A note of caution regarding Bilstein's B12 Kit

[Kieran]

This is another long post, however I strongly recommend that any VR-4 owner wishing to change their suspension reads it very carefuly and considers my findings.

It's taken me many, many hours of research to pin down my suspension system, and I have finally placed an order.

I will be using Tein Springs, and Bilstein B8 Shock absorbers. I have chosen B8s over B6s based on the recommendations of Bilstein themselves - Their FAQ recommends the following. I quote:


23. By how much can I lower the body with the B6 Sports ( not the shortened version) using shorter springs?

By up to 20 mm. That's the typical body height drop offered for new cars ex factory. A shock absorber with shortened stroke is required when lowering by more than 20 mm. In this case, pre-tensioning of the spring which keeps the body away from the wheel under all driving conditions is maintained. Otherwise, the danger exists of the spring slipping out of the holder causing the car to suddenly becomes uncontrollable.

As the Tein Springs lower by 25mm at the front and 28mm at the back, I have followed their advice, though I must admit the big descision behind choosing the B8s was when I read the information in the link below and realised that the damping rates of the B6 and B8 are identical - the difference is just the stroke of the shock absorber.

Link: http://www2.bilstein.de/en/produkte/wettbewerbsvergleich.php3


This works out a little more expensive than the Bilstein B12 kit. So why have I not chosen that? After all, the B12 kit is nothing more than a Set of B8 shocks with a set of "matched" springs. And the B12 kit claims a moderate -30mm lowering. However, the VR-4s with B12 kits all seem to me to be somewhat lower than -30mm.... Indeed Tig202 posted asking if anyone else thought the car sat a bit low.

So I did some digging, and this is what I found. When you look up the B12 Kit for the Galant on Bilstein's web catalogue (part number SE5-8841), not only can you view the applications, but you can also download the German TUV certificate for the springs provided in the kit.... And this is where I made an important discovery.... have a look at this link:

http://www.dvsegmbh.de/PDF/einbau/32006/16/E4-WM4-Y099A00.PDF

The important bit is that the Springs are H&R units, and the part number is 29519.

29519 is the same kit as I fitted to Hordak (my old Galant V6). The springs are only TUV approved for the EA0 (2WD) models, upto 120KW engine power.

You can see the full TUV certificate for the springs here - page 3 shows the most relevant information:

http://www.h-r.com/bin/29519.pdf

The springs are specified with a maximum load rating of 1005kg front, 855kg rear - so I don't think they are likely to snap. What this does explain is why the B12 equipped cars seem to sit lower than you would expect from a -30mm kit.

I leave you to make up your own minds. :book:

[ritch_w]

/notworthy good investigative skills!!

Kieran PI :-policema

[SGHOM]

So you've chosen the right suspension then ?? :smoking:

Are you sure it's up to spending 12 months out of every year parked on you're drive !! :d /Hmmm

[Rikki]

hmmm.... good findings!

If the B6 are not made for springs dropped more than 20mm, what about the B4?
*commences worry!*
I have the B4 with -40mm springs on :uhoh:

[Kieran]

So you've chosen the right suspension then ?? :smoking:

Are you sure it's up to spending 12 months out of every year parked on you're drive !! :d /Hmmm

/duh

/nag /nag /nag /grr :|

[Kieran]

hmmm.... good findings!

If the B6 are not made for springs dropped more than 20mm, what about the B4?
*commences worry!*
I have the B4 with -40mm springs on :uhoh:

I had B4s on Hordak - I didn't know about all this at the time. It didn't seem to harm anything. I think the shortened shock thing is more to help prevent the springs 'jumping' - you'd have to be airbourne for that to happen in our cars I think!! I suppose a pre-loaded damper *could* have a shorter service life, but we'd still be talking tens of thousands of miles, and seeing as the Bilstein stuff is designed to outlast the OE stuff anyway.....


I wouldn't loose sleep over it.

[KiwiTT]

I think my "Ralliart" Suspension is -40mm.

[Kalle]

So you went for the B8 sprint

partno
front: BE5-6746
rear: BE3-6747

Is it the correct part no?

[Kieran]

So you went for the B8 sprint

partno
front: BE5-6746
rear: BE3-6747

Is it the correct part no?

Yes, that is what I have ordered.:)

[NevGroom]

Kieran

Excellent article - Where can I get the springs? What are the part nos?

Cheers

[orionn2o]

very useful post. Will refer back to hear when i have more funds!

Just as a point, where did you order this stuff from?? And do you have part numbers for the springs?

