Legnum crash test results

[jayjay99]

Just having a look and thought I'd post this for anyone that was interested, a Legnum ST but you'll get an idea if you don't have an estate.

Crash test (http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2000/e00f042.html)

Braking Performance (http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2000/e000619.html)

[I-S]

Rather less sophisticated than the NCAP tests, but interesting nonetheless... Would be interesting to see how it performed in an offset deformable collision test.

Interesting also that the heavier Diamante can stop quicker in the wet than the galant can in the dry...

[ariddell]

Going from the fact that everything seems to be green i'll take that as a good sign and not worry about it.....

Would be nice if they had fitted seatbelt pretensioners/side airbags etc on Japanese cars though, weird that they didn't seem to do them that often...

[Nick Mann]

I haven't done many stopping tests with the G-Tech, but seem to remember 122 feet as being the distance taken to stop from 60 mph. That converts to around 37 meters. Even with the 2 mph difference to 100 kph and the innaccuracy of the g-tech, that is a big difference to the figures they are quoting.

[pezza]

I haven't done many stopping tests with the G-Tech, but seem to remember 122 feet as being the distance taken to stop from 60 mph. That converts to around 37 meters. Even with the 2 mph difference to 100 kph and the innaccuracy of the g-tech, that is a big difference to the figures they are quoting.


Yeh especially with the common debate about brake upgrades from standard. I am sure the stopping difference figures would definitely speak for themselves...

[WildCards]

but seem to remember 122 feet as being the distance taken to stop from 60 mph. That converts to around 37 meters.

Anyone fancy telling the DVLA that cars have better brakes these days /pan They haven't updated their stopping distances for donkeys years, it really riles me when you see ads on TV and hear coppers coming out with this (http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm) cr@p /grr :-policema /grr

[Kenneth]

Its TYRES that stop cars. so as soon as you put better than standard tyres on your car you will stop quicker. simple as that.

[Wodjno]

I haven't done many stopping tests with the G-Tech, but seem to remember 122 feet as being the distance taken to stop from 60 mph. That converts to around 37 meters. Even with the 2 mph difference to 100 kph and the innaccuracy of the g-tech, that is a big difference to the figures they are quoting.

I have ran 10 consecutive 0-60-0 mph tests (around 30-40secs between each) on Turbo groove discs and redstuff ceramics.. 1st one was around 120 feet then they continually improved until the last 1 which was 102ft.. The brakes were smoking, but that didn't seem to affect the outcome.. /Hmmm

[Kieran]

Its TYRES that stop cars. so as soon as you put better than standard tyres on your car you will stop quicker. simple as that.

I was skeptical about this untill I put the SP Sport 01s on the car. Much better breaking and less ABS kick-in, even on my current (about worn out) brake setup /yes

[Kenneth]

I was skeptical about this untill I put the SP Sport 01s on the car. Much better breaking and less ABS kick-in, even on my current (about worn out) brake setup /yes

You're skepticism (when you had it...) unfortunatly represents a fair amount of the population. Many believe that their poor brake performance will change with an expensive brake upgrade (ie: brembos).
People keep going on about how much better their brembos work, however they fail to understand the principles in how brakes work. My standard brakes pull in VERY well with a simple change in pad compound and Goodyear Eagle F1 tyres.

[Wodjno]

It's not Just Tyres that stop the car though.. :inquisiti Granted, if you haven't got good traction from Tyre to Road then it doesn't matter how hard your brakes bite. But this also works the other way to, it doesn't matter how well your Tyres grip if your brakes don't give sufficient pressure or the friction materiel and disc don't create enough friction to slow the car.. It's a balance of the 2 together that creates effective braking.
So increasing your disc size and calipers can decrease your braking distance but only if your tyres have sufficient grip to stop the wheels from locking up from the increased braking force.
But also then you have ABS to bring into the Equation. As some ABS systems kick in a little early for my liking. Thats if you have ABS that is. /yes

[Kenneth]

It's not Just Tyres that stop the car though.. :inquisiti Granted, if you haven't got good traction from Tyre to Road then it doesn't matter how hard your brakes bite. But this also works the other way to, it doesn't matter how well your Tyres grip if your brakes don't give sufficient pressure or the friction materiel and disc don't create enough friction to slow the car.. It's a balance of the 2 together that creates effective braking.
So increasing your disc size and calipers can decrease your braking distance but only if your tyres have sufficient grip to stop the wheels from locking up from the increased braking force.
But also then you have ABS to bring into the Equation. As some ABS systems kick in a little early for my liking. Thats if you have ABS that is. /yes

Sure, the friction between the disc and the pads apply a braking torque on the wheel, which then gets transmitted to the braking surface (be it road or whatever) and if you cant maintian that friction then you just wont stop as fast as you could.

