My baby not starting

[BraindG]

does anyone know where the oxygen or cat sensor is? - been speaking to a few people today about my car, and the general consensus is that it may not be getting the right readings, or not letting in any fuel - or that the exhaust is blocked somehow.. which would not let the gasses escape.. which would kinda explain why the car wont kick into life.. but just keeps turning over..

but, as i previously said, might just be because the battery hasn't got enough power.. if I still cant get it going tonight, im going to that the exhaust off again.. see if it will start then..

anyone got any other ideas?

[Nick VR4]

Mmm try looking at these first
Just incase when you were doing other stuff you didnt dislodge anything
Fully charge battery or jump start from another battery
Is petrol getting through
Is a spark getting to plugs ie coil connected

[enigma]

The O2 sensor is located on the exhaust pipe just after the 2 downpipes connect. If you are not getting an O2 reading your car will not run very happily! Try connecting the exhaust, disconnecting the battery to perform a reset and try again.

[Roadrunner]

The Lambda INSERT INTO post VALUES (O2) sensor is in the exhaust but I don't know where on the VR-4. On my Legacy RS-B, it was between the downpipe cats and the main exhaust cat INSERT INTO post VALUES (three cats :rolleyes: , no wonder it went like a scalded ... ;) )

There's an air flow sensor in the air intake, between the filter and the inlet manifold, under the square bit INSERT INTO post VALUES (sorry, not near my car just now and relating from memory ;) )

I doubt if either of these would prevent the car from starting though. Problems with either would more likely be noticed through the ECU going into fail-safe mode with a corresponding drop in power.

The only way you can really check these, though, is by hooking up to the Mitsi diagnostic computer :INSERT INTO post VALUES ( so really last-gasp stuff. Lots of other things to check first as Nick says.

Brian

[edited to correct my technical ineptitude! ;) ]

[BraindG]

i should have added this actually..
the plugs are sparking.. atleast two of the front ones are..

im going to take the fuel pipe off tongiht, and put it into a jar.. see if its pumping fuel...

ill have a look for this sensor... is it just a cable - that plugs into the exhaust?

ill have a look at those suggestions tongiht.. thanks!..

if anyone else has got any other ideas.. im open to suggestions!


p.s. i have two new national racing discs, and 4 ferodo ds2500 sitting on my desk here at work :cool1:

[BraindG]

there is fuel pumping round the system.. took one of the pipes off. and it pissed out everywhere..

no smell coming from exhaust..

battery now fully charged...

any other ideas?

[BraindG]

oh, and cant find anywhere where a sensor would plug in..

is it a sensor? or a pipe? going to somewhere?

[-LegnumVR4-]

You have all the pipes connected like the one i said about that connect to the throttle body INSERT INTO post VALUES (the small 300mm u had a photo of in your hand)? The one i was taking about has something to do with the fuel pressure signal.

[BraindG]

things are not looking good im afraid to say...

there was a bit of milky residue on the oil cap.. and the oil itself seems to be a bit watery.. yet its not really a milky colour. so.. not sure.. might be that head gaskets gone.. might be cracked. might be condensation might be nothing.. i really don’t know as yet..

but if there was a problem with the head gasket.. would this stop the engine starting?

im going to call out the AA tomorrow.. see what they have to say for it.. im gonna say its just back from garage after having belts changed.. but now it wont start..

on the bright side.. got my discs and pads on.. looks pretty cool.. INSERT INTO post VALUES (but on the down side my bleeder pipe on passenger side is snapped off :INSERT INTO post VALUES ( )





:Cry1: :Cry1:

[BraindG]

Originally posted by -LegnumVR4-
You have all the pipes connected like the one i said about that connect to the throttle body INSERT INTO post VALUES (the small 300mm u had a photo of in your hand)? The one i was taking about has something to do with the fuel pressure signal.

i compared it to Zedys car INSERT INTO post VALUES (he was just round here with kammy earlier tonight) and im pretty sure its in the right place..

if you look at it.. you have two solenoid type things.. the one on the right has a 1 pipe coming out from the bottom facing towards the right INSERT INTO post VALUES (looking from front of car) this goes into the throttle body at the front INSERT INTO post VALUES (facing the car) at the bottom of the throttle body.. im pretty sure zedys was the same..

the solenoid thingy on the left has nothing coming out of it now INSERT INTO post VALUES (used to be two pipes); cos im under the impression the EVC has replaced these pipes..

then you have the pipe coming from the black round thing INSERT INTO post VALUES (excuse my lame descriptions) at the far back on the right.. INSERT INTO post VALUES (looking from the front) this goes into the pipe at the top of the throttle body...

hope that makes sense

[BraindG]

if the AA man has no clue.. im going to get a compression pressure tester.. or maybe he has one!?... in which case

does anyone know what the compression pressure should be?

ive got a technical manual here, and it states 12.5 Bar - however this is for the 6A12 engine.. but the 6A12 engine is what we used to align the timing belts..

oh, and another thing i could look at is the timing belts.. see if they are still lined up ok..

what a nightmare i tell yah..

