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valmes
29-08-2006, 12:02 PM
Look at the examples bellow... two different ways of achieving same BHP numbers. AFR stays constant at WOT and timing is prefect :) , did you spot the differences? ;)

Ver. #1

CC: 2500
CYL: 6
MAX RPM: 7400
BOOST BAR: 2.5
AFR: 11.8
AIR TEMP (C): 25
UNDER BONNET TEMP (C): 47
ATMO PRESSURE (C): 14.7
VE (%): 85
TURBO EFF. (%): 68
INTERCOOLER EFF. (%): 65
PRESSURE LOSS (PSI): 3
FUEL RAIL PRES. (PSI): 43.5
AFPR RATIO 1: 1
INJECTORS (cc): 600

TURBO OUTLET AIR TEMP.(C): 246.75
I/COOLER OUTLET AIR TEMP.(C): 102.61
CFM ON INTAKE: 971.43
AIR MASS (lb/hr): 3432.08
AIR MASS (lb/min): 57.20
CFM FOR EACH TURBO: 485.72
CFM OF EXHAUST GASES: 680
AIR DENSITY (g/CF): 26.61
DENSITY RATIO: 3.5

SINGLE INTAKE DIAMETR (mm): 82.49
TWIN INTAKE DIAMETR (mmX2): 58.33
SINGLE EXHAUST DIAMETR (mm): 69.01
TWIN EXHAUST DIAMETR (mmX2): 48.8

MAX FUEL RAIL PRESSURE (PSI): 80.25
FUEL NEEDED (cc/min): 3056.88
MIN. FUEL PUMP FLOW (lph): 229.27
FUEL PUMP REQ. BY INJ. (lph): 216
RECOMENDED INJ. SIZE (cc/min): 636.85
FP ADJ. INJ. SIZE (cc/min): 600
INJ DUTY CYCLE (%): 0.85

CRANK HP (BHP): 581.71
WHEEL HP (WHP): 485.35


Ver. #2

CC: 2500
CYL: 6
MAX RPM: 8500
BOOST BAR: 1.2
AFR: 11.8
AIR TEMP (C): 25
UNDER BONNET TEMP (C): 30
ATMO PRESSURE (C): 14.7
VE (%): 100
TURBO EFF. (%): 78
INTERCOOLER EFF. (%): 80
PRESSURE LOSS (PSI): 1.5
FUEL RAIL PRES. (PSI): 55
AFPR RATIO 1: 1
INJECTORS (cc): 530

TURBO OUTLET AIR TEMP.(C): 129.78
I/COOLER OUTLET AIR TEMP.(C): 45.96
CFM ON INTAKE: 825.16
AIR MASS (lb/hr): 3433.48
AIR MASS (lb/min): 57.22
CFM FOR EACH TURBO: 412.58
CFM OF EXHAUST GASES: 577.61
AIR DENSITY (g/CF): 31.34
DENSITY RATIO: 2.2

SINGLE INTAKE DIAMETR (mm): 76.03
TWIN INTAKE DIAMETR (mmX2): 53.76
SINGLE EXHAUST DIAMETR (mm): 63.61
TWIN EXHAUST DIAMETR (mmX2): 44.98

MAX FUEL RAIL PRESSURE (PSI): 72.64
FUEL NEEDED (cc/min): 3058.12
MIN. FUEL PUMP FLOW (lph): 257.9
FUEL PUMP REQ. BY INJ. (lph): 241.24
RECOMENDED INJ. SIZE (cc/min): 716.39
FP ADJ. INJ. SIZE (cc/min): 595.95
INJ DUTY CYCLE (%): 0.86

CRANK HP (BHP): 581.94
WHEEL HP (WHP): 485.57

Wodjno
29-08-2006, 12:42 PM
Smaller Intakes.. And Smaller Exhaust ??

Smaller Injectors ?

Larger back pressure ! Increased pressure in the intake at lower RPM due to less volume needed to be filled and maintained throughtout the rev range resulting in the same power at a lower PSI.. Also the air temps are so much lower as the Turbo's are not working so hard and raising the temps as high, this also increasing the density of the air at a lower flow rate. Volumetric Efficiency is spot on, also the efficiency of the intercooler is much better..

Not sure how the smaller injectors make a difference though ??


Some serious BHP there Valmes :2thumbsup

valmes
29-08-2006, 01:10 PM
Smaller Intakes.. And Smaller Exhaust ??

Smaller Injectors ?

Larger back pressure ! Increased pressure in the intake at lower RPM due to less volume needed to be filled and maintained throughtout the rev range resulting in the same power at a lower PSI.. Also the air temps are so much lower as the Turbo's are not working so hard and raising the temps as high, this also increasing the density of the air at a lower flow rate. Volumetric Efficiency is spot on, also the efficiency of the intercooler is much better..

What AFR's where you running at WOT ??

Some serious BHP there Valmes :2thumbsup

Sorry, I wasn't clear... it's just an example. I am certainly aiming at ver.2 as much of my setup is going in that exact direction. I love how my car is pulling right now and I guess out of boredom and anticipation before Sep. 2 doing some bench racing and thinking :) Decided to share some of it with those who are interested. Since we don't have any Dynos around here and Apexi RSM is nothing to call precise (I retract my statement here... we checked it against electronic measurement equipment we use on local Drag Events... and its right on... +/- 0,01%) , I hope I can make some assumptions of power levels on Sep. 2 when I run the 1/4 mile on local "dragstrip" :).

I will make videos and EMU logs of the runs... I do hope to overshoot the 400 bhp mark at least. Although calculations suggest there is a "theoretical" potential to get up to 450WHP(550BHP) out of this setup! Will see how it goes and then will decide on what to improve to get where I want to! ;)

PS: It's kinda of backwards, but I will know how efficient my car is from what boost at what traps and ETs it will run.

Wodjno
29-08-2006, 01:16 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear... it's just an example. I am certainly aiming at ver.2 as much of my setup is going in that exact direction. I love how my car is pulling right now and I guess out of boredom and anticipation before Sep. 2 doing some bench racing and thinking :) Decided to share some of it with those who are interested. Since we don't have any Dynos around here and Apexi RSM is nothing to call precise, I hope I can make some assumptions of power levels on Sep. 2 when I run the 1/4 mile on local "dragstrip" :).

