Dyno day results

[GroundControl]

Well that was an interesting outcome.

In short:

buy a stock prefacelift VR4
leave it that way :D


Will scan my chart in when I get the chance, but have attached a photo of the final figures


206.6 kW - brad's mum's monaro
156.2 kW - ? (200sx)
161 kW - mpau009 (prefacelift, boost controller, ...?)
170.6 kW - Jaimz (prefacelift, no mods)
141.5 kW - Adrian (Forester)
153 kW - Kenneth (facelift, intercooler, ...?, was misfiring)
152.8 kW - dickytim (prefacelift, exhaust)
174.6 kW - maori_by_nature (prefacelift, exhaust)
92.8 kW - Gly (Legnum ST)
148.4 kW - William (facelift, intercooler)
172 kW - GroundControl (prefacelift, no mods)

Someone else can fill in/correct me on that list :)

[mpau009]

4) was Jaimz strangely fast prefacelift
5) was Adrian (non member) Subaru (stock)
10) was williams new facelift, but not sure of the online name

[g6acb]

Handy web page to convert Kw in BHP here.........

http://www.rb20det.com/kwtobhp.html

take it these figures are at the wheel....

[You See]

Yep, a great day had by all...and a few surprises to say the least.
...Pity for the learner drivers leading the pack *cough Richard cough* :P

[mpau009]

Yeah, top marks to You See for doing the hard yards:2thumbsup , i had a great time.

If only the camera hadn't gone flat right as my best run was on./Grrr

I'm sure we'll be in for an interesting rematch in a while. I'd be keen to see what Kens car would have made without its electrics issues... Maybe once Brad and UC get themselves together the three of you should get a run on the same dyno.

[Gly]

mpau.... did you forget something before you left??

my car was the loudest and best sounding... so i win overall :D

[mpau009]

mpau.... did you forget something before you left??

Damm it!/pan /dunce I was just too keen to get home and rip things apart, i'm just about to cut that hole in the same place as yours.

Anyhoo, i guess you might as well hold on to it until the next meet, i still can't afford to paint it. If not i'll ring you when i need it, and come and get it.

Any chance you can post up a pic of where the flexible hosing went on your intake? i didn't have a proper look. Does it draw from the vent in your bumper?

Iv been trying to jam a piece of 3"ID flexi aluminium down between the light and radiator like i think i saw on one of the UK cars, to draw from next to the intercooler, but its not working very well. Lucky iv got so much of it...

[Gly]

haha. sweet as..

i went home and rip ot my stereo and fitted my new one..

mine just goes down to the vent directly in front of it... right next to my spot light

[OSiRiS]

wtf? So the pre-facelift standard VR4s had more power atw then the facelifts?

Certainly that can't be right according to Mitsi standard specs?

[GroundControl]

Well there's something not quite right happening I think (at least in my case).

As far as I know the car is standard, but my boost was peaking at 12.7psi (whether that's due to something I don't know about, or something not working quite right - I'm not sure).

Was going to scan in my dyno plot at work today, but our printer/scanner/copier appears to have caught fire. /pan

[dreamer]

Hey guys.
Sorry I didn't end up making it.
After beating M_B_N in a couple of inpromptu races last night, I Was fast asleep (slept through my alarm clock!)

I'm annoyed at myself for not coming to watch, and I certainly should of had a run to see how I stack up against Sam and David.

Glad to see everyone enjoyed themselves.


I saw OsiRiS's new bonnet this evening, looks mighty Fine :2thumbsup

[OSiRiS]

I saw OsiRiS's new bonnet this evening, looks mighty Fine :2thumbsup

lol what the? Did you drive past my house or something? :P

[dreamer]

lol what the? Did you drive past my house or something? :P


I drive past your house most days!

I'm the silver Pre-Facelift Wagon with the Black Vinyl strip down the side with RalliArt and TurbsWork written on it.

Oh yeah... and I'm always staring and drooling at your car. :happy:

I saw the photos you put online earlier today - looked Cool, and I have to say It looks 10x better in the flesh.

very PHAT.

:pimp2:

[jaimz]

Yeah, thanks for a great morning guys. Especially You See for the excellent organisation, moolah-handling etc.
Can't account for either my or Ground Control's results. Standard everything :speechles

Nice to throw a spanner in the works for you brainy dudes yeah..? :evilgrin:

btw, Brad said that Robin at Torque Performance was going to pdf him all the result curves, so I'm pretty sure they'll be up soon. Either that or Brad will be able to draw them in Paint from memory! :2thumbsup

[richy rich]

OK so 172kw works out to be 230bhp at wheels that is good results

so stoke pre face vr4 is supposed to be 260bhp at flywheel
so we loose 30bhp through the transmission.

im happy with this

[GroundControl]

Mine is a pre-facelift manual, which I believe is supposed to be 280hp stock (I think only pre-facelift autos were 260hp?)

