Single Turbo Conversion

[borgan]

The bits have been on a shelf for too long so I've taken the car off the road for a while

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7726&stc=1

[borgan]

1st time I've posted pics and I've messed it up!!!!

That's as far as the install has got to. Still a long way to go. Pipes from the manifold need re-doing and the plenum is a spare. As it stands I've got a rough idea of how it's going to end up.
Inlet will be moved to o/s of car. Space is quite tight. It looks like that is where the TB will have to go. Not sure of the effects of having the TB that far away from the plenum. Will I get more lag or will it just have the effect of increasing the plenum size. FTOLTD has his TB quite far from plenum and as far as I'm aware lag hasn't been too much of a concer. I'll be grateful for any comments.

[Kieran]

Thanks for sharing your progress!! What turbo have you gone for? And what is your end goal? Is it, smooth and tractable, but with bigger lungs, or is it laggy-but-nutter fast on boost?

I see you've attached a pipe to the inlet plenum on the other side.... was this DIY alloy welding or did you have it done for you?

[borgan]

I'm paying for the welding. As I said earlier, plenum is a spare one and inlet into it isn't finished article. At the moment it just gives me an idea of where can i locate the throttle body. Space is very tight on that side and it looks like the throttle body will have to go by the power steering reservoir. That's a fair distance from the plenum inlet, possibly too far.

Obviously I'm expecting more lag but not so much that it makes driving it a pain. The std turbos boost so quickly perhaps even too quickly. When I specced up the turbo I requested a fast spooling turbo that would handle around 450hp and was relatively cheap. Bought the turbo about 10 months ago and can't remember exact housing sizes. a variant of a t3/t4 turbo is all i can remember right now.

The good thing is that once install is complete swapping over a turbo is a lot lot easier than it was. If performance of turbo not to my liking, and with prices of Garrett turbos even lower now, there's a lot to choose from.

[bradc]

So you are running the compressed air from the turbo down to an intercooler on the right side, then running the air on the left side of the car up to the throttle body? Smart way to do it, it looks like there is still enough room on the right hand side for a big airfilter as well.

I would have thought there would have been enough room right next to the plenum because that is where the pipe from the back turbo normally runs, and you shouldn't have too much of a problem there.

What ECU are you going to run?

[bradc]

Another thought, are you using the stock manifolds, or did you have something made up?

[borgan]

I got the idea for moving throttle body over from Danny's (FTOLTD) conversion.
Although the throttle body isn't huge the ancillaries add to the bulkiness. If attached to the plenum the turn would be too tight. Also, looking at other plenums, they all have at least a 1 inch gap from the inlet to the first runner. Not sure whether it has to be designed this way to aid even air distribution to the runners.
The pipes run from the std manifolds. I had toyed with Dave's suggestion of using a rear manifold at the front so that both pipes were attached to the top but didn't want the aggro of inserting a couple of threads into the head. The ports match but the back and front aren't totally identical.
I haven't made my mind up about which way to tune it yet. At the moment I'm running a Unichip but can't get the s/ware which makes it bit restrictive. Have considered a digital pulse adjuster (available from Autospeed.com.au) for the fuelling and getting a tuner to adjust timing. Probably the cheapest option and this will allow me to change injectors and run a 2nd air filter through a pipe that would branch into a pipe just after the MAF (article in Autospeed). I'm just not too happy about having to visit a dyno every time a further mod is added.
I could switch to e-manage and use the digital pulse adjuster for the fuelling and the e-manage for the timing or follow Dave and Kenneth's path and use the MAF removal box. Or go with either a DTA/Autronic ECU.
Initially, I'll switch off the e-boost boost controller and see how it runs with the std injectors and MAF before making a decision.

[enigma]

Concerned about the fitment of the rear manifold on the front now :(

I am sure I can sort something out.......... :embarasse

[zentac]

Concerned about the fitment of the rear manifold on the front now :(

I am sure I can sort something out.......... :embarasse

Doesn`t really matter we can plum off a normal front one, just means more bending.

[enigma]

Doesn`t really matter we can plum off a normal front one, just means more bending.

Got Richs manifolds today - 2 10mm holes in the exhaust manifold will do the job! :leer: :thumbsup:

Pics to follow!

