400 Bhp Limt ???

[Louis]

Hi folks,
I was wondering, (I have done a search but no definite results), Where does this 400ish figure limit come from?, I have read in various threads about the output shafts stripping splines with this kind of power output. Is there definite proof of this?, has anyone on here or does anyone on here know someone who has done this, (damaged the output shaft due to bhp), Has anyone on here, or again do we know of anyone at all, who has damaged engine components due to BHP, i.e. a definite damage directly contributed from an engine bhp upgrade, I don't mean any damage caused by lean running or incorrect adjustment etc. Just trying to work out definite weaknesses. I have a magazine article from Japan which shows a 500bhp (pps) track car, Galant Vr4, it's a manual.
I would be interested in any info but mainly definite related instances, cheers

[bradc]

First of all, could you scan the magazine article? I'm sure some of us would be interested to read it (even if it is in japanese, I know translators)

I know one car here that is running 200kw at the wheels, which translates to about 370hp, he isn't having any problems at all.

The 400-ish limit comes from the fact the stock turbos are quite small, and while it should be possible to get 400hp from them, you won't be able to get much more from the stock items. Do you know what turbos that VR-4 was running? I bet they weren't the stock ones.

[Louis]

Hi,
Yeah, I will try and scan and post pic of article.
It was more what is proven to be a weak link rather than what is a limitation, I am really trying to find out where the 400ish danger level is coming from as I can find no definite evidence of why you can't go over 400 if you can manage it. Has anyone stripped an output shaft or twisted a drive shaft, due to excesive power output from the engine, OR is it a limitation of how far we can go with the tuning parts available?.

The car in the mag is a track day car and has 550ps 67.2kg-m. turbos are TD0516G-6cm twin turbo. and an EVO V (5) manual box. it has two seperate air filters (hks) one feeding each turbo with seperate pipes(not two into one). Also looks like it uses an HKS F-con V pro. Boost is at either 1.3 bar although 1.5 bar is also mentioned.

It's just that I had believed that if you went over 400ish the rest of the drive train (poss the gearbox)would not hold up to it, I also remember seeing somewhere mentions of "There's no point.........as we can only go up to 400 bhp".
Any views welcome.

[TTV6VR4]

Sounds like a bit of a beast. Aern't the stock internals good for up to 500HP?. Can't wait to see it :happy: .

[bradc]

I think I've seen a picture of a galant being used on a track before in Japan, but I only had one picture of it.

I'd be interested to see how they managed to fit a pair of TD05's in there, they must have modified the firewall quite a bit.

[AllBeItMine]

if its the same galant track car i am thinking off - it had an evo6 engine in it.

the 400hp limit comes from the air flow meter not being able to meter enough air acurately to supply 400hp.

around 400hp is also the limit of accuracy on the evo's afms as well.

the drivetrain of the vr4's is almost identical to late model evo ones, and apart from the added weight of the car, should withstand the same tolerances, which are well over 400hp

[Louis]

if its the same galant track car i am thinking off - it had an evo6 engine in it.

No. it's definitely a 6A13 V6.

There is no pic of the turbos in the car, (just a shot of the engine bay) but it probably has had some modificatios to the firewall (due to size of turbos), it is totaly stripped out, a track day only car. The pipe work is routed slightly differently

the drivetrain of the vr4's is almost identical to late model evo ones, and apart from the added weight of the car, should withstand the same tolerances, which are well over 400hp

That's what I thought also, there are some big numbers out there from EVO's.

I have seen quite a few skylines that are using the AFM's from Nissan 350z's as an upgrade.

I will try and get the pic scanned, it is actually a Hong Kong magazine, it came third out of around 20 cars at the track day, (can't see a name of the track), I have had the mag for a while, I think it's from 2002.

[TTV6VR4]

ABIM i think this is the one you are talkin about. The JUN VR4, truly a work of automotive art.

[Louis]

Finally managed to get a digi photo, (sorry no scan), you can see the strap line under the engine bay pic about the 550pps, I will also try to post a pic of the car, as far as I am aware this is runninjg stock internals.

Just to keep this on topic, I would be very interested to hear of WHO! has damaged their engine as a direct result of too much BHP.

OR Am I right in thinking that it is the lack of available tuning add ons that limit the tuning.

[Louis]

Ahh crap! I think the pics are too big, I shall try again.

[Nick Mann]

Finally managed to get a digi photo, (sorry no scan), you can see the strap line under the engine bay pic about the 550pps, I will also try to post a pic of the car, as far as I am aware this is runninjg stock internals.

Just to keep this on topic, I would be very interested to hear of WHO! has damaged their engine as a direct result of too much BHP.

OR Am I right in thinking that it is the lack of available tuning add ons that limit the tuning.