But according to my plot I'm running more boost than I understood was standard, so taking 172kW mightn't be a good benchmark for a standard car (or maybe it is, proving that manual pre-facelifts are just the best sort /yes :D :2thumbsup)

[mpau009]

Just to reignite the debate, i was thinking, could it be a recall issue? From memory wasn't there some ECU related recall at some point? Or could be something else along those lines?

Its either that or i'm back to the boost control solenoid issue idea.

20Kw at the wheels is a decent variation, it must be something significant.

[GroundControl]

Didn't have the use of a scanner in the end, so made do with a camera instead - here's my dyno chart /yes

Any ideas on the boost curve? Someone suggested a 'sticky' wastegate perhaps :inquisiti

And the AFR seems quite rich, going from 13 down to a touch over 10...


And the bit at the bottom that I chopped off shows:
Ramp Rate: 12.5
Lead Time: 8
Air Temp: 23 deg C
Rel. Humidity: 59%
Air Pressure: 1015mb
Correction Factor: 0.994 (Turbo)

[You See]

Yeah, thanks for a great morning guys. Especially You See for the excellent organisation, moolah-handling etc.
Always keen to take your money!...too bad I couldn't keep it! /Grrr

[Wodjno]

OK so 172kw works out to be 230bhp at wheels that is good results

so stoke pre face vr4 is supposed to be 260bhp at flywheel
so we loose 30bhp through the transmission.

im happy with this

I would say closer to 140kw = 177bhp ATW.. Loss of 83bhp for standard post facelift :inquisiti

[bradc]

Robin will send them to me on monday, I'll have them up straight away.

I was surprised at the number of results that were up around 170kw, all of those cars were running at somewhere around 12psi, which is of course really strange considering that the popular belief is that the stock boost is only around 8-9psi. Most of the boost curves were similar to Sam's, peaking early on then rising again towards the end.

William's car had a very very smooth boost curve, it got up to 8psi then slowly dropped to 7psi by the time it was at max power which was only 148kw.

Noones AFR ratio was impressive either, most of the cars were around 10.5-11 which indicates that a good bit more power could come out of the car with some proper tuning.

The thing that we need to figure out now is why were all of these cars peaking at 12psi so late in the rev range when they were all (boosting) stock? Maybe as the wastegate actuators get old they start to have problems holding a steady boost through the rev range? To be honest there wasn't a fair showing of facelift cars, Kenneths car was picking up power much quicker than the guys that got 170+ but his car started to missfire quite badly, which he had thought was fuel cut but it turns out it may be a fault to do with the spark plugs.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10961 Here is my result from an earlier run when my car had the exhausts done, but nothing else.

When me and Uc have our cars back we will pop in there one day and get our cars on it, should be good fun to see what we have :)

[maori_by_nature]

After beating M_B_N in a couple of inpromptu races last night, I Was fast asleep (slept through my alarm clock!)


Come on now let's b honest the only reason you won was cause i had my 130kph limiter in.... i.e. my cosin bitching and moaning everytime i went over 130...

i was really surprised with my result and with the other stock cars. but all in all it was a good day and i think every1 really enjoyed it.

hay gly where's all the foto's you snaped up?

[dickytim]

I have a theory that the boost is NOT correct as they used the boost solonoid (sp) Is it possible that there is a correction factor that our ECU's use to correct this, my boost was 9.9psi but my gauge has never read much over 8PSI especially where the curve is on the second raise.

Scanning my plot now, to say the least I am not happy with the result, I may have to have the guys have a look at it when I am having the car serviced, as like all good motorsports type people I need an excuse for my poor performance.

One thing that Robin did say was that in his experience the VR4's suffer very badly from pod filters and that heat in the engine bay is the biggest problem sometimes tha car can retard the engine but upto 3 degree's which is massive.

Can any one recall what the power figure was that he stated for every degree of retardation ???

[william]

My boost guage confirms the figures on the dyno printout. It seems to me it is all in the boost. The cars not making good power like mine and Dicky's had low peak boost. I have a K&N filter, turbo back exhaust, Trust intercooler, low boost and low power!! I have a boost controller on order and will take it for a follow-up dyno run and report back after installing it.