I will make videos and EMU logs of the runs... I do hope to overshoot the 400 bhp mark at least. Although calculations suggest there is a "theoretical" potential to get up to 450WHP(550BHP) out of this setup! Will see how it goes and then will decide on what to improve to get where I want to! ;)

PS: It's kinda of backwards, but I will know how efficient my car is from what boost at what traps and ETs it will run.

So are my interpretations the way you expect thingc to work ??

What difference would the smaller injectors make for increased power ??

Nick Mann
29-08-2006, 01:21 PM
It's all down to mass of air entering the cylinder. But by those calculations it appears that although the pressure has doubled, so has the temperature. So the mass has stayed nearly the same.

Would there be a point in the middle where the extra pressure did not give a massive increase in the air temperature? Then surely a higher mass of air could reach the cylinders?

Either that or some serious intercooler work!

valmes
29-08-2006, 01:48 PM
What difference would the smaller injectors make for increased power ??

They will be adequate to the needs...

Most people consider going Bigger is always Better... not.

First of all bigger injectors will require some fuel corrections to run properly. Most will alter the airflow signal to get where they want with AFRs, but it will affect your timing maps as well. Atomization at higher pressure will be better, but you are correct it will not affect HP in a major way. But why bother if correct size can cover up to the limits of turbos and fuel pump? One more thing bigger is almost always costs more...

I've seen people who ran 800cc-1000cc producing only 400 or so bhp... :sick2:

Sizing matters... Compressor turbo maps show where they would be most effective. Intercooler doesn't have to be too big to be a good compromise between cooling efficiency and pressure loss. Bigger pipes are not always better... and so on.

valmes
29-08-2006, 02:09 PM
What I meant to show was that: cooling efficiency, turbo efficiency, volumetric efficiency are as important, if not more important than simply upping the boost.


Would there be a point in the middle where the extra pressure did not give a massive increase in the air temperature? Then surely a higher mass of air could reach the cylinders?

Just increase efficinces in those areas and you will get 875BHP/760WHP from same boost level (2,5 bar)... although your requirments will rise too! 660cfm for each of two turbos or single 1320 cfm monster! Single intake diametr of 100mm (up to throttle body), exhaust of min 80 mm, 960-1000cc injectors, twin walbro 255lph fuel pumps. At that displasement it will require all measures to be taken to avoid knock... racing fuel, engine built to withstand such loads... and tranny to compliment such engine... that's why I would prefer to run less boost on my engine! :deal2:

bradc
29-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Very interesting valmes, I assume the single/dual intake and exhaust refers to either a single or a twin throttle body and exhaust exits.

What effect would replacement cams have on a setup like that? Is that where you're hoping to increase the engine volumetric efficiency?

Also what happens if on the second example you drop the redline back down to 7400rpm, how much power do you lose?

valmes
30-08-2006, 03:00 PM
Very interesting valmes, I assume the single/dual intake and exhaust refers to either a single or a twin throttle body and exhaust exits.

What effect would replacement cams have on a setup like that? Is that where you're hoping to increase the engine volumetric efficiency?

Also what happens if on the second example you drop the redline back down to 7400rpm, how much power do you lose?

With stock max HP at 5500 and redline at 7400 -----> 507BHP/415WHP

Paul C
02-09-2006, 12:59 PM
How can we put the calculated figures into practice or is it a game of trial and error.Is there a list of known mods that will drop us into those required calculations?What are the efficencies of the stock setup?

valmes
03-09-2006, 09:04 AM
Didn't go too well... at least not as planned.

I came to the dragstrip, poured 20 liters of 106 octane gasoline and decided to go in steps, raising boost each time.

First run, terrible start from 4500 resulted in car bogging down. Missed the 3rd gear too. I think I have a bad syncro there that needs to be changed.

Max boost at 0,77 bar - 13,46 sec. I thought something was weird, since car wasn't making full power up top in fact it felt like detonation was coming out of nowhere! I knew my adjustments were on the rich (sometimes even under 10:1) side + low boost + 106 octane! Something was seriously wrong! Then I noticed my real AFRs at 17:1 at 7000 rpm (Oh my...!!!) and fuel pressure dropping to almost 1,5 bar (from more than 4) under boost ... Fuel pump!!!

After quick inspection it was clear the Walbro fuel pump has died on me... :( and the closest place to get a new one is at least 200 km away!

Well, bad luck again I guess...

On the bright side, the second Legnum VR-4 ran incredibly well, even though on stock turbos, injectors and fuel pump. List of mods is quite short - EVO8 Ogura twin plate metalaceramic clutch, HKS SSQV, APEXI S-AFCII, APEXI AVC-R, full 3 inch de-cated exhaust, K&N filter...

Boost at 1 bar, leaner fuel. Start from 7400 RPM with clutch dump. On first 4 passes it ran 13.3-13.5... and since track was still available for free runs we decided to check against other cars.

First on the list was Mercedes Benz E55AMG (with only 354 BHP). It was far behind the Legnum on the finish line! By far I mean at least 4-5 car lengths from what I saw. The owner went “It can’t be for real… lets try again!” Second time same result!

Then he asked his buddy on 2006 BMW M6 (507 BHP) to try it against "That" :) ... You should've seen their faces! One with evil grin, expecting something interesting, and the other one stumbled and going "Huh? That?!? Are you pulling my leg or something?"... 10 mints later... Legnum is one body length ahead of 2006 BMW M6 at the finish line! Second ran against the BMW resulted in the same scenario. Legnum won again! /Devil5

bradc
03-09-2006, 11:07 AM
Not good to hear about the walbro, hopefully 17:1 didn't do any damage. Are you intending to tune it to about 12:1 eventually?

As for the other results, I can only laugh, I guess the VR-4 got more traction off the line and held out for the win?

valmes
03-09-2006, 12:55 PM
Not good to hear about the walbro, hopefully 17:1 didn't do any damage. Are you intending to tune it to about 12:1 eventually?