Fortunatly though you can get agressive pad compounds and fluids with high boiling points. These alone are adequate to get full braking potential (full braking potential being set by the tyres)
When you need bigger brakes is when you are on the track. If you go track your car, then brake upgrades are a very good idea. You will increase the efficiency of your braking, and be able to keep it for longer (along with longer disk and pad life). However your maximum braking will not alter.

Unfortunatly on the VR-4, the standard pads are crap. so are the standard tyres. the standard tyres will not handle high G stops, and the brake pads will not handle high speed braking.

With better tyres and different brake pads the VR-4 pulls up very very fast. in fact from well over 100mph (160km/h) I can pull up on the standard brakes very well.
I have even been able to pull up to if not the full potential, very close to the full potential with disks that were glowing red hot.


You are correct about ABS too, you can stop faster without ABS if you know what you are doing. Still a good safety thing though. not good for racing however, where its beneficial to be able to lock your wheels up...

[Wodjno]

:thumbsup:

And then theres Downforce /Hmmm

[Kenneth]

:thumbsup:

And then theres Downforce /Hmmm

yes, down-force is uesful. unfortunatly the returns are deminishing. for 100% increase in down-force your available friction will not increase by anywhere near that value.

a variable pitch wing/splitter would be nice though :) I believe there are one or 2 cars that have this, very expensive ones though :P (where you hit the brakes and the rear wing tilts to give you air brakes as well)

[Nick Mann]

I agree with Kenneth on his points there. The standard brakes are more than good enough to stop a few times at the limit of the tyres, then they start overheating and losing friction. Upgraded pads/discs help, as you can stop more times before temperatures in the brakes start affecting friction. Bigger brakes are really only needed if you plan on driving like a hooligan with many, repeated, high speed, maximum g, energy absorbing stops.

(Who, me? :p )

[WildCards]

Good info Kenneth, i've never really paid much thought to it, but it does make sense. Spose i'd better buy some decent tyres next time round then.

/EDIT - Do uprated rear brake discs and pads make much difference?

[Wodjno]

Good info Kenneth, i've never really paid much thought to it, but it does make sense. Spose i'd better buy some decent tyres next time round then.

/EDIT - Do uprated rear brake discs and pads make much difference?

No, not really ! As most of the braking force is administered by the front brakes.
/yes Again only once on track with plenty of high speed braking would you notce a difference.

[WildCards]

That's what i thought

Cheers Glenn

[I-S]

Anyone fancy telling the DVLA that cars have better brakes these days /pan They haven't updated their stopping distances for donkeys years, it really riles me when you see ads on TV and hear coppers coming out with this (http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm) cr@p /grr :-policema /grr

But people still drive too bloody close, so changing it would just encourage them. You also have to include lowest common denominator. Sure, maybe YOUR car will stop quicker, but not every car on the road will.

[Kenneth]

/EDIT - Do uprated rear brake discs and pads make much difference?

only if you have upgraded the front. This is because of brake-bias. In an ideal world this would mean that both the front and rear tyres are just about at lockup at the same point in time (emergency braking or racing etc).

This situation gives the best possible friction and therefore slows you down the most.
If you upgrade only your front brakes, and the brake bias moves more to the front then you loose some of the effectiveness of your rear brakes, which in turn will mean you actually stop slower. You may FEEL like you are stopping faster though, as the front of the car will want to dip more.

you can get brake bias adjusters. The thing with brake bias is that it is rather dynamic. Racing cars usually have theirs adjustable from the cockpit, so the driver can keep optimal braking throughout the race. ( fuel level shifts weight distribute )

[WildCards]

So for best results it's both or none at all?

[Wodjno]

So for best results it's both or none at all?

Err.. ? Still worth getting uprated fronts /yes without the rears.. but if you wanna do both, do both :inquisiti Still makes a difference.

[WildCards]

Yeah, just wondered whether it made a difference on the road really.

You see these 6 pot front & 4 pot rear conversions and i didn't know what difference the rear would make. I don't think i would ever need brakes beyond uprated discs and pads TBH. But it's nice to know..you know.

[Wodjno]

Yeah, just wondered whether it made a difference on the road really.

