the pros and cons is all. i know a little bit about standalone stuff and dave brings his experience with piggy back stuff into the thread so anybody reading this who is about to make the same decisions dave and I have will be able to form their own opininons

at the moment each of us is strongly advocating their own choices... which makes sense really or we probably would have chosen something else!

and i don't have a problem with posting up the results and any supporting info/tuning specs once i have my stuff done. My thread on the update on my car is still being updated on a daily basis and it will stay that way till the car is finished.

Kieran
22-11-2005, 10:14 PM
Slightly off topic, but it's great the way people are putting their opinions across without gettting all /Handbag /Handbag about it, like you see on so many other sites.

I am still deciding my strategy, so this all makes great reading - especially because there's advocates of both sides. /yes

marmel31
22-11-2005, 11:32 PM
Slightly off topic, but it's great the way people are putting their opinions across without gettting all /Handbag /Handbag about it, like you see on so many other sites.

I am still deciding my strategy, so this all makes great reading - especially because there's advocates of both sides. /yes

I'm waiting in anticipation for Kieran to start a group hug thread :leer:

Kieran
22-11-2005, 11:35 PM
I'm waiting in anticipation for Kieran to start a group hug thread :leer:

/Nuuu /haz

The Vee
22-11-2005, 11:52 PM
TBH there seems to be a lot of sound comments from both camps. It is all made a little harder, for my mind, on the stand alone front, trying to get some figures to start with. I can't even get the valve timing out of Mitsi for the VR4. I doubt they would give much more on the ECU! Think the E manage etc would probably be the easier option and as previously said should cope with the modding being done by most. Now, if you're going to start changing cams, compressions and the like, then........................

AllBeItMine
23-11-2005, 01:12 AM
TBH there seems to be a lot of sound comments from both camps. It is all made a little harder, for my mind, on the stand alone front, trying to get some figures to start with. I can't even get the valve timing out of Mitsi for the VR4. I doubt they would give much more on the ECU! Think the E manage etc would probably be the easier option and as previously said should cope with the modding being done by most. Now, if you're going to start changing cams, compressions and the like, then........................


well the first thing tuners do is setup a base map. obviously the car would run like crap at WOT with just a base map but if it is at all possible to get a export/matrix of the rpm/load sites out of the ecu when i get mine done, i will post it up... will be a bit different for each car, and possibly more different for me as i will have the bigger turbos on there - but its still valuable i guess.

The Vee
23-11-2005, 01:21 AM
well the first thing tuners do is setup a base map. obviously the car would run like crap at WOT with just a base map but if it is at all possible to get a export/matrix of the rpm/load sites out of the ecu when i get mine done, i will post it up... will be a bit different for each car, and possibly more different for me as i will have the bigger turbos on there - but its still valuable i guess.

:thumbsup:

valmes
23-11-2005, 03:29 AM
On 3S they see same things - most standalone people make same power numbers as piggyback guys and there are people who reverted back to stock ECU+piggyback from standalone due to number of reasons.
So all I am saying is it is not an easy nor a cheap way to go about.

UC is the one who tried that path... 7 months, 190kw at the wheels... was it worth it?
If he only required split intake and ability to adjust fuel - he could have bought MAP ECU with 5 wires and self learning function... lean things out a bit and be done with it... for 399$ and a couple weeks (at most... but I think you can say hours instead) of tweaking.

Of course stand alone ECU is expandable. That means if you eventually upgrade your turbos/injectors etc. you can buy more dyno time and re-tune it.
... However same thing applies to piggybacks.

Of course its up to you to decide what you want to do with your money!
...and it will be an interesting reading too! :thumbsup:

PS: nothing personal… I just used to research this topic for long hours/days/weeks/months before I finally decided what path to take… so kind of feels important to share my thoughts on this one.

Kenneth
23-11-2005, 07:59 PM
ahem....
"Thanks for your order Kenneth.

The funds are showing in our account so we will same day courier the unit tomorrow.