As for the other results, I can only laugh, I guess the VR-4 got more traction off the line and held out for the win?

I did get home off boost on the same engine... so I will have to check compression to make sure engine is alive, but I do hope for the best.

Of course I will be trying to get it back in shape. New fuel pump, probably new AFPR... I know the power is there! ;)

Louis
03-09-2006, 07:12 PM
Hang in there, good luck

valmes
03-09-2006, 08:57 PM
Thanks Louis, I will! :2thumbsup

EdmundVR4
05-09-2006, 12:58 PM
Hope everything is OK, Valmes.
I had a Walbro pump fail on me about 6 months ago. In my case the pump became noisier gradually & i had it replaced. Wideband AFR is realy useful when pushing the limits of any car!

valmes
05-09-2006, 03:57 PM
Everything seems to be fine... with the engine.
Will have to take off the gearbox though... some strange noises are coming out of it :oops: .

valmes
11-09-2006, 03:55 PM
I think I've nailed my problem... :bobby2:

Whenever I tried to up the boost I got my AFR screwed up. It would go richer and richer with RPMs. While I was getting CEL (from EMU cutting into injector wires) I thought stock ECU somehow dumps all the fuel it can, since its thinking something is wrong and tries to play it safe... but then Greddy injector adapter came and CEL code is not an issue any more... What is it? Stock lambda sensor interfering with open loop EMU corrections?

I finally got it when my fuel pump died - A/F ratio was fluctuating so rapidly with fuel pressure change and car would at first struggle, then pull hard, when it leaned out, but as it leans out even more, the torque disappears...

It has to be fuel pressure!

My self-made AFPR is probably rising rate not 1:1, as I previously thought!
I just never got a chance to log voltage with EMU and compare the "boost" curve with how my fuel pressure behaves. I looked at the FP gauge and from what I could see everything was ok. You can't really do that, that just shows how important is datalogging!

There are two ways of overcoming this problem...
Getting good AFPR with 1:1 rate or creating fuel maps in e-manage that will deal with this issue. :D

I just thought I would share in case somebody is ever stuck in the same situation...

valmes
13-09-2006, 06:12 AM
Video: 2006 BMW M6 vs. 1997 Legnum VR-4 (Twin TD03... stock turbos): (http://kolenval.ru/images/kolenval/2006-09-01/p9023678.mov)

BMW stock 507bhp :D from the factory.

Mitsubishi Legnum VR-4 - 2,5L V6 (6a13) DOHC Twin Turbo, stock FMIC, 5MT with Ogura twin plate metalaceramic EVO8 clutch and flywheel. Decated exhaust 76 mm (3 inch). Apexi AVC-R and Apexi S-AFCII. Stock downpipes, heads, turbos and mostly everything else... boost set at ~ 1bar (14,7-15 psi)

Paul C
13-09-2006, 06:40 AM
Is the legnum modified and was the m6 in sports mode. I would of expected the m6 to thrash the legnum it must have about 500bhp. good show by the vr4. Is the m6 just starting to catch up at the end?

valmes
13-09-2006, 07:02 AM
I edited my previous post to list all the mods...

BMW lost two times... second time the owner switched off the traction control, cause he thought it was killing performance somehow... and spun the tires at the start trying to get a grip... he lost about 3-4 car lengths at the end again! ;)

Legnum, on the other hand, just "disappeared" from the start!!! :bananadan

Starting from 7400 RPM on twin plate m/c clutch/flywheel combo - is something you gotta try!!! :2thumbsup

bradc
13-09-2006, 08:13 AM
4wd really does help, as would the 7400rpm launch :)

Legnum Breaking
13-09-2006, 08:17 AM
Do you have 60ft times?

I found launching at about 3300rpm more than adequate, at 3600rpm there was just way too much wheelspin and the 60ft times dropped by 0.3 seconds. This was with ~450bhp available.

valmes
13-09-2006, 02:58 PM
No we don't have 60ft times.
There was no wheelspin. It just took off...

Louis
13-09-2006, 06:33 PM
Excellent info, well done, can't wait to see what yours can do!

Legnum Breaking
13-09-2006, 06:38 PM
There was no wheelspin. It just took off...

Sounds like you need more power :idea2:

valmes
14-09-2006, 12:32 AM
Sounds like you need more power :idea2:

Dave, that wasn't my car. Mine is slowly getting there. At the moment, the boost is set to 1 bar and it runs great, except for blown intercooler hoses... small things have to be improved upon and thats what I am doing right now.

Legnum Breaking
14-09-2006, 07:46 AM
Dave, that wasn't my car. Mine is slowly getting there. At the moment, the boost is set to 1 bar and it runs great, except for blown intercooler hoses... small things have to be improved upon and thats what I am doing right now.

Thats fair enough........I thought the 7400 launch was in your car?

valmes
14-09-2006, 11:41 AM
Well, if you put it this way... I did try to launch mine from 7400, but I guess I love my car too much to do it often... I just can't force myself to abuse it in this way.
However I think I will have to, Just need to know what will brake next ;) :satan:

valmes
14-09-2006, 05:43 PM
Set boost at 0,8 bar on Apexi AVC-R.

Quick spike to 1,04 bar and then settled down to 0,88 - 0,84 and held all the way to red line.

Terrible start, 0-100kph in 5,89 sec... /dunce - a whole 0,5 sec could be saved right there or even more...

Bad shifting again, probably lost a total of 0,3 sec, due to the fact that I hit rev limiter 3 times in 1st, 2nd and 3d gear (btw rev limit is at 7400 rpm)... :shocked: Didn't really had to change to 4th, but that was just a test run.

With all of the above managed 13,27 in 1/4 mile run. I feel that fuel and ignition isn't really where it needs to be yet, but I don't want to rush things. Fuel set at 11,4:1 and ignition is retarded across the board.

I am confident that even at this boost level 0,84-0,88 the car can get into upper 12s with better start and shifting. Probably 12,5s there with better fuel and ignition maps. That's on 98 octane fuel (I think its something like yours 95 octane) and boost alone in a full weight car! ;)

PS: I was under the impression that I ran at 1 bar, until I checked my settings on AVC-R (0,80 bar with duty of 35) and then looked at the EMU logs to find out that it was briefly spiking to 1,04 and then settled back to ~0,84~0,88. I need better FPR to run higher boost. Right now I am past the "sensible limit" of fuel pressure at boost.

