What grease for brake caliper guide bolts???

[Gly]

as per title, what greese do i need to use for this...

did the rear brake pads today...
and found that the greese on the rear right brake is completely dried up
and not letting the caliper move very well..

and wore down the pad on a funny angle...

according to Kieran's guide this is some special stuff...

anyone know what it is???

[Paul Beazer]

I've used a copper based grease without any ill effects.

[Nick VR4]

I've used a copper based grease without any ill effects.

It use to be called Copper Slip

[Kieran]

The debate rages over copper slip. Some argue that it can shrink rubbers. It's certainly not the grease that Mitsubishi specify, but several members (including myself on Isaac's GLS) have used it with no ill effects.

The 'correct' grease appears to be a silicone-based one - doesn't attack rubber components, but I can't find anyone manufacturing/selling the recommended stuff. It looks not unlike red rubber grease, but it can't be that?!

[amsoil]

The 'correct' grease appears to be a silicone-based one - doesn't attack rubber components, but I can't find anyone manufacturing/selling the recommended stuff. It looks not unlike red rubber grease, but it can't be that?!

Didn't you just know that we have it. I'll check in the morning but am pretty sure its the Series2000 Amsoil grease. Personally I thought copper slip worked OK.:thinking:

[Kieran]

Didn't you just know that we have it. I'll check in the morning but am pretty sure its the Series2000 Amsoil grease. Personally I thought copper slip worked OK.:thinking:

Goodness me! Amsoil having a special super-dooper grease for the job! /lol Who'd have thought it!!:inquisiti ;)

/Do check.... This Thursday is payday and so I'll be ordering the final parts to do my brake overhaul.

[g6acb]

...or you could look into the world of mountain biking for high grade lithium grease - used this on my old GLS to solve all manner of funny noises from front brakes with no ill effects....
it was even red too!!!

[Kieran]

...or you could look into the world of mountain biking for high grade lithium grease - used this on my old GLS to solve all manner of funny noises from front brakes with no ill effects....
it was even red too!!!

That's interesting..... Wonder if the Mitsubishi OEM grease is Lithium based then? Don? What say you? Is lithium grease used on slide and pivot pins?

[amsoil]

I'm going to have to look this one up, I know that the guy who does servicing next door to my warehouse swears by copperslip but then again he puts copperslip on everything. The coloured greases are generally special and expensive. I would have thought from the problems the pins will encounter that the most applicable would have been our water resistant grease as its the sticking through corrsion thats the usual problem. The water resistant grease besides being fairly cheap is usually used for bearings and brakes on boat trailers that are reversed into the sea! If the bearings and brakes can survive this then I'm confident that it will stop corrosion and sticking on a road car. But I do welcome your comments.

[tig202]

Gly bro, I have some German stuff that Audi allows on the RS6 and the new RS4, want me to send u a tube of it??:pimp2:

[Gly]

yeh that would be sweet... ill send you a pm with my addy

[amsoil]

Having asked I'm told that the best stuff to use would be Copperslip, the real stuff not Comma or someone elses version.

[Wodjno]

While on the subject.. Does anyone know if we can just purchase the Rubber bits for the ends of the guide pins or do we have to order a complete New braking System including Discs, Pads, Brake Pipes, Master and Slave Cylinder, Brake Booster, ABS System etc.. /help

[I-S]

See my other post for background...

Where did we get to on this? I've just done a bit of searching, and looks like lithium-based greases can handle up to about 250C (around the same as the boiling point of brake fluid). Is this enough for brake pin usage? Copaslip will go up to about 1100C (think at this point you might have a whole other heap of problems).

g6acb - So far the best grease I've found for mtb use is Amsoil GHD. :iloveyou:

We need an Amsoil smiley.

[g6acb]

g6acb - So far the best grease I've found for mtb use is Amsoil GHD. :iloveyou:

We need an Amsoil smiley.

Cheers for the info - may just tag some on to my next order


Made a smiley just for you Isaac

10445

[I-S]

What do you ride g6acb? I've recently come up with a lovely concoction for fox float rear shocks, which consists of a mixture of Amsoil GHD and Amsoil ATF. Makes the consistency wetter than the plain grease, which is perfect for the air sleeve of the fox. GHD by itself is great in headsets and bearings. I'm just waiting for amsoil to come out with a 15wt fork oil (but I might brew my own out of 10wt and ATF)

[I-S]

Gah, double post...

