Is it possible to change AYC for mechanical LSD? [Archive]

Brunty

04-05-2006, 11:48 AM

When I originally had my AYC fault RogerRally stated that many EVO owners ditch the AYC/electronic LSD and replace the whole unit with a mechanical one.

There seem to be a number of current threads abour AYC lights/pumps and problems and also most of the ebay VR4 seem to be advertised with non-working AYC.

1. Would it be possible to swap in a mechanical LSD?
2. What would be the likely cost of the unit+labour?
3. What would the running costs/considerations be?
4. What could you wire the AYC light up to?

richy rich

04-05-2006, 01:17 PM

1 yes
2 will look in to it
3 shouldn't be any difference IMO
4 sound system

d3x

04-05-2006, 01:35 PM

considering my position, I may look into this... love the idea of the ayc lights rigged up to the sound system rich..

amsoil

04-05-2006, 07:21 PM

Three types really Hewland powerflow which is ramps and clutches , the Quaiffe style with lost of little gogs set at funny angles and the old Cam and Pawl . Yes sure there are hyro electric ECU controlled etc but if you actually want to do it rather than dream about it ....... Hewland is well into 4 figures but the best and you will need to know / guess ramp angles, Quaiffe (so good I changed one of these for a Hewland) about 2/3rds the cost of a Hewland but .... and its operation varies with wear and the oil used ; Cam and Pawl yes well. Lets go onto something else. A firm called Gripper use the hewland idea but only put the ramps and clutches in at one end (clever) and so are very much cheaper. Andy Robinson Racing import these if its any help to any one.

Brunty

07-05-2006, 12:03 PM

Response from Roger Rally

I have an advert on Ebay at the mo, so that should help solve a few problems!

Once the pressure has droped off that much adjusting the switch setting down means that when full wheelspin control is needed, then there wont be enough strong fluid to keep things in check, and the warning light will come up again anyway!

A new pump with refreshed motor is about £450 fitted, but a Cusco LSD, which goes into the rear casing, and does away with the AYC pump and pipes ( saves a bit of weight!) is £1000 inc assembly, Then its just Diff removing and then re fitting back to under your car ( I do this last bit for free, if I can have your old pump for refurb!) and a couple of liters of Oils.

Axeboy

07-05-2006, 01:05 PM

Interesting...

RogerRally

02-07-2006, 04:56 PM

3. What would the running costs/considerations be?

Having recently fitted a cusco LSD to a Legnum rear diff, I can vouch for the handling characteristics.
Going round a bend/ or roundabout the front scrubs wide,you need to lift off or break to get the grip.This is the same as non ayc working car would be,

but back under gentle power though, the front definatly now turns in sharper, ( causing less wear/ scrubbing on the outer edge of the tyres).

If the corner tightens up and you need more steering angle, just boot the throttle and the back steps out in a controlled diff angle, and you can wind off the steering lock, and get ready for the exit of the bend, and roar off in a straight line. weired sensation in a big estate car!. With a bit of practice ( and an empty roundabout) you can adjust the steering without touching the steering wheel, just using the throttle ( abit like a capri etc!)
The diff clonks though, only at low speed round supermarket carparks, as the rear wheels dont like turning at different speeds.
Fun to be here, methinks!
Running costs would be less wear on the fronts, but more use of the back pair

flyboy

11-07-2006, 09:04 AM

RogerRally what lsd center did you use? I cant find any ones that match.. :thinking:

RogerRally

28-07-2006, 11:41 AM

Ive just taken delivery from CoOrdsport (After a 3 month shiping wait!), a new cusco LSD unit to go inside the rear diff of a VR4, instead of the AYC pump set up.
We be built up complete next week into a good empty casing.
Cost will be £1,000, on an exchange basis.

I can also offer help fitting, if needed in Southern UK area, ( for free if i can keep the old pump, for refurbing)

Kieran

28-07-2006, 12:50 PM

Roger - on a slight tangent, based upon your experiences with Legnums so far, how close is the running gear to the EVO, and which flavour?

RogerRally

31-07-2006, 11:32 AM

The back end on a type s, ois the same as evo 4, with active diff to speed up or slowdown the right wheel to match the left, but the front end runs an open front diff, which doesnt proportion power evenly if there is front wheelspin. Thats why the Cusco LSD in the back works so well in Vr4s as a handling upgrade, compared to in an evo, where the 4 wheel drive is under better control to start with,
The biggest difference is the extra weight over the front wheels, causing the front to run wide whilst pressing on round bends. The other problem is the brakes are under powered for hard use, and a brembo upgrade works well, if you change the wheels aswell.
personally, i just love the extra tourque the vr4s turbos have lowdown, makes for effortless overtaking!

bradc

31-07-2006, 11:50 AM

So do EVO's have an LSD at the front then?