[AllBeItMine]

yeap - you will need to change the alignment of 2 of the bolt holes. but not a major if you have something that can drill a decent hole through cast iron

[enigma]

Got Richs manifolds today - 2 10mm holes in the exhaust manifold will do the job! :leer: :thumbsup:

Pics to follow!

In fact - scratch that, the holes are identical!!!!

:thumbsup:

[enigma]

I think its the holes I have ringed in red that have caused confusion - the are not symetrically spaced, but they are the same on both manifolds!

[Kieran]

Now you've got a set of manifolds, how long before you take a template of the mating side in order to get some 'BDA custom manifolds for normal VR4 owners'?? /Hmmm

[enigma]

Now you've got a set of manifolds, how long before you take a template of the mating side in order to get some 'BDA custom manifolds for normal VR4 owners'?? /Hmmm

Custom manifolds would be very tricky, and not worth the effort! It would involve custom downpipes as well as you would have to mover the turbos, and then you would have to releive the bulkhead etc etc etc.

[-LegnumVR4-]

Just looking at the photos, are u worried about the amount of heat that will be coming off the pipe work? Wiring loom and other hoses may get a bit toasted??

[borgan]

Ceramic coating for pipework, Heatshield(s)and thermowrap to cover g'box, loom and turbo. Also, moving inlet to the plenum to o/s takes away a lot of the potential heat probs there.
Apologise for the red herring with the ex manifolds. I just placed them facing each other and the lack of symmetry caught me out!!!!!!

[enigma]

Apologise for the red herring with the ex manifolds. I just placed them facing each other and the lack of symmetry caught me out!!!!!!

I did the same thing last night and came to the same conclusion - then I thought.........'ang on ;)

Looks like we are good to go! :thumbsup:

[AllBeItMine]

Custom manifolds would be very tricky, and not worth the effort! It would involve custom downpipes as well as you would have to mover the turbos, and then you would have to releive the bulkhead etc etc etc.

custom manifolds aren't that tricky... even if its a simple 3 into 1 to get you started in teh right place.

check out my update thread and see what i did - and i haven't welded anything ever before (and it shows) but they should work alright :thumbsup:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137

[Quail]

custom manifolds aren't that tricky... even if its a simple 3 into 1 to get you started in teh right place.

check out my update thread and see what i did - and i haven't welded anything ever before (and it shows) but they should work alright :thumbsup:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137

Nice DIY attempt; Id get em coated in matt black engine paint to hide the welds?

[enigma]

custom manifolds aren't that tricky... even if its a simple 3 into 1 to get you started in teh right place.

check out my update thread and see what i did - and i haven't welded anything ever before (and it shows) but they should work alright :thumbsup:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137

To get them right is tricky! The ones we have work so there isn't any real point changing them at this stage!

I have made many manifolds in the past - but at the end of the day, if it aint broke, dont fix it ;)

This way will provide a quick and easy way of getting up and running, but wont mean they cant be changed as and when they need to be!

[Kieran]

...but at the end of the day, if it aint broke, dont fix it ;)

My god.... Never thought I'd ever hear/see Dave say that!!! :inquisiti

[enigma]

My god.... Never thought I'd ever hear/see Dave say that!!! :inquisiti

If it is functional and serves its purpose - why change it?

The trouble with making your own manifolds is not what you can see, its what you cant see. If you weld a bunch of tubes together with a mig welder - how smooth is the passage of air to the turbo going to be? /Hmmm

If it is required - as in a twin turbo upgrade, then so be it...............but if its not............ :leer:

[AllBeItMine]

yeap. that was what i was thinking off as i was making it - keeping the inside looking good. and it does considering. those little air grinders are great tools and the inside of the manifold is nice and smooth.

if you have one - you should take it to the stock manifolds and open up the flange a bit. you can take that rim/lip off the inside of it and bring out the diameter a bit more.

[borgan]

Slowly slowly getting there. Time permitting should be able to test out before the new year. If all ok then I can get bits ceramic coated.

Wastegate plumbing on a Y branch. Wastegate still to be attached and outlet from wastgate still needs plumbing into the downpipe.


The downpipe is done. Apart from wastegate feed and ceramic coating!!!!

