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View Full Version : Manual Gear Box VR-4 Owners - Do you feel the gearing is too short?



bradc
11-01-2007, 06:37 AM
Who here with manual gearboxes feels that the gears are too short? I was thinking that if we could get enough people together we could change the final drive gear that goes from the transmission to the transfer box.

The current setup is below with the autobox first, then the manual. Both with their stock final drives. Then we have a manual gearbox with an auto's final drive, and lastly the evo 8 6 speed gearbox with the auto's final drive.

I think that the Manual gear spacing is ok, it just needs a slightly longer final drive and I think that 3.684 is about right. Now we know that the auto box's final drive gear will not fit into a manual box, so we need to get some custom gears made up.

Who's keen?

Axeboy
11-01-2007, 10:32 AM
I agree, it is quite short for a car with so much torque.

Nick Mann
11-01-2007, 10:37 AM
I would be interested, cost dependant.

Nutter_John
11-01-2007, 10:52 AM
Tell me where to send the money :D

stuey
11-01-2007, 12:33 PM
manual could definately do with a 6th gear... Replacing final drive would do it, as said torque is there for existing gearing. May be interested

valmes
11-01-2007, 04:45 PM
It's short... :(

bradc
11-01-2007, 06:55 PM
Sounds like I've got 5 confirmed orders :)

Now, what gearing do we want? Looking at the table there would the 3.684 final drive ratio make everyone happy? Or would people want other values?

Nutter_John
11-01-2007, 07:32 PM
3.684 looks about right to me , don't want to make it too long

Kenneth
11-01-2007, 09:44 PM
depending on cost (of course) I would also be keen :)

Nick Mann
11-01-2007, 10:19 PM
I would like it slightly longer if poss. Not too much, maybe closer to 3.5. Any chance of a speed chart in MPH comparing it all? I have tried, but my formula must be slightly wrong, as the top speed in each gear seems slightly too high!

Kenneth
11-01-2007, 10:21 PM
I would like it slightly longer if poss. Not too much, maybe closer to 3.5. Any chance of a speed chart in MPH comparing it all? I have tried, but my formula must be slightly wrong, as the top speed in each gear seems slightly too high!

you divide KPH by 1.6 to get MPH

Nick Mann
11-01-2007, 10:24 PM
See? They seem just too high? Or maybe I am not allowing for the fact that I tend to change at 6700 rather than 7000? What do you manual boys think? Are your ratios about right or do they seem high as well?

Nutter_John
11-01-2007, 10:24 PM
All at 7000 rpm on standard drive with 235/45/17


3.8640

3.3330 41.0699
2.1050 65.0290
1.4070 97.2893
1.0310 132.7702
0.7610 179.8765

3.5
3.3330 45.3412
2.1050 71.7920
1.4070 107.4074
1.0310 146.5783
0.7610 198.5837

3.333
3.3330 47.6130
2.1050 75.3892
1.4070 112.7890
1.0310 153.9226
0.7610 208.5337

Nick Mann
11-01-2007, 10:30 PM
Ahh.... Okay. My calculation is good - my numbers are in fact slightly lower than Brads, which I guess is because I used a 225/45/17 tyre not a 235.

I would prefer the gearing to be slightly longer than the standard auto box, which I think is still a bit short, so I will stick with my request of closer to 3.5 for the final drive ratio. (Still cost dependant!)

Nutter_John
11-01-2007, 10:33 PM
3.5 final Drive would be very good , enuf to do full 0-60 in only 1st and 2nd without slamming into redline

Come on Brad get it sorted with some prices :D

EdmundVR4
11-01-2007, 10:42 PM
I've noticed that on manual & automatic transmission versions of the same model cars that the auto model always revs lower at the same speed.
Might there be a reason for this ?
On another note, when I converted my 7G VR4 to GTO engine, gearbox & transfercase, I screwed up the VCU because I was using a 3.9 rear diff instead of a 3.545. I have since fixed the VCU and replace
d the rear diff to a 3.309,then to 3.545 upon learning 3.545 is the correct ratio. All is well now, but I learnt the hard way that the front, middle & rear gear ratios have to match each other. (don't know if the same applies to the 8G scenario described above)
I would also be interested in the 3.684 final drive.

