Turbos, I'm stuck! What should I do?

[Kieran]

Okay, I'm stuck.

Turbos. What the feck should I do? I've convinced myself that I should 'build' Ariadne around the turbos, as they will ultimately peg the car back, and I don't want to have to spend time and money twice on things like downpipes, injectors and mapping, etc etc.

But it looks like a shedload of work, and I really can't decide if I should subject myself to such an undertaking.

Okay, let's get some thoughts and goals down on paper - that might give me a start.... I hasten to add that this is very simple thinking right now... Back to basics for a bit!:book:

*The standard turbos are already whizzing their nuts off as standard, and if you wang up the boost, they turn into fan heaters!

* I want increased performance. However, I would sooner get more air FLOW into the engine - avoiding excessive adiabatic heating.

* This in turn would allow me to spend more time improving flow and such, than fighting heat and worrying about turbo durability.

* My turbos are getting towards near the end of their useful service life. There's some smoke these days, the cyclic noise of noisy bearings, and a lot of oil in the intake pipes - so I do need to replace them, ultimately.

* I want increased performance to a level that maintains day to day drivability, the twin turbo responsiveness, yet offers a lot of power.

So, if you would be kind enough to help me distill my thoughts into some sense, please!!/help /help

[richy rich]

wtf are you asking us k

[Kieran]

wtf are you asking us k

:speechles

Errr.... Was just sounding out?! Brainstorming?:inquisiti

[richy rich]

if the turbos are fecked then change them dont d*ck about.

[ANTHONY]

in the words of nike

[Physician]

I'm also not sure what you're asking Kieren.

However, if you want a reliable VR4 with heaps enough power then stick to a standard set up. This may mean you need new parts of course but I don't know the exact state of the individual components.

[The Vee]

I'm also not sure what you're asking Kieren.

However, if you want a reliable VR4 with heaps enough power then stick to a standard set up. This may mean you need new parts of course but I don't know the exact state of the individual components.

There's sense in that K.
and unfortunately, the quickest and cheapest way to get more air in IS to up the boost.

[Kieran]

Hmmm.... Not quite the reactions I was expecting - Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. The 'question' (if indeed it is a solitary 'question) is not "Do I switch the turbos?" (No dicking about here Richy!/pan /pan ) but "If i'm switching them, should I upgrade to something with a more flow capacity so that I don't have to run everything so hot?"

Or maybe not.... Oh bloody hell, I don't know!:5shots:

I'm off to bed! I should already be in bed now anyway!!:zzz: /pan

[BraindG]

Turbos run hot no matter what? if they are causing problems.. swap em out..if you want more performance from them, by easing airflow do so by chaning the coller pipers to a more free flowing design.. >:thinking:

[SGHOM]

Turbos run hot no matter what? if they are causing problems.. swap em out..if you want more performance from them, by easing airflow do so by chaning the coller pipers to a more free flowing design.. >:thinking:


either that, or start driving the car to see if you've actually got turbo's !! /pan /pan

[bradc]

I'll reply to this in full when I get home tonight :)

[TTV6VR4]

Do you have an aftermarket intercooler?. If not put one on with some new piping to cool them better. Just replace them with some stock new ones. Has anyone tried porting the exhaust manifold and turbo to get abit more flow?. Also get some new air intake piping and air filters on there to. Does anyone know of any uprated actuators that you can get for these turbos?, I know that HKS makes uprated actuators so I don't know if those will work or maybe some evo ones or something to run a bit more boost.

Has anyone tried this Cry02 stuff?. check it out:
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sc&cid=1

[Spirit]

If the existing turbos need replacing then replace with originals, fit an uprated FMIC, maybe sort the fueling out, and boost controller. This should see you into the 320+ps area which is as high as I personally want to be without having to worry about internal upgrades.

I guess the above will cost a reasonable amount, but nothing like the cost of internal upgrades too.

