Petrol - inlet

[BraindG]

I had mo round on Sunday having a wee look at the car.. however before i put ideas into your heads, i would like to hear what you think about this petrol coming out of the inlets..
bent valves?
timing not correct leaving some of the valves open?

what you recon?

thanks :D

[calum]

What do you mean by inlets? Inlet manifold? Spark plug holes?

Does this happen when it's trying to fire - that is, is it firing at all and blowing the unburnt mixture back out the inlet, or is it just spilling out after cranking for a while?

I would go for a compression test if I were you.

There are two areas of timing to check.

Camshaft INSERT INTO post VALUES (valve timing) and ignition timing. If it is firing and blowing the mixture back out, it may be that the ignition timing sensor is in the wrong place/ damaged. But I would do a compression test first.

Calum

[zedy1]

fuel coming out of the inlet manifold were the black pipe goes on
look at the pic circled yellow

[calum]

and is it trying to fire at all?

If it is, it may well be blowing the mixture back through before the valves are closed.

Three possible causes for this.

1) Ignition timing WAY too far advanced.
2) Valves knackered INSERT INTO post VALUES (bent and not sealing)
3) Fuel injection at wrong time. Squirting fuel when the valves are shut - can be due to wrong cam timing.

With that much fuel sloshing around I'd get the plugs out and wind it over at WOT INSERT INTO post VALUES (clears flooding).

Do you have a spark? If it is nearly working Ok then putting one of the plugs in it's lead and just resting it on the edge of the hole INSERT INTO post VALUES (don't hold it unless you're well insulated!) should give you little explosions.

Are you sure you've got the plug leads on in the correct order?

Also, if you do get it running, change your oil as fuel will have passed the rings and ruined the oil.

Calum

[BraindG]

Originally posted by calum
and is it trying to fire at all?


yes when i first turn it over, it just about starts but then dies, and just goes back to turning over...



Originally posted by calum
With that much fuel sloshing around I'd get the plugs out and wind it over at WOT INSERT INTO post VALUES (clears flooding).


ex-squeeze me? WOT? INSERT INTO post VALUES (excuse the pun) what does wot stand for? my brain is still mashed from weekend and i cant think about it...


Originally posted by calum

Do you have a spark? If it is nearly working Ok then putting one of the plugs in it's lead and just resting it on the edge of the hole INSERT INTO post VALUES (don't hold it unless you're well insulated!) should give you little explosions.



yup there is a spark.. or atleast there is on the front bank.. we did what you just mentioned and confirmed sparkage on all plugs on front bank.


Originally posted by calum

Are you sure you've got the plug leads on in the correct order?


theres really only one way they can go on, the cables are pretty tight as they are.. dont think you can get them the wrong way around...


finally.
1) Ignition timing WAY too far advanced.
At this minute in time i have no documentation to point me in tghe right wya
2) Valves knackered INSERT INTO post VALUES (bent and not sealing)
im hoping this isnt the case, however i have been looking for engines.
3) Fuel injection at wrong time. Squirting fuel when the valves are shut - can be due to wrong cam timing.
again.. no realy documentation, however this should hopefully have changed by tomorrow.. wink wink

[BraindG]

Originally posted by calum

I would go for a compression test if I were you.


ive done this, and came back possitive.. however im going to run through it again...

[colVR4]

WOT - Wide Open Throttle :D

Is there any other way???

[BraindG]

aha! cunning plan :D
will do that after checking the pressure INSERT INTO post VALUES (again)

[calum]

ecu's nowadays have a program that when cranking and the throttle position sensor INSERT INTO post VALUES (TPS) sees wide open throttle INSERT INTO post VALUES (WOT) it stops squirting fuel.

If your compression test was OK then it's unlikely to be bent valves, although it could still be cam timing.

Was teh cam belt off when you got it back? Have you compared it to Zedy's? Generally, engines have to be at TDC INSERT INTO post VALUES (top dead centre - piston as high as it can go) on the compression stroke to time the cams using the marks. Did you do this?

You know it's the compression stroke because if you've got all the plugs out, stick something over cylinder 1 plug hole and wind the engine INSERT INTO post VALUES (with a spanner or ratchet on the crankshaft bolt) until you find the compression stroke. You should be able to keep winding until you can see the piston at TDC. Move the crank a little too far and piston will start going back down.

Calum

[zedy1]

the crank pully has a timing mark on it, but this has to turn twice before it line the top cams cus its a smaller pully and would u know which cylinder is no 1 on the vr4 on normal four cylinder its the first one next to the pullys.