As an aside, the 6th gear (.59 ratio)in my 7G is no good for quick overtaking under 125km/h, I almost always downshift unless I'm feeling lazy or there is quite a bit of space. (Three overdrive gears, 4th 0.918, 5th 0.733, 6th 0.589)
Enough rambling.

Nick Mann
11-01-2007, 11:13 PM
The only point there that I can reply to is the frot/rear ratios. These will stay the same, as the final drive is in the gearbox housing, between the lay shaft and output shaft. Thus changing the final drive will not affect the ratios after the gearbox, as they all split off the output shaft.

Also, the speedo should remain calibrated, as all it is doing is reading the speed of the output shaft.

It sounds like your 7g has MUCH longer gearing than the 8g. What is your speed per 1000 revs in 4th/5th/6th? And what is your 6spd box from?

EdmundVR4
11-01-2007, 11:56 PM
^^^ 4th, 5th & 6th are overdrive gears as you can see. Good for the Autobahn
R&P 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Gear
4.15 3.27 1.90 1.24 0.92 0.73 0.59 Gear Ratio
RPM MPH MPH MPH MPH MPH MPH
2000 11 19 29 39 49 61
2500 14 23 36 49 61 76
3000 16 28 43 58 73 91
3500 19 33 50 68 85 106
4000 22 37 57 78 97 121
4500 25 42 65 87 109 136
5000 27 47 72 97 122 151
5500 30 51 79 107 134 166
6000 33 56 86 116 146 182
6500 35 61 93 126 158 197
7000 38 66 101 136 170 212
8000 44 75 115 155 194 242

bradc
12-01-2007, 09:16 AM
I don't Trinidad and Tobago has an Autobahn hehe.

Nick, as you said the final drive gear is in the gearbox. Is there any chance that someone with Caps could find the correct part codes for the actual gear itself, as well as the other gears either side of it, plus put up a picture?

I need to be able to see how it all goes together so we can work out which gears need to be changed. I doubt it would be possible to just change one because that would create meshing problems etc, so we might need to do something like increase one cog by one tooth, and decrease the other by one tooth as well. If that doesn't change it enough, then we can go for 2 teeth on each cog.

Nick Mann
12-01-2007, 10:45 AM
Don't forget that the angle (helix?) of the teeth can change too. I don't know enough about gears to say anything for sure, but I think this could allow for more options than just increasing/decreasing the number of teeth on each? I think the design will be the expensive part of this exercise, rather than the manufacturing.

bradc
12-01-2007, 11:15 AM
no idea about that sort of thing, as long as the gears can handle the power :)

mpau009
13-01-2007, 05:48 AM
Yes quite a bit too short

whats a rough idea on how much this would cost.. and the amount of hassle it would be to get up and running?

Iv got pretty poor understanding on how the whole 4wd thing works, but if its not too hard to recitify the low gearing id be keen.

are we talking a couple of hundred bucks? or closer to 4 digits?

I'll certainly be interested to see how it works out

bradc
13-01-2007, 06:34 AM
I would imagine that for the two or three gears needed it won't cost too much, the killer will be dismantling the engine bay and reassembling it.

Nick Mann
13-01-2007, 12:21 PM
Just two gears. One on the end of the lay shaft, one on the end of the output shaft. The output shaft gear is held by 10 bolts, IIRC and is simply undo the bolts, swap, and re-bolt. I'm not so sure about the lay shaft gear, it could be easy, but it may need pressing off.

I have no idea of cost of the gears, but it will cost 3 figures to fit it if you pay someone else. I will try and fit it myself, assuming I can afford the gears in the first place.

Nutter_John
13-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Seeing that WRD do Gearbox repairs maybe this is something they can look at , problem being I only have one gearbox and for some reason I need that .

May PM Mo and see if he has any knackered or not to try and get a price on the parts etc

Nick Mann
13-01-2007, 01:43 PM
John, I have a gear box sitting on the garage floor. If we need to check the procedure, we can always do it on that? If so, it should be a job that can be done within a weekend.

bradc
13-01-2007, 10:55 PM
Nick, seeing as you have a manual gearbox that isn't in your car, do you think you could get those 2 gears out, and get all of the details up here so we can figure out how many teeth we want to add or remove from each one?

