Silverstone WRC Dyno Day Results Thread

[bernmc]

Well, I'm back - had to leave early to get some studying in, unfortunately. I'm sure there'll be plenty of pics when other peops start getting back.

I thought we could post our graphs along with car and mod details, so that this turns into a good resource thread. I'm very pleased with my 193BHP at the wheels... but I'm near the bottom of the pile, as you'll see later!

Car: 1996 Legnum VR4 (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=42) (quoted std BHP on jap fuel: 260)
Mods: PowerEnterprise Hybrid PBC Boost Controller (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15674) at 0.8bar; Adjustable FPR

Max Power at the wheels: 193.0BHP (144kW)
Max Torque: 264 ft/lb (358NM)

Graphs attached in pdf format

EDIT: Removed ID from graphs.

[Kieran]

Bern - that PDF is still showing your VRM. Might want to edit it?

[Kieran]

Just had a closer look. Interesting graph! Just look at those AFRs though!!:speechles You'd easily get more response by sorting them out!!:speechles

Not a bad boost curve either. Seems to hold the 11.6psi you've set it to, with a slight spike. Nice result!

[Brunty]

Just spoken to Wildcards - sounds like it's been a good event - just don't be too judgmental on his not-so SuperVR4, he's a bit sensitive about it!

[RED]

It must have been a good day I haven't seen Marcus for the last 12 hours:rolleyes4

[colVR4]

A great day, although I also had to leave early. In my defence I was the first one in the queue in the morning and had the honour of first car on the rollers. :happy:

The figures? Well, the car ran 174.2 hp at the wheels, which works at at approximately 246 hp at the flywheel.

The only engine mods to the car are a decat and a cone filter, so the car is pretty standard otherwise. Other standard cars running today were showing similar figures.

The graphs attached to show a problem with the standard actuators, where they shut off boost initially before starting to build again. An EBC would correct that of course. Also the fuelling was incredibly rich; off their scale from 4500 revs upwards.

It was great to meet some new people and see some old faces.

And as bonus, after speaking to the owner, Andy I think his name was, there may be a deal in the pipeline for those of us who want to go down the UniChip route. I will start another thread giving the details of that later. :2thumbsup

[lo-fasty]

Got the second Highest 4wd VR-4 :2thumbsup 208.7bhp at the wheels yeh baby :2thumbsup Well happy:2thumbsup Great day nice to meet you all, great bunch of people

[BraindG]

Could we please upload the images to CVR4? rather than using the IMG tag?

(p.s. IMG tag will be disabled tomorrow)

[lo-fasty]

I can't do that can only just get online and shut my computer down again/pan sorry

[bernmc]

Interesting to compare Lo-fasty's graphs with mine (he's the other purple VR4 in the Village :|, Manual transmission vs my auto) - shapes are virtually identical, except for the boost curve where his (manual boost controller) falls off a bit more quickly.

The WRC boys were estimating an additional 7% loss from the torque convertor as compared to a manual transmission. This means that although I develop less power at the wheels, our estimated flywheel HP is the same.

Lo-fatty developes peak power at 6000 rpm, boost of around 10psi. I develope peak power at 6000rpm but at a boost of around 12psi. Would that not suggest that (as most other things about the engines should be about equal) that my engine is developing more power, and that we are in fact loosing more than 7% through the slush convertor?

I'm very interested in the amount of power we waste through these bloody autoboxes.

[lo-fasty]

Lo-fatty developes peak power at 6000 rpm,

I'm very interested in the amount of power we waste through these bloody autoboxes.
Less of the name calling "LO-fatty" /Grrr Just because I got more power than you! LOL!

[bernmc]

Rats. Forgot that pre-facelift manuals were 280bhp standard, which may mean that there are other engine differences apart from boost...? We missed an opportunity to dyno the manual in standard form - would've been 5mins to get that MBC out. :(:(:(

[zentac]

will have to take mine down there when its done as a comparison.

[Kieran]

Come on then! Where's everyone else's results?!?!/pan /pan I wanna see!

[lo-fasty]

Was a very good dyno and would recommend them, will use again when I've done a few more mods

[The Vee]

What an amazing turnout. Galants/leggies everywhere. Loads of 'em!! Great to see loads of new faces too. Will post charts later, but ye ole scud produced 256.9 - no extra boost, nuffin. So very pleased, produces manufacturers figures, engine must be half decent. Works out to about 220 at the wheels (FWD):2thumbsup :iloveyou:

[Wodjno]

Great day :2thumbsup Good to meets Lot's and Lot's of new faces /wave

Some very good figures seen on the Dyno, also good to see that all cars that went on the Dyno had diffent mods, so giving a wide range of resukts. :happy:
Not such a good day for me as i posted the lowest WHP of 167bhp. :speechles
Theres a long way to go with this tuning lark yet, i think i better start reading all the Operation Manuals now./help

Please can i just send my apologies to Jane /Hmmm But also say that Marcus is a Big Boy now :baby:And i'm now Big enough to twist his arm or force him to do anything against his own will :lipsrseal

[Kieran]

Not such a good day for me as i posted the lowest WHP of 167bhp. :speechles

:speechles That I didn't expect!! Can you upload your graphs? What caused that then? Thought your car was nutter-fast?!:inquisiti

[The Vee]

Slight hijack here, but it is relevent. What is meant by the IMG tag. Was going to use manage attachments. Is that uploading to CVR4? This may seem basic to some but, sorry, I don't understand.

[colVR4]

Just a side point, but there was a bog standard VR4 manual (the red one) that ran on the rollers as well as a couple of standard autos. So those of you that want a benchmark need to chat to those guys. I would mention them by name but.....










....well, there is a reason that the wife sews my name into my clothes!!!