[Kieran]

Originally posted by BraindG

but if there was a problem with the head gasket.. would this stop the engine starting?


Unlikely. Don't forget that on a Vee engine, you've two head gaskets. I'd be surprised if both of them blew simultaneously.

Anyway, when a gasket blows, it usually knocks one cylinder out and maybe causes a leak on the one next to it. My Fiat blew it's gasket along 2 and 3, and it still fired - with only two cylinders at full compression. If you have got a blow, i'd guess you've still got at least 3 or 4 cylinders on the go - that should be enough to get a INSERT INTO post VALUES (rough) idle.

One scary thought.... You said you got the engine fired, but you stopped it again, and that you used the 6A12 timing belts settings... You're sure they're the same, aren't you?...

[BraindG]

Originally posted by Kieran
One scary thought.... You said you got the engine fired, but you stopped it again, and that you used the 6A12 timing belts settings... You're sure they're the same, aren't you?...

if you seen the manual there was only one conclusion.. the one for the 6A12 was the ONLY one that matched up.. it could only go that way.. so yeah.. im very confident its fine in that sense..
but remember its been running.. zedy seen the proof :) i taped it...

once all that easy start crap was burnt off, it ran fine on its own.. idles reved up.. seemed fine.. then when we put exhaust back on.. it stopped working..

[zedy1]

Originally posted by Kieran
Unlikely. Don't forget that on a Vee engine, you've two head gaskets. I'd be surprised if both of them blew simultaneously.

Anyway, when a gasket blows, it usually knocks one cylinder out and maybe causes a leak on the one next to it. My Fiat blew it's gasket along 2 and 3, and it still fired - with only two cylinders at full compression. If you have got a blow, i'd guess you've still got at least 3 or 4 cylinders on the go - that should be enough to get a INSERT INTO post VALUES (rough) idle.

One scary thought.... You said you got the engine fired, but you stopped it again, and that you used the 6A12 timing belts settings... You're sure they're the same, aren't you?...

dont forget the oher three are on the other end
and just to confirm it barry it was running

[pickigar]

If the lambda sensor in the exhaust, usually in the downpipe was sensing a rich mixture it would adjust the fuelling accordingly. The best way to find out is to unplug the sensor and try to start the car. This is not always easy as they corrode. If it is the lambda sensor then a new one is about £60. I had the same problem on a BMW. I started it with an old exhaust and it ran fine, but when I changed the exhaust it would not start - until I unplugged the lambda sensor!!!


Also, wouldn't worry too much about a little moisture under the oil cap. if the engine is not running regularly then it will do that this time of year!!


Gary

[BraindG]

cheers.

but where the bloody hell is this sensor? anyone know where it is on the vr4? i ran my hands all around the exhaust and could not feel it.. this was on both down pipes..

anyone know?... waaaaah...
but i supose it makes sense.. when the exhaust was off it worked.. cos the sensor was picking up fresh air?
now its picking up crap coming through....

hmmm..

[BraindG]

If its the same as the FTO the lambda sensor should be in the downpipes before the cat, and will come up in the drivers side footwell

will look tomorrow

[-LegnumVR4-]

Between the back turbo's down pipe and the cat. The insert that u screw into is sort of on the top, more to the left or right of the pipe. Unplug the sensor from the main wiring loom which is connected inside the car INSERT INTO post VALUES (has a small rubber boot on it which seals it from the outside) then screw it into the pipe then connect the plug up again or u'll just twist up the wire when u screw it into the pipe.