[Kieran]

Thanks guys.

The Bilsteins I ordered from www.motorsportworld.co.uk

The Teins are from Camskills. (www.camskill.co.uk). The problem is that the S.Techs are not shown as being compatible with the saloons... see here - have a look at the last posting in the thread:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18061

[WildCards]

Are those prices per pair Kieran? or each? I'm assuming each at those prices.

[pezza]

Are those prices per pair Kieran? or each? I'm assuming each at those prices.

Yeh they are prices shown for each individual shock.... there's a note in very small print at the top of the listing...

SO 20mm drop on the front would equate to what I wonder.. I think rears are low enough (plus they catch with standard setup as it is on 235 tyres) but would it be a bad idea just to lower front?

[WildCards]

Yeh they are prices shown for each individual shock.... there's a note in very small print at the top of the listing...

Cheers Pezza, my eyes aren't what they used to be.



SO 20mm drop on the front would equate to what I wonder.. I think rears are low enough (plus they catch with standard setup as it is on 235 tyres) but would it be a bad idea just to lower front?

I have the same problem on 235's, I don't see the problem with lowering the front only as it's only a small drop. What's the general concensus on this?

[pezza]

Yeh hope I could somehow stiffen rear but not drop it any more. Maybe the replacement bilstein shocks will be enough?

Hmm I did think about puttin the stoppers or spring inserts in.

Kieran do you have any idea how long delivery is on those shocks?

Cheers

[Kieran]

Well, motorsport world order via Eurocarparts.... And that could mean a 4-6 week lead time.....:dizzy2:

[Rikki]

Well, motorsport world order via Eurocarparts.... And that could mean a 4-6 week lead time.....:dizzy2:

have you tried EuroCarParts directly? I used them and got mine very quickly.

[n13l pm]

I got a B12 kit from www.speedbox.co.uk cheapest i could find at the time, free delivery and they got it from germany direct to my door in 4 working days!

Eurocarparts took the piss.. they quoted £70 more and plus postage!

Great service from speedbox.co.uk

[Rikki]

I got a B12 kit from www.speedbox.co.uk cheapest i could find at the time, free delivery and they got it from germany direct to my door in 4 working days!

Eurocarparts took the piss.. they quoted £70 more and plus postage!

Great service from speedbox.co.uk

hmm... thats strange to be fair. Bilstein directed me to ECP and MSW gets there's from ECP. Wouldnt have thought the cost would vary that much! :huh:

EDIT:// Just ran a check from both and both seem to have identical prices, even to the nearest penny! (speedbox and MSW) £460.01

[Kalle]

I contacted my retailer in Sweden who claims that those shocks are not yet planned for production..? Is this BS then?

[n13l pm]

hmm... thats strange to be fair. Bilstein directed me to ECP and MSW gets there's from ECP. Wouldnt have thought the cost would vary that much! :huh:

EDIT:// Just ran a check from both and both seem to have identical prices, even to the nearest penny! (speedbox and MSW) £460.01

ok fair play MSW and speedbox prices seems to be the same, but notice speedbox has free delivery! better then nuthing.

ecp quoted me sumthing like £440 + VAT and plus postage.

[Spirit]

Got mine from ECP originally and paid more. It could be that as the official importer they are restricted on discounting or could lose their status, if that makes sense ?

[n13l pm]

Hi

I might finally get a friend to fit in my B12 kit this weekend, but just wanted to ask two questions to you all (this is so that i know hes doing it correctly)...

Two of the springs are for the front and two for the rear, which one is which? i got two different shapes?

Same goes for the shocks?

probly seems like basic questions to those of you who have fitted shocks and springs before, its just that my manuals in german!

Thanks in advance.

Neil

[Kieran]

The coils with the thicker diameter are at the front. they *may* be slighly shorter in length than the rears.

As for the shocks, the rear ones have a rubber bushing with a metal eyelet at the bottom. The fronts don't.

The Eyelet is tapered - bear this in mind when you install - they should only go in one way.

If you've not done it before - head into the library and download the front and rear suspension manuals. They will be invaluable to you!

[n13l pm]

oh right, nice one mate. :2thumbsup

Cant wait to finally get them on.. they have been in my garage for over a month now!

[Kieran]

A quick note on this.... The shocks arrived within 10 days - seems that EuroCar Parts have got their act together at last!

[n13l pm]

I finally got around to installing my B12 Kit.

Its a solid transformation. I purchased the kit as my old rear shocks had been kaned and I wanted to lower the car and as I had the money I went for the full kit.