Wodjno
14-09-2006, 05:51 PM
Are you using the A/F Target Map on your EMU :thinking2

valmes
14-09-2006, 06:11 PM
Are you using the A/F Target Map on your EMU :thinking2

I did, initially, but not right now. It did scare the hell out of me when I stepped on the pedal and car started shaking violently... the WB sensor wasn't warmed up and showed 0. EMU decided that 0.0:1 must be too rich and started pulling fuel from the map at an alarming rate. So you got to be careful with this or better be absolutely sure in your WB... and after couple of WBs going out due to some unknown reasons I just can't trust them too much. Although it is a great feature to create a rough map to work on.

Legnum Breaking
14-09-2006, 06:42 PM
Didn't really had to change to 4th, but that was just a test run.


I was in 5th when I ran 12.4???? How fast was your terminal?

Wodjno
14-09-2006, 07:14 PM
I was in 5th when I ran 12.4???? How fast was your terminal?Why was you in 5th ?? Was you driving in Tip or Auto ?

valmes
14-09-2006, 07:21 PM
I was in 5th when I ran 12.4???? How fast was your terminal?

I didn't really pay attention to speed... :( Will do next time.
I think it was around ~175-180 kph.
Terminal speed IS the best indication of available power... What traps did you ran Dave?

Legnum Breaking
14-09-2006, 07:21 PM
Why was you in 5th ?? Was you driving in Tip or Auto ?

Manual, the gears are a lot shorter. Top of 4th is about 108-110mph

Wodjno
14-09-2006, 07:31 PM
Manual, the gears are a lot shorter. Top of 4th is about 108-110mph

Reckon there a bit to short for Drag ? Thats 4 gear changes in 12 seconds. You saw the loss in acceleration between gearchanges at Bruntingthorpe when you put you 0-60 acceleration map side by side with Barrys. 1st 40mph 2nd 70mph 3rd 105mph and 4th geared to around 135mph i would say for the Leggy would be better :anxious:

valmes
14-09-2006, 08:01 PM
Manual, the gears are a lot shorter. Top of 4th is about 108-110mph

Yeah... it couldn’t be 3rd since it starts at around 100kph and it is not that toll... Hmmm, will have to pay attention next time to what my "uncontrollable" parts are doing...

For some reason I thought I did one more gear shift, which wasn't really necessary, at least I never did it before... I guess it must have been 4th to 5th??? Dave you confused me here... My mind/memory is playing tricks on me?

Will have to save my log next time and find out what was the speed at what gears.

valmes
14-09-2006, 08:16 PM
Gears:
1st 3.333
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.407
4th 1.031
5th 0.761
fdr 4.111

bradc
14-09-2006, 08:25 PM
I'm going to be running a manual gearbox with an auto transfer case, which will mean my gears will be (6000rpm)

62.33
93.78
140.34
191.58
259.50


Which compares to the stock manual 4.111 at

55.86
84.06
125.76
171.66
232.56


This should mean I will not need to change into 5th on any drag strip, and it will lower my cruising rpm nicely on the motorway too

valmes
14-09-2006, 08:41 PM
I'm going to be running a manual gearbox with an auto transfer case, which will mean my gears will be (6000rpm)

62.33
93.78
140.34
191.58
259.50


Which compares to the stock manual 4.111 at

55.86
84.06
125.76
171.66
232.56


This should mean I will not need to change into 5th on any drag strip, and it will lower my cruising rpm nicely on the motorway too

Brad, why are you quoting at 6000 rpm? If my mind doesn't go into "Please wait formatting your hard drive again, pleaaa... ohhh i did it already? Well, never hurts to start from a scratch! Please wait..." then I would say I am changing right before the 100kph into 3rd. May be around 96 kph... then you can ride the rev limiter to achieve better 0-100 times.

I am going to just allow 800 more rpm. I think it should do the trick.

bradc
14-09-2006, 08:48 PM
I was just quoteing that of course - you can change gears at whatever speed you want :)

With your bigger turbos you would be better to change gear at 7000rpm or higher, but with the stock turbos I would have thought somewhere between 6500rpm and 7000rpm would be best because boost starts to fall off rapidly as the rpm's increase.

Wodjno
14-09-2006, 08:57 PM
Heres Brad Speeds in MPH for us Non Metric English Speakers @ a 6800 rpm change up :zzz:

1st 43.87
2nd 66.04
3rd 98.83
4th 134.91
5th 182.75

valmes
14-09-2006, 09:09 PM
Heres Brad Speeds in MPH for us Non Metric English Speakers @ a 6800 rpm change up :zzz:

1st 43.87
2nd 66.04
3rd 98.83
4th 134.91
5th 182.75

182,75mph??? :5shots: that's = 294 kph!!! and that is only a "gear change point"... what's on your mind Brad? ;)

bradc
14-09-2006, 09:09 PM
convert both the 4.111 and 3.684 speeds you lazy pom!

bradc
14-09-2006, 09:11 PM
Valmes - at 7000rpm with 235/45/17 tyres I will be doing 302.75kmh.

I think it would be quite nice to say I'm the first person to take an 8G to 300kmh :)

valmes
14-09-2006, 09:18 PM
Valmes - at 7000rpm with 235/45/17 tyres I will be doing 302.75kmh.

I think it would be quite nice to say I'm the first person to take an 8G to 300kmh :)

Ummm... no. The first one to take 8G over 300kph was PROS Eng. ;), but you will be the first one outside of Japan :2thumbsup

bradc
14-09-2006, 11:49 PM
but wasn't that the one with the 4g63 in it?

valmes
15-09-2006, 02:26 AM
No. It was Galant with 6a13 and those PROS Egn. upgrated turbos (and everythin else of course).

The one with 4g63 was made by JUN. Although they did get ~540bhp out of 6a13 first.