[g6acb]

Cannondale f800sl - no rear shock here and front 'headshok' full of floaty light air (when it decides to keep it in ithat is)

its racked up 2500 miles in 3 years all off road and is starting to show its age a bit and require more and more tlc ...... been looking at an Orange 5 Pro - getting very tempted :inquisiti

[Kieran]

Follow up on this one... as you may have read, this weekend I was mostly removing my calipers and I decided to check the condition of the pins, especially the fronts, which had previously stuck.

Based on what I found, I will *not* be using copaslip on my guide and locking pins again!

There's more to this story, which I will post when I get back from work.

[BraindG]

Follow up on this one... as you may have read, this weekend I was mostly removing my calipers and I decided to check the condition of the pins, especially the fronts, which had previously stuck.

Based on what I found, I will *not* be using copaslip on my guide and locking pins again!

There's more to this story, which I will post when I get back from work.
I knew there was a reason why i didnt do mine this weekend!.. looking forwards to your report.

[I-S]

K - let me know. I've acquired new front discs, have pads ready to go, etc.

If there's a sticking issue with copaslip then could this have contributed to the death of my brake disc by getting pad dragging? Only the OS disc is affected it seems...

Got time next weekend? I should have the discs by then, have the pads, shims, Amsoil GHD....

[I-S]

Testing?

[Kieran]

Got time next weekend? I should have the discs by then, have the pads, shims, Amsoil GHD....

Sorry Isaac - as I think Alex has said somewhere else - we're busy the next three weekends in a row! Suffice to say there will again be the sound of clattering in the air at Japshow time!! /help

[I-S]

No probs, I will see what I can do.

[Kieran]

Well, as promised, here's the reasons behind my ealier statement - What I don't understand is why this has happened.... All the seals were intact and such, but nonetheless, the results are plain to see. Anyway, more discussion later.

Here is the vicious bast@rd that was causing me such grief at the weekend.... The little fecker wouldn't come apart! The sliding bolts were siezed, and one of them would *NOT* undo at all!!

[Kieran]

Anyway, I finally prised the caliper away from the housing, and managed to unscrew one of the pins.... And I saw a disturbing sight.

This is one of the pins from the nearside rear caliper. The rears haven't had any attention before in either my tenure or Nick's. So, to be fair, this is really just one of those things - what the eye doesn't see and all that.....

[Kieran]

More disturbing was the fronts.... At the end of last July, I had to make an emergency pad change and when I rebuilt the caliper I smeared a good amount of copper anti-sieze on the pins, and they were sliding quite freely when I reassembled them.

However..... 10 months later and the same pins look like this......

[Kieran]

However, the offside rear caliper (again, untouched since December 2004 at least) was still free and sliding very well.... And when I took the pins out, there was a good coating of grease still on them.... But what the hell kind of grease is it?!?!?!

[Kieran]

So... There you have it.

Well, there are several posibilities..... Here's the ones I can think of:

1. I haven't inspected the brake pins often enough.

- this is certainly possible, but when you consider the length of time that the brakes SHOULD operate for without being looked at, this isn't likely...

2. The grease I've been using isn't up to spec.

- Certainly possibe. It was copper grease, made by Granville - so it's not the pukka Copaslip, but it *should* be up to the job.... But is it?

3. I've used the wrong type of grease.

Well, the grease on the only pair of pins that were still serviceable was certainly not copper grease.....



More research required.:thinking:

[Kenneth]

I always thought that you just used standard GP (General Purpose) grease on them...:inquisiti :P

[Kieran]

I always thought that you just used standard GP (General Purpose) grease on them...:inquisiti :P

Hmmm..... Don't think so!!:speechles

[I-S]

GP grease will last two or three stops before breaking down from temperature.

I HAVE THE ANSWER

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8015270288&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

On it's way to me

[I-S]

I've also just sold my soul for some new caliper pins from a main stealer.

[I-S]

At the risk of talking to myself.... Camskills sell it too: http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m17b32s1209p5833

[I-S]

Right, I've just finished doing my front brakes.

Both guide pins were very dry, but the lock pins were ok. Kieran used copper grease on them when we sorted them out last time. One guide pin was very stiff indeed.

I replaced all the pins as well as the pads and discs. However, the particularly stiff pin remained so, so I think it's an issue with the seal in that caliper. There were other problems I found too though, like a pad that was badly bound in the caliper. Nearside brake was fine, with perfectly good wear levels on the disc and pads, but the offside disc is really screwed, and some impact on pads (although still loads of material left on them). All pads rather glazed though.

And to the Ceratec. Lovely stuff. It's a translucent yellowy-green grease, and feels more slippery than copper grease. Time will tell how it performs. Brakes aren't squealing though.