You see these 6 pot front & 4 pot rear conversions and i didn't know what difference the rear would make. I don't think i would ever need brakes beyond uprated discs and pads TBH. But it's nice to know..you know.

If you just uprated your front discs and pads then there wouldn't be that much need to do the rears, but you could as a matterof course. But if you went for 6 pots on the front then it would be advisable to uprate the rears to, as the brake balance would definitely be out then and you would start have issues with the balance of the car under hard braking..

Yes at the end of the day, it's each to his own and all that. Everyone drives differently and everone has a different budget and knowledge and technical ability. /yes So you do what you can within your own realms of ability and budget. /yes

And it's also to easy to get blinded with science. /yes So i try to keep it down to the basics :thumbsup:

[Kenneth]

It depends on what the upgrade does to your brake bias. the brembo conversion also means bigger disks, which will apply a greater braking torque to the wheel. this is bound to upset your brake bias.

If you get your ABS going, it probably makes no difference as the ABS will take care of the brake bias issue.

For optimal results do the lot or nothing. this is optimal though, you shouldn't have any issues with upgrading only the front. It's all up to you in the end.

Brake technology is not new, there is plenty of literature on it around. All the stuff I have come across regarding brake upgrades agree that by upgrading the front only (in a way that will move the brake bias) without any way to adjust brake bias, you will actually increase your stopping distance. (all else being the same. )

[Kenneth]

Yeah, just wondered whether it made a difference on the road really.

You see these 6 pot front & 4 pot rear conversions and i didn't know what difference the rear would make. I don't think i would ever need brakes beyond uprated discs and pads TBH. But it's nice to know..you know.

How often do you have to brake at the limit? if not often then chances are you will find no real difference. in general driving, you don't use your brakes anywhere near their potiential anyway.

I once had to slam on the brakes and ended up millimeters away from the guy in front of me... It was so close I wondered if I actually hit. in a case like this, it could make the difference. in saying that, it was my brain fade that allowed the situation to come about in the first place, so hey.

/edit: and if you just drive around town and only do the occasional hard braking stint, then you dont need upgraded calipers at all. get some decent pads, good fluid and some decent disks.

[WildCards]

knowledge and technical ability

Yup, lacking on both points :embarasse


So you do what you can within your own realms of ability and budget. /yes

Budget being the overiding factor in my instance, I know brakes are said to be the best, first and most worthwhile mod on a VR4, but i really don't know as i need more than a disc and pad upgrade.


blinded with science. /yes So i try to keep it down to the basics :thumbsup:

Good, the basics...I think i can cope with that :thumbsup:




Thanks Kenneth & Wodjno. Some good info and I do feel a little wiser about the whole brake issue. The more time I spend on this site the more imaginary money I seem to be able to spend, But at the end of the day, VR4 ownership for me (if ever) the occasional track day and some spirited b-road driving within safety limits, really nothing that hoooooge brakes would be needed for.

Thanks


Steve

[mitzylongboy]

no one has mentioned the condition of the roads? you are now seeing a lot more "shellgrip" at traffic lights and crossings, roundabouts. i never really believed the hype of good car tyres, it only made sense to me when riding bikes. but driving on pirelli p7000's i notice so much grip cornering and confidence in the wet i am gobsmacked!!
i doubt i will ever buy a basic tyre again!!
mind you i find the galant so good in corners for such a big front wheel drive car.
shouldn't suspension get a mention?
also isn't braking causing down force anyway?

[Kenneth]

no one has mentioned the condition of the roads? you are now seeing a lot more "shellgrip" at traffic lights and crossings, roundabouts. i never really believed the hype of good car tyres, it only made sense to me when riding bikes. but driving on pirelli p7000's i notice so much grip cornering and confidence in the wet i am gobsmacked!!
i doubt i will ever buy a basic tyre again!!
mind you i find the galant so good in corners for such a big front wheel drive car.
shouldn't suspension get a mention?
also isn't braking causing down force anyway?

Ok then :thumbsup:
Suspension - Has one performance purpose... Keep all 4 tyres in the best possible contact with the road at all times. ideally it would also keep the weight even over all 4 corners as well... but its not an ideal world. So, the better your suspension is at performing this task, the faster you can stop, accelerate and corner! Unfortunatly suspension is far from perfect and what is good on one surface might not be the best on another.

Braking does NOT cause down force unless you are using a variable pitch wing or some such to aid you. it DOES cause weight transfer to your front wheels, pushing the tyres into the ground. this is why you get around 70% of braking done by the front tyres. you cannot change this weight transfer. What you can do is change how fast it happens... with suspension.