[BraindG]

all the belts were off when we got it back...
however, when the guy came to do the timing, he didnt have a proper diagram of how it should be aligned.. so we looked at all the mitsy pics.. found one which was the exact same as the vr4.. and said sod it.. lets go for that...

i wasnt able to get a hold of a proper layout diagram in time..
but i should have it tomorrow..

as for comparing it to mo's.. nope didnt do that.. didnt even cross my mind actually.. pretty obvious if you think about it.. never mind /slaps forehead...


ok excuse my ignorance in the following..
one the wheel we were winding there is a line.. and attached to the engine is a little "block" on which are several lines.. |....|....| the numbers on which i cant recall.. however.. when lined up with the first line.. INSERT INTO post VALUES (one closest to the front of the car - and lowest number) all the cam wheels were lined up ok..

but im not sure wtf all the other lines represent.. and why they are there.. i would have expected there to be one line.. one mark to set up the timing..


something over cylinder 1 plug hole and wind the engine
over or in?

excuse spelling laptop keyboard sucks

[zedy1]

i know what he means its in plug number 1 so u could tell if the pistons up or down

[Nick Mann]

I have only really played with one engines timing belt, and the |....|....| marks on the crank shaft pulley were for the timing. The TDC mark was slightly before this. INSERT INTO post VALUES (Or maybe after, I can't remember.) is it therefore possible that you have lined up the TDC position on the cams with an incorrect reference point which is not far from the actual TDC point on the crank? You would then be 1-2 teeth out on the crank, which would give you much of the problems you are experiencing.

Keeping my fingers crossed that I am talking sense!

Come on Calum, what do you think of that?

[zedy1]

me thinks i figured out which one is piston number 1, as u guys know i have a 6a13 block sat at home, i took my 22mm socket and rachet out and on the tdc mark the piston next to the crank pulley on the back bank is no1. we have 2 pistons up and four down :D

[calum]

Sorry - don't check this when I'm at work.

I don't know which one cylinder '1' is, and my wife's at the gym with the car so can't look just now. Are the spark plug leads not numbered?

There will be a mark on the crankshaft pulley.

The marks on the block will look something like this: |''''|''''|''''|

These are for setting the ignition timing, but are also useful when doing the cam belt.

One of the lines will have a '0' or 'TDC' next to it. This is the one to use. You don't have to worry about the others just now - they're for setting the ignition timing. I'd check the cam timing first.

If you take all the plugs out, and then either just put the plug in number one cylinder by a thread or two, or use a valve grinding tool to stick down the recess INSERT INTO post VALUES (the rubber bit should 'cover' the threaded hole for the plug); you should be able to hear air squeezing out INSERT INTO post VALUES (and maybe feel some resistance) when cylinder one is on the compression stroke.

Worth checking that you're winding it the right way!

Once you know it's on the compression stroke you can stick something actually in the plug hole to rest on top of the piston INSERT INTO post VALUES (like a long screwdriver - it needs to stick out teh top of the engine - you DO NOT want it to fall in through teh spark plug hole!) - that will let you see when you're achieving TDC - although you should find your crank pulley mark lines up with the '0' or 'TDC' mark at the same time.

Then you should be able to see if your cam gears are lining up with the corresponding marks on the head. If they're not, then it should be relatively obvious.

As Zedy has spotted INSERT INTO post VALUES (and because it's a four stroke engine) the crank needs to go round twice for each one rotation of the camshafts. This is because the inlet valves only open every twice that the piston comes up.

Aside:

1) The piston moves down as inlet valves open. Air and fuel sucked in.
2) The valves close. The piston comes back up squeezing the mixture.
3) The spark plug lights the mixture - the piston gets forced down.
4) The exhaust valves open. Exhaust gases are forced out by piston coming up.

So piston goes up, down, up down, INSERT INTO post VALUES (two revs of crank) for each combustion cycle.

Don't know what the fuel injection is triggered off on these cars, but I would have thought there's a position sensor on the crank or summat. If it's triggered off the camshafts then that confuses me as to why fuel may be hitting closed valves. Best not to think about that just now I reckon. Anyway - sounds like you've got something to check!

I'm thinking that it may well be one or two teeth out, or even 180 degrees out INSERT INTO post VALUES (one rev of crank).

Hoping to help

Calum

[zedy1]

barry try disconecting the electronic choke system the bigger plug at the bottom of manifold

[BraindG]

the black thingy beside the thingy me bob yeah? ill check that mo.. thanks :D

Calum.. fantastic info... if, your assitance here helps.. im driving up.. kissing your forehead and driving home :D ill have to check this on thursday.. will update then..

cheers calum!