I don't have links to these anymore, so correct me if I am wrong.

bradc
15-09-2006, 02:50 AM
My GT25R's will be bigger than those pros turboes :) Check out my gallery Valmes, my car is coming along nicely

valmes
17-09-2006, 01:47 PM
Can't get used to the new clutch... I am bogging down on start. I will have a video shortly (by tomorrow at most). Same boost, managed 4,7 sec. one time and couple 4,9 sec runs. 0-100kph. That would be close to ~4,55 sec. 0-60mph. Time recorded by Apexi RSM (tires are adjusted for... so if I left it at 100% it would be even quicker).

Boost set to 0,8 bar in AVC-R with duty at 35%. Although for some reason running closer to 0,9 bar.

Ahh... and yeah, it was nice and shiny today at 22 C !

Wodjno
17-09-2006, 01:53 PM
Can't get used to the new clutch... I am bogging down on start. I will have a video shortly (by tomorrow at most). Same boost, managed 4,7 sec. one time and couple 4,9 sec runs. 0-100kph. That would be close to ~4,55 sec. 0-60mph. Time recorded by Apexi RSM (tires are adjusted for... so if I left it at 100% it would be even quicker).

Boost set to 0,8 bar in AVC-R with duty at 35%. Although for some reason running closer to 0,9 bar.

Ahh... and yeah, it was nice and shiny today at 22 C !

Nice Figures :thumbsup:

Wondered why you was checking out the Gtech figures earlier :idea2:

valmes
17-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Nice Figures :thumbsup:

Wondered why you was checking out the Gtech figures earlier :idea2:

I think I have something to post in G-TECH figures :cowboy:
Well, will post here first then will move on to claim my prize ;) j/k.

I am slowly getting used to this clutch. I can now get constant 4.7 0-100kph, even though I am still bogging down somewhat on launch and hitting rev limiter on my only shift from 1st to 2nd. So I think there is still room at this boost level to get under 4.6 0-100... Right now my best is 4.62 (which translates to 4.39 0-60mph! ;) )

With starting part improved, I tried going for the 1/4 mile again. Started pretty decent, as you can see 5.3 sec at 103 kph... that's under 5 sec 0-100 (and even lower 0-60), but was hitting rev limiter badly in every gear change (on third got into gear from second time) it must have had an impact on my trap speed, since I almost felt how car was decelerating between long gear changes on a rev limiter and for example trap speed for 13.46 pass was 169 kph. For 13.09 sec pass it was only 165kph... Duhh... I know I can go into 12s with a bit of practice on starting and gear changing, at the same boost level!

And yes, it was at around 16 C outside... May be I should go out late at night when it hits 10 C??? :idea2:

Ok, pictures here:

valmes
17-09-2006, 05:25 PM
Couple of Videos in 3GP format (use Quick Time Player or Media Player Classic) with 0-100kph runs:

4,71 sec. 127kb (http://four.fsphost.com/valmes/MOV00011.3gp)
4,92 sec. 274kb (http://four.fsphost.com/valmes/MOV00014.3gp)

Axeboy
17-09-2006, 06:56 PM
Very nice :)

Sounds superb

bradc
17-09-2006, 08:09 PM
What rpm are you launching at? Is part of the problem that the new turbos don't spool quite as fast as the td03's which in turn make it more difficult to launch?

valmes
18-09-2006, 01:35 AM
No it is not turbos... its metalaceramic twin plate clutch and lightened flywheel combo - they grp instantly, without slipping... which is causing the bogging down effect at lower rpms. On a stock clutch you can slip the clutch and then let go of the clutch pedal, while applying throttle, which results in great start. However you can't do it too often, since stock clutch will wear out and start to slip not only on start, but under load too.

This clutch is just different - it takes the abuse you through at it and holds no matter what! Although starting is a bit tricky… but I am getting better at it! Just need a little practice.

I am launching at 6000-7000 rpm.

bradc
18-09-2006, 02:02 AM
how about running tyres with less grip, to make the wheels spin a bit more off the line? Or you could pump up the pressure to 45psi or more and see if that helps them spin a bit more.

valmes
18-09-2006, 08:55 AM
how about running tyres with less grip, to make the wheels spin a bit more off the line? Or you could pump up the pressure to 45psi or more and see if that helps them spin a bit more.

Ohh, yeahh! /notworthy 45 psi should really spin the hell out of those tires... that is 45 psi in the intake manifold!!!

/haz

bradc
18-09-2006, 09:51 AM
haha yeah thats true. Now that it seems to be running quite well are you going to continue to increase the boost?

valmes
18-09-2006, 10:23 AM
haha yeah thats true. Now that it seems to be running quite well are you going to continue to increase the boost?

Yes, gradually. I am in no rush now and I have to sort out couple of things... WB LC-1 and AFPR would be first on the list. Also I am still on stock down pipes, I would have to fit my custom ones, to see how and if they give me any power gains... I am sure they will though.

Will have to check for any leaks by pressure testing the intake, do other small changes to the current setup as well. Rubber will probably have to be replaced with aluminum piping and so on.

Want to do everything on the same boost/fuel/ignition settings just to be sure what works and what doesn't. Only when I am absolutely satisfied with what can be achieved at 0,9 bar I will move on and up the boost! Hopefully the process won't take long... ;) I am an impatient person myself and do want to see what this setup is capable of asap!

/Hmmm

PS: I know it was far too long, from the time I installed my turbos, to the time i actually started pushing it, but I had two major accidents in the process... so my work was kinda interrupted, hopefully it won't happen again.

bradc
18-09-2006, 10:52 AM
I just noticed something, it sounds like you've got dual EGT gauges, do you notice one bank runs hotter than the other?

valmes
18-09-2006, 11:11 AM
I just noticed something, it sounds like you've got dual EGT gauges, do you notice one bank runs hotter than the other?

... and you noticed it where? from the crapy phone video clip? I salute you! :thumbsup:

Although what you have seen is (from top to bottom) Greddy AF Meter, EGT and Fuel pressure, so i wouldn't know if one bank run hotter then the other, but I hope they are both ok!