Please find attached an invoice for your records and we thank you for your prompt payment.

Enjoy the unit!

Regards
Peter"

:smug:

Wodjno
23-11-2005, 08:02 PM
ahem....
"Thanks for your order Kenneth.

The funds are showing in our account so we will same day courier the unit tomorrow.

Please find attached an invoice for your records and we thank you for your prompt payment.

Enjoy the unit!

Regards
Peter"

:smug:


:inquisiti

Kenneth
23-11-2005, 08:33 PM
Here is the MAP ECU manual for anyone interested in having a quick look

Kenneth
26-11-2005, 09:46 AM
Unit recieved and installed in "learn" mode. pics and details to follow.

Kenneth
26-11-2005, 11:26 PM
some poor quality pics from my phone...

First is the box it all came in... not as big as I expected, but size doesn't matter rigt? /Hmmm

Second is all the bits that come in the box. In the centre of the wiring harness loop you can see the air temp sensor. That wiring harness is probably close on 2M long. I only used maybe 300mm of that for the MAP-ECU.

Third picture is of the diagram (got from one of the threads here) that I used to cut into the VR-4 wiring loom.

There are some better pics, just waiting for my mate to get them off his camera for me.

Kenneth
27-11-2005, 12:26 AM
1) Cutting the loom. Can see some of the wires cut, the other ends have a square 4 pin plug attached!

2) 2 Sub harnesses. Made with the spare wire from the MAP-ECU harness. These will plug into the VR-4 loom and allow me to plug the MAP-ECU into the loom. (and un-plug if nessecary)

I sort of did more work than nessecary here, could have done it all in one 9-way plug, but I thought that could be a bit bulky.

The 4-way is +12, Ground, TPS and RPM. I think rpm is actually igniter signal from all ignitions, you have to divide it by 6 to get real RPM.

The 3-way is Air flow signal, Barometer and air temp. This harness is a good one.

You cant see the MAP-ECU harness, but it has 1x4-way and 2x2 way plugs. the 4-way is as above, the 2 ways are air-flow and baro. in learn mode, I have the IN signals attached. To move to normal operation, all I need to do is un-plug the 2 way and attach it to the second 2 way on the MAP-ECU harness.

3) The 2 sub harnesses wired into the loom.

4) All hooked up, set up in learn mode and about to go for a test run.

5) me looking a bit worse for wear, but happy the car is running and about to go for a spin. :thumbsup:

Got back from the test run, hooked it back up (serial cable visible in pic 4) and found we had some data! woohoo :smug:

Now gotta hook up the wideband and airtemp sensor. cant do this weekend because i have to work... should have been at work on sat too. but... work or MAP-ECU install... /Hmmm

bradc
27-11-2005, 02:12 AM
So Kenneth, are you going to run an airfilter to each turbo like Uc has on his car, or are you just going to remove the MAF at this stage?

Kenneth
27-11-2005, 02:44 AM
So Kenneth, are you going to run an airfilter to each turbo like Uc has on his car, or are you just going to remove the MAF at this stage?

When the MAP-ECU is configured ill just disconnect the MAF and run it like that for a while.

Eventually I want to run seperate pipes, but I doubt ill have 2 seperate filters... probably have an airbox of some sort and use my standard ralliart foam filter. I have a nicely positioned air inlet on the bumper which I hope will provide some nice cool ram-air ;)

enigma
28-11-2005, 01:46 PM
Mine has now arrived :evil2:

Just need to get it wired in for learn mode now and forget about it for a few weeks!

Quail
29-11-2005, 10:31 PM
Any results yet laddies?

enigma
29-11-2005, 10:33 PM
Any results yet laddies?

You think I am going out in the snow or the dark to fit it? :vogel:

I will have a look at the weekend, but I need to buy a couple of metres of vacuum hose.

Kenneth
29-11-2005, 10:37 PM
mine in auto-learn mode. will stay that way for a little while.

