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View Full Version : Gearbox "slipping" when changing down to 2nd gear



Kalle
06-05-2006, 08:53 PM
I took the Leggie out for a small track day and experienced some problems.. :(

I used the tiptronic mode and found out that when changing down from 3rd gear to second gear it doesn't seem to lock in properly... when you hit the launch pedal it seems to slip more than I would expect (up to the red marks)
Almost like it was revved in neutral.

The cicumstances where that I braked heavily just before and then changed the gear and then did a sharp turn. The gaspedal was not touched during the braking and gearchanging and in the beginning of the turning.

I've read that it could be due to bad ATF!? Mine was changed a year ago by the previous owner so it shouldn' be too bad.. right? It looks ok atleast.

It is no problem changing gears up

What could be the problem?

Kieran
06-05-2006, 10:20 PM
IT could be bad ATF, or just the wrong type in the gearbox. If you were on track, it could also be that the fluid was overheating. Could just be normal behaviour - difficult to say!:inquisiti

bradc
07-05-2006, 07:20 AM
I would suggest that you try driving it normally on a road and trying a similar thing, and seeing if it happens. That will tell you if it was something to do with the temps of the transmission on that day. I would suggest you try changing the ATF as well if it happens in normal driving, it doesn't quite sound right to me.

richy rich
07-05-2006, 08:12 AM
as said above get the atf flushed and changed for some good stuff amsoil is the best imo.
you can also consider these boxes do not like changing down to second gear try driving in D and see if it will change down to second it will not do it.

amsoil
07-05-2006, 10:40 AM
The chances are that you have Dextron III in your box which is not the correct fluid for the Triptronic. THe fluid may be OK for normal use in a normal auto box but in a triptronic box it doesn't change gear quite as it should and it degradates with high temperature. From what you are saying I would guess that the fluid is overheating and breaking down, the slipping will wear the triptronic clutches in a disasterous manner if you don't do something. Sorry for the plug but:- http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/automatic_transmission_fluid.html

If you look at the bottom you will see the difference in operating temperature between Amsoil synthetic ATF and mineral ATF. Amsoil ATF wont break down with temperature in the same way will last much longer than mineral ATF and being of the correct spec for the Mitzy triptronic will make the box and your driving much smoother. There is also advantage in resetting the Triptronic ECU when you change fluids, the gear changes are that different.
The time o change the fluid to the correct grade was really yesterday; Mitzy own fluid is the correct grade but I dont know if it will take the heat soak of a track day, I somehow doubt it really.
Yes I will ship if you have no one to take it over for you. If Mitzu Sweden might want more just PM me.

richy rich
07-05-2006, 10:46 AM
you doing a double plug a donhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-082.gif

amsoil
07-05-2006, 11:09 AM
:scholar: Don't really think I need to give a plug just concerned Kalle could loose his box.

Kalle
08-05-2006, 08:48 AM
Ok, I'll change my ATF for amsoil and see what happens!

Found a retailer in Sweden, but there are two alternatives:
GEAR LUBE 75W-90 (AGR)
or
GEAR LUBE 85W-140 (AGO)

Which one do I go for?

Nick Mann
08-05-2006, 09:52 AM
They look like gear oils? Can anybody say for sure? Might be good for the transfer box, but not the gearbox.

You need ATF. Dexron III is the closest readily available ATF, but for all the reasons listed in post 5 of this thread, I woul strongly suggest you find an Amsoil dealer.

Kalle
08-05-2006, 10:08 AM
They are Amsoil transmission oil.. see their webpage:
http://www.normax.net/html/amsoil_oljor.html

Specifiacations on the two alternatives, most in Swedish, but some text in english and also a picture on the package :)

http://www.normax.net/09-105_swe.pdf
http://www.normax.net/09-121_swe.pdf

Nick Mann
08-05-2006, 10:23 AM
I think that they are gear oils, though. Would probably be good in manual transmissions. But I think ATF has hydraulic properties as well as lubrication.

But I am not an expert! Someone who has more knowledge than me needs to confirm. (More knowledge than me on oils is not difficult!!)

Roadrunner
08-05-2006, 12:11 PM
I think it's probably simpler than this. I'd suspect the ATF level is low. Warn the car up, stop on level ground, move the lever through from P to D and back, stopping at each click to ensure the ATF gets round the box, then check the level with the engine running. These boxes are very sensitive to having the correct ATF level and your symptom suggests the level is low.

Physician
08-05-2006, 06:44 PM
One thing for certain ......... it is NOT acting properly. I've done a few track days and use EXACTLY the same procedure when changing down gears. I don't have any issues you detail.