Turbos are the first big limitation. They don't flow enough air to get over mid 300's.
Injectors should cope with low 400's if you can get the turbos sorted.
AFAIK no-one has damaged an engine through power alone. I think there have been a couple of engines that have gone pop after modification and incorrect fuelling/timing.
I have snapped an output shaft on the gearbox but strongly believe that my gearbox issues at the time helped it on its way. Another member has twisted two output shafts whilst running similar or maybe higher power than me when his car was being set up on a rolling road.
I don't know of any other power related failures.

[Louis]

Hopefully the pics are attached

[Louis]

Hi,
Thanks Nick, that is exactly the info I was looking for, I knew there was a possible issue with output shafts but hadn't seen a definite mention. as you say it is difficult to place blame with an upgrade, when the car and parts may be 6 years old and had some abuse. but that is interesting. I also know of people with skylines who have done damage on rolling roads during a full power run, (not just a rolling road day).
I used to run a mk1 celica at York dragway and reached a stage where it started twisting the drivers side half shaft, I went through 5 before I decided to call it a day and stop pushing for power.

[Nick Mann]

Several members have run more power than that and not damaged anything. (mid 300's then 100 shot of NOS!)

And I have not stopped thinking power, but been and found a stronger output shaft!!

[bradc]

Louis, thanks for the pics, that is a great looking car.

Did anyone else notice that pipe running straight through the engine? It looks like they ran the pipe from the front turbo up to the right, through the top of the engine, then towards the left like on the normal car. Kind of strange. You can see the top of the external wastegate on there as well, I guess they moved the turbo off to the side so they could fit the TD05 in there. I wonder what they did with the back turbo? You can see the intake pipe for it, and the pipe going to the intercooler, but you can't see where the turbo is actually located.

They've kept the standard intake manifold and it doesn't look like the throttle body has been changed either.

[Rossco Type-S]

What is that on the right just in front of the strut?

[bradc]

maybe it is the blow off valve?

I've emailed Jun and asked for more details of the vehicle, and I'm also waiting for louis to upload every page of that article ;)

[Louis]

Hi, just noticed in the similar threads link at the bottom of the page "500 + bhp G8 VR4" by VR4ever, this may be the same car, it's been about since 2002. according to the mag it came 3rd at the track day timing session behind a porsche 911 and a ferrari f360, out of around 20 cars, beating skylines and evos etc.

[michaeli]

He's also relocated the coolant expansion tank to the right hand side...

He's running MAP as he's got 2 air filters and no MAF

If you look to the rear piping, it looks like his back turbo has been moved to the left of where it should be...

It also looks like the front turbo has been moved to the right of where it should be..

All makes sense actually as there more space there for bigger turbos like TD05's /yes

Interesting.... /Hmmm



MORE INFO PLEASE!!!

[bradc]

The engine bay looks similar to You See's VR-4 (now up to about 385hp), which has no MAF, and twin air filters. The thing that confused me was the pipe from the front turbo that runs through the top of the engine, it's quite strange.

[Louis]

I was guessing the pipe routing between the cylinder heads thing was related to space around the turbo (possibly a gas flow thang also). Although when I changed my plugs n stuff recently there isn't much space through there, (heat, ignition leads, coils etc!)

Nick,"And I have not stopped thinking power, but been and found a stronger output shaft!!, So have you found a shaft from another vehicle, or had one made up?, (or just welded it all together!?).

Yes, I had been thinking bout Derek's motor, you would think that anything running a large burst of Nos with no progressive controller would be the one to have damage, personally I feel these engines are stronger than some people give them credit for, unfortunately you have to test to destruction to find out capabilities, and I don't fancy that, cheers Louis

[bradc]

I've got a spare engine, and I'm going to get a well known performance place around here to pull it all apart to see what the weak things are. I'm going to tell him I want 500hp, what do I need to change?

[Kieran]

I've got a spare engine, and I'm going to get a well known performance place around here to pull it all apart to see what the weak things are. I'm going to tell him I want 500hp, what do I need to change?

Keep us updated with your findings then Brad. Should make interesting reading.

[Nick Mann]

Nick,"And I have not stopped thinking power, but been and found a stronger output shaft!!, So have you found a shaft from another vehicle, or had one made up?, (or just welded it all together!?).

The thread is a long one, but have a look here:-

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12148&page=1&pp=20

Basically we share the same output shaft with the Evo boys. They are prone to snapping at high power/torque, so there is already a demand for them. I bought mine for £170 and was told that no-one has managed to break one of theirs yet. Here's to having fun trying! :chugchug:

[AllBeItMine]

DOCILE broke 1 or 2 standard ones in his evo3... but that was over a period of a number of quarter mile runs... so they held up quite well considering... that evo was putting 1070hp to all 4 wheels.

[Nick Mann]

DOCILE broke 1 or 2 standard ones in his evo3... but that was over a period of a number of quarter mile runs... so they held up quite well considering... that evo was putting 1070hp to all 4 wheels.