[dogwagon]

:2thumbsup


Wow!!

what a gr8 time for my First Post on this site!

First, may I say how much i enjoyed my afternoon with the Silverstone Shoot Out Brigade!!

Second, I have been to many CLASSIC CAR meetings & shows over the past 20-odd years, but none of them can match the friendliness & healthy attitudes I experienced at S/S .

Third, many thanx to all the various peeps who chatted with me about their cars, and to the guy ( who?) with the white Kitted Legnum who showed me around his car.

Fourth, I came to S/S 2day to see whether i should buy a legnum or a -shhhh!- Legacy - and I have cancelled my viewing of a Legacy on Sunday , as i feel it would have been a waste of time! A Legnum it will have to be then ... unless anyone wants to sell me a Skyline Wagon ???????? Cheaply?????

No??

Ok then, I will put my Little Silver Roller skate ... which made many of you laugh as it produced a MIGHTY 63 BHP on the Dyno (only One BHP down on manufacturer's figure mind you!!) on Ebay this weekend , so as to free up some dosh to fill the tank a few times when I get a Legnum !

if anyone wants to buy my Daihatsu Mira Classic Turbo 4WD [ YES the name IS longer than the car !!!] as an economical but FUN alternative to using their 280BHP Beast every day in the Rush Hour ... just let me know! I will be sad 2 see it go, but will be thrilled to become an M3 Basher, as opposed to a Smart For Two basher!!

Cheers Folks!

PS Just for the record:

47.4 BHP @ the wheels.
63 BHP at the Flywheel.
16 PSI max boost.
73 ft/lb Max Torque.

& for the OTHER record:
730kgs : = 87 BHP per ton
660cc : = 95 BHP per litre ... not SOOO far off the 112 BHP per Litre for a std Legnum assuming 280BHP ?? oh and 240 BHP = 96 BHP per litre .



AND CAN SOMEONE PLEEEEEASE tell me what the 'AFR : P' reading means??

Thanx again Y'all !!

[MaserTim]

Well i have to say that i had a very enjoyable day yesterday at Silverstone with you all. I've always liked the gallant and since my brother-in-law Slimshady has a lowley v6-24v version we headed there expecting to be the whipping boys!

What i thought suprising was that his power to weight ratio at the wheels was more than many of the VR4s!!

He posted 194.7BHP at the flywheel which equated to 165.495BHP at the wheels, his kerb weight of 1290kg means 128bhp/tonne.

As many VR4s were putting out 167-195 at the wheels and their kerb weight is between 1550-1570Kg (whatcar/parkers figures) depending on saloon or estate, assuming the best, a saloon, then their power at the wheels to weight ratio would be between 108-126bhp/tonne less than a v6!?

Even the second best figure of the day, 208bhp at the wheels recorded would give a figure of 134bhp/tonne, which is only 6bhp more than slimshadys standard V6 (but for a 15 quid airfilter and two lengths of hoover hose).

I am not trying to wind anyone up i just think the figure are worth a mention.

[Twpsin]

I have to say the same as everyone else, a good day with frendly people willing to give you the benifit of there information.

The only down side it that they pointed out my car was not what i thought it was. they were quick to point out its good points,

its manual
its only 3 1/2 years old

but that was it

my car was the very standard red saloon

max power at the wheels 197.8HP
with 259BHP at the flywheel

I will scan the graphs in and post them later

It is ok whats your name (Colin) I have the same problem

[The Vee]

I too,was amazed at Slimshady's results. Mine always seemed quick when it was in V6 24 mode, but unfortunately never put it on a rolling road. Must see this one at Santa Pod sometime, for it's 1/4 mile - think it may be impressive.

[zentac]

I too,was amazed at Slimshady's results. Mine always seemed quick when it was in V6 24 mode, but unfortunately never put it on a rolling road. Must see this one at Santa Pod sometime, for it's 1/4 mile - think it may be impressive.

Ive heard that yours is quite quick now for a FWD, and may even give me a run for my money.....oh how I laughed when I heard that...hehehehe ;)

[bernmc]

AND CAN SOMEONE PLEEEEEASE tell me what the 'AFR : P' reading means??


Air Fuel Ratio. Divide by 14.7 to get lambda.

[Wodjno]

will have to take mine down there when its done as a comparison.

ERR !!:thinking:

In comparison to what :speechles

[Kenneth]

So who got the best result, and what was it?

Your results seem to indicate fairly standard figures...

The thing that supprises me is the difference between your figures and the NZ dyno figures. We only had 1 or 2 that gave standard figures, all else were up. even the 2 fully standard cars! Jaimz and Ground Control pushed out ~170kW or around 225hp to the wheels. (silly buggers still have their cats in)

[The Vee]

Ive heard that yours is quite quick now for a FWD, and may even give me a run for my money.....oh how I laughed when I heard that...hehehehe ;)


Zentac Uhhhhhhh?? Don't think so, yes it's quick, but that quick, nah.

Twpsin You got a crackin car there. Should look at the positves and it is an awesome car. It is an 8g VR4 and that on it's own is the Mutts:2thumbsup :2thumbsup

[You See]

And at a recent one, I pulled out 198kw (approx 270hp) ATW. :P

[Wodjno]

I think when it comes down to comparisons of BHP figures between any cars ! The sure fire way of getting a true comparison is to run every car on the same dyno in the same atmospheric conditions.. :thinking: As this is never going to happen, the only use RR days are good for is to a to compare the results of your own car from the last time you ran it to the next to see if any mods you have done have made a difference. (Like my Mods made a Huge difference) Even then it would have to be done on the same rolling road and the same conditions. :happy:

[bradc]

Kenneth, you're right about that, the kiwi results tend to be up a little bit, with a couple of standard cars making 170kw+ ATW. I wonder if it is just a differance in the dynos?