Autogauge shows the rest: RPM (AVCR and RSM can do also), Shift light, Boost (doubled by AVCR), Oil temp. and pressure, Coolant temp., Volts.

bradc
18-09-2006, 11:44 AM
Your sig says EGT Warning Gauges so I thought you might have two of them. I think when I go with a pair of GT25R's I will get twin EGT gauges :) My Autronic SM4 is finally almost there, I can't wait to start enjoying my car again.

valmes
18-09-2006, 02:49 PM
Your sig says EGT Warning Gauges so I thought you might have two of them. I think when I go with a pair of GT25R's I will get twin EGT gauges :) My Autronic SM4 is finally almost there, I can't wait to start enjoying my car again.


Ohh... I see. My bad. Sorry. I meant AFR and EGT warning gauges... as in two of them - one AFR and one EGT :)

I guess my English is deteriorating without practice. :embarasse

bradc
18-09-2006, 08:00 PM
Don't worry your english is better than most peoples.

Where do you have the EGT mounted? straight after the join in the downpipes? I can' beleive you're running stock downpipes with the TD04's, I'm sure you'll see some nice gains with new downpipes.

TTV6VR4
18-09-2006, 09:52 PM
Your sig says EGT Warning Gauges so I thought you might have two of them. I think when I go with a pair of GT25R's I will get twin EGT gauges :) My Autronic SM4 is finally almost there, I can't wait to start enjoying my car again.

Bradc are you going to go with genuine GT25's or 300ZX T25's?.

bradc
19-09-2006, 12:18 AM
http://www.nzperformance.co.nz/store/view_product.php?product=Garrett%20GT25R

Those ones with Ball Bearings

valmes
30-09-2006, 01:04 PM
Quick update...

Boost set at 1 bar, but briefly spiking to 1,08 bar then dropping to 0,87 then coming back to about 0,95-0,97 ... let's assume the boost was 0,96 bar, but you can check the EMU log screen shot of that run to see what it looked like.

First run - good start from 5700 RPM and 0,35 bar of boost... ~4,3 sec 0-60mph, 8,28@138kph(86mph) - 1/8 mile, 12,89@170kph(106mph) - 1/4 mile , measured by Apexi RSM GP... due to tire correction it actually measures slower kph (and subsequently ET) then what speed sensor is showing in the log, I checked the log and my speedometer was reading 178kph (111mph) at that time! ;)

Tried again. Start was actually better then the first time, I got 8,14@140kph(87mph) - 1/8 mile ... and I am sure it could have been a 12,7 run, but I had to apply the brakes early on (appx 350 m out of 402m)... so it netted me 13,04@124kph(77mph) time... :oops:

Well, I didn't have chance to run again, but I did measure 0-100kph time (0-62mph) - 4,48 sec, for 0-60mph it would be 4,26 sec.

I don't know what my AFRs look like, since LC-1 was damaged and needs replacement, but from IDC I would assume I am well on the rich side and can get more out of it.

valmes
01-10-2006, 04:16 AM
Did some calculations... I should have about 380-400 HP at the crank for that ET, trap speed and 0-100kph. That's without use of NOS, full weight, hence "everyday power" and slightly under 1 bar of boost...

Tuning without WB sucks... still no cable from Chris, so I can't even see my NB and still on stock downpipes. Excuses.

This Tuesday I should improve in those above mentioned fields... then will go for more.

Should I update this thread, make a new one or just shut up already? For me 12s without NOS seems to be an interesting topic and may be a record for 8G VR4?? :undecided ...but its quiet in here, so I am starting to worry "am I talking to myself here and Should I keep talking in that case?"... I guess everybody is in members area... Anything new in there btw? Should I go and fork out 60 something $ to re-join?

I hope more people will mod their VR-4s, since it does have a potential to be on par (in terms of performance) with "the best" out there... and to have a 500HP everyday wagon/sedan - isn't it something to aim for?

bradc
01-10-2006, 04:24 AM
I know that I'm reading all of these posts very closely, and I think you're the first person into the 12's with a street ready car without NOS, I can't wait to see you edge closer to 12.5s

Then I'll end up blowing you away with my GT25R's anyway :P

valmes
01-10-2006, 04:34 AM
I know that I'm reading all of these posts very closely, and I think you're the first person into the 12's with a street ready car without NOS, I can't wait to see you edge closer to 12.5s

Then I'll end up blowing you away with my GT25R's anyway :P

More VR-4s with REAL POWER, that's a good thing to hear! :smash: Do yours and we will see how it goes!

valmes
01-10-2006, 04:58 AM
I am sure spool up on those turbos (TD04L-13T) can be improved with "start boost settings on AVC-R" or with the manual boost controller (ball and spring type!) set to 0,6-0,7 bar and better than stock downpipes. Stronger actuator springs will also help! ;)

For now it comes on stock (for VR-4 0,5 bar) boost at 3200 RPM and hits 0,8 bar in picture bellow at 3800 RPM. Tried in 3rd gear from about 1500 RPMs.

bradc
01-10-2006, 06:15 AM
The boost curve is very nice and steady. What is your intake like? Any chance you could post up some pics of the engine bay?

I assume you have seen my cold air box in my gallery, it is a very nice setup that is only possible because I'm running on MAP.

valmes
01-10-2006, 09:00 AM
The boost curve is very nice and steady. What is your intake like? Any chance you could post up some pics of the engine bay?

I assume you have seen my cold air box in my gallery, it is a very nice setup that is only possible because I'm running on MAP.

There is nothing really special under the hood. I am using HKS filter fitted on stock MAF (at the moment... I will see if GTO MAF works any better shortly), stock GTO/3000GT pre turbo piping, stock VR-4 high pressure pipes (cut and joined by stock rubber hoses and clumps), two custom intercooler 90 degree pipes with silicone hoses, and stock intake pipes (rubber and plastic).

So no magic here, but enough room for improvements. I am too lazy to start doing complete custom piping, but I will have a long winter to do it properly.

I will not be dumping MAF for a while yet, since frankly I don't see what coud be gained there? I know that GTO MAF is good for 11 sec runs and my setup is not going to go any faster than that.

My plan is to to fit downpipes, probably make complete aluminum intake/high pressure/intercooler/low pressure pipes, get a good tune, get Launch control and Flat shift to work the way they supposed to...