RogerRally

01-08-2006, 12:58 AM

They have an open diff in the gearbox, that evenly splits the drive to front and back, but then goes through a viscous coupling in the transfer box, to prevent different speeds between axles, the front then goes through an open diff in 4-5 gsr, or through a helical geared diff to prevent wheelspin ( and make steering heavier!) on some evo 6 GSRs, and all RS variants.
latest ones (7-9 )have an active control over the center viscous, that has on dash adjustable different release lock times, depending on condition.
Tarmac:, quick release of center diff after wheelspin or diference in front to back ratio detected and cured,
snow: diff stays locked on for a few secs after wheelspin detected.

BTW, I also now have a stronger EVO 8 rear diff, with upgraded SAYC plated lsd diff fitted, and all hydraulic parts removed (for sale too, if needed).
not as agressive as a cusco type, but used in my Evo 4 as a demo play thing.

Kieran

01-08-2006, 07:57 AM

Roger - what's the going rate on refurbished AYC pumps?

Also, how long do the clutch plates in the AYC diff last? Must say I've never heard of one failing through wear (pumps excepted).

RogerRally

03-08-2006, 12:33 AM

click on my user name, and that will allow you to view "my home page".
I have a refurbed pump off a VR4, (NOT THE DIFFERENT SORT FROM AN EVO)with an uprated 12v motor, and an upgraded improved pressure switch, all for £450, less £50 if i can have you old faulty one back. fitting is a couple of hours of yuck trickling down your arms!
As with brake disks, and clutch disks, any moving parts that are forced to rub against each other for traction will eventually wear out. evos used top be a safe reliable 280 bhp, but dealers sell them speced up at 340 bhp, with no thought for the wear further down the line. the newer evo 8s come with stronger rear diffs, and its those that i prefer to fit to VR4s that are being put to hard use.

I no longer repair AYC internal clutch packs (it was at least 4 hours work £120 plus parts), but would rather sell a complete working AYC pack (£250) removed from a car that I know worked fine, as its all fiddly inside. Better still just removed the whole let and get some LSD into your blood stream!

ritch_w

03-08-2006, 06:29 AM

Roger - can u refurb knackered AYC pumps? if so how much? I have a knacked one in my shed which could be handy to have as a spare (one of the solenoids has "parted" ways from the pump)

cheers! :)

Kieran

03-08-2006, 08:21 AM

I no longer repair AYC internal clutch packs (it was at least 4 hours work £120 plus parts), but would rather sell a complete working AYC pack (£250) removed from a car that I know worked fine, as its all fiddly inside. Better still just removed the whole let and get some LSD into your blood stream!

Good grief - I never knew you could - is this something within the realms of a enthusiast with a good set of tools and a workbench or is it rather more specialist?

Also Roger (and I apologise for the incoming thread hijack)- Had any dealings with the W5A51 gearbox we have? My understanding is that it was also used on some JDM Lancer EVO VIIs.... just wondered if you'd ever played with one?

Brunty

27-09-2006, 05:00 PM

I have a refurbed pump off a VR4, (NOT THE DIFFERENT SORT FROM AN EVO)with an uprated 12v motor, and an upgraded improved pressure switch, all for £450, less £50 if i can have you old faulty one back. fitting is a couple of hours of yuck trickling down your arms!

Just like to say that Roger installed a refurb AYC unit on my car on Saturday, after checking that the AYC equipment was working as it should (bar the old pump obviously).

As agreed Roger took my old pump (although I doubt he'll be able to refurb it to any worthwhile condition) and only charged for the quoted two hours despite the job taking quite a bit longer than anticipated.

If a pressure switch doesn't cure your AYC problems then you need to speak to this man. Looking back through old posts I see that I was originally quoted twice this amount by Xtreme for a replacement pump.

Thanks Roger.

Josh2xsv

04-10-2006, 06:55 AM

Is there anyone that would fit the cusco LSD into the casing in NZ? Hopefully for less than an arm and leg! I would love to get that in my bloodstream!!! :karate:

bradc

04-10-2006, 08:43 AM

Gary Capper regularly fits LSD's to evo's, I would imagine he would be able to do it to VR-4's as well

Brunty

24-11-2007, 12:56 PM

Just been discussing this with the Service Manager at Xtreme - he has concerns that because the AYC and ABS are linked that removing AYC components and introducing a LSD could interfere with the operation of the ABS systems.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of this?

matsondawson

25-11-2007, 12:53 AM

I doubt this would be an issue, it would be the same as removing the AYC fuse. I don't think mitsi would make a car who's braking system would go toes up when the AYC fuse blows.

matsondawson

25-11-2007, 12:55 AM

In fact logically thinking about it, I think the AYC is interested in what the brakes are doing and not he other way around. I'd suspect if your hard braking the AYC would turn off to prevent the engine trying to drive torque seperatly to the wheels when the brakes are effectively trying to apply an even to torque to each wheel.

