What next?

[colVR4]

I need some help in coming up with the next performance modification for the car. I have had the following done so far:

K&N Style air induction kit (cone)
Replacement stainless steel recirc dump valve
Apexi S-AFC fuel computer
Greddy Profec B-Spec II EBC
BDA Decat
2.5" Cat-Back Stainless Steel Twin-Exit exhaust

I have also fitted the BREMBO 4-pot calipers to the front and have got ENKEI 17" alloys all round.

Have I come to the limits of what can be done before I have to start spending a lot more dough? The car is running really well at the moment and I don't want to start messing with it too much as I don't want it to break. Plus, I don't want to increase my insurance too much either. I am running 0.9 bar of boost and the car seems to cope really well with that.

My own thoughts are:
ATF Cooler
Lowering Springs and dampers
Oil Catch Can
Better air-feed

What do you serious mod-heads think I should do next? :afro:

[WildCards]

My own thoughts are:
ATF Cooler
Lowering Springs and dampers
Oil Catch Can
Better air-feed

I'd probably do them in the order you've listed Col, safety first, the ATF cooler is going to help your gearbox, especially running more power.

[Nick Mann]

The obvious thing you haven't listed is an intercooler.

But for longevity, I would say go for an ATF cooler as well!

I can't think of much more that is not big expenditure.

[colVR4]

Have been thinking about the intercooler. I have been looking at how much of the intercooler is actually exposed to the air stream and it isn't a lot. I am going to try and make the stock one more efficient first before I embark on a bigger one. I remember the issues that BDA had with his uprated one losing him power at the top end.

I think the ATF cooler is definately my next step, the garage that fitted the exhaust also fit ATF coolers so I may pop in and see them.

[Wodjno]

Have been thinking about the intercooler. I have been looking at how much of the intercooler is actually exposed to the air stream and it isn't a lot. I am going to try and make the stock one more efficient first before I embark on a bigger one. I remember the issues that BDA had with his uprated one losing him power at the top end.

I think the ATF cooler is definately my next step, the garage that fitted the exhaust also fit ATF coolers so I may pop in and see them.

It's not totally about what is in the direct airstream.. You find that if you tested te airflow through the standard intercooler, that the air is flowing through all the fins equally. Reason being that the air will find it's way through via direction of least resistance and at extreme speeds it will be working as efficiently as it possibly can. Also the heat of the air flowing through the intercooler is also dissipated by heat sync, so even though the outer edges are not directly in the are flow, it will still be cooling.

[Spirit]

I would agree with the intercooler or the lowered suspension - particularly if you plan to track the car.......and if not, why not /Grrr /lol

[colVR4]

The ATF cooler and lowering kit are for future tracking experiences :D

Would be rude not too!!!

[colVR4]

On the subjects of intercoolers..

What's an intercooler and how does it help?
To answer that question, a discussion of thermodynamics is involved. Turbos, as has been mentioned, compress an engine's intake air. By laws of physics, compressing air also heats it. For an engine, heating the intake air is a bad thing. For one, it raises the combustion chamber temperature and thus increases the chance of detonation (uncontrolled combustion which damages your engine). Another bad thing is that air expands as it is heated. So in other words, it will lose some of the compression effect and the turbo must work harder to maintain the desired level of compression.

Thus enters the intercooler into the equation. An intercooler is a heat exchanger--sort of like a small radiator except that it cools the charge (your intake air) rather than the engine coolant. Now that the charge is being cooled, two benefits appear: combustion temperatures decrease (along with the detonation), and the charge becomes denser which allows even more air to be packed into the combustion chamber. Exactly how much heat is removed varies greatly; some factors include the type of intercooler used, its efficiency, and its mounting location. From what I've seen, getting your intake charge temperature within 20 degrees of ambient is excellent; consider this a practical limit for a street-driven car (meaning you might get closer but not without spending tons of money).

There are two types of intercoolers: air-to-air and air-to-water. Air-to-air means that as the charge passes through the intercooler, the intercooler itself is cooled by air flowing through its fins. Picture your car's radiator but substitute the intake air where the coolant goes and you'll have a rough idea of how it works. In an air-to-water intercooler, the intercooler is cooled by a liquid rather than air; this liquid has its own radiator placed where it can receive airflow, hoses connect this radiator to the intercooler itself, and the liquid must be circulated throughout the entire system.

Each type of intercooler has its strength and weakness. Air-to-air units tend to require longer ducting to route the air from the turbo through the intercooler then back to the engine; this extra tubing might increase lag slightly on some engines and may also present interesting packaging challenges. Air-to-water units, however, can have significantly shorter intake plumbing; the intercooler can be placed in hot underhood areas where no airflow is present since the liquid coolant circulates to its radiator. This allows for simpler installation but at an expense of reduced cooling efficiency. Note that both kinds cool better when air is flowing through the intercooler (air-to-air) or the radiator (air-to-water); both kinds can benefit from the installation of a fan for low-speed operation.