[Kenneth]

Kenneth, you're right about that, the kiwi results tend to be up a little bit, with a couple of standard cars making 170kw+ ATW. I wonder if it is just a differance in the dynos?

It could be... but whats the fun in that?
We did have 1 car that pulled 140kW though... but that was a facelift whose boost control actually worked... held 8psi basically the whole way through.

Must be the air... we probably have enough methane (cattle and sheep... not to mention brad standing right there...) to give us a few extra ponies... lol

[You See]

Must be the air... we probably have enough methane (cattle and sheep... not to mention brad standing right there...) to give us a few extra ponies... lol
PMSL! ...who needs NOS when we have BRAD! :P

[WildCards]

My results were 172bhp ATW - 243BHP ATF.

I wasn't overly happy about that, But after talking to the man with the red hair and black EVO, he explained a few things, an 8 year old car, running on Uk fuel as opposed to Jap 102/105 Ron fuel could easily mean a loss of 40hp. So i'll be looking into the Unichip idea aswell.

[bradc]

If you remember correctly I wasn't even close to your 198kw dyno run :)

The cars that had lower boost were in the 140-155kw range, which is about what the uk guys are getting.

[bradc]

Remember you've only lost 17hp Steve, your car is supposed to be 260hp stock.

Out of curiousity, what sort of engine power did they calculate for an auto box with about 160kw ATW - 214hp ATW

[Pedro Fandango]

altho my car didn't make it to the rollers it was a very good day & intersting to see who's car (with what mods) ran what bhp. Because my phone battery was almost flat i didn't take mmany pics tho i'm afraid

so whens the next one :iloveyou:

[WildCards]

Remember you've only lost 17hp Steve, your car is supposed to be 260hp stock.

Out of curiousity, what sort of engine power did they calculate for an auto box with about 160kw ATW - 214hp ATW

Nope, it's sposed to be 280 stock, it's a Super!

i'll get my graphs up in the week when i'm near a scanner.

[Kieran]

Nope, it's sposed to be 280 stock, it's a Super!

Nope - Sorry! 260ps stock for the tippy. The super's don't have any performance modifications. Just checked the brochure - 260ps only. Tippy VR-4s were only 280 after the facelift. So you're not as far down on power as you think.

[The Vee]

The figures

[ritch_w]

The figures
is that at the wheels bhp or flywheel??

[The Vee]

is that at the wheels bhp or flywheel??

At the wheel


























Flywheel that is/pan /pan

[g6acb]

Flying the flag on behalf of the God of GLS Power....

A very good day, nice to meet so many peeps and their cars..... Galant's / Legnum's... no two are the same are they???



BHP @ Flywheel ...... 133.2 @6000 rpm
Torque .................. 133 ft/lb @ 2980 rpm

no mods what so ever - and running on sainsbury's normal 95 RON unleaded


can't complain given factory figures of 131 bhp / 129 ft/lb

However my AFR was spiking all over the place between 11.85 and 14.5 - nothing to worry about according to Andy? @ WRC

Anyone think this is a problem???

James - running the dyno - said the engine would give a lot more with a bit of attention.... got me thinking:inquisiti - especially after seeing Slimshady's v6 put out way more than stock BHP...


///just tried uploading graphs but keep getting '569 no data' errors???

[zentac]

The figures

Nice figures, but your running very rich, need to lean it out in places and you should make a lot more.... Not upped the boost yet I see ;)

[Twpsin]

10622

10623

10624
Here are my graphs as standard

am i right in saying that befor I get the car chiped I would be better off getting it
de-cated
change the air filter
get a bigger intercooler
Increase the boost to 1 Bar

Are there any other worth while mods?

[The Vee]

Nice figures, but your running very rich, need to lean it out in places and you should make a lot more.... Not upped the boost yet I see ;)

Tis very rich, pongs a bit when you get your boot down!! As you say, does need trimming a bit - will get round to it soon. As far as boost goes, yep completely stock. Not sure whether to uprate anything any further. Very pleasant to drive as it is.
TBH clutch is the bigger issue at the moment. Very nice positive feel to it and seems to take anything I can throw at it, BUT it's that judder when moving off or reversing. Strangely, when the car is cold it's fine. So, think I shall keep the uprated pressure plate and replace the paddle disk with the original. That hopefully should be a good compromise.

[stuartturbo]

standard still bar the hks filter but no trunking or heat shields did hit 170 then went down
was a great day nice meeting you all next time i might make some decent power.
10431
10432
10433

the originals
here (www.stuartturbo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/007.jpg)
here (www.stuartturbo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/008.jpg)
here (www.stuartturbo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/009.jpg)

[bradc]

Twpsin, is your car manual or tip?

[soapy1978]

hi there

sorry i not posted up yet even tho i think i had the best car of the day.

glad to meet all that was there and as said in this thread already nice to see all the different car galants/legnums and extra's.with not one being the same in any way

i will post my graphs up in my pics once i get home as not been home since s.s as had to spend some time with the other half.

thinking i hit 235bhp at the wheels and 309 at flywheel as i said i post graphs up later.

[Slimshady]

Well i have to say that i had a very enjoyable day yesterday at Silverstone with you all. I've always liked the gallant and since my brother-in-law Slimshady has a lowley v6-24v version we headed there expecting to be the whipping boys!

What i thought suprising was that his power to weight ratio at the wheels was more than many of the VR4s!!

He posted 194.7BHP at the flywheel which equated to 165.495BHP at the wheels, his kerb weight of 1290kg means 128bhp/tonne.