As my oils will also be at high temperatures I would suggest that H7 may well be correct about oil levels ....... OR, the incorrect fluid has been put in the box.

psbarham
08-05-2006, 07:26 PM
yup nicks right they are gear oil , fine in a manual box , you can put it in your auto if you want , it will save you a fortune in petrol and tyres coz it wont do bugger all in the forward motion department

Kieran
08-05-2006, 09:24 PM
Found a retailer in Sweden, but there are two alternatives:
GEAR LUBE 75W-90 (AGR)
or
GEAR LUBE 85W-140 (AGO)

Which one do I go for?

Don't got for those Kalle! They're gear oils... the AGR is okay for your rear diff and transfer box, but not for your gearbox, which needs Automatic Transmission fluid. The Stuff you need is this:

http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/automatic_transmission_fluid.html

Kalle
11-05-2006, 08:40 AM
Have checked doing the same procedure when the vehicle has just heated up and there's no problem at all... However it changes gears a little strange on third gear when cold, but I assume that is normal?

Another related question
When using the tiptronic mode for driving fast you should keep the gas pedal down completely when changing gears, right? Is it normal that the engine revs up another 500rpm when changing and then it goes back to the normal rpm for the new gear? At what rpm do you guys change gears up? 6500?

bradc
11-05-2006, 08:46 AM
I sometimes lift off between tiptronic changes, if you do it just right it sounds like a manual :D Most of the time I don't change the position of the throttle at all through the upchange.

If I'm trying to go fast then I'll change up anywhere between 6000 and 6500

Kalle
05-06-2006, 12:38 PM
I have now phoned the mitsubishi center that serviced my car last year when they replaced cambelt, tensioner and autobox oil. It appears that it was no standard service, just a request from the owner M Jones. So the pulleys, waterpump, spark plugs, etc was not changed as would have been normal to do for the big service.. :(

They claim they have changed the autobox oil to Mitsubishis own "Dire queen" oil?? Did I heard right? Is it really called "dire queen"?? Does anyone know what oil Mitsubishi uses for the tiptronic box?

Roadrunner
05-06-2006, 02:08 PM
They claim they have changed the autobox oil to Mitsubishis own "Dire queen" oil?? Did I heard right? Is it really called "dire queen"?? Does anyone know what oil Mitsubishi uses for the tiptronic box?
Mitsubishi recommend their own brand DiaQueen SP-III ATF and you shouldn't have any problems using that. Your symptoms still suggest the fluid level is low - engine revving +500 between changes is symptomatic of that too. It should be easily checked ...

Kalle
05-06-2006, 02:13 PM
It was a little hard to see on the dipstick but I think my levels were just fine...
Could this mean I have some mechanical problems inside the gearbox?

amsoil
05-06-2006, 07:05 PM
Mitzis SP III is the correct fluid for the triptronic box. If you can find that it had the full 8.7 Litres or thereabouts put in then we know it got a complete change at that time. If we assume that the trip was fine before the track day then we must assume that it was the track day that caused the slip and that is likely to be from heat buildup. I do not know for sure if the SP III is a mineral oil but strongly suspect it is (anyone know for sure?) If you dip the oil and smell it you may be able to smell the burnt part? If the oil is no longer clear red but has a shade of brown or worse that also would indicate that the oil has burnt. All I would suggest is that if the box still slips and you continue to use it it will die. You can either get a full change to freash SP III or you have a deal to get Amsoil over there. Either is cheaper than a new box. If you are going to track the car again best you make it Amsoil ATF as it is synthetic and can take 100 degrees more temp without breaking down. Being realistic thare are no certainties now you must take your best shot and see if lady luck is on your side. I wish you luck.

Kalle
05-06-2006, 10:25 PM
I will not race the car any more until I know for certain what is the problem with my gearbox..
The ATF looks very clear (could barely see it on the dipstick) smells ok and are on the correct level.

I haven't had a tiptronic before so I can't compare.. but I think it changes gears a little weird even when it is at normal temp. I have noticed that similiar behaviour to that of the track day has occured when braking a little bit harder than usual and thus not pushing the gaspedal for a period of time while the rpm goes down quite a bit, then the gear clonks in a bit rough

Will try to contact the previous owner to ask how the car was behaving before the ATF change

Kalle
06-06-2006, 01:23 PM
Hmmm.. A few days after I bought the car I took it in for a complete test of the condition of the car and specifically asked what the oil from underneith came from. The technician said it was from the front turbo and the ATF level was just fine.

I have later checked the ATF oil level and it was fine then also.

Now I have the car in for building a downpipe and the technician there said the leakage was from the autobox! not the turbo... /pan
So this makes a lot more sense considering the behaviour of the gearshifting...
And you guys were right after all! :2thumbsup

What is the usual problem when the autobox is leaking?

Kieran
06-06-2006, 08:24 PM
What is the usual problem when the autobox is leaking?

Torque convertor seal. You'll see dribbles all over the bottom of the gearbox,mainly where the box mates to the engine (I think?).