[mpau009]

Yeah, i was interested in the heat thing as well, i went home and had a play around with some 3 inch pipe, and put the front section of the stock box back on, i want to cut a hole similar to gly's, but will hold off until i can get a proper cold box made up. But it certainly seems much better at the moment

Also, it was interesting how much better the electronic controller seemed to be at controlling the boost levels, there is less than 1psi of variation, and the values i got were almost exactly what was set, and reads on the gauge, compare that to Groundcontrols? it must be something in that area.

What do you all think about the way my power curve flattens off?? i think the stock exhaust and bad position of the HKS might have limited it.

BTW, i think the tech said it could be as much as 15/20Kw from taking in 50/60 degree air.

Also, i noticed that my runs were at 19/20 degrees, where as the latter ones were as much as 24 degrees.

[Gly]

heres the pics i took...

http://thegspot.orcon.net.nz/DynoDay-Small/

[You See]

Good pic of M_B_N....and that's him on a good day! /haz

[dickytim]

Out of interest what fuel was everone running ?

[GroundControl]

BP Ultimate

[Gly]

i was running pac'n slave 95 octane gas...
there supplier is BP

this must be the reason why i was 60ish kw down on everyone else!!

[richy rich]

I would say closer to 140kw = 177bhp ATW.. Loss of 83bhp for standard post facelift :inquisiti
the 172kw was a pre facelift manual (i just assumed it was an auto) so that is 280bhp so that is a loss of 50bhp

but id also say about 80ish bhp for an auto (so we agree on some thing thats a first)/Grrr :thinking: :2thumbsup

[Springie]

Does thats intial list (post #1) leave out boost controllers as a mod? or did no one have one?

Be good to get a full list of mods for each and the compare, see what makes the most difference etc

[GroundControl]

My initial post was based on my understanding of the mods those cars had (but I don't know them all, and some are definitely incomplete, and possibly wrong, so I'm happy to update/correct it). I had put a question mark where I was unsure.

[bradc]

Richard, I think he said about 10hp per degree, but that might be just a guess on their behalf.

I think the key thing is probably going to be boost, things like decat and exhaust didn't make much differance.

[dickytim]

actually heat in the engine bay did seem to be a big factor, I have thought of my excuse and a possible reason for my poor result, I idled the car for 5 min before it went on the dyno, and if 10degree under bonnet temperature is equal to 1 degree of retardation, as indicated and that equals 10hp/kw which ever it was then that could be a reason for the different results as well.

We'll see next time, BTW I fitted Kenny's boost tap and have a noticable increase I would be interested to see what it will do on the dyno now :)

Also if I get a spare bonnet will see what cutting holes in the old one will do for air flow etc.

Any one want to guess where the holes should be to "suck" hot air out of the engine bay ?

Similar to where the evo's have theirs ?

Evo a cut out about where the cold air is drawn in the bonnet.

[bradc]

I like where the vents are on my bonnet, the radiator fans blow air straight out through the vents, as for an air intake, the evo style is ok, you can also start drilling holes beneath the battery tray

[maori_by_nature]

Good pic of M_B_N....and that's him on a good day! /haz

i just seen that lmao gly did you have 2 put that on..... REALLY???

[You See]

i just seen that lmao gly did you have 2 put that on..... REALLY???

hay gly where's all the foto's you snaped up?
Note "ALL THE FOTO'S" ...haha /pan

[bradc]

hah, I thought that pic was very funny :)

[Gly]

i just seen that lmao gly did you have 2 put that on..... REALLY???

yes i did... you wanted all pic's :evilgrin:

anyway i got a short vid of your car on the dyno...
and a longer one of mine.

anyone wanna recommend some easy compression software.
its in *.MPG

[Wodjno]

the 172kw was a pre facelift manual (i just assumed it was an auto) so that is 280bhp so that is a loss of 50bhp

but id also say about 80ish bhp for an auto (so we agree on some thing thats a first)/Grrr :thinking: :2thumbsup

Yes thats right Richy.. I agree your wrong /pan :happy:

Your missing the point here.. Ground Controls car can't being taken as a benchmark for a standard VR4 as his car was boosting at 12.7 psi(standard is around 6-7psi). So calculating has 172kw to 233bhp and taking that away from 280bhp is not going to give you a true estimate of transmission and 4wd losses.
If you see where i'm coming from... :inquisiti

[bradc]

If you look at it that way wodjno, somewhere around 150kw is about right, but the strange thing is that mbn, jaimz, groundcontrol all have 100% stock cars with absolutely no mods that any of us can see.