As many VR4s were putting out 167-195 at the wheels and their kerb weight is between 1550-1570Kg (whatcar/parkers figures) depending on saloon or estate, assuming the best, a saloon, then their power at the wheels to weight ratio would be between 108-126bhp/tonne less than a v6!?

Even the second best figure of the day, 208bhp at the wheels recorded would give a figure of 134bhp/tonne, which is only 6bhp more than slimshadys standard V6 (but for a 15 quid airfilter and two lengths of hoover hose).

I am not trying to wind anyone up i just think the figure are worth a mention.



Thanks m8

& Thanks for an excellent day all – this is my first, hopefully of many, club meets – and what a day – worth missing the FA cup? - yes.

I had a very good result from my mere V6 – unfortunately the only true V6 on the day (no dig Vee – your not a V6 anymore – more a super V6 or VR4 FWD)

The book says I should have 162BHP at the fly

I managed 194.7BHP at the fly – I think this equates approximately to 165.5BHP at the wheels – considering this would be one of the slowest VR4s on the day – I think that’s a bit of a result for us underdogs. Also remember the V6 is approximately 260Kg lighter than a VR4 the 0 – 60 times would be interesting.

From an engineers perspective I have learnt a lot from the day:

1. No 2 VR4s are the same (not from BHP but the graphs were totally different)

2. My V6 graphs were smooth as silk but some of the VR4s graphs were very ropey – the chap conducting the test said my V6 was one of the cleanest engines and did not see any reason to retune. Why is this?

3. A lot of the cars were running very rich – could this be a lack of boost or the fact boost control doesn’t work correctly with our cars? – only 2 VR4s held a consistent boost line – the 2 members had the same / similar controllers (make unsure – someone please correct me) and held excellent lines

4. Therefore should we look at remapping / chipping our engines rather than tricking them????

5. Only 3 of us managed the same / more than Mitsubishi’s spec (again correct me if I am wrong) 1 VR4 with 309BHP, 1 V6 with 195BHP and 1 2.0 16V GLS with 133 (respect!!!)

6. If you want a cheap thrill – get a V6 spend £14.99 on a cone air filter – and you will have similar power as an unmodified VR4 also the V6 is less hungry for fuel – cool hah (sorry chaps – smirk mode off)

One thing worrying me is HTF did I achieve 195 with a standard V6 – only mods are air filter, crap vacuum pipe nicked from work, cable ties and a pair of the wife’s old panty hoes, running on Optimax?

The only thing I can think of is the previous owner has waved a magic wand over the engine i.e. polished the ports – changed the cam profile etc.

If you are the ex owner of my car please let me know what you have done and also let me buy you a pint.

Also:

Could someone please start a read only thread with all the members on the day – cars – mods – power at wheels – power a fly – power to weight ratio etc in ascending order i.e. start a spreadsheet and possibly include a scan of the results
I am perfectly willing to accept the challenge – just let me know

Thanks again for the wonderful day (best I’ve had in years)
See ya all soon


Slim

[stuartturbo]

my air nibbler did not work
10434

[bradc]

Thats good soapy, have you done anything after michaeli sold it, and do you know what the complete list of mods are to the car?

[bradc]

Slim, Gly over here with a 4wd non-turbo V6 had 93kw ATW with an exhaust system from the cat and an air filter, so your result of 123kw ATW is very good indeed, I would be almost certain your car has some more mods to it, what was the AFR ratio through the rev range? if it was above 11:1 then I would say your car has been tuned, the stock V6's run just as rich as a VR-4.

All VR-4's run very rich out of the factory, it is just how mitsi setup the stock ecu, and their boost curves are all over the place too. It is definately worth having a proper fuel controller and boost controller or a piggy back ecu IMHO.

[Slimshady]

Slim, Gly over here with a 4wd non-turbo V6 had 93kw ATW with an exhaust system from the cat and an air filter, so your result of 123kw ATW is very good indeed, I would be almost certain your car has some more mods to it, what was the AFR ratio through the rev range? if it was above 11:1 then I would say your car has been tuned, the stock V6's run just as rich as a VR-4.

All VR-4's run very rich out of the factory, it is just how mitsi setup the stock ecu, and their boost curves are all over the place too. It is definately worth having a proper fuel controller and boost controller or a piggy back ecu IMHO.


Very true but he will lose 25% from 4WD – (I think)

For my little car - 165 ATW X 0.75 = 123.75 BHP ATW = 92.3Kw (using the conversion of 0.7456999) - therefore if he ditched the 4WD and converted to FWD he would have a bit more power than me (about 1 BHP) respect to Gly and all V6 owners

[soapy1978]

Thats good soapy, have you done anything after michaeli sold it, and do you know what the complete list of mods are to the car?

not done anything to it since i got it apart from uping the boost and grilling the front up and that about it and not shore of full spec of car/engine sorry

[Slimshady]

Slim, Gly over here with a 4wd non-turbo V6 had 93kw ATW with an exhaust system from the cat and an air filter, so your result of 123kw ATW is very good indeed, I would be almost certain your car has some more mods to it, what was the AFR ratio through the rev range? if it was above 11:1 then I would say your car has been tuned, the stock V6's run just as rich as a VR-4.

All VR-4's run very rich out of the factory, it is just how mitsi setup the stock ecu, and their boost curves are all over the place too. It is definately worth having a proper fuel controller and boost controller or a piggy back ecu IMHO.


At 5000 (peak AFR) running 13.2 with 165BHP
At 6500 (peak BHP) running 12.8 with 195BHP

[WildCards]

Nope - Sorry! 260ps stock for the tippy. The super's don't have any performance modifications. Just checked the brochure - 260ps only. Tippy VR-4s were only 280 after the facelift. So you're not as far down on power as you think.