Modifications to the inlet still have some way to go.

[Gly]

did this ever get finished?

[Turbo2004]

Very interesting. You project work?

[zentac]

looks very similar to mine, Ive just turned the intake rounds as well

[Paul C]

looks like the cables will get cooked by turbo and possibly the bonnet paint may burn off.

[borgan]

Other commitments have meant that, although up and running , there are still teething problems. The car has pretty much sat for the last 18 months. Replacing the silicone hose going to the turbo inlet for an alloy bend with a stub attachment, allowing me to recirculate the bov, should cure stalling issues. A re-map of the unichip to take full advantage of the power potential. At the moment with boost controller settings at zero, 11psi is reached fairly quickly. The car starts to boost just past 2000rpm. Wiring still intact as is bonnet paint but it would be beneficial to get a vented bonnet and tidy up the wiring.

18900

18901

18902

18903

[bradc]

looks good, how well does it run?

[DefeXion]

looks better than good. 10bux for a ride pls :D

[Turbo2004]

Beautifully. You will put the turbo of the biger size? Fuel long adjusted? Looking very pretty. How you think e-manage adjusted fuel and ignition or not???

[mpau009]

Hi Borgan, thats a cool project:afro: You make it look so simple:thinking: :baby:

Iv got a couple of questions i hope you can help with tho.

How come you decided to route the outlet from the turbo up and through the battery box location? I was thinking that it could just go straight down and bend into the intercooler. Was the radius too tight, or a clearance thing, or is it just easier? Trying to get my head around a single turbo conversion.

Since i wouldnt need the MAF, I was thinking the inlet side of the turbo could just come out with a 90 degree bend and have my filter where the battery box was? And the outlet would go below it around the gearbox and down.

Is your car tiptronic or manual?

Also, did you have to cut any of the loom to move it, or did you just reroute it?

Cheers,
Mike.

[zentac]

Other commitments have meant that, although up and running , there are still teething problems. The car has pretty much sat for the last 18 months. Replacing the silicone hose going to the turbo inlet for an alloy bend with a stub attachment, allowing me to recirculate the bov, should cure stalling issues. A re-map of the unichip to take full advantage of the power potential. At the moment with boost controller settings at zero, 11psi is reached fairly quickly. The car starts to boost just past 2000rpm. Wiring still intact as is bonnet paint but it would be beneficial to get a vented bonnet and tidy up the wiring.

I had a similar problem with mine stalling, you dont need to modify the dump valve its all to do with the amount of fuel your putting in when the revs drop off. Theres an actual setting for it on the SAFC (iirc) What fuel computer are you using?

[borgan]

Mike, my car is a tiptronic, the loom has been extended and I have tried to avoid tight bends as they effect flow. Even if I didn't have a maf I would still have my air filter just behind the headlight so that it could get a good flow of cold air going to it. Don't know if you've noticed but I have a cold air feed coming through the headlight.

Richard, at the mo I'm using a unichip for fuelling. In hindsight a poor decision.
I've tried using a eids to prevent stalling but when cold the car runs like... not very well. I could install a switch so once the car is warm I switch to the eids but ideally I'd like to avoid having too may piggyback devices.

[mpau009]

Mike, my car is a tiptronic, the loom has been extended and I have tried to avoid tight bends as they effect flow.

Ahh, tiptronic that might be why, it seems like the manual has a whole heap more room towards the front of that part of the engine bay:thinking:

Was extending the loom a huge mission, or just a bit labour intensive? I would be really greatful if you could post any close ups of that side of the job/notworthy

Also, were there any other major/minor hurdles you haddnt expected, other than the teething issues you're having now? I'm guessing that intake manifold switch-around would have taken some thought and planning to get right..

I was wondering how close the 3000gt VR-4 manifold would be compared to ours, if you knew?

[borgan]

The wiring to the throttle body needed extending, fairly straightforward.
Danny from w.australia (posts on here as ftoltd) did a similar conversion to zentac (vr4 into fto) and he moved his throttle body to the o/s. I kind of followed his lead. I got a welder to do the necessary (capping off one end and opening up the other). Fitting the throttle body was tight. I've had to place it a fair way from the inlet and it now sits almost upside down. I'm not sure if a manual throttle body is less bulky.
To be honest it's a relatively straightforward conversion. I had more problems when i initially chose to modify the original turbos as they kept failing.