Nick Mann
14-01-2007, 02:00 AM
Brad - I can do, but the problem is not that simple. If you just add one tooth to one gear and take one away from the other they will no longer mesh. Simple maths will tell you that. You will need to change the angle of the teeth or the size of the teeth as well. All the engineering company will need to know is the width of the gears, the distance between the two center points, the mounting method and the ratio. I can't tell them any of that accurately.

bradc
14-01-2007, 02:18 AM
right, gotcha. Do you think you could remove the two gears and take them to an engineering shop? We can figure out the ratio we will get quite easily by changing the number of teeth, so that won't be a problem.

The Vee
22-01-2007, 10:34 AM
I hate to be neg on this, but you will be affecting the whole gearing of the car, as I'm sure you're aware. Trouble is, you could end up losing acceleration and actually using more fuel, although in the latter case, the lower revs may compensate for this to a degree. The biggest problem would be the actual pulling away. As your individual gear ratios will stay the same, the overal effect of the longer diff will be higher overall ratio. So just try pulling away now (as standard) in second gear, especially if loaded and on a hill and that is the type of thing you may experiance. The clutch won't like it much either. Four wheel drive cars are always slighty shorter legged than 2 wheel equivelent to overcome the extra drag of the system. Auto's are indeed slightly longer legged, but of course the T/C allows slip at lower speed/gear so that engine reaches a higher rev to produce more power in that situation.
Just something to think about - hope it helps.

Now, if you were to considerably increase engine output first......................

Nick Mann
22-01-2007, 10:39 AM
I agree Andy, but we are not talking about huge changes here. Just a few MPH in first and second. And acceleration is relative. If you need one less gear change to reach your goal (One example being 60mph) then you could save far more than you lose. And how far is considerably? I have been measured at 350ish torque. :p

bradc
22-01-2007, 10:43 AM
Of course that is correct Andy, but if you hold onto each gear for that little bit longer then it will even out versus the drop in torque of changing to the next gear with the normal final drive. I don't think that me or Nick will have a problem with making enough power though :)

The Vee
22-01-2007, 10:54 AM
There's no doubt that the extra torque developed by the uprated engines you have will of course offset this somewhat, and yes, I hear what you say about one less gearchange to a given point. Just wanted to point out what pitfalls could occur as I did similar things by swapping diffs on rear wheel drive fords (yeah ok ole git I know!!)/pan

Nick Mann
22-01-2007, 02:17 PM
Yep, thanks Andy. All info is welcome! I did consider the longer ratio = fewer g's point of view but decided in first especially, and to a certain extent in second, it wouldn't matter much.

What did you change ratios by and with what power?

The Vee
22-01-2007, 06:24 PM
Yep, thanks Andy. All info is welcome! I did consider the longer ratio = fewer g's point of view but decided in first especially, and to a certain extent in second, it wouldn't matter much.

What did you change ratios by and with what power?

Hmmm long time ago, but the figures 3.9/1, 3.7/1 and 3.4/1 ring a bell somewhere along the way. Power wasn't huge, but various incarnations of Ford V4 and V6. I seem to remember the V6 being extremely versatile and made light work of most things. It was a 3.0lt essex variety with various mods, but just what the power was I have no idea now. ( don't think I knew then either/pan ) Yoof eh:thinking:

stuartturbo
22-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Brad - I can do, but the problem is not that simple. If you just add one tooth to one gear and take one away from the other they will no longer mesh. Simple maths will tell you that. You will need to change the angle of the teeth or the size of the teeth as well. All the engineering company will need to know is the width of the gears, the distance between the two center points, the mounting method and the ratio. I can't tell them any of that accurately.