I asked about grease this morning at the mitsu dealer when I picked up the pins. They said they use copper grease, or some stuff from millers.

[Kieran]

Mmmm! Interesting info Isaac. Will be interested to see how the cera-tec holds up.

So that's two black marks against copper grease...

[Kieran]

Okay, I think I've finally pinned this one down, worked out what grease(s) we should use, and which ones to avoid.

I must say thankyou to the Mitsubishi FTO boards - Seems they have similar issues, and my information below is distilled from several postings on there - thanks guys.

Curiously, it's not mentioned anywhere much on the MLR though.

Anyway - let's deal with Copaslip and related products first and explain why they're great for nuts, bolts and the back of pads, but no good for sliding pins.
The main reason is that it's an 'anti-sieze' compound - not a lubricant. Yeah, I know we need to stop the pins siezing, but copper slip isn't the way. It's too thick (resulting in 'stiff' operation when new) and when exposed to temperature changes, it quickly degrades - leaving a horrible gloopy mess behind that doesn't help your caliper pins.

Now, you may be wondering why it's good on bolts in high temperature situations. Well, that's easy to explain. You coat the threads in copaslip, and wind them in. Even if the grease fails, the copper in the grease is lift behind. And it's this that stops your nuts/bolts binding up - the copper helps prevent the threads rust-welding together.

Thing is though, it's no good for moving parts - that thin layer of copper won't protect a pin for very long before it's worn away, and then you're in big trouble.

There's another reason why copaslip and such are no good - they cause rubber seals to swell. And if you rememeber, one of the caliper pins has a rubber bush on the end. Get this to swell, and it'll interfere with the operation of the caliper and may possibly 'pop off' the end of the pin!

So..... What to use instead then?

Well, any hydrocarbon-based grease is also out the window. They usually have low melting points, and again, they'll cause seals to swell. So we need a silicone grease that can withstand temperatures upto around 300 degrees and provides a good film of lubricity. You don't need 1000 degree grease on a caliper body - hell, the surface of the pads probably don't get that hot!

Several recommendations have been made to me, I will be using a lithium, high temperature, synthetic based grease from Mobil, though if you can't get it, there's a Amsoil equivalent (I think it's the 2000 racing grease) that's very similar. The reason why I've gone with the mobil is it has a hligh temperature range and has a stable lubricant film, yet it's also very thin for a grease. It has also been recommended to me by a friend who uses it on their car, after similar experiences with Copaslip.

Here's the Mobil stuff:

http://secure.silmid.com/action_main.asp?sat=0&catd=true&fwd=false&part=MOB28001LB

I hasten to add there are other greases that will probably do just as well. Some people have access to more exotic compounds, based on silver and Nickel, so get out there and have a look.


Hope this clears things up a bit.

[amsoil]

Your tenacious research is to be applauded!.
If you cannot get the Mobil military grease (as they are shown out of stock of tubs) and don't wish to spend £35+ for the cartridge I will send you a cartridge of S2000 to try (I have faith here) and its less than 1/3rd of the price of the Military spec Mobil. Have you looked at ZX1 , we stock this too.

Rewgards Don:2thumbsup

[g6acb]

I remember talking to Isaac about this apres Mountain Biking and thought I had posted this before.. but apparently not...

the stuff I used was one of these products

http://www.rocol.com/lubricants/english/maintenance/bearings/

I'm not too sure which one it was as the dude in the Bike shop gave me it in an plastic container when I had my wheel bearings fixed

Not sure if it makes a difference now as you have found the Mobil stuff....

Be Interested to know the results with whichever you go with

[Kieran]

Quick footnote to this thread.

Mintex 'CeraTec' works well on the backs of pads. :2thumbsup

It does NOT work well on brake pins, as Isaac and I discovered! It turns into a sticky goo what stops squeal and also stops your pins sliding well!

[martin_y]

Y I will send you a cartridge of S2000 to try (I have faith here) and its less than 1/3rd of the price of the Military spec Mobil. Have you looked at ZX1 , we stock this too.



Hi all

Just reviving this thread, as I have a sticking caliper right now.

As this thread is a bit old, whats the consensus on what to use, now that its 2 and 1/2 years later?

[Wodjno]

Hi all

Just reviving this thread, as I have a sticking caliper right now.

As this thread is a bit old, whats the consensus on what to use, now that its 2 and 1/2 years later?