I don't feel so bad then, several people have told me the Super had 280 as opposed to 260, even on the day Mo was telling me it had more ponies than a normal pre tippy.


Nice one! :2thumbsup

[Nick Mann]

Sorry I was so late! Many of you had gone before I got there, so I didn't get to meet a few people I wanted to. It also meant I didn't see a vr4 run (except for my own).

Graphs to follow later, but even though the car doesn't feel as good as it did before the turbo fiasco, it still did itself proud at 227bhp at the wheels. (321 at the fly.)

A good day out - well done to Paul for getting the ball rolling!!

The gents running the place are adamant that their rollers give you a perfect reading at the wheels. The have faith in their 4WD figures, but can't be 100% about how much we lose through the transmission. They also mentioned that many other rolling roads are a tad optimistic, I believe the quote was "Well they give you 40bhp for turning up!".

I liked their attitude and their enthusiasm for explaining and sharing knowledge. Next time I want my unichip mapping, I will be giving them a try!!

[g6acb]

They also mentioned that many other rolling roads are a tad optimistic, I believe the quote was "Well they give you 40bhp for turning up!".




Another quote was 'Well Lane in Leeds has a downhill dyno'

[Nick Mann]

Max power at 4750 rpm!! :thumbsup:

[g6acb]

Flying the flag on behalf of the God of GLS Power....

A very good day, nice to meet so many peeps and their cars..... Galant's / Legnum's... no two are the same are they???



BHP @ Flywheel ...... 133.2 @6000 rpm
Torque .................. 133 ft/lb @ 2980 rpm

no mods what so ever - and running on sainsbury's normal 95 RON unleaded


can't complain given factory figures of 131 bhp / 129 ft/lb

However my AFR was spiking all over the place between 11.85 and 14.5 - nothing to worry about according to Andy? @ WRC

Anyone think this is a problem???

James - running the dyno - said the engine would give a lot more with a bit of attention.... got me thinking:inquisiti - especially after seeing Slimshady's v6 put out way more than stock BHP...


///just tried uploading graphs but keep getting '569 no data' errors???





OK... given up trying to scan the graphs in... took a photo of them instead....

10441

10440


Anyone got any ideas on the 'heartbeat' afr readings?????

[SGHOM]

great day out guy's by the sound of it, & great results ! :2thumbsup :2thumbsup

but still way....WAY short of my benchmark 333bhp !! :scholar: :scholar:




/runs for cover ! /help

[Spirit]

Chatting to Andy earlier, it's also weird how different places also measure. He said you guys were all measured in 3rd gear, where as the two places I have been both went into top gear and up to max speed.

[Wodjno]

Anyone got any ideas on the 'heartbeat' afr readings?????


At first looks.. It could be a TPS prob.:thinking:

[Kieran]

Nick - Whilst better than the non-tweaked ones, I notice that your AFRs are still somewhat rich above ~4500rpm. Reckon they've done that deliberately?

Would be interesting to see what EGTs you're getting with those AFRs...

[g6acb]

At first looks.. It could be a TPS prob.:thinking:


OK, you'll have to educate me here..... TPS - throttle possition sensor yes???

is that bad?, what causes that?, does it mean more power if it is sorted or same power better fuel economy?.... what i don't understand is car kicking out normal bhp and i never fill the thing up till its done 400+ miles so fuel economy on the mark

[Wodjno]

OK, you'll have to educate me here..... TPS - throttle possition sensor yes???

is that bad?, what causes that?, does it mean more power if it is sorted or same power better fuel economy?.... what i don't understand is car kicking out normal bhp and i never fill the thing up till its done 400+ miles so fuel economy on the mark

It's not a certainty that it's the TPS, but looking at how the AFR's are suddenly spiking, if the TPS is faulty the voltages will not be stable which in turn will send the AFR lean as the ECU thinks the throttle has been decreased and thus the fuel will be decreased. :inquisiti

Only problem with this idea is that, after now studying your power curve, i see that it is very smooth, and if the TPS was at fault then this would show in your power curve to with small dip's along it's curve. :thinking: So possibly the 02 sensor they shoved up your Zorst may not have been situated correctly, and may have been sucking in air from outside of your Zorst. This would also give these lean spikes. :inquisiti
If the latter is the answer then you have no worries.. :happy:

[Kenneth]

OK, you'll have to educate me here..... TPS - throttle possition sensor yes???

is that bad?, what causes that?, does it mean more power if it is sorted or same power better fuel economy?.... what i don't understand is car kicking out normal bhp and i never fill the thing up till its done 400+ miles so fuel economy on the mark

Well, when the ECU sees above a certian value on the TPS it goes "open loop" in open loop mode it ignores the O2 sensor and uses lookup tables to fuel the car.

Normal mode is "closed loop" where the ecu looks at the O2 sensor and tries to keep the car around 14.7:1 AFR (for emissions).

For power, 14.7:1 is not ideal which is why it goes into "open loop" mode. Standard narrow-band O2 is only good for saying one of 3 things
1) AFR is above 14.7
2) AFR is very close to 14.7 (very very close)
3) AFR is below 14.7

because of this lack of resoulution, the ECU cannot rely on the O2 sensor for anything other than cruise mode.

If you have AFR spikes like you have up around the 14.7 mark, it usually means that your ECU for some reason wants to go into closed loop mode. One reason for this is that the TPS reading is incorrect (faulty, set incorrectly etc)

Apparntly this is bad for power, but at 14.7 you dont have enough fuel to melt yoru pistons and cause damage. (learnt this at the dyno when some dude's turbo car wouldnt go open loop... the guy running the dyno aborted the run, but said that there wasnt danger but there was just no point)

anyway, not the best thing to have for power, but probably good for gas economy.