[Wodjno]

150kw for a Manual and around 140kwh for aa Auto(pre facelift)

It could be chipped.. This would not be visible.. 12.7psi says that something is not standard :2thumbsup

[GroundControl]

Heh well I'm not complaining :2thumbsup (so long as it doesn't blow up /pan)

Anyone got any ideas about the big gulf in my boost pressure half way up (see chart (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9249&d=1142669703) on page 1 of the thread)? Not that it's huge - it drops back to 9psi which is above standard anyway, but it's certainly not holding steady all the way up...

[dickytim]

the first peak is where the peak torque is then it drops slightly and raises again for peak power.

Could it be the efficiency of the turbo is really good at 3-4000rpm then the pure air flow of the top end causes it to rise again ?

Any thoughts on that theory ?

[bradc]

wodjno, but what are the chances that 3 cars which are otherwise 100% totally stock all have hidden boost controllers which all raise the boost to a similar value right at the point where max power is?

Richard, I'm still sticking with the wastegate getting a little slack/sticky/lose theory, but your one might be right too

[GroundControl]

the first peak is where the peak torque is then it drops slightly and raises again for peak power.
Wouldn't it be more likely that the torque and power are peaking because of the boost peaks, rather than being the cause of them? (My torque curve looks like a flattened version of the boost curve anyway, there are two small peaks on it too)

[mpau009]

Right, i still don't get it./pan

If it was purely a boost thing, then i can't understand why my top power was so limited, as the boost was on par with GC and Jaimz. The only difference that you can see is my HKS intake. Surely that can't account for -12+WKw even if it is sucking hot air?

On my graph it rocks up a little faster than the two 'stock' cars, but flat lines at 155/160Kw from 85KPH to 135.:inquisiti

Both of their graphs have signifiantly slower build up, but peak at the same point- i was boosting about 11.3psi. Which i think was very similar to Jaimz.

The other thing i wanted to check, did all the cars have AYC or TC? I'm grasping at straws:5shots: , but it might be another cause? Especially on a 4wd Dyno, or just in drivetrain inertia?

The other thing, if GC and Jaimz had any sort of malfunction or fault, i think their graphs were disturbingly similar... both boost and power curves.:thinking:

If we can't figure out what causing this, then i might just have to pretend that it didn't happen... La la la ... i can't hear you.../pan :baby: :smoking: :bigcry:

[OSiRiS]

Or just accept the fact that pre-facelifts are the shizzle :D

[Kenneth]

Right, i still don't get it./pan

If it was purely a boost thing, then i can't understand why my top power was so limited, as the boost was on par with GC and Jaimz. The only difference that you can see is my HKS intake. Surely that can't account for -12+WKw even if it is sucking hot air?



yep, it would have... your ecu would also have retarded timing because of the hot intake temps, resulting in power reduction.


Or just accept the fact that pre-facelifts are the shizzle :D

or maybe not enough facelifts ran. Mine had electrical misfire and the other facelift that ran got 8.0psi max.

With the results recorded there can be no comparison between facelift and prefacelift other than the facelift actually had its boost control working properly. :P

The guy who took the dyno said 1psi is usually good for around 10KW ATW. if that is true, the facelift would have done around 180kw at 12psi.

[jaimz]

I think the key is with the boost.
I'm really glad Ground Control had similar stats because it reduces the likelihood of there being something WRONG with my car! :2thumbsup

I can't remember what maori_by_nature's curve looked like, but at least 2 of the 3 fastest cars of the day had practically the same boost at practically the same point.

So, the info on my car:
'98 Pre-facelift 5spd Legnum
Completely standard in every way (as far as I'm aware)
Running Mobil 8000 fuel
BP Oil (semi-synth I think)
205/55/16 tyres
76,000 on the clock, had the car serviced by Mitsubishi at 75,000.

I'll get info on the ECU I've got one night this week. It seems to me that this is the most likely upgrade (if anything).

The engine heat at the intake is a good point mpau, do we have dyno curves for any other cars with the factory intake..? If this is the key, maybe a high flow cartridge air filter to fit in the factory box would be the way to go...

[mpau009]

Jaimz, do you think you could post up your figures for peak power? Just using my eye and a ruler, mine was

160.9Kw
112KPH
700Nm (max 900)
A/F 10.5
Boost 11.3psi (max 13.2)
Airtemp 20deg

Id be keen to see a side by side.