Which type is better? Depends on your goal. From where I sit it seems that air-to-water intercoolers are used either for convenience--to eliminate the possible ducting nightmare of the intake--or for drag-only vehicles where a "one shot" setup uses ice to actually drop charge air temps below ambient... for a very short while. I think it is telling that a number of street cars which featured air-to-water intercoolers from the factory are almost always converted to air-to-air units when upping performance is the goal. Check out an issue of any modded car magazine; you'll see these cars with huge air-to-air units mounted below the front bumber (or else behind the grill and in front of the radiator). There's a message here somewhere....

[colVR4]

Can I make my air-to-air intercooler more effective?
Certainly! What can be done? For starters, maximize airflow through the intercooler. This means remove anything between the incoming air and the intercooler's fins--the A/C condenser, funky ducting, or anything else that actually impedes airflow. If your intercooler isn't directly in the path of air, relocate it so that it is. If you are unable to move it around, create some sort of shroud/airdam to redirect air through the intercooler (tin or plastic should be great for this).

Another idea for you creative types is to make a mister. Get a windshield fluid reservoir, mount it where it will stay cool, and fill it with water. Now run the output tube to the intercooler. Mount a few spray nozzles aimed at the front of the intercooler's core, then join them to the output line with tees and such. Rig up this reservoir pump to a switch or button inside the car so that you can momentarily enable it when desired. The water evaporation will help draw even more heat off the intercooler, further lowering the temperature of the intake air that flows through it. You can get really fancy here; I had a friend that rigged the on/off switch to the throttle body so that the mister would activate at WOT. You can decide how to do it, but this is a neat little trick for just a few bucks.

[bradc]

Good ideas there, especially the ATF cooler, your other option is a manual conversion :)

[Kieran]

A few thoughts, and a handy link on Intercoolerage here:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=209025&postcount=35

[Kieran]

Also.... What are you wanting the catch can to achieve? Tread carefully as the PCV system is important on these cars for keeping the heads sludge-free. Eliminating oil mist in the intakes is a good thing, but make sure you don't eliminate a source of fresh, filtered and metered air by doing so.

The 6A13TT PCV system is like that of the GTO's 6G72TT. There's more detail regarding that here - don't dwell on the Krankvent stuff too much:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-krankvents.htm

There's some discussion here on 3si too.... Have a search before you commit. Personally, I think you need to keep the system 'as is' and use catch tanks as an oil trap/baffle, rather than just a 'vent to can' affair, if you follow me.

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=293356

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=280987

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=230802

[Kenneth]

In SGHOM style... balls!

There is nothing wrong with a 600x300 cheapo intercooler

Dave had other issues, I believe the intercooler was just one more building block in a bigger issue. If you recall, there were lots of issues with fueling.

I had a cheap 600x300x76 intercooler on my car and experianced NO loss of power at ANY RPM/Power level. I gained a little, though nothing excessive...


Even the cheap ones have a pressure drop of only around 0.1-0.3PSI at 15PSI. If you were going to go much above 15PSI then you might want to start thinking about paying more for a intercooler with less pressure drop. If not, I wouldn't worry about it.

[colVR4]

Kieran, the oil catch can would not be stopping the recirculating air but, as you say, simply collecting any excess oil. I am looking at a couple of designs that are on e-bay at the moment with this in mind.

I am still looking at increasing the efficiency of the standard intercooler before I go down the route of an larger one. A simple water-cooling system should be easy to set up and getter better air flow should be relatively straight-forward with some minor modifications to the front spoiler.

Not going down the manual route as I love the auto box too much. I am not going to be tracking enough to warrant the expense and hard work of making the swap.

All good advice and suggestions though, thanks guys

[Wodjno]

Kieran, the oil catch can would not be stopping the recirculating air but, as you say, simply collecting any excess oil. I am looking at a couple of designs that are on e-bay at the moment with this in mind.

I am still looking at increasing the efficiency of the standard intercooler before I go down the route of an larger one. A simple water-cooling system should be easy to set up and getter better air flow should be relatively straight-forward with some minor modifications to the front spoiler.

Not going down the manual route as I love the auto box too much. I am not going to be tracking enough to warrant the expense and hard work of making the swap.

All good advice and suggestions though, thanks guys

With the time and effort you are going to be putting in to make the OE intercooler more efficient :thinking: It would be cheaper and less time consuming to just fit a larger cooler :happy:

Why not try a Stock EVO Intercooler.. ??

[colVR4]

I thought there were some issues with a larger intercooler fitting behind the facelift bumper? Will the stock EVO intercooler be a direct replacement for the standard one and what are the benefits in terms of increased capacity?

[Nick Mann]

My car has a relatively small ARC intercooler. Several years ago, when talking to PJ about some of his modifications, he suggested that if he started from scratch again, the one thing he would transfer from his VR4 would be the ARC intercooler. PJ was always guarded about making recomendations and I don't know what his reasoning for the statement was, but I find it interesting none the less.