I could measure them up if needed C.M.M at work at my disposal

bradc
23-01-2007, 04:49 AM
Stuart, could you get the gears made up too?

valmes
23-01-2007, 12:08 PM
Just for your attention... ;)

stuartturbo
23-01-2007, 06:33 PM
Stuart, could you get the gears made up too?
I could not do it my self but could try the places that we use through work

bradc
23-01-2007, 07:22 PM
So they were either pulling 7900rpm in that VR-4 to reach 303kmh, or they had a different final drive. Can you shed any light on that Valmes?

Stuart, would you have access to the two gears needed? If not could someone in the UK maybe organise a spare set to go to you?

valmes
24-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Brad, you should ask guys at PROS ENG... OWNER: T. Hashimoto (chief engineer)

I've no idea how that speed was achieved.

More on that car here:
http://www.diana.dti.ne.jp/~carplus/event/02tas/02tas.html

But going from this (alta vista translated page): http://www.diana.dti.ne.jp/~carplus/event/02tas/ec5a_spec/ec5a_spec.html ,

Transmission system Mission: 5MT (final modification) <------- Could it mean - "Modified Final Drive Ratio" ???

valmes
24-01-2007, 01:06 PM
Found in the following pages:

"Transmission system Mission: 5MT (final modification PROS) "

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f01sas%2f01sas.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02fas%2f02fas.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02sas%2f02sas.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2febisu%2febisu.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02ag%2f02ag.html

SPECS:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f01sas%2fec5w_spec%2fec5w_spec.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02fas%2fsuper_ec5w_spec%2fsuper_ec5w_s pec.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02sas%2fec5a_spec%2fec5a_spec.html

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f02ag%2fec5w_spec%2fec5w_spec.html

bradc
24-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Hmm noticed that this one http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fevent%2f01sas%2fec5w_spec%2fec5w_spec.html has an uprated torque converter, thats interesting for the auto guys.

I think that the final modification probably does mean final drive. I will see if I can get in contact with T Hasimoto :)

Thanks again Valmes

stuartturbo
24-01-2007, 08:59 PM
some nice stuff there
Torque converter (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://toyu-shi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/oyaji/reg/04index.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DPROS%2BVR-4%2BSPL%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26hs%3DvJ8)

valmes
23-02-2007, 01:34 PM
If our gearbox is the same as EVO4 (that's what I found earlier: W5M51 (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eonet.ne.jp%2F%7Emax-galant%2F09a_manuals%2F04z_manual_6.html&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)) than we can fit different gear sets made for EVO4?!?

http://www.bpmsports.com/products/gear.htm

bradc
23-02-2007, 07:17 PM
We could, but there wouldn't be much of a point really in changing to any that they list. Our stock ratios are:

3.333 1st
2.105 2nd
1.407 3rd
1.03 4th
0.761 5th


4.111 Final

If you compare that to the top DRAG spec out stock ratios are already very close to what they are offering, and the bottom EVO set is the same, but with a really short 5th gear, which is even less useful for us.

Having the first two gears changed to 3.000 and 2.000 could be useful though ;)

valmes
24-02-2007, 05:52 AM
Well, I just gave you one example... there are more gear sets from other companies like RalliArt, Shepard etc, just search around. The good thing is they are all stronger... and all of them also offer upgraded transfer cases, front and rear diffs.

That means we can get all the power we want, down to the wheels, without being stranded at some moment by some weak part in our tranny... since we have some offers from the EVO world! ;) /rally

bradc
24-02-2007, 07:17 AM
until you blow your AYC diff for the 4th time hehe.

Are you going to change to an LSD soon?

valmes
28-08-2007, 03:36 AM
No, I won't go LSD route until my AYC diff blows up again... even than I will try to get EVO8 SAYCs on (thanks Louis).

Btw, on www.sheptrans.com they offer 4.111 as an upgrade option (at $1100 price tag):


"For you stroker guys that have to keep the rpms down through the traps we now offer a 4.11 final drive option. Feal free to contact us by email with your tire size and max engine rpm and we can give you the exact mph per gear."


Makes you think... may be we can supply EVO owners with Final Drive Upgrades? :)

valmes
28-08-2007, 03:40 AM
And one more thought... the easiest final drive mod would be - just changing the tire size! :)

Kenneth
28-08-2007, 04:30 AM
And one more thought... the easiest final drive mod would be - just changing the tire size! :)

Thats true, but I think you would have some serious issues with clearance of the suspension arm (the vertical bent one)

You would need to run a very low offset if you wanted to avoid this, and this could cause other handling problems.

