Odd sound? or not an odd sound?

[Brind]

I took delivery of my VR-4 today, INSERT INTO post VALUES (only just bought it) and I've noticed what I think is an odd sound coming from the engine.
It's a ticking sound but it's intermittent.
It is not the injectors and I'm sure it isn't the camshaft as it isn't permanent?

After buying the car it appears to have done an extra 150 miles ish?? I allowed for its journey down so I'm very suspicious where these extra 150 miles have come from, the sound I'm hearing now was not there before, I'm sure of it.

I've just recorded the sound of the engine it is just over 1 mb in size, and 36 seconds long.
I'd appreciate it if you guys could hear it and tell me if it's different to what you hear.
It is the loud ticking, if you listen carefully the ticking fades half way through and then comes back and then fades again just before it ends.

I just want to make sure that it's sorted now rather than 2 months down the line and then they will tell me my camshaft is up the creek and it's gonna cost me stupid money!!!



Right click and save as.. (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.brindley1/vr4.wav)

[BraindG]

Sounds to me like the tappets, i had that problem, couple things you can do, get the engine flushed several times INSERT INTO post VALUES (mine was done countless times) or have them replaced...

is it there when you rev it? or just when idle?


but thats my idea..any one else?

[Brind]

Pretty much through out the rev range, but it fades to nothing which is strange, typically it sounded worse when I recorded it.:rolleyes:

[BraindG]

when warm also? or just when cold?

i still get it for about 20 seconds in the morning, then its gone.

I used to get it for ages, all through my drive INSERT INTO post VALUES (50 miles to blackpool); and when i got to work it was still there.

[Brind]

I've been playing with the car since it arrived lol:cool: so I've only heard it run when it is at running temp.

So I'd guess it's there all the time.:INSERT INTO post VALUES (

I'm going to phone the dealer tomorrow and see what they have to say about it and where these mystery miles came from.

[BraindG]

if you got the time, could you also record it while giving it a bit of a rev, so we can hear the change INSERT INTO post VALUES (if any) from upper revs to idle?

i still recon its the tappets, but theres jsut something i cant get my finger on, sure mine was more like tapping your fingernails on the table, whereas thats sounds more like one solid tapping noise.. :Ponder:

[Spirit]

Sounds like tappets to me aswell - try the old screwdriver test - put the metal end on the part you want to listen too and put ear on handle end - this should magnify the sound and help you pinpoint it.

I too would try flushing the engine, but this has never worked for me before really - if it gets on your nerves too much then replacing them is the only option - bit pricey though I bet !

Mine make a little noise but not enough to bother me.

Pete

[Brind]

Okay no problem, but I'll have to do it tomorrow I don't suppose my neighbours want to hear the HKS Drager exhaust giving it some at this time.:D

But if it helps the sound does rise in speed with the engine speed.
But again it comes and goes..
I think you are right though.

[Brind]

You saying about the screwdriver test.. I can't find where it is coming from either! :confused:

[BraindG]

Originally posted by Brind
Okay no problem, but I'll have to do it tomorrow I don't suppose my neighbours want to hear the HKS Drager exhaust giving it some at this time.:D

But if it helps the sound does rise in speed with the engine speed.
But again it comes and goes..
I think you are right though.

in the mornings after the car is cold, it will sound like crap, for about 30-60 seconds.. possibly longer.. if thats the case id say it was the tappets, was the car "warm" when you picked it up?

[Brind]

Originally posted by BraindG
was the car "warm" when you picked it up?

Yes, it had been driven 110 miles ish down to me, apparently there was something wrong with their transporter.
They didn't tell me this until it arrived outside my house with a Mitsubishi van behind it.

Hmmmm

I didn't hear it from cold when I bought it either, but upon driving 110 miles to view the car in the first place and it had been test driven moments before I viewed the car I couldn't really argue, although I'm sure it didn't make that sound before.

[-LegnumVR4-]

Your car sound like mine when it's warmed up :)

I get the feeling it's coming from the belts and the pulley's?