Money well spent, the car is soo low and the shocks have made a massive difference. All the roll on corners and round-abouts have gone and the car feels as solid as you like. Handling is unreal.

One of the main reasons why I upgraded was bacause I didnt like the massive gap in the wheel arches, and this kit has sorted it that out with ease. My front arch had about 9cm of a gap as it could fit my whole fist length ways!! now its about 4cm I would say and looks heavy (i got before and after pics). I need to watch it when going over speed bumps but otherwise its really good, theres no tyre to arch rub with three people in the car and I cant see there being any even with more people in the car.

I'll post pictures of it soon.

[Spirit]

Glad you're happy with it mate. I remember the first time mine was lowered off the ramps and I watch it settle to how low she is. Speedbumps are now your enemy......avoid whenever possible !

[The Vee]

Look forward to the pics - interested to see the ride height on a V6

[n13l pm]

Look forward to the pics - interested to see the ride height on a V6

Sorry for the delay.. the before and after B12 kit pics..

uploaded/2949/1158269303.jpg uploaded/2949/1158269241.jpg

uploaded/2949/1158269420.jpg uploaded/2949/1158269333.jpg

uploaded/2949/1158269454.jpg uploaded/2949/1158269363.jpg

uploaded/2949/1158269492.jpg uploaded/2949/1158269390.jpg


Sorry the pictures are not in the same angle.

[The Vee]

Now that looks good:2thumbsup

[pezza]

Now that is perfect......perfect perfect


It sits higher than the VR4 with the same suspension (I guess weight related)

But that is better IMO

Much improved ride? Good to know how it behaves with 5 people in the car too

[n13l pm]

Yeah the weight on the VR4 makes it sit lower and most of them (not sure if all) have a arch kit so it looks even lower. But dont get me wrong I wouldnt want it any more lower then this, as it is the front bumper is sooo low (cant really tell from the pictures) and the fact that im london theres speed bumps all over the place.

Handling is great, im taking corners and round-abouts at speeds other only do in straight line roads!! Hardly any roll if any. I took my parents to the airport the other day, three people in the car and the boot packed out and i couldnt fault it.

However this is my first car iv changed the suspension on so maybe im getting a bit carried away..

[Spirit]

Did notice it wasn't as low as mine, and came to the same conclusion that it's either the weight or they have changed the spring specs.

Looks good mate. Glad you're pleased with it :2thumbsup

[Funkstar]

Aye does look good. Good pics too. That spoiler you've ordered should just finish it off nicely.

[n13l pm]

Aye does look good. Good pics too. That spoiler you've ordered should just finish it off nicely.

Cheers man, trust me the pictures doesnt do the lowering justice, the front is soo low! for some reason the car doesnt look as low on the pictures..

Anyways yeah the spoiler should look good, and I also got a HID kit coming on tuesday, cant wait to hook them up. I fitted a Raizin voltage stabilizer and grounding kit in today, dunno if it will make much of a difference, but it was cheap so might aswell try.

[Kieran]

Is it a genuine Raizin Kit? YOu might want to check as there's a lot of fakes floating around...

http://www.pivotjp.com/imitation/imitation-raizin-e.html

If it's a pukka one, you'll notice a slight improvement in throttle response - nothing major. I fitted one to Hordak and it steadied out the idle and made him feel a bit more 'eager'./yes

[Andy Teg]

Good read this thread, as lowering is what I'm probably going to have a look at next. Just a quick query - has anyone with the B12 kit fitted to a VR-4 had any issues (apart from looking really low!), I'm thinking about the camber really. I'm definitely interested to see how Kieran's shocks/spring combo works out when fitted. :2thumbsup

[Kieran]

I'm definitely interested to see how Kieran's shocks/spring combo works out when fitted. :2thumbsup

Have a read of this thread - skip to the suspension section ;)

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19205

I won't know for sure untill I compare with a B12 car, but I would say my Legnum isn't as low. Not sure on ride quality.

[Spirit]

Had no issues with mine.....apart from maybe a tad low.

Performs excellently in terms of handling, especially on track, and the ride is surprisingly good for daily use.....ask the many who have been in her !

[n13l pm]

I back that, I know mines is not a VR4 but still, its a great transformation. The car drives like a dream on the road.. I havnt tested it on the track yet.

[Andy Teg]

Had no issues with mine.....apart from maybe a tad low.

I like the low bit there! Think I'll go for the B12 kit then when fiances allow!