When I get my backside into gear and get the Galant drivable then ill let you know how it drives with the Evo gears :)

valmes
28-08-2007, 04:52 AM
Thats true, but I think you would have some serious issues with clearance of the suspension arm (the vertical bent one)

You would need to run a very low offset if you wanted to avoid this, and this could cause other handling problems.

When I get my backside into gear and get the Galant drivable then ill let you know how it drives with the Evo gears :)

Thanks Kenneth. ;)
Waiting for update!

PS: The widest tires on my car were 265/40/17 (102% from the original height...) ... clearance was minimal, but everything worked just fine! (I've got 20mm spacers on each wheel) no handling issues... at least in 4 years of ownership I didn't notice any.

Kenneth
28-08-2007, 05:47 AM
PS: The widest tires on my car were 265/40/17 (102% from the original height...) ... clearance was minimal, but everything worked just fine! (I've got 20mm spacers on each wheel) no handling issues... at least in 4 years of ownership I didn't notice any.

Thats a fairly minimal change in rolling radius though, so I wouldn't expect any clearance issues. (only 0.25mm more RR than 235/45 17s which are commonly used)

Do you know what the wheel offset was without the spacers? I am interested to know what total offset you have :) I put 255s on my old Legnum with a 35mm offset and it seemed to be fine (would have rubbed the guards without rolling though)

zentac
28-08-2007, 01:34 PM
Sorry, not got time to read 3 pages, but what about the V6 gear ratio's thats what Im running

1st = 3.583
2nd = 1.947
3rd = 1.379
4th = 1.030
5th = 0.767
Final = 3.722

I have approx the following top speeds in each gear.

1 gear = 37.739 MPH
2 gear = 69.450 MPH
3 gear = 98.056 MPH
4 gear = 131.280 MPH
5 gear = 176.296 MPH

Nick Mann
28-08-2007, 01:50 PM
Can you just put the V6 gears in the VR4 box? That would seem a bit too easy! Surely the design is slightly different to accommodate the 4WD system?

zentac
28-08-2007, 02:02 PM
I dont know without having a vr4 box to strip, but knowing mitsi probably. if you look at aCAPS the gears seem to be common across quite a few platforms, so it may be possible.

bradc
28-08-2007, 08:36 PM
Those gear ratios are the same as any Galant/Legnum 2wd/4wd Manual V6 2.5 N/A.

The VR-4 ratios aren't too different, they are 3.333, 2.105, 1.407, 1.031, 0.761. As you can see first is a bit shorter on Richards one, probably to help get the N/A engines off the line easier.

The reason his gears are longer is because of the 3.722 final drive that came with all of the 2wd v6 2.5's. Mitsi made the 4wd versions with a 4.055 final drive and the same gear ratios. In fact all Legnums were like this, with 1.8, 2.0, 2.4 and 2.5 engines, each engine had the same gear ratios, but the finals were different between the 2wd and 4wd variants.

What I don't know and can't find out is if the 3.722 final drive gear would be compatible with either a 4wd ST-R, or a VR-4.

Beastlee
14-09-2007, 08:34 PM
Reading this with much interest and would love to know the outcome of the investigatons.

I always found the Auto to run very high(over 3000rpm at 80mph) but looking at the manual this is even worse. I assume that the manual has that little stronger response at speed in gear or am I wrong?

I know my 9000 loves to cruise at 80mph and it's more like 2500rpm but then it has the most amazing torque curve you could ask for with a peak at 1800rpm!

bradc
14-09-2007, 09:35 PM
When the auto is at 2500rpm, about 70mph, the manual is already at 3000rpm. The combination of a 3.72 final drive and a 0.721 5th gear would take make the gears almost identical from the auto to the manual box.