Then if I am satisfied with results - better heads/cams, higher RPM limit, bigger turbos, injectors... will have to try out MAP too. On the way there I will see when I will require forged internals for my engine. I do have some other thoughts on my mind, but time will tell if they work or not. So here, I told you all my plans ;) ...

conaboy
01-10-2006, 09:30 AM
Should I update this thread, make a new one or just shut up already? For me 12s without NOS seems to be an interesting topic and may be a record for 8G VR4?? :undecided ...but its quiet in here, so I am starting to worry "am I talking to myself here and Should I keep talking in that case?"... I guess everybody is in members area... Anything new in there btw? Should I go and fork out 60 something $ to re-join?


Keep the updates coming! Not many responses but im sure a lot of people are reading. :smoking:

Kieran
01-10-2006, 11:08 AM
Keep the updates coming! Not many responses but im sure a lot of people are reading. :smoking:

Agreed! we're watching with interest. /yes

psbarham
01-10-2006, 11:14 AM
Agreed! we're watching with interest. /yes
ditto

EdmundVR4
01-10-2006, 03:04 PM
I am following your progress with great interest, Valmes ! I'm sure many others are too !
I have just purchased two TD04 13T turbo's & am going to attempt to get in the 12's also. The only other thing I need are 550cc injectors, but I think I want to see how far I can get on stock injectors first.
Keep on modding, Valmes.
EdmundVR4

Davezj
01-10-2006, 04:32 PM
ditto three keep it comming, it makes great reading

bradc
01-10-2006, 07:49 PM
I wasn't sure if there was much need to removing the MAF either, but I did want a complete replacement ecu and I wanted to replace all the intake piping, so I figured I may as well make the switch to MAP and change the intake radically. I've got my downpipes upgraded too :)

When I change turbos I was thinking of moving the turbos to either side of the transmission. It will give a little more room to make equal length manifolds too, designed kind of like manifolds in a longitudinal engine, but out to the side, rather than down the length of the car (hope you understand what I mean, that sentence is rather hard to follow)

I need to talk to RPW some more about the parts needed for a MIVEC conversion, I might order all the parts from there and get it installed locally.

Louis
01-10-2006, 07:49 PM
Hey Valmes, don't you dare stop with the updates, I am logging on every day to see what else you have been up to!, I do have a lot of questions about why you are diong some things or doing things in the order you are doing them, but I wait to see tyhe updates rather than ask why and how, every time you give an update, and my questions are usualy answered later in you're posts.
Example: I was wondering why you are not using the MAP sensor option with Greddy Emanage Ultimate, but waited to see what you post later, and sure enough it is made clear in you're last post.
SO, keep on posting the info, as soon as I have something woth saying or adding to what you are posting I will be straight in there!.

On other subjects, Kev from AP Motors is working on a set up at the moment, but he has gone straight for reground camshafts, forged pistons, lightened and balanced reciprocating mass, so he has fully biult ehgine and is starting to push limits with gradual tuning, should be interesting, will keep you updated.

I, as I am sure many others are, am collecting the bits I think are neccessary and I am looking at increaseing in stages, and I will update on my progress when there is something to say!.
I think that this is a healthy way forward for the forum, where people go about their projects and share knowledge when they think it's useful, and ask questions when they hit problems.
Keep up the good work, this thread has had nearly 900 views, so a lot of people are watching your progress.

A while ago I had a race with a guy with a BMW M5, on country roads, and I got away and was pretty sure he was struggling to keep up, I left him behind, but thought he had given up and was thinking, on a straight road he would outrun me, but after seeing one of your other threads of your mate and the drag race, I am much more confident in my car against the BMW's now, after seeing your posts.
Good lick, Watching with interest.

valmes
02-10-2006, 12:51 AM
When I change turbos I was thinking of moving the turbos to either side of the transmission. It will give a little more room to make equal length manifolds too, designed kind of like manifolds in a longitudinal engine, but out to the side, rather than down the length of the car (hope you understand what I mean, that sentence is rather hard to follow)

Like this?

PS: Btw where are the updates on Kev's car? I thought I saw somewhere, that he was planning on running it on Sep.30? Did he?

bradc
02-10-2006, 12:58 AM
ohh hell yes that looks nice. it looks like a v6 but with the gearbox on the other side, is it a 3000gt?

Kev didn't quite get it done in time, but it may be done for this weekend.

valmes
02-10-2006, 01:14 AM
ohh hell yes that looks nice. it looks like a v6 but with the gearbox on the other side, is it a 3000gt?

Kev didn't quite get it done in time, but it may be done for this weekend.

Yes, 3000GT VR-4/GTO ;)

Well, hope he can get most out of it!





PS:
2 all: Thanks for all your responses. I'll keep updating this thread... ;)

valmes
05-10-2006, 03:59 PM
I just couldn’t resist. :bigcry:

1.05 bar set at boost controller... although the curve is still funny... It jumps to 1.20 bar briefly in first gear... then drops to about 0,9 bar then climbing slowly to around 0,98-1,02 bar depending on gear. Still didn’t touch the fuel, as I have nothing reliable to monitor it with.

1/8 - 8.22@144kph(89.48mph)
1/4 - 12.71@175kph(108.74mph)

PS: Ohhh... yes, the road was flat! /Nuuu

Kieran
05-10-2006, 05:02 PM
PS: Ohhh... yes, the road was flat! /Nuuu

Well, that's just totally unacceptable, Val! :soapbox: The road might seem flat to you, but I bet it has a gradient of at least 0.0000001%!!! ;) That will make you record a stupidly low 1/4 mile time and therefore your result cannot be accepted, especially not if it's faster than anyone else on here, because that would mean you would be at the top and everything and that would not be allowed! ;) /catfight


/Devil5 /STP

Oh, PS... Nice result - a lot of potential there I think, when you've got all your fuelling mapped out. /yes

valmes
05-10-2006, 05:19 PM
Well, that's just totally unacceptable, Val! :soapbox: The road might seem flat to you, but I bet it has a gradient of at least 0.0000001%!!! ;) That will make you record a stupidly low 1/4 mile time and therefore your result cannot be accepted, especially not if it's faster than anyone else on here, because that would mean you would be at the top and everything and that would not be allowed! ;) /catfight


/Devil5 /STP

Oh, PS... Nice result - a lot of potential there I think, when you've got all your fuelling mapped out. /yes

:vulcan: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:

/TTTH :givemebee :toilet: :satan: :bigcry:

enigma
05-10-2006, 05:25 PM
Well, that's just totally unacceptable, Val! :soapbox: The road might seem flat to you, but I bet it has a gradient of at least 0.0000001%!!! ;) That will make you record a stupidly low 1/4 mile time and therefore your result cannot be accepted, especially not if it's faster than anyone else on here, because that would mean you would be at the top and everything and that would not be allowed! ;) /catfight


I think if you read things properly......................