Louis

25-11-2007, 01:02 PM

there are two seperate ecu's, one for ayc and one for abs, but they are both aware through the same pick up sensors (steering angle, throttle position, speed sensor, latitude sensor, longintudinal sensor,) also the wheel speed sensor.
The abs ecu basically knows when the ayc is operating, otherwise when the ayc speeds up one wheel the abs ecu would think you were skidding, (reading from the wheel sensors).
Under heavy straigh line braking, when you feek the abs kick in you will see the ayc lights coming on.
Personally I don't think there would be an issue (as matsondawson said), But the electronics on these cars is very complex, but If it has been done already with no issues, then we know and mitsy don't as they haven't tried it.
When I asked ablout info on fitting an evo 8 rear diff, mitsy told me they would definitely not fit, and they did.
It's good to be cautious, but they don't know, and haven't tried.

Oblivion

18-02-2008, 04:47 AM

Please excuse the million questions I have, I figure its best to ask the knowledgeable :scholar: before going ahead and stuffing it up! :speechles

1. What type of cusco lsd are has been talked about here - 1 , 1.5 way etc
2. Would changing from the standard rear (non-ayc) diff to a cusco one offer much handling improvements?
3. If I went ahead with a cusco one it would I order one to fit an Evo 4,5,6?
4. Would similar results be achievable with an Evo RS diff? (and perhaps cheaper :P)
5. Has anyone done a front diff change to something else or would it be not worth it? :inquisiti

Louis

18-02-2008, 10:23 AM

Hi,
1. What type of cusco lsd are has been talked about here - 1 , 1.5 way etc
2. Would changing from the standard rear (non-ayc) diff to a cusco one offer much handling improvements?

Everything that Roger Rally has said above. He has put a cusco in a VR4, someone on this site I am sure, best bet is to call or email him. He had an offer on of £1000, (again above)

3. If I went ahead with a cusco one it would I order one to fit an Evo 4,5,6?
All the rear diff rarios from 4 to 9 are the same on the evos, the evo 7 and after have a much stronger Super AYC diff.

4. Would similar results be achievable with an Evo RS diff? (and perhaps cheaper )
An evo RS will cost about £1800 second hand, they are quite sought after.

5. Has anyone done a front diff change to something else or would it be not worth it?
Not heard of it being done on any evos, so I wouldn't think it would be a worthwhile upgrade. The evo front bits wouldn't fit as far as I know due to the casing being different. (But everything is adaptable!!).

Check out the MLR mitsubishi lancer register, for more info, let us know how you get on, cheers Louis

Nick Mann

18-02-2008, 10:41 AM

Not heard of it being done on any evos, so I wouldn't think it would be a worthwhile upgrade. The evo front bits wouldn't fit as far as I know due to the casing being different. (But everything is adaptable!!)

Yes and no.

The 5spd Evo box shares the same internals as the VR4 manual box. I would guess (but I can't be sure) that the GTA Evo box is the same as our auto box. If there is an upgrade, but like you I haven't noticed anyone talk about it, then I would expect it to fit in the VR4 box too.

bradc

18-02-2008, 07:18 PM

the gta box does have the same w5a51 part number, but obviously different casing.

Any rear diff designed for an evo 4-9 will fit, the gearing is in fact different though, evo 5-9 are 3.309 and evo 4 is 3.323, The difference is so small that you don't need to worry about it though, it works out to be the equivilant of 0.6mm difference in tyre tread!

psbarham

18-02-2008, 08:11 PM

If there is an upgrade, but like you I haven't noticed anyone talk about it, then I would expect it to fit in the VR4 box too.

there is talk of an upgrade on the mlr, also talk of a chip for the ecu as well, i belive rc developments have something to do with it.
there is one gta on there that is now pushing 500 horses through it so ours should be safe for the time being.

Oblivion

24-06-2009, 07:08 AM

Anyone swapped a type v non-ayc diff yet? I've pm'd roger rally but no reply yet...

bradc

24-06-2009, 08:31 AM

You mean swap your current diff for an LSD?