Beastlee
14-09-2007, 09:58 PM
That's muh more acceptable. It's a good job I won't be paying much for my fuel if either way, I'l be cruising at 130kmh+ quite a lot ;)

valmes
10-11-2007, 07:53 AM
EVO7 GT-A:

Gear ratios
[Total reduction ratio]
1st 3.789 [12.633]
2nd 2.057 [ 6.860]
3rd 1.421 [ 4.737]
4th 1.000 [ 3.333]
5th 0.731 [ 2.437]
Rev 3.865 [12.886]
Final reduction ratio 3.333

valmes
10-11-2007, 07:58 AM
Thats a fairly minimal change in rolling radius though, so I wouldn't expect any clearance issues. (only 0.25mm more RR than 235/45 17s which are commonly used)

Do you know what the wheel offset was without the spacers? I am interested to know what total offset you have :) I put 255s on my old Legnum with a 35mm offset and it seemed to be fine (would have rubbed the guards without rolling though)

The wheels model is in the sig... and they are 8JJ
Don't know what's offset on those :inquisiti

bradc
10-11-2007, 08:14 AM
Valmes - the GT-A gearbox is obviously quite similar to the VR-4 auto box. :)

Louis
10-11-2007, 02:32 PM
I apologise as I have only scanned through the posts and not read the full thread, but below is a link I posted a while ago somewhere else.

Try this link, I have used them before, and they have a good range,cheers Louis

www.stationgaragearnside.co.uk



MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO 4-9 DOGBOX RATIOS
Group N-I hom.
1st 2.75
2nd 1.95
3rd 1.444
4th 1.096
5th 0.825
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.529

Group N-II hom
1st 3
2nd 2
3rd 1.47
4th 1.111
5th 0.857
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.307

Hom. Nr. A-5629
1st 2.785
2nd 1.95
3rd 1.407
4th 1.031
5th 0.721
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.529

Clubman Group A
1st 3
2nd 2
3rd 1.47
4th 1.111
5th 0.85
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.666

Racing car
1st 2.769
2nd 1.928
3rd 1.411
4th 1.043
5th 0.75
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.133

Rallycross 1
1st 2.785
2nd 1.95
3rd 1.619
4th 1.364
5th 1.096
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.307

Rallycross 2
1st 3
2nd 2
3rd 1.611
4th 1.25
5th 1.043
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.307


Rallycross 3
1st 3
2nd 2
3rd 1.611
4th 1.2
5th 1.043
R 3.416
Final Drive 4.307

naughtika
10-11-2007, 05:30 PM
I would be interested, cost dependant.

Same here


manual could definately do with a 6th gear... Replacing final drive would do it, as said torque is there for existing gearing. May be interested

I'd agree with the 6th gear.. i dont know much about gearing, final drive and etc.. doesn't some cars' 2nd gear go up to 110km/h?!

I'd like to see how this project would go..

Nick Mann
10-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Changing the final drive changes every gear in the box by a certain percentage. Changing individual gear ratios only changes that particular gear.

valmes - the GTA is an auto, isn't it? With the same ratios as the VR4? The slightly longer final drive may be interesting for auto owners who want lower revs in each gear, though.

bradc
10-11-2007, 08:46 PM
yes but Nick, I don't think that girls need to go that fast. Men with manual's do however :)

Louis - there are a few sites out there with similar listings of ratios, they never have anything higher than the 0.721 5th gear which was standard in some EVO 7's and 8's.

The stock car does 110kmh at 2875rpm, the 0.721 gear will make it only 2720rpm, and the 0.721 gear + 3.73 final will be 2464rpm. I would be perfectly happy with that myself :)

ianturbo
10-11-2007, 08:52 PM
Hmmm long time ago, but the figures 3.9/1, 3.7/1 and 3.4/1 ring a bell somewhere along the way. Power wasn't huge, but various incarnations of Ford V4 and V6. I seem to remember the V6 being extremely versatile and made light work of most things. It was a 3.0lt essex variety with various mods, but just what the power was I have no idea now. ( don't think I knew then either/pan ) Yoof eh:thinking:
ford had a 3.09 final drive even if you had 4 or 5 speed boxes !! i have one so i know !!:scholar:
ian

ianturbo
10-11-2007, 08:53 PM
is this a silly question but would the 6 speed off a gto not fit ????
ian

ANTHONY
10-11-2007, 09:08 PM
i think the GTO box is on the other side of the engine

Louis
10-11-2007, 09:44 PM
Louis - there are a few sites out there with similar listings of ratios, they never have anything higher than the 0.721 5th gear which was standard in some EVO 7's and 8's.