Keep going Val, nice to see some good results :)

Kieran
05-10-2006, 06:04 PM
I think if you read things properly......................


I'll see an unfinished sentance with a lot of full stops?!

I know what you're saying - just being tongue in cheek! /Devil5 /STP I'll stop it. /yes

bradc
05-10-2006, 07:30 PM
Thats a good result, now when are you going to get your fuelling sorted?

valmes
06-10-2006, 04:20 AM
Thats a good result, now when are you going to get your fuelling sorted?

Still waiting for a replacement cable from Chris (Hybrid Datalogger by Mirage Comp) to be able to monitor knock and timing, since for some reason my EMU doesn't want to display real timing... only offset, but I saw it was working on Glenns(WODJNO) EMU... :huh2: I wonder what's wrong with mine? /wall

Also seems like the WB sensor that was damaged, can't be repaired, so I asked my friend who is in Moscow right now, to look for another one over there... He should be back by Sunday.

The problem is - today we have alarmingly cold weather -1C if it is going to drop at that rate (+10C two days ago) we will have snow all over the place and that means end of 1/4 runs. :(

bradc
06-10-2006, 05:43 AM
no it doesn't, just put chains on :)

I would imagine it is going to start to get rather cold over there, and will stay that way until about april-may? You had better hope for warmish weather :)

pezza
06-10-2006, 03:48 PM
Just caught up on this thread.... :thumbsup:

Keep the updates coming.. I almost fell off my chair when I read your calculated sprint time at such *modest* boost :D

TTV6VR4
09-10-2006, 04:42 AM
Hey Valmes where did you find/get that GTO picture from?.

valmes
09-10-2006, 08:32 AM
Hey Valmes where did you find/get that GTO picture from?.

From "Badass 3S Picture Thread (http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=348098&page=1&pp=10)" on 3si... ;)

TTV6VR4
09-10-2006, 08:41 AM
Sweet as, ah crap gotta join.

TTV6VR4
10-10-2006, 08:45 AM
Valmes it wont let me join so is there any more piks or info of this car and any other cars like it?.

valmes
10-10-2006, 10:35 AM
Valmes it wont let me join so is there any more piks or info of this car and any other cars like it?.


It's just a forum... it can't deny you in any way :)

www.3si.org

Just try again.

TTV6VR4
11-10-2006, 09:27 AM
Sweet as joined up now. That thread is 23 pages long and I only have dail up so I was wondering if you could tell me what page it is on so I can go straight to it?.

jerryd_33
12-10-2006, 12:19 AM
Hi Valmes,
As has been said earlier dont stop the up dates. Have been reading your thread as soon as I laid eyes on it.
VERY VERY VERY INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Especially as I am getting ready a bigger turbo to go on my car. Have got most of all the other necessary bits to go with it also.
So, as I have said above ( as others ) Please do put any updates on here to keep all informed.

valmes
14-10-2006, 04:18 AM
I think I am done with updates this year. I've got my silencer in my exhaust pipe (I am talking about Legnum here... :D ) and we get some snow now and then with temperatures around 0+2 C during the day and -5-8 C at night.

I've got an exhaust leak somewhere, if I can find it until tomorrow, will try to get rid of that and install LM-1 for the last time to check my AFRs... I might try to get my Target AFR map tuned too... will see.

In the mean time, I don't recon if I've posted this before, but here you go - eMU Launch Control works!

http://four.fsphost.com/valmes/P1020367.avi

valmes
16-10-2006, 05:18 PM
/Grrr second fuel pump wasted in a couple of months!!!
Only got one try (AFRs at 10.5-11.3) - 110mph... but ET is slower.

Apparently Walbros don't like to be starved for fuel and get damaged fast if you boost your car with not a lot of fuel in the tank. :5shots:

valmes
16-10-2006, 05:47 PM
Who ever got the idea that our stock ECU cuts fuel at 7400 rpm?
As much as I want to belive that, from the EMU logs it seems like stock ECU cuts fuel at 7200 RPM, same as on 3000GT VR-4/GTO... if it wasn't boost related fuel cut. :thinking:

bradc
16-10-2006, 07:18 PM
I imagine there wouldn't be much difference in quarter mile time with only another 200rpm in each gear, and the reduced reliability from running the engine that fast probably makes it not worthwhile at all.

You could install an aftermarket ecu of course :)

EdmundVR4
16-10-2006, 11:03 PM
Nice run Valmes !

valmes
17-10-2006, 09:40 AM
I imagine there wouldn't be much difference in quarter mile time with only another 200rpm in each gear, and the reduced reliability from running the engine that fast probably makes it not worthwhile at all.

You could install an aftermarket ecu of course :)

I do have an e-manage Ultimate and can move rev limit...
I will set it to 8200-8500 rpm and will see if it will have any effect on ET and traps.

Nick Mann
17-10-2006, 01:27 PM
I don't know if you are brave or mad, but you are certainly a pioneer! Let us know what happens!!

bradc
17-10-2006, 07:25 PM
He is a brave and mad pioneer :) Lets hope nothing explodes

Louis
17-10-2006, 08:01 PM
opps! posted twice

Louis
17-10-2006, 08:01 PM
Are you just looking for something to rebuild over the winter???, that needle moves pretty fast up round there, tricky doing your gear changes spot on without over revving (even more!), good Luck