[caishanvr4]

Well hello to one and all.I hope you guys/and gals all had a good time on sat. It was nice to see everyone huddled around the monitor guessing the next atw figures.So not everyone got the figures they expected :embarasse big deal. Its the taking part and making a day of it that counts.I would like to say a special thank you to darren(soapy) & his dad who took time out to put speakers, power cable into my car which for some reason gave sooo many problems.I aint even gonna start mentioning as the list is too long.Stuartturbo also deserves a big up :2thumbsup My figures were as i expected, as i was carrying some sort of air pressure leak, hole in my exhaust but all the same they weren't that bad.170.3 atw= 240 bhp.However on my first run in march it ran 197.2atw=212bhp /Hmmm you work out the figures :inquisiti. Pic will be posted of my graph later. so who's up for RR @ SS in July :evilgrin:

[soapy1978]

.I would like to say a special thank you to darren(soapy) & his dad who took time out to put speakers, power cable into my car which for some reason gave sooo many problems.

" so who's up for RR @ SS in July" :evilgrin:

that o.k mate think the problem with the lights might of been to do with that fog light switch poping the fuse and the radio side of things not a prblem mate i help anyone out anytime with the radio side of thing as long as you happy with what i done that all that matters just shame we idn't get it all done .

and as for another rolling road so soon maybe i miss that one but i up for another one soon tho i know s.s is great but mybe do a dfferent place to see the difference in r/r set up's

[bradc]

Good result there nick, even if you still are a little rich up at higher rpm like Kieran noted.

[K9NG]

Thanks to Paul for organising the day :2thumbsup it was a shame they took so long to get the cars through I mean at some points only two were on in an hour!!

One thing which puzzled me and others was that Soapy with his manual achieved 235 atw and 309 bhp and Nick with tip 227atw and 321 bhp I did'nt realise the manual has more transmission than the auto.

For my own car the atw figures seemed fine but they were unsure of the losses and had to guess the losses as they did'nt know much about Audi's and had to base my losses on an evo :inquisiti

[WildCards]

I'll be up for another day there once i've sorted a few things out.

[pezza]

Bit late I know... but yup had a fantastic day at Silverstone saturday.. good to see some new faces there and enjoyed the chit chat ,watching the cars on the rollers and the cars on the lil skid test track..

ALways interesting to see how different the cars power wise even in standard form.. There were a few headscratching moments with the calculated Flywheel figure that popped up on the screen but hey added to the fun and the debates :thinking: Nevertheless it should provide a good ref point esp where modding is concerned when looking at your own car... esp as I see the UNICHIP thread has started /yes :2thumbsup

I will try post up some results a bit later if I can. My ATW figures ranged from 197 to 208 in 5 runs and best Flywheel value calculated at 292 from my 206.9 run which I was very surprised about altho a little confused but dead pleased with (despite the nasty power jolts due to fuel cut :thinking: ). Thats quite a power hike over mitsu figures, not bad from a 17squid MBC!

I must dig out my old figures from power engineering to compare the two sets of results even tho my MBC was peaking at .75ish back then. My AFR graph looked promising too..

It was also good to see that the tech guys at WRC were very open approachable and willing to advise about tuning. They obviously like to involve owners in what they are doing as much as possible.. From listening to others who have had similar remap/install work done elsewhere, I got the impression that some places rather not disclose any info and perform the work behind closed doors which is discouraging... I would definitely consider paying them a visit if I wanted to get any remap work done..

All in all a good day... shame about the rain on the way back.. altho that dint stop mr Mann (Thats Nick BTW, as I see that there was another Mr Mann whose first name was apparently Nick's middle name, which is just too too coincidental) flying along the A34 up to the M40! /pan or the VR4 behind me, not sure who that was :D

Cheers Paul for setting the ball rolling on this one.. hope you sort out the air leak... did sound good tho on pick up /pan

[Nutter_John]

BIG BIG Thanks to Paul ' god of Organisation ' :)

I was more than happy with my results which worked out at 272 @ the Fly with 206.8 at the wheels (excuse time ---- My clutch was slipping as it hit full boost so not a true reading )


I will post the results later , but as someone stated before are we going to put together a little sheet with the results in . I will act as point contact if everyone there send me a pm with there full detials

Cheers John

[Twpsin]

Twpsin, is your car manual or tip?

My car is a manual

[lo-fasty]

altho that dint stop mr Mann (Thats Nick BTW, as I see that there was another Mr Mann whose first name was apparently Nick's middle name, /pan

I'm guessing this is in reference to me "Brett Mann":thinking:
Even more spooky is that Brett is my middle name as I've never gone by my first name but dont worry too much my first names not Nick, LOL!

[Nick Mann]

I'm guessing this is in reference to me "Brett Mann":thinking:
Even more spooky is that Brett is my middle name as I've never gone by my first name but dont worry too much my first names not Nick, LOL!


Aha! So it's you! My full name is Nicholas Simon Brett Mann. So a bit freaked out when I saw that there was a VR4 belonging to Brett Mann on the list!

Can I complement your parents on name choice? (Reserving the right to withdraw the complement depending on your first name!)

[lo-fasty]

Full name Clayton Brett Mann, so guess you'll be Withdrawin that complament /Grrr Hence I only ever use Brett Mann. Heard you got a great bhp readout. Would like to have seen it run

[pezza]

Well at least thats all cleared up... Nicks face was a picture when he saw Mr Mann number 2!

Both of you got *respectable* figures too... :D

Nick looking at your AFR, I thought nobles took fuel out??? How much mustve been going thru before then? :thinking:

Before Bern Tells me off for going off topic I will post my results here in a sec

[Nick Mann]

Yes, Pezz, they did. But don't forget it was mapped on tweaked turbos, which should have been flowing more. Now back to standard!