Oblivion

25-06-2009, 07:18 AM

You mean swap your current diff for an LSD?

Yeah.. I think mines gettin louder and louder so it might be about to die :(

bradc

25-06-2009, 08:26 AM

An LSD from an EVO should fit. An 8G with AYC can take a non-AYC diff without any problems at all. An 8G can also take an SAYC from an EVO with a few spacers, so I'd guess an EVO LSD should fit in easily.

vr4-fan

25-06-2009, 02:19 PM

hi , if I run with ayc on , that will give me anyproblem?

Oblivion

14-08-2009, 10:57 AM

Yeah.. I think mines gettin louder and louder so it might be about to die :(

Well my lsd plans go back on hold, the noise I was hearing from the back turned out to be a wheel bearing!

Dom B

14-08-2009, 11:32 AM

I see rogerrally mentioned rebuilding ayc clutch plates but then started just supplying working clutch packs from known good cars. Does this mean that the clutch plates are a standard part i can get from a dealer? If so does anyone know the part numbers. Or can roger still get hold of them?

Dom

VR4WGN

17-08-2009, 08:58 PM

Well my lsd plans go back on hold, the noise I was hearing from the back turned out to be a wheel bearing!
hey man,iv done 3 Type-V LSD Conversions now and theyr awsum,i have 1 in VR4WGN,VR4-S and i did another in a loner VR4,and i supplied Adam Findlay with one aswell.
as for handeling its Great being in sole controll,although it seems to drift the arse out more under power but throwing it into corners on the highway etc theres no difference in AYC or Non to me..
its an easy swap too,just need non ayc rear half shafts and the rest wil lbolt up to your sub frame

bradc

17-08-2009, 10:09 PM

The Type V and other 8G rear diff isn't an LSD, it is an Open.

Nutter_John

17-08-2009, 10:11 PM

I was going to make the same point Brad , unless you have changed the internals of the diff it will be the same as driving a AYC based car with the AYC turned off

Madhav

02-12-2009, 03:35 AM

Anyone know whether you can take a type V diff and put a stronger cusco LSD diff centre in it??

Or does anyone know the part number of the type V diff and any other cars it's used on so I can send an email to cusco and ask them?

Thanks

CANDEE

02-12-2009, 06:17 AM

Hey dude,

Cusco do make an LSD for the Type V VR4 diff. :)

I have had a look at the Cusco website but cant find the part number... Have also checked RHDjapan too...

J

Madhav

02-12-2009, 06:30 AM

Awesome!! This could be the cheap way out then!! Well cheaper then importing a Evo 4 RS diff setup at least? Where to find it?

CANDEE

02-12-2009, 08:56 AM

Madhav

02-12-2009, 09:28 AM

Another option is a evo 7+ SAYC diff casing with a Cusco LSD center? Mean you wont have to change the shafts etc??

http://www.cusco.co.jp/en/pdf/L.S.D._mitsubishi.pdf

As per here the below link, both RaceBorn in NSW and 999 Automotive in Queensland are Cusco distributors. :)

http://www.cusco.co.jp/en/distributor/index.html

J

Yeah I know of the AYC cusco one, the problem is that the casing is piss weak alloy and prone to splitting/flexing under high hp applications, hence my desire for the type V with it's more solid cast iron case in combination with the indestructible cusco diff centre.

So you reckon just send them an email? You sure it's not gonna be your typical, "Thank you for your enquiry, we regret to inform you that cusco do not make any products to support the Legnum VR-4." reply?

What other cars use the type V diff? They seem to take you more seriously when you tell them that the same diff is used in the Evo IV for example.

CANDEE

02-12-2009, 10:10 AM

Yeah I know of the AYC cusco one, the problem is that the casing is piss weak alloy and prone to splitting/flexing under high hp applications, hence my desire for the type V with it's more solid cast iron case in combination with the indestructible cusco diff centre.

So you reckon just send them an email? You sure it's not gonna be your typical, "Thank you for your enquiry, we regret to inform you that cusco do not make any products to support the Legnum VR-4." reply?

What other cars use the type V diff? They seem to take you more seriously when you tell them that the same diff is used in the Evo IV for example.
I remember talking with MazSport a while back about a Galant VR4 diff, which is the one for the Type V.. Give them a email, then you can confirm if they are still available or not(quite possible that there may be some sitting around @ Cusco in Japan). Oh and mention its for a Galant VR4, not a Legnum as I recall it wasnt listed as available for the Legnum...