Could try changing them as a test, cheaper too.
Not all Mitzy engines are quite:)

[Nick VR4]

Could be tappets but this noise should go after about 30 secs
or
I have also heard that injectors can cause this noise aswell and will keep being noisey through all rev ranges

[BraindG]

Mine didnt Nick, I had it the entire journey, and when i got to my destination you could still hear them.

would be interesting to hear it with the engine being rev'd

Rhys, and your not worried?
:headsc:

[-LegnumVR4-]

Originally posted by BraindG
Mine didnt Nick, I had it the entire journey, and when i got to my destination you could still hear them.

would be interesting to hear it with the engine being rev'd

Rhys, and your not worried?
:headsc:

Nup, Mitsubishi NZ never said boo about my engine, must be used to hearing them i guess. I had the main tech guy working on my car when changing and Bleeding the AYC oil.

He would have said something if something was wrong. Every V6 engine is different.

[Brind]

Thanks alot for the replys!

I started her up first thing this morning and she started ticking away.. but it went after about 5 seconds, so without a doubt it is a noisy tappet, after she got a bit warmer the ticking came back and again fading in and out in varying cycles, the ticking is exactly the same sound as it was when she first started.

She is absolutely mint and looks the dogs.. and she gets plenty of looks which is good to boost the ego but it is also very worrying that it could be targeted by idiots.

But I'm not happy!

I have 30 days in which to be satisfied plus I have a years Red Zebra warranty, they should sort it under warranty, at least they better, and not give me grief or else I'll put a huge sign on the car at 'Japfest' so 100's of other Jap car owners can see that 'Red Zebra' are ****e, I'M NOT SAYING THEY ARE, THEY JUST BETTER NOT BE! ;)

If you have a warranty why not use it! :) dread to think how much it'll cost.

[Roadrunner]

From the MLR FAQ section, slightly modified to cater for the V6 and from personal experience - there's a known problem that affects all hydraulic tappet cars:

Symptom:
A noticeable ‘ticking’ noise from the top of the engine. Usually appears when starting the engine from cold but can persist.

Problem and Cure:
The noise is caused by air being trapped in the Lash Adjuster INSERT INTO post VALUES (Hydraulric Tappet). Normally the high-pressure chamber in the Lash Adjuster should contain oil but due to various reasons INSERT INTO post VALUES (listed below) the oil drains away leaving only air present. This causes the adjuster to become compressed. The compressed adjuster does not take up the clearance between the roller rocker and the cam lobe correctly when the valve is opening meaning a ‘ticking’ can be heard. It may take a short period for the air to be expelled after starting the engine so some ‘ticking’ noise is acceptable however, if the noise lasts for a long period or doesn’t go away at all then there maybe a problem.

Air can be trapped in the adjuster due to several reasons that are listed below:

Low oil level.
Incorrect grade of oil used INSERT INTO post VALUES (too thin or thick).
Old oil INSERT INTO post VALUES (debris in the oil may block an adjuster).
If the car is stood for a long period or if it is stood on an incline INSERT INTO post VALUES (the oil will drain from the adjusters).
Over filling the engine with oil INSERT INTO post VALUES (if the oil level reaches the crank it may churn air into the oil that will migrate to the lash adjusters).
If the tappet noise does not disappear soon after start up INSERT INTO post VALUES (5-10 seconds); switch off, then restart and listen again. If that doesn't work, then try some mild racing of the engine. Gradually increase the engine speed to 3000rpm INSERT INTO post VALUES (over 30 seconds) and then gradually decrease it back to idle INSERT INTO post VALUES (again over 30 seconds). Repeat this roughly 10 times. If the tappet noise disappears then the air has been expelled from the Lash Adjusters and they are working normally again. It is worth checking your oil level and condition as that maybe the cause of the air entering the Lash Adjusters in the first place. Change your oil if in doubt. Make sure you use the correct grade of oil as going too thick or thin can make matters worse. Mitsubishi quote 10W30 as the correct grade of oil to use. If an oil change makes no difference then the adjusters are either blocked, worn INSERT INTO post VALUES (spring inside becomes weakened) or damaged and will require cleaning or possible replacement. Garages will normally replace them as it is more cost effective than cleaning and usually they will replace the whole set of 24. A competent home mechanic can clean or replace the Lash Adjusters. If in doubt consult your servicing agent.