[Wodjno]

I had issues with mine at the start ?? But i'm not sure wheter it was the ECU trying to workout the differences ? Or the fact that i had also just fitted an E-Manage Ultimate and Profec E-01 all at teh same time and hadn't got them all set up correctly..(This showed at the WRC RRD)/help

To be honest, at this time of year, your not going to see any conceivable difference by fitting a larger intercooler or even modding the 1 you got... The lowered air temp in the winter months is more than enough to give you an increase in power.. (Get out there with the GTech now, if you want Sub 5's :scholar: )
How are you going to monitor the difference in your mods to your O/E cooler ? Unless you are monitoring inlet and outlet temps of the cooler your not going to know if it's done any good ! And as i say at this time of year the diferences are going to be inearly inconceivable !

The Stock EVO Cooler is not quite as large as a 600x300x100 cooler. And as for fitting behind a Facelift bumper, i couldn't be sure ! But you going to modding the bumper for better airflow on the stock 1 anyway, so i'm sure a bit of cutting will give it enough room.. Hang on ! BDA's is Facelift ! And he fitted a 600x300x100 FMIC. So shouldn't be an issue..:thinking:

As for benefits ! In the summer months with the stock cooler and after a good old ragging ! My stock cooler was rathe hot on the inlet side and still quite hot on the exit side.. With the 600x300x100 fitted the difference is quite amazing. Inlet side is hot while outlet is completely cold :happy:

At the end of the day, the choice is yours :5shots:

[pezza]

...

The Stock EVO Cooler is not quite as large as a 600x300x100 cooler. And as for fitting behind a Facelift bumper, i couldn't be sure ! But you going to modding the bumper for better airflow on the stock 1 anyway, so i'm sure a bit of cutting will give it enough room.. Hang on ! BDA's is Facelift ! And he fitted a 600x300x100 FMIC. So shouldn't be an issue..:thinking:



Yep it fits fine without ANY modifications to bumper or bumper bar etc. :scholar:

And I felt benefits over the stock intercooler having changed over half way through
the summer... I cannot remember the exact dimensions of the stock Evo 7 cooler I have but it is aprox 1.5 times higher than the stock VR4 unit. Connecting inlet and outlet pipes will be fin on a post facelift but proved a &^%$# on pre facelift.

Seeing your list of mods there I agree with all thats on there, handling package def worth it but if you lower the car, you may need to watch out for tyre size (if you dont fancy rolling arches), I am back on 225s but it is possible I could have problems with 8 inch rims.

Catch can worth it too IMO. WHen I changed my intercooler, the residue in the pipes and esp in DV was a bit excessive (although I was expecting some)

ATF cooler probably a good idea as you seem to be getting the track bug..and after my recent clutch coloured ATF change, I would say its worth fitting...

As for air feed, well, I had a lil play with changing mine, but reverted to standard which seems to be fine for me. I cant comment on cold air box setup worth a try I think. Or maybe experiment with geting more air into current airbox. As you have SAFC you should be able to resolve boost/fuel cut issues if they start to creep in, esp at this time of year....

Good luck Col... would be interesting to see how much of a change these mods will make...

[colVR4]

I have had no hint of fuel cut even in the -3 temps this morning. I am running it quite lean at hi throttle on low revs to reduce this and it seems to be working fine.

The nice thing about the S-AFC is that you have a setting for lo and hi throttle positions, so I can set it rich enough at low throttle/low revs but make it leaner at hi throttle/low revs to reduce the fuel cut. I am still making sure that it all stays within safe levels though.

I am concerned about the wheel and tyre combination if I lower the car, as well as the risk of grounding out the exhaust on speed bumps so I may look in to getting some stiffer springs and dampers without lowering it too much. Not sure what are avaiable for our cars though... anyone got any details?

[Nutter_John]

Col I have been looking into this and if you find a thread I started a while ago regarding coilovers for the Saloon( best model to have) . I would also have the same issue as we both have evo wheels , but having driven the car very hard on track the suspension does need doing badly and I would take the risk of a little scrub for the sake of a lot more control in corner (instaed of a rolling car )

[pezza]

..


The nice thing about the S-AFC is that you have a setting for lo and hi throttle positions, so I can set it rich enough at low throttle/low revs but make it leaner at hi throttle/low revs to reduce the fuel cut. I am still making sure that it all stays within safe levels though.



Yup the S-AFC can help with those power cuts which can change once you start
changing induction. I have had to change map slightly on e-manage and max boost setting as of a couple of weeks ago.

WRT suspension, HA coilovers could be a solution maybe.. wind down front to desired height and minimise drop on rears as much as possible. I have not come across springs for VR that maintain current rear height but stiffen up the ride hence the ref to HA coilovers.

Anti roll/swap bars could also help with roll here. K has these on the leggie I IIRC.

I have not changed any suspension components yet but I have gone back down to 225s, this has helped when loading up the leggie

[bradc]

I've got a 600x300x100mm intercooler on mine and it is fine as well. It does push up against the bumper a bit though, and slightly distorts it.