It's very common, but a sod to fix. The part costs about £10, but you need to split the gearbox from the engine to fit it.

amsoil
06-06-2006, 09:37 PM
/Is this the bit where we all say ....... WRD :2thumbsup

Then again no as Kalle is in Sweden pan /pan

OSiRiS
06-06-2006, 10:54 PM
Read my thread here:
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16875

Be careful.

Kalle
07-06-2006, 08:42 AM
Torque convertor seal. You'll see dribbles all over the bottom of the gearbox,mainly where the box mates to the engine (I think?).

It's very common, but a sod to fix. The part costs about £10, but you need to split the gearbox from the engine to fit it.

Will it look something like this:
http://www.soederman.se/Leggie/Under02.JPG

Kieran
07-06-2006, 07:32 PM
Yeah, looks about right in my view. Best place to start anyway I think, seeing as it's such a common issue

Kalle
07-06-2006, 08:21 PM
Guide on how to change it anyone? :D /help

Dream Weaver
09-06-2006, 11:26 AM
Hej Kalle

I know its not directly related to your problem but you might like to read this and let me have your comments.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=161083#post161083

Kalle
21-06-2006, 10:24 PM
The seals have now been changed and box flushed and refilled with Amsoil!
Thought this would do the trick but it smells a bit burnt when starting up.. :inquisiti /help

Could this mean I need to change the clutch disc??
Is if safe to drive until it breaks and then switch cluch disc, or do I risk other things to brake?

I saw this kit on funkystyling..


OS Giken Clutch Kit - Twin Plate - Legnum VR4 E-EC5W 6A13
Item number 444001347
Pressed steel cover, Twin plate with sprung hub.

Kit includes:

Flywheel
2x Disc
Pressure plate
Clutch cover

Suitable for:

Legnum VR4 E-EC5W 6A13
Price : £ 995.00 (plus postage)

Is it for the manual or auto gearbox?

You think this would solve my problem or could it be something else?

Kieran
21-06-2006, 10:32 PM
Thought this would do the trick but it smells a bit burnt when starting up.. :inquisiti /help

Make sure it's not just ATF that's dribbled down the gearbox when it's been filled - The filler spout (the gearbox dipstick tube) airlocks quite easily and when it clears, it tends to 'cough' ATF back out, all over the place. - Might be that.

That clutch is for a manual... the clutch packs in the autobox are probably something that should only be changed if the gearbox is rebuilt.....:inquisiti

HJM
21-06-2006, 11:56 PM
Haven't read all this thread but once our TC seal was fixed (cheers WRD :2thumbsup ), we burnt off ATF for a while - so it could just be that, as K says :inquisiti


J

Kalle
22-06-2006, 11:25 AM
Went for a trip with the car today and now it does not smell anything :D

However it does change gears a bit rough sometimes.. :(

amsoil
22-06-2006, 11:43 AM
Went for a trip with the car today and now it does not smell anything :D

However it does change gears a bit rough sometimes.. :(

Just wondered if you have reset your triptronic ECU to let it relearn changing gear with the correct grade of fluid? The experts here say it will take about 200 miles.

I-S
22-06-2006, 01:42 PM
Mine took longer than that, but in fairness the TCU wasn't reset.

Kalle
22-06-2006, 02:05 PM
Hmm that's true, just have to wait and see then! :D

Resetting is just disconnecting the battery right?

PS
10 Litres of ATF is not sufficient when changing all ATF, I used more than 13 Litres...

MickeNR
22-06-2006, 08:25 PM
Just wondered if you have reset your triptronic ECU to let it relearn changing gear with the correct grade of fluid? The experts here say it will take about 200 miles.


I took away the battery + for 2 min maybe tho short?
Kalle check the atf level after a while.

MickeNR
22-06-2006, 08:30 PM
Kalle can take a photo one of the seal on the tc he has one of it. all the selings in the tc was horrible. :book:

Kalle
22-06-2006, 11:47 PM
Yes, will take some photos on the old sealings later and put it up here.

Will try to measure the ATF level from time to time, but I've heard that it could be quite tricky getting it completely horisontal, and going through al lthe gears etc..

Kalle
26-06-2006, 11:45 PM
After a little more driving it is much smoother in the gear changes, however it is still jerky from time to time, mostly from 4th to 5th gear

amsoil
01-07-2006, 08:42 AM
Sounds like you are nearly there. Time may well smooth out the 4-5 change as not only the ECU gets used to your driving style but the Amsoil synthetic ATF eats away at any varnish and remaining deposits that can affect the hydrolics pistons and valves, this takes time. As for racing again, shouldn't be a problem as this stuff goes in chevys with autos that race at Santa Pod. Besides racing your car may actually run a little cooler, thats a good sign.