I have use this Martin ..
http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m22b0s1397p3884

[Kieran]

When we rebuilt Isaac's brakes we found that ceratec didn't cope too well with the heat and had turned quite thick and gloopy, though it hadn't caused the pins to sieze up.

My little pot of Mobilgrease is still working fine if you can get hold of that anywhere.

[Munta]

dont use copper grease!! have been told by race brakes in mt eden that they have seen ALOT of those glide bolts seize up due to ppl using that. including my own brakes :(

use rubber grease and alot of it lol... any good hydraulic store should sell it.. about $20 for a tube and lasts ages

[Ryan]

Hi all

Just reviving this thread, as I have a sticking caliper right now.

As this thread is a bit old, whats the consensus on what to use, now that its 2 and 1/2 years later?

I used some of Kenneth's lithium grease when we did mine - it was Valvoline as I recall. Blue in colour.

[martin_y]

Well, I bought that one from the camskill link.

Will let you know how I get on.

[eyeballprawn]

I've just been having a read through this old thread while trying to figure out what to use on my sliders, and wondered whether this Inox mx6 grease would be suitable? It's a high temp grease with teflon and safe on rubber seals.



INOX-mx6 ... contains additives to protect against corrosion and oxidation.

... has a temperature range of -30 °C to an extremely high temperature (HAS NO MELTING POINT).

... highly suitable for all bearings, bushes, universals, etc used in Bitumen Transporting and Laying Machinery, Foundries, Paint Baking Ovens and all other high temperature applications.

http://www.inox-mx3.com/product_detail.php?productID=5&pageID=APPLICATIONS

[I-S]

No, it would not - it's PAO based. You need a grease that is not going to cause rubber parts to swell.

In my subsequent research I've uncovered a few suitable greases:

Fuchs Renolit Red Rubber Grease
Permatex 24115
Permatex 24110
Dow-Corning Molykote G807
Dow-Corning Molykote 44
Lucas Girling Red rubber brake grease
Millers red rubber grease
Castrol red rubber grease

Basically any red rubber grease, or the more specific brake pin products from permatex and dow-corning.

[eyeballprawn]

Thanks, that's a great list. I'll see if I can hunt down some of the Permatex stuff locally. They also have a new one, but there's no MSDS for it so I'm not sure how suitable it really is.

Permatex Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant - 24125 (http://www.permatex.com.au/_products/Automotive/lubricants/specialty+lubricants/Permatex+Ceramic+Extreme+Brake+Parts+Lubricant-1427.aspx)

Also, this CRC Sta-Lube Synthetic Brake Caliper Grease (http://www.crcind.com.au/catalogue.nsf/web_brands/Sta-Lube+Synthetic+Brake+Caliper+Grease?openDocument) below is easy to come by around here, it looks like it might be OK. Have you heard of it before?

[I-S]

Both appear right in their descriptions, although I'm slightly nervous about the statement in the TDS of the CRC grease of "provides controlled swell to seals".

The problem is in the design of the seals - if they swell, they exert too much inward pressure on the pin. See diagram in: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20277

The car that was done in that thread was my old GLS, which was then fine from then on until it was written off in march this year.

[AlanDITD]

Man i been putting copper grease on mine for a while now. Thats what ever garage i have seen has used to :(

Granted when i took the brakes appart last time the pins were caked completely had to be scrapped off with a stanley blade.

Was planning on pulling them off again tonight as im fed up off them not working right.

[starky]

Finish line synthetic grease (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/finish-line-grease-tube-med.jpg)
Would this not work well for the guide pins?

spec
Finish Line Synthetic Grease 3.5oz Tube
Top Features of the Finish Line Synthetic Grease 3.5oz Tube
100% Synthetic Premium Teflon Grease
Totally repels water
Won't thicken in cold
Won't oil separate

• Finish Line’s all new technology for 2006 sets an even higher performance standard
• New “functional” thickener totally prevents rust and corrosion (even in saltwater)
• New thickener prevents washout and water emulsification
• New technology withstands higher pressures without sheering
• Tested, approved, and used by leading bearing manufacturers

Contains Teflon and water repellant molecules to prevent rust and ensure maximum lubrication.
Non-toxic
Suitable for use on high and low speed bearings, threads, stems, suspension rings and O-rings
Usable in temperatures ranging from -30C to over 200C

[I-S]

My experience is that that stuff doesn't work well in much - particularly mountain bikes.

[starky]

cool ok so is there any consensus on what to use? Anyone tried anything that works well?

Its just I'm doing my disks and pads either tomorrow of friday and it needs to be something I can get easily from a motor factor. :)

[I-S]

See my post a few posts up with the list in...