Approximate cost of repair:
Oil change = £30-£50
New Lash Adjusters are approximately £20 each inclusive INSERT INTO post VALUES (fitting approx. 2-6 hours depending on the number to replace)

Brian

[Brind]

Excellent! thanks alot for the info.

[calum]

You don't need new ones - I believe you can recondition INSERT INTO post VALUES (quite easily) the ones you've got - http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18708

Calum

[Brind]

Thanks Calum, that's quite interesting to see, although it will be their problem to rectify.

I just went out to check the oil out of interest, INSERT INTO post VALUES (the car has been standing all day as it is a second car) the oil is absolutely black!!! which leads me to believe it hasn't been changed in a while or there is a problem some where.
It has only done 500 miles since the last service so something is very wrong here!

I have a K reg 90,000mile Nissan S13 200SX and the oil was very clean after 9000 miles INSERT INTO post VALUES (3 years) so are they going to tell me that in 500 miles the oil in this 48,000mile VR-4 will turn completely black?!!


If they haven't done the main engine oil, have they done the AYC oil? what else hasn't been done?!!! :nono:
They aren't going to like me!

[-LegnumVR4-]

If the oil is black then either it hasn't been serviced in a long time or the oil that was used isn't very good. Cars dealers will do anything on the cheap and if the oil looked ok when they pulled out the dipstick then it ok for them. Friend has a manual 97 VR4 and i check his oil after 10000km from the dealer service, it was black so i'll be changing that for him tonight. I'll be using Mobil 1 sythnetic, giving it a flush too. I change my oil every 5000km and use sythnetic, it helps to protect the engine/turbos from wear. These cars are driven and after 5000km of loving the car it did'nt feel as smooth as the first oil change, you can feel it as the car idles. Once i did the flush and oil change the car runs very smooth.

AYC oil is meant to changed and bleed every 20000km. Just get Mitsubishi to check your AYC oil, they'll will tell u if it's ok or not. The AYC has to be computer bleed by Mitsubishi.

[BraindG]

Then its reflashed, using computer geeky language. They download latest revision and flash your ecu...

[BraindG]

Originally posted by H.7
From the MLR FAQ section, slightly modified to cater for the V6 and from personal experience - there's a known problem that affects all hydraulic tappet cars:

Symptom:
A noticeable ‘ticking’ noise from the top of the engine. Usually appears when starting the engine from cold but can persist.

Problem and Cure:
The noise is caused by air being trapped in the Lash Adjuster INSERT INTO post VALUES (Hydraulric Tappet). Normally the high-pressure chamber in the Lash Adjuster should contain oil but due to various reasons INSERT INTO post VALUES (listed below) the oil drains away leaving only air present. This causes the adjuster to become compressed. The compressed adjuster does not take up the clearance between the roller rocker and the cam lobe correctly when the valve is opening meaning a ‘ticking’ can be heard. It may take a short period for the air to be expelled after starting the engine so some ‘ticking’ noise is acceptable however, if the noise lasts for a long period or doesn’t go away at all then there maybe a problem.

Air can be trapped in the adjuster due to several reasons that are listed below:

Low oil level.
Incorrect grade of oil used INSERT INTO post VALUES (too thin or thick).
Old oil INSERT INTO post VALUES (debris in the oil may block an adjuster).
If the car is stood for a long period or if it is stood on an incline INSERT INTO post VALUES (the oil will drain from the adjusters).
Over filling the engine with oil INSERT INTO post VALUES (if the oil level reaches the crank it may churn air into the oil that will migrate to the lash adjusters).
If the tappet noise does not disappear soon after start up INSERT INTO post VALUES (5-10 seconds); switch off, then restart and listen again. If that doesn't work, then try some mild racing of the engine. Gradually increase the engine speed to 3000rpm INSERT INTO post VALUES (over 30 seconds) and then gradually decrease it back to idle INSERT INTO post VALUES (again over 30 seconds). Repeat this roughly 10 times. If the tappet noise disappears then the air has been expelled from the Lash Adjusters and they are working normally again. It is worth checking your oil level and condition as that maybe the cause of the air entering the Lash Adjusters in the first place. Change your oil if in doubt. Make sure you use the correct grade of oil as going too thick or thin can make matters worse. Mitsubishi quote 10W30 as the correct grade of oil to use. If an oil change makes no difference then the adjusters are either blocked, worn INSERT INTO post VALUES (spring inside becomes weakened) or damaged and will require cleaning or possible replacement. Garages will normally replace them as it is more cost effective than cleaning and usually they will replace the whole set of 24. A competent home mechanic can clean or replace the Lash Adjusters. If in doubt consult your servicing agent.

Approximate cost of repair:
Oil change = £30-£50
New Lash Adjusters are approximately £20 each inclusive INSERT INTO post VALUES (fitting approx. 2-6 hours depending on the number to replace)

Brian

This is one for the Info page, seems a fairly common issue...

Brind, dont delete you mp3 file, or mail it me.. i could use it as and example.. "bad" -> "good" :D

cheers

[Brind]

Originally posted by BraindG
Then its reflashed, using computer geeky language. They download latest revision and flash your ecu...

Christ, if they couldn't be bothered to simply replace the engine oil INSERT INTO post VALUES (if that is the case); you can bet your life they haven't bothered with the hassle of the AYC oil and ECU reflashing etc.:rolleyes:

Like I said, they aren't going to like me if this is the case!

Braind G, I can send you a better version of it if you like, obviously a much larger file, I don't do it often to know the best way to do it apart from making the file small..

I recorded it with my camcorder, and filmed under the bonnet at the same time, you can have that if you like it's about 20mb in an average quality.

[BraindG]

email me at barry@clubvr4.co.uk

should go through :D

[Brind]

I can't email large files, so I've uploaded it instead.

The original footage I made was over 133mb :o but it is excellent quality.
I've managed to get it down to just over 9mb I hope it's okay, but it is CD quality sound!

I thought it would be easier to hear if you could see the engine aswell.

You can right click and save as here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.brindley1/engine.avi) .

Can I be an important looking moderator for this?;)

[Petrolhead]

Ummmmm, mine make that ticking noise too :INSERT INTO post VALUES (

pretty loud at start up for about a minute, the gets quiet. It then comes and goes completely, and if I rev to about 2500 it dissapears, but returns on idle again.

D.

[Roadrunner]

From experience, make sure your oil's at the correct level - the noise disappears much quicker ;)

[Brind]

Hello Petrolhead, I've found a few pictures of you car on the MLR, very nice!

You have that sound aswell? how many miles has yours done?

I hope they sort the problem as it spoils the car, apart from the noise it is stunning, I don't want people thinking I've killed it or something.

[Brind]

Originally posted by H.7
From experience, make sure your oil's at the correct level - the noise disappears much quicker ;)

You saying that, I had a brief look yesterday INSERT INTO post VALUES (although she was at normal temperature still) and I thought then it was too high, which is why I had a look today and noticed how black it was, which after only 500 miles is impossible!!!

[BraindG]

if it was clean to start with...

[Brind]

It was 500 miles ago when it SHOULD have been replaced when it had its proper main dealer service interval including AYC oil.:INSERT INTO post VALUES (

[Roadrunner]

In my experience, the oil does go black really quickly. I do a lot of miles, so the oil is changed every 8 weeks :eek: but it's still black for most of the time.

I recall reading something on the MLR months ago about this issue - I'm pretty sure it affects all Mitsubishis, not just VR-4s, but I can't remember the technical solution precisely, other than it involved flushing and filling the engine with one type of oil, running it for around 50 miles, draining that oil and refilling with normal fully synthetic and seeing if it fixed the problem. If not, do it again. Seemed to me like too much effort for no gain ....