Rhys

[BraindG]

cheers rhys!... will update later on tongiht

[zedy1]

any luck :Ponder:

[BraindG]

NO!.. but.. unlike when you were here.. its trying to start atleast 3 times.. this is since i put the new fuel in.. i honestly believe that petrol has a shelf life, and its no where near 2 years.. i used to leave strimmer in garage over winter.. take it out in summer and it wouldnt work.. then i would put new fuel in and it would start first time..

the proof has kinda been in the pudding with the vr4.. when you were here zedy.. the car wasnt even trying to kick in was it? now its trying atleast 3 times.. initially just the once.. then after a few turns twice.. now im up to 3 times..

have faith!.. ill be there in the vr4.. /crosses fingers..

[BraindG]

oh, and when i came home from work.. i checked the timing.. its all bang on!.. not moved..

[Brind]

Moisture and crap in your tank mixed together is a possibilty.

As well as new fuel, try an additive like Redex for example and a new fuel filter for good measure.
Your plugs and leads may be subjected to moisture, try cleaning them and spraying them with WD40.

[BraindG]

yup.. will do mark.. honestly i feel closer now than i ever have.. tomorrow night im sticking the battery in it from the mondeo.. and adding more fuel..
not sure i can get a fuel filter at this late stage.. but no harm in phoning around i suppose..

heres hoping! otherwise ill be online late friday looking for the next train down :Cry1:

[Brind]

It's hard to suggest anything because there is so many sensors etc, but the fact it actually started once is a very good sign which means all plugs etc and sensors must be correct.
So fuel sounds to be the key problem..

Things to check if you haven't already:
Fault in fuel line.
Faulty fuel pressure regulator.
Faulty fuel pump.
Fuel pump, fuse/relay.
Air leak inlet Manifold.
Idle speed regulator.
Blocked filter after sucking old fuel.

[-LegnumVR4-]

Did i see in one of your photos that u had the battery leads still connected to the battery from the when you were charging the battery? My friend managed to flood his engine by doing that. Maybe the other battery will help.

Rhys

[BraindG]

i went and got a compression tester.. done all the front plugs.. they are fine..

i now know where the lambda sensor - and also where the connection is in the car.. removed that / disconnected battery etc etc nothing..

took off the exhaust - used easy start.. and it started.. but it must have been running on easy start.. then wouldn’t start again..

it all points to fuel.. but how.. where.. what..

when the aa man was round he plugged this LED thingy me bob into on of the injector plugs.. the strange thing is.. when you start the car the LED flashes like mad.. like 2-3 times a second.. but after about a second or two.. it slows RIGHT down to a pulse every second.. we came to the conclusion that this might be because the engine is flooded.. and the ECU knows this.. so it cuts the amount of fuel going into the engine.. but how the bloody hell am i supposed to "unflood" it?!.. we tried disconnecting all the plugs to the jets.. and turned it over for a while. in an attempt to burn off any excess fuel... this didn’t work..

bumping it was also a very weird situation. you can hear it in gear.. going round and round.. it sounds fine to be honest.. but.. it just doesn’t kick into life.. when i floor the pedal, you can hear a pud pud noise.. but that’s it.. nothing else happens..

it has to be fuel.. unless of course the timing is ever so slightly out..
no-one seems to know what the problem is.. and how to sort the f’ing thing.. only one thing might.. and that’s that Diagnostics machine hidden away at Mitsubishi.. looks like that’s where she’s gonna have to go :INSERT INTO post VALUES (

but as i mentioned in that other post.. im just about to go out.. remove all the spark plugs.. and hope the petrol evaporates over night..

:Cry1:

[BraindG]

right.. ive just taken the whole top off.. and removed all the spark plugs..

i dont think it would make "that" much difference.. but.. the back plugs.. were a completly different make.. and they were all rusty and ****..there was that much charcoal on them and it formed to a point on the L shaped bits.. ive just tried to scratch it off.. but.. maybe its by design.. not sure.. i should have checked this.. my bad!.. never assume.. always be suspicious.. INSERT INTO post VALUES (crap../slaps forehead)

so.. the car is now sitting there breathing.. hopefully any excess fuel will be gone in the morning.. i have the other three new plugs.. ill put them in in the morning and see what happens..

what a mare!

[BraindG]

what you think? the newINSERT INTO post VALUES (ish) ones were on the front head... the new ones were the ones i picked up in the garage...

[Simon]

They wouldn't have helped your situation! change them.

[Brind]

Grey-brown deposits is the best condition!

If there is a build up of carbon and they are dry and black it means over rich fuel mixture.

That hot looking ring around the white part isn't a good sign! obviously the plug is breaking down.
New plugs are advisable.