[starky]

/duh oh yeh cheers buddy

[eyeballprawn]

I ended up using the green Permatex 24110 when working on my parents Honda Civic over the weekend, it took a bit of hunting but I found it in a larger auto store.

When I do the Legnum I'll use the red Silicone Formula Permatex 24115 instead.

I enquired at a brake store about what they use and they said silicone lube on the slider pins and red rubber grease on the pistons and everything else.

[ANTHONY]

just used some of this but still on the look out for something more high temp............
http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/212

[Kieran]

just used some of this but still on the look out for something more high temp............
http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/212

That's likely to be a hydrocarbon base grease too, Tony. Keep an eye on it.

[ANTHONY]

That's likely to be a hydrocarbon base grease too, Tony. Keep an eye on it. this is the spec..

CV GREASE

APPLICATION

• A lithium-based grease containing molybdenum disulphide (MoS2 ) and molybdenum dithiocarbamate
specially formulated for use in C V joints.

PROPERTIES

• High in extreme pressure additives to give long life under heavy loads.

• Long life for use in well-sealed bearings.

• Oxidation inhibited – Ensures long life in storage.

• Good water resistance – Provides satisfactory lubrication in the presence of water and is not washed
out of bearings.

• Good corrosion protection – Rust inhibited to protect bearing surfaces.

• Chemically compatible with polymeric boot material.

• Includes a laminar solid lubricant which overcomes boundary lubrication.

TYPICAL INSPECTION DATA

Colour Grey/Black
Texture Smooth
NLGI No. 2 (Medium)
Worked penetration 265 – 295
Drop Point °C 180
Range of use °C -20 to 120
4 ball Weld Load (N)
Scar diameter, 40kg 1 hour (mm)
3600
0.440
Oil separation (IP121) 5%

DIRECTIONS FOR USE

• Never over pack the bearing.

• It is sound lubrication practice to remove the old grease before new grease is introduced. If used
grease cannot be removed, Comma C V Lith-Moly grease is generally compatible with other lithium
based greases. When mixed with other grease types, this grease should be satisfactory below an
operating temperature of 80 °C.

HANDLING

• Avoid extremes of temperature.

• Store under cover.

SHELF LIFE

• Five years from date of manufacture.
md 09/04/2009

[swinks]

I've found these one:
Loctite 8065 (980C - but it's a copper base grease), here link: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOCTITE-8065-C5-A-COPPER-ANTI-SEIZE-20G-STICK-EXP-01-14_W0QQitemZ250599538386QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Cars Parts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a58e57ed2
or
DSF-5000 grease (815C synthetic grease), link: http://www.superior-industries.com/dsf_5000_product_122.html

[adaxo]

Yes i know thread from dead (links dead), but any one find the best solution, copper grease or not?? and where to buy??

[bakerboy-2007]

You can use a product called red rubber grease it does the right job ;-)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=red+rubber+grease&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

Good luck

[bakerboy-2007]

Do not use copper grease it will proper F**k up your callipers

[Ryan]

Do not use copper grease it will proper F**k up your callipers

Yup, turns into sticky goo.


Yes i know thread from dead (links dead), but any one find the best solution, copper grease or not?? and where to buy??

A lithium based grease would be recommended.

[Nick Mann]

I use a high temp red lithium grease.

[VR457]

Red rubber grease works fine. And it's cheap to boot.

[amsoil]

We have just received a few cases of Amsoils very latest Polymeric grease, Its not only heavy duty but won't squeeze out or loose its 'seal' around the pin and carrier. Its now what we strongly recommend for this application; See the tests here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqvq5IHjHTg The price will be £11.50 for a cartridge when I get the price put on the web site in the next day here http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/amsoil_truck_grease.html I believe this will finally end everybodys problems here.

[adaxo]

We have just received a few cases of Amsoils very latest Polymeric grease, Its not only heavy duty but won't squeeze out or loose its 'seal' around the pin and carrier. Its now what we strongly recommend for this application; See the tests here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqvq5IHjHTg The price will be £11.50 for a cartridge when I get the price put on the web site in the next day here http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/amsoil_truck_grease.html I believe this will finally end everybodys problems here.

Oh noo, just place big order on opie oils, I pick this product

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-999-fuchs-renolit-red-rubber-grease-grease-for-use-on-elastomers.aspx

can this be use to grease calliper pistons ?

Asking because I gone get this refurbish kit

http://www.seinsa.es/en/productos/productos3.asp?Equ=D4427