Ultimately, what do you wish to use the extra power for ? This is a serious question Kieran. I know you enjoy the 1/4 mile run but is that worth spending thousands on ?

[bradc]

Kieran, if you do want to upgrade the turbos, you are going to need to spend about 3000-5000 pounds on the upgrade.

You will need new manifolds, downpipes, ecu, injectors, turbo piping, etc etc. It is a big job. Our stock turbos are obviously the restriction on our cars, but there isn't much that can be done unless you are willing to spend a lot of money.

If you stick with the stock turbos you can upgrade the car by quite a bit and get very good performance out of it, look at BDA, Derek or Nick Mann, they are on stock turbos and have very fast cars, a lot faster than stock.

[richy rich]

Ultimately, what do you wish to use the extra power for ? This is a serious question Kieran. I know you enjoy the 1/4 mile run but is that worth spending thousands on ?
so he can park it in the drive with the bonnet up with a sign saying this car has 320bhp (calculated)/pan /pan

[Physician]

so he can park it in the drive with the bonnet up with a sign saying this car has 320bhp (calculated)/pan /pan

Lol richy .................... STOP taking the p|ss! /pan

Anyway Kieran ............ have you worked out exactly what you are trying to ask yet. M'thinks you were tired last night :inquisiti

[richy rich]

Lol richy .................... STOP taking the p|ss! /pan
WHY


Anyway Kieran ............ have you worked out exactly what you are trying to ask yet. M'thinks you were tired last night :inquisiti
Glad im not the only 1

[Kieran]

Anyway Kieran ............ have you worked out exactly what you are trying to ask yet. M'thinks you were tired last night :inquisiti

Yes, I was very tired last night..... very tired!:zzz: :zzz:

In answer to your question.... No I guess not. I'll have a think about how to phrase it better and come back.. Must dash now - looooong day ahead again!!/Grrr :zzz:

[Kenneth]

All bollox. All of it. Just shut up already!

If you want bigger turbos, do it. If you dont, leave them.
If you want bigger turbos, it doesn't mean spending the earth. You DO NOT need a full aftermarket ECU or any of that poo until you really want to push past what the stock ECU can handle. we KNOW that the turbos limit the performance, just look at any dyno graph of a car with raised boost... It just wont hold boost pressure. I expect the standard ECU is happily mapped out past what our turbos put out.

You need 3 things (the fourth is optional...)
1) time
2) money
3) the inclination
4) a divorce... /haz /pokes tounge out at Alex for reading MENS forums

Have fun

[bradc]

Kenneth, I dunno about the not needing to spend big money thing. You are looking at an emanage at absolute minimum, even if you do get second hand td04's or something, you are still looking at a lot of money.

Zentac, Valmes - how much approximately did your turbo upgrades cost?

[Kenneth]

Kenneth, I dunno about the not needing to spend big money thing. You are looking at an emanage at absolute minimum, even if you do get second hand td04's or something, you are still looking at a lot of money.

Zentac, Valmes - how much approximately did your turbo upgrades cost?

Emanage? why you need that?

1) AIR
2) MAF measures AIR
3) ECU takes MAF measurement and adjusts FUEL
4) TURBO flows AIR

so, with these facts we can come up with the following scenario

Change turbo = Change airflow = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL

Sure you can probably push your ECU mappings to the limit, but I believe that limit to be more than what you can get with standard turbos anyway. (Take a look at my AFR graphs, the same at 12psi as at 15psi. If that trend continues, i should be able to hold 15psi at redline and still have relevant mapping with current mods).

Sure, to get a big performance gain you need some engine management, but its not ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. No reason why you cant do the turbos then slowly work the engine and supporting stuff up and increase boost to take advantage as necessary. Just got to have enough self control not to wind up the boost to see how much she will take.

How much you spend depends on what you do. There is of course a minimum, but if you take your time and assemble the gear slowly there is no reason why you have to spend big money.