Dave: I'll save and post some maps up soon. not much of the map is actuallly getting data in it though... I don't know squat about filling maps in, so might ask you a few questions if thats ok with you!

enigma
30-11-2005, 07:23 AM
mine in auto-learn mode. will stay that way for a little while.

Dave: I'll save and post some maps up soon. not much of the map is actuallly getting data in it though... I don't know squat about filling maps in, so might ask you a few questions if thats ok with you!

Not a problem!

You need to drive a bit differently to normal to get some of the hard to reach areas - even play with your boost settings.

My plan was to drive at 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% and 100% throttle from 2000rpm to the redline in 3rd gear. This on top of any normal driving. I was also going to do it with the boost controller off (0.5 bar) with it in low boost (0.7 bar) and in high boost (0.9 bar). I was then going to overboost briefly to get the top of the map sorted. :inquisiti

Kenneth
30-11-2005, 07:31 AM
Not a problem!

You need to drive a bit differently to normal to get some of the hard to reach areas - even play with your boost settings.

My plan was to drive at 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% and 100% throttle from 2000rpm to the redline in 3rd gear. This on top of any normal driving. I was also going to do it with the boost controller off (0.5 bar) with it in low boost (0.7 bar) and in high boost (0.9 bar). I was then going to overboost briefly to get the top of the map sorted. :inquisiti

hmmm... don't have a boost controller... :P
will have a looksee. I'll get my mate to use follow-me mode and check out what is happening on the map.

michaeli
12-12-2005, 09:04 PM
any joy with this guys? :inquisiti

Kenneth
12-12-2005, 09:14 PM
any joy with this guys? :inquisiti

Joy? not as such.

It's still in learn mode. I have an issue with voltage references in my wideband O2 controller which means I cant properly log the AFR to start tuning.

will have to check the O2 controller and play with the ground points and stuff. Then time to start logging :)

Kenneth
15-12-2005, 04:54 AM
spot the issues with this map. I would expect the problem/solution should be easy to figure out from there :thumbsup:

Anyway, will have to re-set the map and start again...

ps: values in the boxes are Hz values from the MAF sensor

Oh, and you might need to know that in "learn mode" the MAP-ECU checks the Hz signal against pressure/rpm and stores it IF the current cell is 0.

so, you put all the cells to 0 and it records what is happening. that is what has happened for all the values in the grid.

enigma
15-12-2005, 08:57 AM
Apart from the fact you have only explored half the map, there doesn't seem to be much up. 10psi max is not great and you haven't been caning it to the redline. But you could work from that!

enigma
15-12-2005, 10:16 AM
looking again, your HZ values are very low? Typically I am getting 1600Hz and I am having to cut it back to prevent fuel cut..............

Kenneth
15-12-2005, 08:29 PM
Hint: check out the Hz values in the 3500rpm column

enigma
15-12-2005, 11:05 PM
And?

Kenneth
15-12-2005, 11:28 PM
I have airflow spikes. where airflow is much larger at a pressure than at the next pressure point.
These are also only at low pressure, ie throttle closed.
The 3500rpm column goes 75Hz, 341Hz, 186Hz at -10psi, -7.5psi and -5psi respectively.

So, my assumption is that the VTA BOV is still flowing air when I let off the throttle and the MAP-ECU has at that point gone through a zero value cell and marked the air flow.

Kenneth
23-12-2005, 10:54 AM
airflow maps attached.
the incomplete one is mine. far from complete and still getting airflow spikes but not as big with recirc bov by the look of it. possibly i could zero them again and see what happens.

have also attached a map from an evo2 that comes with the software. it looks reasonably compatible, could possibly just go off that for base values.

bernmc
19-05-2006, 05:27 PM
Any updates on this Kenneth?

Kenneth
21-05-2006, 12:05 AM
Any updates on this Kenneth?

um... waiting for fuel regulator and intercooler/intake piping.

To be honest, there is little point in using this to control fueling at present as my fueling is pretty close to spot on!

Eurospec
23-05-2006, 01:28 PM
I'm a big fan of the MAP ECU. There is a UK supplier of these units for any of you guys who are interested. On GTO's the results are absolutely phenominal.