If they are very helpful, then try Mac @ 41.co.nz.. He has the abilty to track stuff that isnt in production, but in stock in odd places. :)

J

Madhav

02-12-2009, 11:59 PM

This was Mazsports reply.

SORRY CANT HELP

Thats all they said!!

I'll just sent an email to that 41 place, hope they are more helpful.

Also sent one to the aussie distrubutor.

Madhav

03-12-2009, 12:47 AM

Has anyone on here ever heard of a type V diff falling to pieces or splitting etc like the ayc diffs do under high torque load??

Just a thought, they may actually be stronger than the ayc diffs, and if this is the case I will happily ditch my ayc setup in a second.

CANDEE

03-12-2009, 02:10 AM

This was Mazsports reply.

SORRY CANT HELP

Thats all they said!!

I'll just sent an email to that 41 place, hope they are more helpful.

Also sent one to the aussie distrubutor.
That sounds like the std MazSport reply lol...

Mac is usually very helpful, though sometimes he is a bit slow with his replys..

Madhav

03-12-2009, 02:16 AM

That sounds like the std MazSport reply lol...

Mac is usually very helpful, though sometimes he is a bit slow with his replys..

I got a reply from fortyone instantly, the dude there is onto it for me, hope he has some luck....

Could be onto something here... it's basically the same idea as the evo one, take a more solid casing than the ayc alloy one and replace the centre diff with an indestructible LSD aftermarket one.

However if anyone knows of a type V diff failing let me know, because maybe they are strong enough from factory and don't need the new centre at all?

Madhav

03-12-2009, 02:31 AM

This is the reply I got from fortyone

"The only option from Cusco is their Evo IV LSD's. There's no kit listed specifically for the VR4

Cusco have Evo IV Mechanical rear diffs that replace AYC Mechanical diffs. They have these in 1, 1.5 and 2 way.

They only have this in type RS. They are not cheap $2198 + Shipping (EMS ~$220, SAL ~$190, Japan Post ~$130)."

So if you can figure out how to get one of these LSD centres, let me know... it may well be the lsd kit for the evo IV? How to know for sure except take a type V diff and compare it?

bradc

03-12-2009, 07:07 AM

I have never heard of one of the Type V diff's dieing.

Madhav

03-12-2009, 07:55 AM

I have never heard of one of the Type V diff's dieing.

Well this is good to know.... how much do they normally go for in NZ? I don't mean wreckers or dealers prices either.

bradc

03-12-2009, 07:59 AM

Check with Quinton, I think he has a few.

Turbo_Steve

03-12-2009, 10:55 AM

As it seems to be the casing that is the problem, has anyone looked at a strengthening kit?

Various cars run a set of ally bars cnc'd to match the shape of the casing and give it more rigidity. Something Q might be interested in offering, maybe?

Nutter_John

03-12-2009, 11:38 AM

In the latest evo mag there is a guy who made his own casing on an cnc machine , about 20% bigger but all the areas at risk of flexing were a lot stronger

scott.mohekey

03-12-2009, 12:00 PM

In the latest evo mag there is a guy who made his own casing on an cnc machine , about 20% bigger but all the areas at risk of flexing were a lot stronger

This one John? http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=268523

I've seen another where the guy took the AYC internals out, and replaced them with a strengthening plate alongside the Cusco LSD, but I can't for the life of me find it.

Nutter_John

03-12-2009, 12:02 PM

Yeah thats the baby , he really does agood job on that lot

scott.mohekey

03-12-2009, 12:05 PM

Yeah, I wasted a few good hours at work yesterday, reading through that thread. Very inspirational stuff. I do wish I could find the other thread with the strengthening brace in it though.

Madhav

03-12-2009, 12:53 PM

Check with Quinton, I think he has a few.

Quinton has a deal where he changes prices from the listed or advertised NZ$ price to the currency you earn in your own country... i.e. everything goes up 20% for us aussies.. hate to see what goes on for you guys from the UK? But yeah, no thanks.

On another note I checked on evo forums and the reply was this in regards to the bracing idea.

All reports I have read of bracing comment that it is not effective, as the cracks usually develop internally within the AYC diff casing (in the thin walled ali hosting the bearings) and propogate to the outer casing.

Gowf

03-12-2009, 05:50 PM

This was exactly the reasoning that forced me to just spend the money as i wanted a first time fix. I personaly believe its the only long term cost effective way to do it. I was £1600 for a recon ralliart diff and new e7 shafts, But that is only because i have a very good friend who works/has 1/2 ownership of what was ralliart and is now mml. And that was a hard decision for me to make as its put me on the verge of bankruptcy now, but at least the rear diff will remain in one piece for the recievers!