[bradc]

I doubt the stock ecu would be able to handle the huge change in airflow, we know fuel cut happens at lower rpm's where the airflow goes beyond what the ecu expects, the only reason why it doesn't happen at higher rpm's is because the turbos are too small. I would expect bigger turbos to be well out of any map our ecu's have.

It also begs the question, who would actually upgrade the turbos without changing the ecu anyway on our cars, I doubt anyone putting the time and effort into changing the turbos would keep the ecu stock, but you've made your point, it probably is possible without upgrading the ecu.

[Lillywotsername]

Lol richy .................... STOP taking the p|ss! /pan
He can't Richard............. It's not in his nature. Believe me you learn to ignore it after a while, or just learn to ignore him completely which I think you can do K with a bit of practice.... Give it a go!
Sorry /Hijack had to be said though.

[KiwiTT]

Before embarking on this mission Kieran, ask yourself some basic questions.

1) How many cars beat you now and do you want to beat them ?
2) Do you want to maintain reliability and keep enjoying the ride ?

If you must upgrade, stick to minor upgrades and follow the advice here.

[Kieran]

Okay... Thankyou Gentlemen.:happy:

[Nick Mann]

Stick with standard for the time being K. Get the car so you can drive it again. When you have enjoyed it for a year then start thinking about massive engineering projects.

[valmes]

2 Bradc
I dunno... I've never really counted.

2 Kenneth

Emanage? why you need that?

1) AIR
2) MAF measures AIR
3) ECU takes MAF measurement and adjusts FUEL
4) TURBO flows AIR

so, with these facts we can come up with the following scenario

Change turbo = Change airflow = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL

Sure you can probably push your ECU mappings to the limit, but I believe that limit to be more than what you can get with standard turbos anyway. (Take a look at my AFR graphs, the same at 12psi as at 15psi. If that trend continues, i should be able to hold 15psi at redline and still have relevant mapping with current mods).

Sure, to get a big performance gain you need some engine management, but its not ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. No reason why you cant do the turbos then slowly work the engine and supporting stuff up and increase boost to take advantage as necessary. Just got to have enough self control not to wind up the boost to see how much she will take.

How much you spend depends on what you do. There is of course a minimum, but if you take your time and assemble the gear slowly there is no reason why you have to spend big money.

With a turbo upgrade you can get away with stock ECU controlling everything, as long as your stock fuel system (EFI) can cope. So in the simplest case scenario - you change the turbos, not upping up the boost - the car will run and will run fine... well, you will have a little more lag with bigger turbos and might have a boost limiter cut coming in too soon, but otherwise it will do just fine without any fuel management.

However, what's the point in changing turbos, if not for increased performance?
"Supporting mods concept" - is something as important as turbos themselves. Without some things like, injectors, fuel pump, afpr, intercooler... etc and the engine management system/piggyback to adjust for those changes, you will be hitting a wall all too often.

So as a way to start project like this - you can upgrade turbos first, but restrict your HP-power appetite to some safe level!

The formula - "Change turbo = Change airflow = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL" is only partially correct... of course your fuel system will try to compensate for an increased airflow, but when for example stock ECU sees too much airflow for given RPM it will cut fuel, how will you correct that? When your injectors are maxed out - you wont be able to hold that needed AF ratio, so you will need bigger injectors, but stock ECU will keep same "Open Duration Time" for your newer, bigger injectors - resulting in rich AF and loosing performance.. How will you be able to monitor, let alone adjust, your AF ratios without some form of Datalogging and WB sensor?

However you CAN do it without using e-manage... ;)

2 Kieran
You can keep things relatively inexpensive ( while still running bigger turbos and injectors without any form of fuel management)...

Assuming you have someone or some place that can monitor your AF ratios (and even plot them against your RPM).

1. Upgrade your turbos. Now you are capable of a lot more airflow

2. Up the boost until either of these are starting to give up: Injectors, Fuel pump, Cooling system. Monitor your AF ratios while upping the boost.