Cheers,

Ben.

Kieran
23-05-2006, 07:59 PM
I'm a big fan of the MAP ECU. There is a UK supplier of these units for any of you guys who are interested. On GTO's the results are absolutely phenominal..

Interesting..... Define phenominal?....:inquisiti

Eurospec
24-05-2006, 01:03 AM
Over a hundred bhp, on the dyno!

A modified gto (boost control, larger injectors etc) went from 321bhp on an safc to 425bhp on the MAP ECU.

You have to remember a gto is at the limit of std injectors when it comes from the factory, so the first thing we have to do is put bigger injectors in!

The VKF represents a large restriction in the intake. You can use things like Arc2 to get around it, but it isnt as good as its a bit agricultural- dont get me wrong it does the trick however! I have used safc, arc2, you name it and this season i will run MAP ECU and bin the maf alltogether.

Cheers,

Ben.

bradc
24-05-2006, 01:36 AM
That is the sort of thing that depends on the car, ours will never gain that much because the turbos are a huge restriction. I think removing the MAF won't do a huge amount with stock turbos, but is definately needed if you upgrade the turbos.

ako
24-05-2006, 02:39 AM
Why does everyone see the AFM as a restriction? Fair enough that you're gaining power from installing the MAP ECU - but you'd also expect to gain power from a normal ECU being tuned.

End of the day you still don't have ignition control - though the cost is hard to argue with.

bradc
24-05-2006, 03:39 AM
The maf is a bit of a restriction, but you're right, it isn't much of a restriction, all the stock turbo piping is a much bigger restriction, and the turbos are too small too

bernmc
24-05-2006, 08:04 AM
I'm a big fan of the MAP ECU. There is a UK supplier of these units for any of you guys who are interested. On GTO's the results are absolutely phenominal.

Cheers,

Ben.

Ben, who does these in the UK then?

bradc
24-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Bern, just remember they are a basic ecu and don't do the things other ecu's do like ignition as ako said.

Just stick with a normal piggy back :)

Kenneth
24-05-2006, 10:01 AM
dont be so hasty about chucking out the idea of a MAP ECU. no one (unless Dave has his all sorted) has really got one going well on our beasts yet, so its early days.

Dont forget that it also has other benefits, like not caring about VTA dump valves, blown turbo pipes etc. One nice thing about MAP too is that it doesn't care what the air looks like. The VKF air flow sensor needs to have the air straightened, if you start doing odd intake (cold air intakes with bends etc) designs you screw it up and end up having fuel problems.

valmes
24-05-2006, 11:46 AM
Although stock MAF is a restriction, it is not as important for a stock car.

There is a Stealth that runs hacked MAF into 11 sec... not bad for a MAF car!

MAP ECU stands out for ability to get rid of the MAF for cheap, but what gains are to be had from using MAP?

Of course it lets you take out any restrictions on the intake side of turbos (MAF itself and plastic turbo pipes)! However, most gains come from the fact that you can actually change your AF ratio at different RPMs and load points, fine tune your fuel curve, where on a stock car you can't do that...

SAFCI&II*, e-manage Blue*&Ultimate, MAP ECU, ARC2, MAFT Pro, Unichip* (it is not a true piggyback since you can’t tune it yourself if I’m not mistaken, but still works on the same principle) … they are all good… ;)

*can’t simulate MAF and work from a MAP sensor

bradc
24-05-2006, 12:07 PM
Kenneth is right about map having the advantage of not caring what the air 'looks like', lots of people with pod filters have problems with their AFR's, this is probably the main reason why.

I think a very important thing to do with these cars is to stop the overfueling problem they have, and if you can remove the maf at the same time, you may as well do it.

enigma
23-11-2006, 06:11 PM
MAP ECU stands out for ability to get rid of the MAF for cheap, but what gains are to be had from using MAP?



It makes plubming in new custom turbos a whole lot easier, or even the transition to single..........