[Gly]

does your have Traction controll??

coz that makes the TB, about 2 as big as the manual one.
theres quite abit of added bits added to the TB for the T/C

[borgan]

yes it has t/c

[Kieran]

I had more problems when i initially chose to modify the original turbos as they kept failing.

What did you do to the original turbos?

[Gly]

also what single turbo have you gone with? (size?/specs? etc.)

[borgan]

iirc the fins are clipped on 1 side & a 13 sized wheel used on other side. The nut holding the shaft kept spinning off. Twice on the front turbo and once on the rear. Each removal of the turbos was too labour intensive. That's why I chose the single turbo route. Once installed it's a lot easier to swap turbos over.

The turbo size (iirc) is a t3/t04b hybrid sourced from Canada. Very cheap at the time but probably not now.

[Kieran]

Borgan - Did clipping & hybridising the turbos make much difference?

[borgan]

Difference in spool hardly noticeable, definitely pulled harder through the rev range. I didn't fully exploit the increased flow as Owen Developments (re-tuned the unichip) weren't convinced the shaft was strong enough to cope with the increased flow. They were right!!! I still have the dyno sheets somewhere.
There was a significant increase in torque and hp from my previous run at Owen Developments.
At the time I didn't believe that there was space to put in larger turbos which is why I upgraded the originals. Others since have proved me wrong. From my experience, if you're after a car that pulls right the way to the limiter and want to keep twins choose different turbos. Modifying the originals is grief.

[Turbo_Steve]

Are you still having stalling problems?

Your MAF is extremely close to the turbo inlet, which means it is "seeing" a continual venturi (i.e. the wire isn't being cooled evenly) which is probably causing it to misread slightly. When you shut the throttle, the turbos spin is massively reduced collapsing the venturi, which means the MAF either suddenly reads increased air density and overfuels, (stall) or will lose the high speed air flowing over it into a more static mass, and to compensate for the sudden change will underfuel, (stall).

Have experienced this on a number of cars with MAF so close to the turbo inlet.
Also makes for a "juddery" ride as every throttle input results in complicated MAF readings which the ECU struggles to make sense of.

[mpau009]

Hi Borgan, I see you and valmes have both opted to stick the throttle body in the space between half way down on the cambelt side. I thought i was going to be able to rotate it to make it work closer up, its friggin close but it will foul the strutbrace..

Soooo my question is, what did you do with the dipstick to clear that space up? Does it just unbolt or something? Also, what do you do to check the oil level now.

[Kenneth]

Hi Borgan, I see you and valmes have both opted to stick the throttle body in the space between half way down on the cambelt side. I thought i was going to be able to rotate it to make it work closer up, its friggin close but it will foul the strutbrace..

Soooo my question is, what did you do with the dipstick to clear that space up? Does it just unbolt or something? Also, what do you do to check the oil level now.

The dipstick I think is held in by 1 bolt to stop it coming loose, but other than that it just has an o-ring seal to stop it leaking and can just pull out. If you want a closer look, come over and take a look at the engine in my garage :)

[mpau009]

The dipstick I think is held in by 1 bolt to stop it coming loose, but other than that it just has an o-ring seal to stop it leaking and can just pull out. If you want a closer look, come over and take a look at the engine in my garage :)

Thanks Ken, i thought it might be. How would i check the oil level with it gone though? Is there somewhere else i can move it to:thinking: I see Borgan just moved it back slightly, but from the looks of it, you would need to take the intake manifold off to check the oil level...

[Kenneth]

Thanks Ken, i thought it might be. How would i check the oil level with it gone though? Is there somewhere else i can move it to:thinking: I see Borgan just moved it back slightly, but from the looks of it, you would need to take the intake manifold off to check the oil level...

Take the dipstick out, note how far the dipstick protrudes out (or how far from) the bottom of the tube.

Re-bend the tube (or make a new one) making sure the above measurement is the same, and then you can route it the way you want.

You may get away with just gently bending the dipstick tube, depending on how much you need to bend it of course.