3. If you do upgrade injectors (and fuel pump... since bigger injectors usually mean you want to run even higher boost and demand even more fuel flow at higher fuel pressures and that, in turn, indicates your stock f.pump might not be capable to keep up) YOU CAN get them to work fine with your stock ECU and without fuel management system like e-manage... here is how:

If you've read that article from 3si ( I once gave you a link somewhere), you will know how to do it. In simple terms, make an adjustable "bypass hole" (somewhere in your Intake after the MAF sensor). While bypassing your MAF sensor you can feed more air and keep same airflow signal (Hz) to the ECU. It will give you the ability to run bigger injectors and avoid the fuel cut. Although as a side effect you will get more timing advance... which is fine until it is too big of a shift. Don't go overboard with injectors and you'll have better chances of success! ;) Although I still think a "piggy back" is a better and easier solution...

I wanted to keep it short, but couldn’t as always, sorry :)

PS: I got into car accident… :( Car is damaged again. Hope I can get it repaired faster than last time.

[Kieran]

Thanks Val. Helpful reply as always!:2thumbsup



Sorry to hear about the car accident - What bad luck! Is there much damage?

[bradc]

Valmes, thats no good to hear, what happened this time?

I guess what you said was sort of what I was trying to say, it might be possible to upgrade the turbos without the ecu or anything, but the car definately won't run as well as it could, and there still needs to be quite a bit of money spent on it.

[zentac]

my single turbo conversion cost somewhere in the region of 1000-1500 GBP. and a hell of a lot of time.

1st off get a couple of 18psi actuators and drop those on to see if it will hold boost better...I think it will you my not need to upgrade them at all

[Kenneth]

valmes, I understand all that I just had ONE simple point and that was that you CAN use standard engine management on upgraded turbos.

And for WHY you would do it... Some people are on a budget and may need to wait before getting the engine management. if you have to replace the turbos anyway and want to upgrade eventually, then why not replace them with upgraded turbos and save for the engine management further down the track?

I think all this "you must do ???? first, then ??? and..." all bollox. So long as you keep your goal in mind and understand the limitations of what you currently have, then do it in whatever order you please.

[valmes]

valmes, I understand all that I just had ONE simple point and that was that you CAN use standard engine management on upgraded turbos.

And for WHY you would do it... Some people are on a budget and may need to wait before getting the engine management. if you have to replace the turbos anyway and want to upgrade eventually, then why not replace them with upgraded turbos and save for the engine management further down the track?

I think all this "you must do ???? first, then ??? and..." all bollox. So long as you keep your goal in mind and understand the limitations of what you currently have, then do it in whatever order you please.

I wasn't arguing with you at all... just wanted to give another “perspective” on what’s being discussed here…

A) "Change turbo = Change airflow = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL"
Pros: It will work.
Cons: Won't give you any power gains. Won't work right if you start upgrading fuel side of your turbo system. So kinda temporary solution really.

B) "Change turbo = Change airflow = Change the amount of measured air manually = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL"
Pros: It will not only work, but allow you to fine tune for larger injectors and even some control over mixture.
Cons: You can only have so much control with a "hole" :) No timing control, fuel control with terrible granularity (it's either + or - for any RPM and load) etc.

C) "Change turbo = Change airflow = e-manage (for example) = MAF measure change = ECU change FUEL"
Pros: Now you are in Control.
Cons: It is more expensive and a bit more complicated... and you still have stock ECU to deal with.

Running bigger injectors for larger turbos without ANY adjustments might result in AF ratio way too rich ----> bad fuel economy ----> fouled spark plugs ----> oil contamination (span bearings) ----> poor performance ----> in the end - spending way too much money on a "budget" approach...

So I guess you can do it anyway you like... I prefer to do it in steps.