Yes, definitely, but what I thought was interesting was they do Dogbox sets (straight cut) gears, and clubman rally and rally boxes and gearsets.

Oblivion
11-11-2007, 09:47 AM
I like the ratio's how they are, they seem to fit the power band of the engine quite well. I do feel it needs a 6th gear for when the speed gets up though, could an 6 speed evo gear set work?

bradc
11-11-2007, 10:02 AM
Not easily, if you had $10k to throw at it though it would be possible

Oblivion
11-11-2007, 10:09 AM
Bummer :( So no easy option of chasing higher top speeds then?

Nick Mann
11-11-2007, 12:37 PM
There is an easy option earlier in this thread - a longer final drive ratio. But it is not cheap!!

Gowf
12-11-2007, 12:22 PM
Louis - there are a few sites out there with similar listings of ratios, they never have anything higher than the 0.721 5th gear which was standard in some EVO 7's and 8's.

Yes, definitely, but what I thought was interesting was they do Dogbox sets (straight cut) gears, and clubman rally and rally boxes and gearsets.

Straight cut is a good idea... Thats what i am thinking of, as it is without a doubt the strongest type of gear kit. Idealy though, 1-4 straight cut with a helical 5th.... this way you avoid the horrendous whine when cruising on the motorway.

Dog engagement however, is all well and good if your going to use it, if you want to be left foot braking while changing gear.

I know its been said before, but i just want to clarify, the evo 4 box is the same but we have a different bell housing?

Have a look at this: http://www.part-box.com/Transmission_Information.pdf

Nick Mann
12-11-2007, 02:45 PM
Gareth - yes, AFAIK the Evo 5spd boxes have identical internals to the VR4's box. But none of the final drive options are longer - they are all shorter. The VR4's final drive is the longest normally available option.

Certainly, people on here have swapped evo gears in to a VR4 box, even different combos. I would say all that is available on that co-ord sport link is compatable with the VR4.

Gowf
12-11-2007, 04:20 PM
Gareth - yes, AFAIK the Evo 5spd boxes have identical internals to the VR4's box. But none of the final drive options are longer - they are all shorter. The VR4's final drive is the longest normally available option.

Certainly, people on here have swapped evo gears in to a VR4 box, even different combos. I would say all that is available on that co-ord sport link is compatable with the VR4.


Superb!!! all i now need is £80k for the xtrak 6 speed sequential!

bradc
12-11-2007, 07:23 PM
Gareth - my thoughts exactly :D

Gowf
12-11-2007, 07:51 PM
Gareth - my thoughts exactly :D


Well i can but dream! I need to find a friendly bank manager..... or a huge corporate sponsor......Go on ben you know you want to!

bradc
12-11-2007, 07:57 PM
hah lol. It should be possible to get an EVO 8/9 6 speed gearbox into the car. I looked into it a while ago, the evo transfer case and ACD system will need to go in as well to bolt up to the gearbox, and obviously a custom bellhouse will be needed as well.

I do think that for most people a change to the 3.73 final drive available from TRE is the best bet, it takes 2nd gear above 100kmh, you will never need to change out of 4th when going down the quarter mile, and 5th gear is usefully lower for cruising.

Gowf
12-11-2007, 10:19 PM
No thats what i was thinking, but then im also looking for straight cut 1st to 4th with helical 5th. even that though is going to cost a small fortune!

bradc
13-11-2007, 07:14 AM
http://www.teamrip.com/

Thats their website, they do lots of work with strengthened evo gearboxes, and they will sell you the final drive seperately.

Louis
14-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Expensive but interesting
http://www.apexperformance.co.uk/ppg/products.htm

Apex performance are selling gearsets from PPG Australia, so available UK and Aus.

Ryan
15-12-2007, 03:48 AM
http://www.teamrip.com/

Thats their website, they do lots of work with strengthened evo gearboxes, and they will sell you the final drive seperately.