[soapy1978]

so have a look and tell me if you think i need to hange anything on the car please any help was welcome

[BraindG]

Were there any pictures taken on the day?

[soapy1978]

thanks to brain g yip hee

[pezza]

Were there any pictures taken on the day?

I only managed a couple b4 my cam broke down :( They are in the another thread, see if you can find em :D

[Slimshady]

I will post the results later , but as someone stated before are we going to put together a little sheet with the results in . I will act as point contact if everyone there send me a pm with there full detials

Cheers John[/QUOTE]

I have already started a spread sheet with the results - if you would like to take ownership please let me know and I will forward it to you.

I am missing a lot of results so anyone on the day, please could you post your valuable data.

on this Thread Dyno Results: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16388

Also I think some of the members on the day are either using different names or I can not cross reference the data.

Thinking about it, if anyone has had a Dyno result before and I open this up to our Kiwi counterparts please post the results with a scan of your outcome. I can convert KWs to BHP and vice versa but I will need to know if the reading is at the fly / wheels – if you have a manual or tip – and if you have 4WD or FWD

Any other info is a bonus – perhaps mods would benefit – so we can all distinguish who has what and if it worth installing.

This could be a really good database for us all to use and could benefit us when considering mods to our cars.

List of users on the day:

1.Caishanvr4
2.Zedy1
3.Ghanda
4.Pezza
5.Nutter_john
6.Stuartturbo
7.Wodjno
8.The vee
9.Wildcards
10.Nick mann
11.Rally 205
12.K9ng VR4
13.k9ng Audi
14.Bernmc
15.G6acb
16.GT4
17.Lennys toy
18.Soapy1978
19.Lo-fasty VR4
20.Lo-fasty T5R
21.Colvr4
22.Steve GSI
23.Slimshady

But anyone else is welcome to contribute in this study

[bernmc]

If you boys have access to a colour photocopier, you could copy your graphs and send them to me, and I'll turn them all into pdf's. Alternatively do hi res full size scans and email them to me, and I'll do pdf's. We could then create another library page, and file them according to mods or something... whaddayathink eh?

[BraindG]

If you boys have access to a colour photocopier, you could copy your graphs and send them to me, and I'll turn them all into pdf's. Alternatively do hi res full size scans and email them to me, and I'll do pdf's. We could then create another library page, and file them according to mods or something... whaddayathink eh?
Thats a Cracking Idea :) - Most of the images here are already ok to use/convert...

What do others thing?

[WildCards]

uploaded/1747/1147856655.jpg
uploaded/1747/1147856720.jpg
uploaded/1747/1147856830.jpg

[bernmc]

The following hairy lads are guilty of posting cr*p quality/small graphs. Could you rescan them to a decent width (1024 is the max for jpg's here), delete the old attachments, and repost. Alternatively, email decent quality scans to me (click on the email link in my profile), and I'll pdf them. Can you also make sure your post with the graphs or email details your mods.


Pezza
The Vee
Twpsin
Stuartturbo
lo-fasty

Get to it boys! Please post here to tell me that you've done it so I don't have to keep going through the graphs.

[pezza]

The following hairy lads are guilty of posting cr*p quality/small graphs. Could you rescan them to a decent width (1024 is the max for jpg's here), delete the old attachments, and repost. Alternatively, email decent quality scans to me (click on the email link in my profile), and I'll pdf them. Can you also make sure your post with the graphs or email details your mods.


Pezza
The Vee
Twpsin
Stuartturbo
lo-fasty

Get to it boys! Please post here to tell me that you've done it so I don't have to keep going through the graphs.


OI! /Grrr :pimp2:

I saw my scanner packed so nice and neatly away in my storage unit a few days ago under a mountain of boxes.. Do you really want me to dig it out :D I will try again... and I promise to do better next time sir .. :party3:

[Wodjno]

OI! /Grrr :pimp2:

I saw my scanner packed so nice and neatly away in my storage unit a few days ago under a mountain of boxes.. Do you really want me to dig it out :D I will try again... and I promise to do better next time sir .. :party3:


You just "Can't get the Staff" /pan

[The Vee]

/pan "hairy lad" two things from my past/pan But yes Mr MC I will get it done for you later tonight:2thumbsup

[lo-fasty]

The following hairy lads are guilty of posting cr*p quality/small graphs. Could you rescan them to a decent width (1024 is the max for jpg's here), delete the old attachments, and repost. Alternatively, email decent quality scans to me (click on the email link in my profile), and I'll pdf them. Can you also make sure your post with the graphs or email details your mods.


Pezza
The Vee
Twpsin
Stuartturbo
lo-fasty

Get to it boys! Please post here to tell me that you've done it so I don't have to keep going through the graphs.


Can't send you an email from the link in your profile and no idea how i do the jpg thing sorry /help

[Kieran]

Steve - interesting graphs - no AFR reading though? Also... Your boost looks a little on the low side, although the curve does resemble Ariadne's. I wonder if that bloody dump valve is still leaking?

[WildCards]

Steve - interesting graphs - no AFR reading though? Also... Your boost looks a little on the low side, although the curve does resemble Ariadne's. I wonder if that bloody dump valve is still leaking?

The AFR machine packed up when I did mine, the guys said it was on the blink all day, most got it but some didn't. Unfortunately I was in the minority.

I managed to get hold of another dump valve from Legnum Breaking, but the pipe may be kernackered I guess. I'll have a look when i've got time. I've resset the ECU since Saturday and the car feels alot stronger, wish i'd done it before hand but heyho.

With any luck i'll be able to get a Unichip with the GB soon, so i'll get a few things sorted at the same time.