[Alex]

I can't pretend to understand half of what has been said hear (I am learning though), but, my opinion for what it is worth is as follows...

1) If you need new turbos anyway, you may as well upgrade them
2) As you know K I'm not against you spending money on the car, but just remember it's dead money - you won't get it back even if you sell Ariadne - somake sure it's worth it.
3) If it ain't broke, don't fix it
4) For christ's sake don't F**k it up!


PS. I hope this makes for an 'appropriate' post on this 'MENS' forum!!!! :)

[bradc]

good post Alex :) I think what you posted there probably makes more sense than anyone else's

[Kieran]

good post Alex :) I think what you posted there probably makes more sense than anyone else's

Hmmm! I must admit I've been a little surprised at the replies/reactions....:inquisiti


Anyhow, you heard the woman! ;) :deal2:

[Kenneth]

I can't pretend to understand half of what has been said hear (I am learning though), but, my opinion for what it is worth is as follows...

1) If you need new turbos anyway, you may as well upgrade them
2) As you know K I'm not against you spending money on the car, but just remember it's dead money - you won't get it back even if you sell Ariadne - somake sure it's worth it.
3) If it ain't broke, don't fix it
4) For christ's sake don't F**k it up!


PS. I hope this makes for an 'appropriate' post on this 'MENS' forum!!!! :)

Ok, I take back the divorce comment :D

All comments indorsing engine modification are 'appropriate'. Though #4... F**k it up? Never! :d


Anyway Kieran, my opinion is to do your own thing at your own pace :)

[Kieran]

Anyway Kieran, my opinion is to do your own thing at your own pace :)

Thanks Ken. And I certainly shall!

For now, having considered several aspects, the idea of bigger turbos has been filed under 'maybe later'. The deciding factor was Nick Mann saying it was a major project. Sounds daft I know, but I hadn't really fully considered the implications of this, in terms of time.... I really don't fancy taking the Golf to Japfest 2007!!

Plus, having re-read a lot of the posts by BDA, Brad, Kenneth, Valmes and Rhys, I am satisfied (for now) that the standard turbos will allow me to reache my desired output levels.... Though I am mindful that the more you have, the more you desire... ;)

For now, it's back to concentrating on laying the groundwork. Looks like I'm gonna have to admit defeat and fax the Americans my bank details so I can buy some new bushings then, goddamit.../Grrr

Tell you what - that's a weight off my mind, I think I have a path once again.

[Nick Mann]

Sorry bud! I think bigger turbos are the way forwards, but I definitely think it should be well planned before hand. I would enjoy seeing you in the car more often before you embark on major engine work. Keeping motivated for a big project is not simple, there are many unfinished ones by the wayside to act as a reminder. Get the body/suspension/interior right and then relax and enjoy it for a bit!

I have been without my car for an extended peiod this year and I did miss driving it. I obviously think that your decision is currently the right one, but I would emphasis currently! /yes

[Kieran]

I have been without my car for an extended peiod this year and I did miss driving it. I obviously think that your decision is currently the right one, but I would emphasis currently! /yes


/yes/yes/yes :chugchug:

Tell you what Nick, we'll practice fitting bigger hairdryers to your car first, then we'll do mine once we've worked out what does, what doesn't, and what causes most of the effing and jeffing!!!:thumbsup: :d

[Nick Mann]

/yes/yes/yes :chugchug:

Tell you what Nick, we'll practice fitting bigger hairdryers to your car first, then we'll do mine once we've worked out what does, what doesn't, and what causes most of the effing and jeffing!!!:thumbsup: :d


/wall

Okay - but next year!

[conaboy]

1st off get a couple of 18psi actuators and drop those on to see if it will hold boost better...I think it will you my not need to upgrade them at all


Any idea where to get the actuators and is it a big job to fit them??

[zentac]

I got my pair from AE Turbos, any decent turbo place should do then, and its just a couple of bolts....probably best to send them an original pair so they can bend them to shape for you.