Help! Total brake failure!

[HowieP]

Firstly, a big hi to all in the club, just discovered it this evening while searching for information. My Legnum suffered total brake failure about 18 months ago and despite many valiant (non dealer) attempts my trade friends have been unable to rectify the fault beyond fitting a new servo. The car now has the ABS working permanently if the fuse is fitted, if not it brakes normally but of course, will not pass an MOT test. I have an urgent need to use the car again so I would be most grateful for any help with a solution, who can/where/things to try, anything will be a move back to a decent drive. Many thanks in advance.

[Kieran]

Sounds like one of the wheel sensors is playing up, or the ABS control unit is knackered....

Actually, I wonder, thinking about it - is yours affected by the ABS/ASC recall? It normally causes total brake loss (Nitrogen leaks into the brake lines) but you never know....

Go here:

http://recall.mitsubishi-motors.co.jp/Recall/resultrecallstatus.do

It's all in Japanese but you can babelfish it - Put in your chassis number and click the button - See if that gives any clues.

[Physician]

My exact thoughts Kieran - before I read your reply.

Almost certain to be the recall fault.

[HowieP]

Thanks for your suggestions, not a computer expert so having trouble "Babelfishing" but seems my car has missed 4 recalls if I'm correctly interpreting the dates which show up on the co.jp site. Now to find out what needs to be done...! Can't grasp the Nitrogen ingress though, where from? Any suggestions as to specialists who can fix the problems? Thanks again for responding. Howard.

[Physician]

Hi again Howie,

Here is a translation of the recall data:

Reason for Recall
Vehicle behavior control operation of brakes (active stability control system: ASC) Putting, when you take in ASC hydraulic powerpack and because there are some where durability of the diaphragm inside the gas charging type accumulator which is attached is insufficient, you continue use in that way state, there are times when the enclosure gas inside the accumulator mixes in the brake fluid, at the time of brake pedal operation when the feeling where control force is not transmitted does, it is worst, there is a possibility damping force decreasing.

Corrective Action
All vehicle, the constitution system which includes the ASC hydraulic powerpack which uses the particular accumulator is replaced the measure item (the system which does not use the gas charging type accumulator) with.

Affected Chassis (numbers)
Galant
EC5A-0000015 - EC5A-0100910 (2,355)

Legnum
EC5W-0000024 - EC5W-0101743 (8,934)
EC5W-5100101 - EC5W-5103031 (1,087)

Some of us have had the recall done as a preventative measure. All the parts needed to do mine (if it fails) are waiting at my local Mitsy distributor for fitting. These were ordered from Japan as a kit.

The Mitsy worksheet states that this is a 13 hour job ....... so it's a biggie. They change a considerable portion of the total braking system including piping.
:embarasse

[ThEbIrDmAn13]

if it's a recall the dealer should do it for free... in any case take it to the dealer and they will fix any recalls for free...

[Physician]

Here's a couple of the data sheets that came with all the parts Howie ....... as birdman saya - it's a free job once Mitsy confirm your car is on the list. I would suggest you simply tell them you want the recall doing and don't mention your problems if possible or they may start claiming you have to pay part of cost etc etc etc.

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Pictures/recall1.jpg


http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Pictures/recall2.jpg

[Wodjno]

Hmmm ! This is interesting... /Hmmm I have a prob with my bakes at the moment and i am in the process of fitting a new master cylinder (cheers Mo) as it looked like this could be the problem..
This is what happened.. /Hmmm Out razzing the car of a noght time, No brake problems. :thumbsup: Get into the car in the morning and put my foot on the bake and down to the floor it go's. /help If you pump it you can get some pressure for braking, but the pressure soon go's. Also if you hit the pedal fast you get some brake pressure but it ain't great.
So reading this thing about the Nitrogeon leak makes more sense to what happened to my brakes than a master cylinder failure. I shall give Mitsy a call today and see what they say.. /yes

PS.. When a car has been in for a recall, they always mark the car in some way to show that it has already been done.. Anyone know what the marking is for this recall. /Hmmm

[Kieran]

No need to look for a paint mark Glenn.... The ABS unit is swapped with a completley different one that doesn't have the nitrogen 'globes' on it. Mine's had it done (before it was exported from Japan) and the ABS unit now has a flat top with several brake pipes coming out of the top of it.

[Physician]

Glenn,

Open the brake fluid reservoir and shine a torch from the side. If it is a faulty diaphragm you should see millions of miniscule bubbles in the fluid.

Rich

[Wodjno]

Thank ypu for your replys Kieren and Richard. :thumbsup:
Kieren, is there any chance of a Piccy of your unit ? /Hmmm
Richard, great tip that :thumbsup:

At work at the Mo and will be dark when i get home, but will have a looky then..