I can't be bothered fighting through all the drivel on the MLR these days to try to get to the good technical stuff, which is why this forum is SO GOOD! :D :cool:

Brian

[Brind]

Originally posted by H.7
In my experience, the oil does go black really quickly.

Brian

Really!! :eek: that surely can't be good.

I got in contact with the dealer I bought it from today, and they said they will come and collect it, sort the problem and drop her home again, so it sounds hopeful.

I don't care if they have to replace the tappets and adjusters, I want it perfect, it's only done 48,500.

They were very helpful though, and didn't give me any crap, so hopefully all will be okay.

Thanks alot for all the replys guys, it seems this place is a godsend.:cool1:

[Ailsa]

Hi Brind,

Where on MLR did you see pictures of Petrolheads car? We weren't aware there was pictures of it on there thats why I'm wondering!

Oh - and good luck getting the car fixed! Find out what they do and let us all know if it works. Getting rid of our tappy noise would be a good thing!

Cheers,
Ails

[Brind]

Hiya Ailsa,

I can't honestly remember where I saw them on the MLR.
There was 3 on there and I'm sure I found another on The Galant Centre.
The 3 on MLR had the plate obscured while the one the other site was left for all to see.

I remember the car because I saved the pictures, and they were what twisted my arm to get one. :)

[Ailsa]

:headsc: Not quite sure how the got there....

But Glad to be of service all the same! :wiggle:

[landy]

Interesting...
My engine makes a tapping noise too.
It had only done 7000 miles INSERT INTO post VALUES (13000 now) and is a 1998 model.
The dealer thought nothing of the noise though ??!!
:devil2:

[Brind]

Ailsa,
One of them has 'SS-R' written in the bottom left corner if that helps?
I can post the pictures if you want to see if you even took them?:D


Hiya landy,
Yours has done it from 7000? was the oil changed at 4500 miles?
Did you hear the sound file I posted? because if you listen carefully you can hear the fuel injectors aswell but they aren't as loud as the tappet sound but is normal.

My car is being taken back up to the dealer on Tuesday and looked at on Wednesday, hopefully they can stop the noise by any means possible..
But I will report back when I find out what they do.. if anything.
It really is that loud. :INSERT INTO post VALUES (

[Brind]

All done!!!

It's running perfectly, quiet as a dicky bird.
Don't know what they did, but I made some marks on the bolts around the head so I'd know if it was removed, but none of them have.
So I'll take a wild guess and say they have just flushed the engine through several times.

Whatever it was it's okay now.

[landy]

With an engine flush, is it the same thing as the cans of engine flush you can buy at Motorworld ?

If so I will go down tomorrow and buy a load of cans to see if that will do the trick INSERT INTO post VALUES ( hope so )

:devil2:

[calum]

Just my opinion - but I wouldn't use engine flush. Oil is in your engine for a reason. If your lash adjusters need cleaned remove them and clean them properly.

Running an engine without proper oil is like you trying to work without blood.

Calum

[Ailsa]

Originally posted by Brind
[B]Ailsa,
One of them has 'SS-R' written in the bottom left corner if that helps?
I can post the pictures if you want to see if you even took them?:D



That would be good! If it says SS-R it was us though... Thats our other club. David probably posted them up and then forgot!:shrug:

[Brind]

I've posted them in the pictures section. :)

[Brind]

landy,

I'm just guessing that is what they did.
I'd guess they would drain the oil and flush through thinner oil and then put in the proper stuff until the noise was gone.. what ever it was it has Definitely gone now.
It was quiet on startup before, it would start a few seconds after and then tick in cycles.

It was done by a Mitsubishi main dealer.

[haydar]

Originally posted by Brind
All done!!!

It's running perfectly, quiet as a dicky bird.
Don't know what they did, but I made some marks on the bolts around the head so I'd know if it was removed, but none of them have.
So I'll take a wild guess and say they have just flushed the engine through several times.

Whatever it was it's okay now.