I thought my graphs were quite smooth though, nice and flat, and after looking at everyone elses results, mine are far from extraordinarily low, bout the norm it seems.

[stuartturbo]

The following hairy lads are guilty of posting cr*p quality/small graphs. Could you rescan them to a decent width (1024 is the max for jpg's here), delete the old attachments, and repost. Alternatively, email decent quality scans to me (click on the email link in my profile), and I'll pdf them. Can you also make sure your post with the graphs or email details your mods.


Pezza
The Vee
Twpsin
Stuartturbo
lo-fasty

Get to it boys! Please post here to tell me that you've done it so I don't have to keep going through the graphs.

All done now
Left scans in post as was but have put a link for the decent ones.
me being consinderate for the dail up users (or when i use the work connection which is even worse than dial up LOL)

[bernmc]

Can't send you an email from the link in your profile

Sorry. Forgot I'd disabled emails to protect myself from the lurgy-ridden riff-raff that lurk around these forums :D. Sorted now - should be able to send them to me.

[Twpsin]

The following hairy lads are guilty of posting cr*p quality/small graphs. Could you rescan them to a decent width (1024 is the max for jpg's here), delete the old attachments, and repost. Alternatively, email decent quality scans to me (click on the email link in my profile), and I'll pdf them. Can you also make sure your post with the graphs or email details your mods.


Pezza
The Vee
Twpsin
Stuartturbo
lo-fasty

Get to it boys! Please post here to tell me that you've done it so I don't have to keep going through the graphs.


New 1024 size graphs posted as requested

[michaeli]

Well done Darren (Soapy)!!!

Told ya it was a quick car!!!:evilgrin:

Was it the most powefull on the day??

[soapy1978]

Well done Darren (Soapy)!!!

Told ya it was a quick car!!!:evilgrin:

Was it the most powefull on the day??


yes it was most powerfull at the wheel but nick beat me at the fly wheel /pan

[michaeli]

yes it was most powerfull at the wheel but nick beat me at the fly wheel /pan

That's probably because of the transmission as Nicks car is an auto I believe...

Plus nicks car has had quite alot done to it...

Nice to know all the effort I put into it has paid off for the car and you!!:happy:

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did...

Mike

[Rikki]

At 5000 (peak AFR) running 13.2 with 165BHP
At 6500 (peak BHP) running 12.8 with 195BHP

I have just read through this whole section as I was interested to find out how to get the power out the V6.

Does the figures above mean it has been modded in any way then? The post above it said if it was above 11.1 then it had something done....but what? :vulcan:

[WildCards]

AFAIK Slimshady's car only had a custom air feed and a cone filter on the day.

[Slimshady]

AFAIK Slimshady's car only had a custom air feed and a cone filter on the day.


That’s right – I have a fake K&N air filter made by Ralliart (pretty big non the less)

I have also fitted 2 X 1.5” industrial vacuum pipes from the front grill to the air filter (I actually think these made quite a difference)

The chap running my car during the dino said “even if you leave this car with me for a day or two I don’t think I can improve the curve, you must have had the car performance tuned previously” ----- I haven’t but perhaps the owner before me had – I don’t know.

Future mods I am considering:

Fuel regulator / booster (snap the fuel into the chamber quicker)
Replacement zorst
De-cat zorst

Or the ultimate: NOS

All lots of cash I cant afford after a hefty speeding fine (probably a good reason not to upgrade)

Lesson to be learnt: get a V6 – just as much power & cheaper to run. (Sorry I don’t really mean that given the choice its VR4 or EVO power for me, just cant afford one at the moment so I have settled for 2nd best).

Slim

[colVR4]

Time for another trip to Silverstone anyone??? :D :P

[Nutter_John]

Mentioned this to Paul at Donny :D

[soapy1978]

not for me just yet in need of a clutch first

[Nick Mann]

not for me just yet in need of a clutch first

Me too!! ;)

[Wodjno]

Me too!! ;)

Me neither:undecided

[colVR4]

Well, lets leave it for now and arrange something when we have a few more members with cars that run!!!

[WildCards]

Fancy going to Surrey Rolling Road instead? There rollers are Dyno Dynamics as are WRC's and they do Club days for £40 each including food. Might be good to see what the results are like too.

[pezza]

Fancy going to Surrey Rolling Road instead? There rollers are Dyno Dynamics as are WRC's and they do Club days for £40 each including food. Might be good to see what the results are like too.


Out of interest, what was the RR in Aylesbury like?

[colVR4]

For new RR thread see here:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19612

[WildCards]

Out of interest, what was the RR in Aylesbury like?

This is the one I was sposed to be going to back in August, but I didn't make it. The guys that went reported a good turn out, a good time and some very friendly & knowledgeable staff. The guy who owns the place posts regularly on PH and seems a nice bloke. If people are interested I could ask him for dates and some costs?

[pezza]

This is the one I was sposed to be going to back in August, but I didn't make it. The guys that went reported a good turn out, a good time and some very friendly & knowledgeable staff. The guy who owns the place posts regularly on PH and seems a nice bloke. If people are interested I could ask him for dates and some costs?


Well I think WRC looks like next place where people want to go (Paul may get a *mooodaaay* crashing his idea like this /notworthy altho I would be able to outdrag him if he gave chase :D..at the moment :uhoh2: )

I would be interested to know where exactly this place in aylesbury is as I could go there myself and have a look sometime. Its 1/3rd of a tank hoonin up the A41 for me .. (very nice long sweeping twisty uppy downy roads)

[WildCards]

That's cool, Paul knows I wouldn't step on his toes. But it would be nearer for you southerners. Wherever people go, I won't be paying to get my Pug done. If i've got a track car by then I might put that on.