Cheers

Glenn

[Physician]

These pictures/scans may help Glenn ....... otherwise Kieran may have a photo.

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Pictures/img203.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Pictures/img204.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Pictures/img205.jpg


EDIT: Oops! sorry Glenn, gotta go out and haven't time to reduce them in size - they're huge! :embarasse

[Wodjno]

These pictures/scans may help Glenn ....... otherwise Kieran may have a photo.



EDIT: Oops! sorry Glenn, gotta go out and haven't time to reduce them in size - they're huge! :embarasse

Great work Richard, they should do just fine.. /GJ :rolleyes4All though a little on the LARGE side /haz :thumbsup:

[HowieP]

Many thanks again to all esp Physician. My chassis no. is bang in the middle of the problem cars. Just thankful my system failed yards from home at less than 30mph. My symptoms were a rock hard pedal, no movement at all but for the ABS pumping and absolutely sod-all retardation. Have contacted local dealer who has taken a serious line and is trying to confirm things before carrying out work. Will definitely be joining-up to the full club. Cheers HP.

[Quad Al]

HowieP,
Did you get your brakes sorted? Looks like I might have the same problem or very similar. the age of my motor though, it's an '01 estate auto with only 40thou' on the clock. My Vin no. doesn't fall in the recall no.s though /pan .
Symptoms are soft pedal but it will stop the car, Handbrake absolutley spot on, Brake fluid level fine.
BUT after releasing brake pedal large bubbles one or two return up into the reservoir and sit under the plastic filter thingy. This is not good.
Physician can you shine any light on my issue? There are no tiny tiny bubbles in the fluid.
The problems started when the weather a couple of days ago dropped down to -5 and was around 0 degress for 24 hours.
I think that the seals in the master cylinder have perished/split. Does anybody agree with this? And dare I ask, Does anyone know the price of a new non mitsui' master cylinder?
Cheers,
Quadal.

[Physician]

BUT after releasing brake pedal large bubbles one or two return up into the reservoir and sit under the plastic filter thingy. This is not good.

I think that the seals in the master cylinder have perished/split. Does anybody agree with this?

I tend to agree that it's NOT the diaphragm problem but you obviously have a leak somewhere. I guess a large rip in the diaphragm could be causative but less likely.



Physician can you shine any light on my issue? There are no tiny tiny bubbles in the fluid.

As I said to Glenn .... shine a torch to shed light ............ :embarasse :joker:

[Quad Al]

I tend to agree that it's NOT the diaphragm problem but you obviously have a leak somewhere. I guess a large rip in the diaphragm could be causative but less likely.

As I said to Glenn .... shine a torch to shed light ............ :embarasse :joker:

Now it's stopped raining I've Had a poke and a prod, ( Pre-empted your advice Richard) and Spank my behind and call me Shirley!..... found the problem. The Downside is I've got to wait until Mitsui' re-open in the new year. :rolleyes4 Reading the workshop manual, "Cheers WODJ" There is a repair kit for the Brake Master Cylinder. I bet Mitsui' try and say there is'nt one /grr .
Oh yeah the problem is a weeping master cylinder :rolleyes4 .
Under the unit on the servo(Booster!) the paint's slightly bubbled, but not wet. There must have been a very small leak. And me thinks the recent cold weather has finished off the already duff seals.
For a 5year old 40kcar, this is not a good sign. :huh2:
As the old saying goes "they don't build them like they used to"
Anyone got a spare master cylinder lying around?...... "Mo"
Also carried out the in situ' tests for the servo/ Booster,and it passed with flying colours, thank f££kski.
Cheers, Rich and Glenn.

[dickytim]

it is actually quite common for the master cylinders to degrade, mine is going to need to be done when I do my brakes, it is not particularly expensive to have them rebuilt tho so no biggy. My clutch master cylinder cost just shy of $100, and the brake one is cheaper to do because I can do it myself.

[HowieP]

Quadal,
Not yet, dealer is having problems convincing the nescessary people that my car is subject to the recall with questions like"where is the accumulator?" This is despite my having provided requested photos of the said item showing the part number together with the master cylinder etc. "Inconclusive" I think was the verdict... Some members may already know of the webite www.dogandlemon.com, check it out if not as it is a translation of the entire Japanese transport department recall database, seems my car should have been called in a total of 6 times...interesting reading. If I'm starting to sound cynical and a bit p'd off I apologise but, after nearly two years without a car I am having to buy another one now the dealer process is stalling, and it ain't made in Japan!
Howard

[Kieran]

Howard - Mitsubishi UK can be stung into action by a polite but firm letter to their MD. Several members have done this and amazingly(!), something that 'could take weeks and weeks' is resolved in a fraction of that time. Play the 'what if it failed and I wrapped myself around a tree' card (with evidence to back up your claims that you are subject to the recall) and you'll get a swift response....