[jaimz]

Sorry brother, I didn't bring the print-out into work today.
I'll post them tomorrow :happy:

[dickytim]

10.5 air fuel is too high, you want 11 or more mine does dip down there aswell

[Kenneth]

10.5 air fuel is too high, you want 11 or more mine does dip down there aswell

between 11.5 and 11.7 is safe + you get good power. :D my AFR was just about perfect! pity about the misfires...

took a look at my front plugs today... centre plug looked shagged, the outers didnt look so great eithier. time for some new ones i think. hopefully that will solve the problems.

[mpau009]

between 11.5 and 11.7 is safe + you get good power. :D my AFR was just about perfect! pity about the misfires...

Do you think that would be a result of the octane booster? Or the warmer air?
I take it that means it was running too rich.

Also, when you say 'safe' whats the factory standard? I think the guys doing the dyno were talking about knocking, but they didn't say anything to me.

[Kenneth]

Do you think that would be a result of the octane booster? Or the warmer air?
I take it that means it was running too rich.

Also, when you say 'safe' whats the factory standard? I think the guys doing the dyno were talking about knocking, but they didn't say anything to me.

could have been a combination. I wouldn't bother with octane booster as all the information I have read, none says that it works. Plenty say its a waste of money though. I heard them say somethnig about knock too, could be to do with the intake temp. however it wouldnt have been as bad as usual because they were running with the bonnet open. intake temps are a fairly common cause of knock.
Problem is that with the pod filter, the ECU would 'learn' that it needed to retard the ignition and probably would not have reversed that for the dyno run, even though you had better air with the bonnet open.

as for your AFR, standard the ECU aims to go around 10:1 at full power. which is just way rich.

[bradc]

Kenneth is right, the ecu is programmed to run very rich, normally around 10.5 at max power, if that was raised to 11.5-12.0 then you would see an increase of around 10kw as well.

Robin didn't send me the pdf's today, I'll ask him tomorrow about it.

[jaimz]

Hey Brad,
Still no news from Robin re: dyno sheet pdf huh..? I'm starting to feel bad that I haven't brought mine into work and read off the stats to compare with Mike's :embarasse (sorry dude).

[OSiRiS]

Still no news from Robin re: dyno sheet pdf huh..?

Not surprised lol

[bradc]

I forgot sorry, I'll email robin again and ask him for them

[caishanvr4]

Alright guys, I aint hijacking or anything but what do you make of these results, car has k&n Panel filter,de-cat and a boost controller that didnt work at all /pan

[Kenneth]

I find those graphs a bit less user-friendly than the ones we got at Torque Performance...

Other than that, looks about standard really. nothing ultra special. nice clean graph though, so it looks like the car is running ok :) (lol, wait till you see mine!)

[mpau009]

Looks very similar to Williams facelift with the exhaust, similar numbers and boost curve too. Interesting to note that your graph has revs across the bottom, where ours had road speed, and that yours was in second gear.

Its amazing just how much Kenneths graph jumps around, considering it didn't sound all that bad on the dyno, -just a bit of a warble in the exhaust note... still should go great once its fixed.:afro:

[bradc]

I agree with you Kenneth, I think that the Torque Perf graphs are the easiest ones to read and follow out of any of the ones I've ever seen.

Your graph is very similar to the cars that stayed at a low even boost throughout the range, nice and stable.

[Kenneth]

Its amazing just how much Kenneths graph jumps around, considering it didn't sound all that bad on the dyno, -just a bit of a warble in the exhaust note... still should go great once its fixed.:afro:

Yeah, it was odd... for some reason my car just sounded really mellow compared to most. Still, it looked like it was ramping up the power nicely! until it started misfiring anyway :P

Will deffinatly be interested to see what it does when the misfire is fixed :afro:

[GroundControl]

Here's a couple of the vids that brad dropped off today (shrunk down a bit to allow me to upload them to the site)

[ShadyNZer]

these work for anyone else? says "Cannot allocate memory because no size has been set." for me

[Kenneth]

Works fine for me

[GroundControl]

I may have mucked up the previous lot - they don't seem to work to well on my home PC either... try these instead if the ones above don't work...

[bradc]

Any chance you could post up the pics on your site Sam? You don't need to worry about the video's too much :) Are you going to put the pics that you took up on there too?

[ShadyNZer]

sweet works for me now...

[caishanvr4]

Thanks for the input guys :2thumbsup, would be intresting to see what figure it would put out if i had some boost :inquisiti

[Ryan]

Just viewing this thread for this first time (thanks Sam) and I must say that the Holden Monaro does sound quite cool at high RPM!