Speaking of final drives, have you managed to source one for your purple beast yet?

bradc
15-12-2007, 06:21 AM
I will get one from teamrip, just need to get the money :)

Kenneth
23-10-2008, 12:33 AM
Thread revival.

Just to let everyone know that the Evo gearset we put into the Galant works very well.

Just to recap, the gear ratios (standard final drive) are as follows

2.928
1.950
1.407
1.031
0.721

vs stock

3.333
2.105
1.407
1.031
0.761

With the correct wheel and tyre combo (i.e. to correct the speedo) this allows 60mph/100kph in 2nd gear by 7000RPM.

The longer 1st makes a huge difference. It actually feels like it is doing some useful acceleration without just being a means to reach 2nd.

Longer 5th didn't seem to make a great deal of difference apart from a drop in acceleration ability, though I wasn't maxing out 4th before changing. Unless you find you often run out of RPM in 5th, I wouldn't be concerned with the longer 5th.

Obviously everyone has a different driving style, I like to keep RPM around 3000 anyway, so this gear set is pretty good for me.
This being the case, I am less inclined to be interested in a final drive swap as I don't like the idea of shifting the 3rd and 4th gear ratios from where I use them now (cruising at town speeds).

The only down side is that a bit of extra urgency in 2nd means that I keep getting to the speed limit (not exceeding of course) around 4000RPM and not feeling satisfied!
Oh, and I don't think the AYC diff likes 1st... ANY sort of launch automatically puts up 3 bars.

bradc
23-10-2008, 01:35 AM
Nahh what you have is:

2.928
1.950
1.407
1.031
0.721

The first set you posted with 2.785 is the one I have in my wardrobe, and the 3.333 is the stock VR-4 set

Kenneth
23-10-2008, 01:40 AM
Nahh what you have is:

2.928
1.950
1.407
1.031
0.721

The first set you posted with 2.785 is the one I have in my wardrobe, and the 3.333 is the stock VR-4 set

lol, copy and paste error! Fixed.

You are welcome to give your thoughts on the gearbox too... be interested to hear you thought on driving it.

OnBoost!
23-10-2008, 01:55 AM
Yeah i thought that when i took it on the motorway for the first time,sits at about 2000rpm at 80kms.

bradc
23-10-2008, 01:56 AM
The longer 1st and 2nd gears are basically perfect, 1st gear is still over really quickly, and it shifts into higher rpm in 3rd as well meaning that the first 3 gears are much better to drive with.

zentac
23-10-2008, 08:21 AM
whats the final drive ratio on the 2 boxes? I kept the same gear ratio's on mine but changed the final drive ratio to make them all that bit longer. Im now having a dog box designed with a very long 1st for drag racing but the optimum gear ratios changed depending on the amount of power you have. So whats optimum for my 500bhp FTO wouldnt be any good (well wouldnt be optimum) on a 700bhp FTO.

bradc
23-10-2008, 08:24 AM
Both are 4.111.

What ratios are you running exactly?

Nick Mann
23-10-2008, 08:50 AM
It should be possible to get an EVO 8/9 6 speed gearbox into the car. I looked into it a while ago, the evo transfer case and ACD system will need to go in as well to bolt up to the gearbox, and obviously a custom bellhouse will be needed as well.

Brad - I got some info on this last week that is potentially useful.

I have been told that the Airtrek Turbo has a transfer box without the ACD that mates to the 6 speed box. The guys I spoke to seemed to think that you could put that in to a VR4 relatively easily.

All we need now is someone with too much time and money on their hands to give it a go! :D :scholar:

bradc
23-10-2008, 09:07 AM
Interesting, would make sense because they have the same engine, but I thought they all had 4 speed auto's?

Nick Mann
23-10-2008, 09:10 AM
I have absolutely zero experience of Airtrek Turbos. (Except a spirited drive with one in close proximity a couple of years back!) The info above was given to me by a chap who works at Xtreme - formerly Ralliart UK. I can't vouch for the accuracy of his info, or for what he thinks counts as relatively easy, but I though it was well worth mentioning.