Regards Don

Kalle
14-07-2006, 09:33 AM
Can you have too high level of ATF? and what will be the symptoms..?
My ATF level stick is covered in ATF all the way (and yes I wiped it off before I measured..)

I experienced a similar problem as described above when I tested my new Brembos.. was in automatic mode driving quite fast and then pushed the brake down completely, wow it really stopped fast :speechles :evilgrin: :2thumbsup
However when I pushed the gas pedal to continue driving the gearbox revved like it was in neautral for a short moment before it slammed in the correct gear..

It is almost like the gearbox doesn't understand that the speed has changed dramatically and that it is not fast enough to change down to the correct gear. Instead the car tries to accelerate during a gearchange, hence the slipping..?

Could my guess be correct?

Anyone experienced the same problem?

psbarham
15-07-2006, 08:58 AM
sounds like you've over filled it , before you go and drain a load out though , how did you measure the level ? the engine needs to be running and the gearbox in neutral and warm to get the right reading , if it is over filled it will soon start poping seals all over the place

Kalle
08-08-2006, 12:39 PM
I think it's probably simpler than this. I'd suspect the ATF level is low. Warn the car up, stop on level ground, move the lever through from P to D and back, stopping at each click to ensure the ATF gets round the box, then check the level with the engine running. These boxes are very sensitive to having the correct ATF level and your symptom suggests the level is low.

I have had problems getting a good reading on my ATF level, I tended to get the dipstick completely soaked or completely dry.. (this was after the complete flush and change to Amsoil)

It turned out that it got soaked when I moved the lever from P to D and back. And it was dry when I didn't move the lever back and forth..

The correct way to measure the ATF level is to measure while engine is hot, on level ground and with the lever in Neutral! Just as psbarham said! Moving the lever from P to D and back is only necessary when oil has just been filled up, if it is done prior to reading the dipstick the ATF will splash up and soak it completely.

My box was acting pretty good right after the flush, but then it started to show the same behaviour again. A friend of a friend work at Mitsubishi and told me this. So I checked the ATF level again, hmm no oil on the dipstick... Filled her up with my last 1Liter of Amsoil (have now used 15L for the flushing and filling it up) now I think I can see that the bottom of the stick got oil on it.. Still probably need another 0,6-1,2 L before it is on correct level.

Anyway, the car is significantly better changing the gears and no symptoms of slipping when braking fast and then pushing the pedal to accelerate. :2thumbsup

I am stunned that the car needs 16Liters of ATF for a complete flush... is there something wrong?? No puddles under the car from leaking ATF, but it has to go somewhere..!?

Kalle
08-08-2006, 12:45 PM
Maybe it should be a sticky on how to measure the ATF level correct!

amsoil
08-08-2006, 10:03 PM
Anyway, the car is significantly better changing the gears and no symptoms of slipping when braking fast and then pushing the pedal to accelerate. :2thumbsup

I am stunned that the car needs 16Liters of ATF for a complete flush... is there something wrong?? No puddles under the car from leaking ATF, but it has to go somewhere..!?

Pleased to hear that you are getting there; I think that 16L must be about the record. Just wondering just how bad the old fluid was?

Kalle
09-08-2006, 07:25 AM
The old ATF was black...

BTW
What changing intervall is necessary with the Amsoil ATF?

Kieran
09-08-2006, 07:41 AM
Black?? Oh dear.... That's REALLY not good!!:undecided

As for the amsoil change interval, not sure yet. I would recommend you check it each time you do an oil change. blot the dipstick onto a sheet of clean white paper and check the colour that way.

amsoil
09-08-2006, 12:37 PM
:happy:
The old ATF was black...

BTW
What changing intervall is necessary with the Amsoil ATF?


What you are saying is explaining the problems you have been having. Black is death to an auto/trip box and indicates oil breakdown burning excessive heat and generally a new gearbox. It will be a month or 2 for the Amsoil ATF to errode the varnishes and deposites that will still be around the system. Will also take your Trip a while to relearn and get used to your driving pattern and the way the box is now performing.
As to change interval..... there isn't a fixed one really, Just keep an eye on the colour as K says. Your interval is likely to be shorter because of the circumstances; having said that I wouldn't be expecting to sell you any more this year or even well into next so don't panic. The rule of thumb is generally 2 to 3 times the change period of dextron 3 (not that anyone should be using it in these boxes anyway)or mitzis own. Assuming you have 'got away with it' so to speak, which will become clear quite quickly, there is no reason why you cant abuse the car again. The seals are likely to go before the synthetic ATF is troubled; it can by design take a significantly higher temperature.
I have not yet knowingly sold anyone Amsoil ATF to replace Amsoil ATF that needed to be changed! (but there must come a time, sometime) And I've been selling it for a few years now including racing cars and drag car; it really is that good.