Yep. I am reasonably certain that my box slamming into gear was the main culprit. But seeing as I have it apart anyway, why not just make it stronger?!

[TTV6VR4]

That galant was wicked. Was there any more pics of it?. Can you please put up all the pics and writing about it?.

[Louis]

HI, There were not that many pics of it, but I will try and get it scanned etc, the mag is from Hong Kong, so it's in Cantonese, cheers

[Kieran]

HI, There were not that many pics of it, but I will try and get it scanned etc, the mag is from Hong Kong, so it's in Cantonese, cheers

Not sure if it would be appropriate to do this, but would your local take-away be willing to help? :inquisiti

/I hasten to add that I don't wish to cause offence by that statement!!

[bradc]

I know a few cantonese people, there should be no problems getting it translated. I though it might be in hongkonese, which could cause some problems ;)

[TTV6VR4]

Did anyone actucally know that the galant with 550HP is the JUN VR4?.

[zentac]

I think the rods will be the weakest think, they are tiny and I cant see them taking 500bhp

[amsoil]

My thought too, proper rods, forged pistons and finally a bottom end strap.:2thumbsup

[valmes]

I've found the owner of this Galant, but I can't register there to contact him... :(

http://www.skylinesdownunder.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39320&page=2 look at post #30

[bradc]

thanks for the link valmes

[bernmc]

Late seeing this thread, but hasn't Dave (BDA/Enigma) broken two engines? Last I heard he was running about 350BHP + NOS -?100BHP.

Not sure the exact circumstances.

The skyline engine is a lot stronger than ours, and even they talk about uprating the internals if going over 400BHP. Our 350Z is 3.5l and the max suggested power hike on stock internals is 400 with a TT setup...

[bradc]

I registered about 30 minutes ago and I'm still waiting for the email to come though.

Bern, remember the Z isn't a turbo car from the factory. I'm still going to upgrade my internals though when I do the turbos.

[Davezj]

didn't Kev have a 500+ galant before someone ran in to it.

[Louis]

I wouldn't say Kev's was standard, I am still wondering how much we can get out of the factory spec, as many numbers get spoken of, but who has broken an engine part due to increased power?. It is hard to actually relate damage to an upgrade. But if someone has melted a pistin straight after a boost increase to 1.3 (or whatever), that would be a line drawn etc. I am sure no-one wants to blow their engine for research, but if you have done this by accident, it would be good to gather the info in one place.

[Kieran]

Yeah, Louis has a point - you see, all the engine failures we've seen (that I can remember anyway!) have all been where boost or going too lean through NOS has been the culprit. Sure, we've found the limits of the turbos, the fuel system, NOS limits, etc, but in terms of maxiumum *power* we're still a little in the dark I think?

[bradc]

We know the limits of the turbos, Uc's car makes 200kw at the wheels, that is with MAP, two air filters on completely seperate intakes etc. He's had his car for about a year now with those power ouputs and hasn't broken anything, so I think it is safe to say that if you keep the stock turbos you can't do much damage to the engine as long as you keep the fuelling sorted.

The interesting thing will be what happens with allbeitmine and Valmes who both have TD04's on their engines and stock internals. Richard Batty still has stock internals doesn't he?

[Kieran]

We know the limits of the turbos, Uc's car makes 200kw at the wheels

Feck! That's 272bhp at the wheels!:speechles

[bradc]

Here are his graph's, on two seperate dynos. On the Gary Capper one that figure is with the stock fuel pump, on that dyno after he upgraded, he recorded 205kw, then on the Torque Performance dyno with the fuel pump it was back to 198kw.

[zentac]

We know the limits of the turbos, Uc's car makes 200kw at the wheels, that is with MAP, two air filters on completely seperate intakes etc. He's had his car for about a year now with those power ouputs and hasn't broken anything, so I think it is safe to say that if you keep the stock turbos you can't do much damage to the engine as long as you keep the fuelling sorted.

The interesting thing will be what happens with allbeitmine and Valmes who both have TD04's on their engines and stock internals. Richard Batty still has stock internals doesn't he?

I snapped a rod Last year... waiting for forged ones to arrive any day now.

[bradc]

Do you have any specs on your upgraded rods? Did you tell them you wanted forged ones that could handle 600hp or did they give a recommendation?

[zentac]

mentioned a figure slightly higher than that as I will have a BIG shot of nos on there.

[bradc]

how much for it all?

[zentac]

who knows.... ;)

[bradc]

come on, tell me :) I'm getting a quote done down here as well for forged pistons and rods. Are you doing anything with the crank or was it assumed strong enough?

[zentac]

Mitsi cranks are renound for being strong, so Im not touching that at the moment....however I am looking into a possible stroker kit...shhhh... ;)

[bradc]

ok cool. I'm giving them the crank, block, pistons and rods to look at, they can tell me what needs replacing.