Could you find out from the dealer what exactly they did to sort out this problem! I listened to the audio and it's exactly the same as my car. I've tried changing the oil several times but the noise is always there. I originally used Mobile 1 0W/40, I've recently switched to Mobile 1 15W/50, which for a few days left the engine quiet, but then the noise came back.

I'll try and find 10W/30 in a synthetic to see if that helps but I'm really interested in what the dealer did.


Regards

[BraindG]

you might find they flushed the engine several times with clean oil, thats what they did on mine.. drained car, filled it up, can it aroudn for a while, then repeated the process...

[Brind]

Hiya mate.
I'm pretty sure Barry is right.
No bolts or hoses were touched so the only thing they could do was to just flush the engine through several times and run it until the sound went.

It has gone now as I've ragged the arse off it a few times now and when I pull up it's quiet, very steady idle, doesn't skip a beat.

[haydar]

Who was the main dealer? Do you know what oil they used to flush the car and then what oil is in it right now?

As a precausion, you might want to start the car and let it idle for 20 minutes. I found that after a good thrash, the ticking noise goes away when you initially bring it back to idle. However, if you leave it running for a while it slowly starts to come back. After my last oil change I though I'd cured the problem since I didn't hear the ticking for about a week, but I'd left the car to idle for a while and it came back!

Hopefully this will not happen to yours but try it out while the car is under warranty.

[Brind]

Marshall Mitsubishi, find the thread I posted in the dealership section.

The car was drivin by one of their guys back up to Cambridge, an easy 130 miles away, and then drivin all the way back again, another 130 miles.

Started it up when I got home that night, she was very slightly still warm, and she was very quiet.
Started her up the next day from cold and no tick at all, not even from the first turn of the key, left it idleing for ages when it would normally start and nothing.

Drivin a couple of times on short journeys since and shes been quiet.

Drove to Japfest and back yeasterday, an easy 250 mile round trip, and I was doing 80, 90 all the way, stopped the car a few times and quiet.

Drove to London today, 250miles again, again 80 90 and absolutley nothing.


Very noisy before.
You can give them a ring and ask what they would do if you have that sound.
It is very common apparently.

And I'm keeping the warranty!!!!! :eek: I'm scared to death if anything goes wrong, this car sounds effing expensive!
Have a weird sound now coming from my front right wheel, and the AYC light stays on, it was fine until I came back from Japfest yesterday. :rolleyes:

[-LegnumVR4-]

Originally posted by Brind
And I'm keeping the warranty!!!!! :eek: I'm scared to death if anything goes wrong, this car sounds effing expensive!
Have a weird sound now coming from my front right wheel, and the AYC light stays on, it was fine until I came back from Japfest yesterday. :rolleyes:

If it's the red AYC light on the dash then that would mean you should get it looked at by Mitzy. It maybe just your AYC oil needs a bleed or the fluid level is low. Bleeding can only be done by the computer they hook up to the car.

[jaysback]

i wonder if they would be interested in putting a warranty on mine?
seeing as its an import and i didnt buy the car from them.
our local mitsi dealership has just got ralliart approval so might go and see them.

dont need the big bills to replace gearbox seals and stuff like that.

[haydar]

Originally posted by jaysback
i wonder if they would be interested in putting a warranty on mine?
seeing as its an import and i didnt buy the car from them.
our local mitsi dealership has just got ralliart approval so might go and see them.

dont need the big bills to replace gearbox seals and stuff like that.

Personally I wouldn't bother with an after sales warranty. I had mine for 2 years and they never paid for anything. Everything seemed to fall under wear and tear!

Regards

[Brind]

I took the car to a Mitsi dealer today and they used their fault finder and it came up with the AYC pump.
They reckon it could cost about £1500 which is covered by warranty! thank christ!

So that tells me to keep the warranty!!!!!!! even if the cost of another years warranty is about £500, I'll break something to pay for what I paid on the warranty! :D
Well maybe not.

Main dealers do accept imports now, so you could be lucky! but they asked me today if mine was an import which I said it wasn't and they said they have a GTO which is an import and mine had priority over it, even though the GTO came in first.