[Nick Mann]

Another apathetic Mitsubishi Dealer. Such a shame that they let the brand down. The only other dealers I have had the misfortune to deal with is Peugeot and they are worse! I agree with Kieran - give them a good old safety recall kick and spit your dummy out. You have nothing to lose and will hopefully get your car back to where it should be.

[HowieP]

Kieran,
This will indeed be my next move as I have to sort the problem, truth being that if the failure on my car had happened on a motorway or perhaps approaching a pedestrian crossing then lives possibly/probably would have been lost, I had no braking at all, the pedal did not move 1mm and it took 50m odd to stop as I was on a downhill using only the gear shifter and handbrake, from about 25mph. I do think however that the UK importers and the dealers should be striving to identify and repair these cars in view of the very serious potential of these faults. Had they been more proactive then customers like me would remain and not go and buy an old Merc for a few hundred quid.
Regards,
Howard

[HowieP]

Nick,
I have worked in motor industries for 24 years and have to say that some dealers are absolutely excellent but, the old scenario applies, you only hear of the bad ones (usually anyway). My dealer has only passed on the comments of Colt Cars staff as they are the ones taking the decisions, quite why they cannot accept a photographed part number I don't know!
Cheers,
Howard

[Physician]

My letter from Oct 2004: ( The matter was sorted within days)

Attention: The Managing Director

Dear Sir,

Having already visited my local Mitsubishi dealer (Leicester) and written to your service department without any action (since the beginning of August) I am sorry to have to bring this matter to the attention of your office.
You will note from the attached photocopy that my Galant VR4 (Imported) is one of a number that needs the ASC mending or replacing and that Mitsubishi have advised that the car should not be driven in the meantime.
I believe that some 8 weeks is more than enough time to have this fault rectified and I would now like some action. The consequences for Mitsubishi, let alone myself and other road users, should an accident occur due to a known fault are considerable.
I would appreciate your intervention and to ask one of your staff to respond to this matter within seven days.
Thankyou.

Yours faithfuly,



Richard Davies
Encl: Mitsubishi recall database details
Cc: Andrew M Ford Solicitors (Ref telecon 4/10/04)

[WildCards]

And out come the big guns...

[HowieP]

Car now in dealer. Will post reports as progress is made!

[HowieP]

Update as promised! Car still in dealer...

All recall parts eventually fitted following protracted discussion regarding my car having already been fixed in Japan in Dec 2004, strange as I have owned it here since 1999. Apparently there are several known examples of grey exports having their details cloned...be aware.

So, technician road tests the car and... the brakes fail again! Exactly the same symptom as I had ie. solid pedal and no retardation but with one important difference, the new components switching to "safe mode" very quickly and giving the driver back normal braking albeit with the ABS warning on. A check on the fault codes showed the actual fault on the car to be two solenoid valves/switches that control the system power assistance. When these failed in conjunction with the original brake/traction control components "safe mode" did not happen.

Several weeks later the new valves are on and the test drive begins... with the ABS on all the time! More fault code reading and it is found the os/f ABS reluctor ring is missing a tooth! Now begins the task of identifying the outer joint so we can source a new one as Mitsubishi only supply complete shafts.

I have been in touch with Camskill who are reasonably confident that a joint can be matched once dimensions are ascertained.

What else will we find once the ring is sorted?

I'll let you all know!

[richy rich]

bloody hell mate that is a long list

[HowieP]

At last!!! My car is OTR again, 10:00 today!!!

The cv joint apparently cannot be obtained in the aftermarket so, yet more research using some contacts found in the forums put me eventually in touch with Paul at Reco-Prop in Luton. Confidence of a solution was increased so I dropped the joint in and a week later a new phonic ring has been grafted onto the original casting. A great result after all the problems and everything now works (when it should I think!).

I cannot establish if the new ECU contains any changes that affect the drive but is it really as ballistic as this? Or has over two years deprivation affected the old memory? Left the dealer site and broke the speed limit, instantly. My merc must be slow...

Many thanks to all who contributed to my original posting, without your help I would probably have binned the car. Cheers.

[Nick Mann]

:2thumbsup

Hope the smile as you drove it away was worth the hassle and lost time. Glad you got there in the end!

[Paul Beazer]

Cool result Howie, you are a patient man!