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View Full Version : What shall I do- Reliabilty and Power?



sanct
23-01-2007, 10:34 PM
I always said that I would keep my VR4 stock.
So that I ran a damn fine example of a damn fine car.
I still stand by that principle but as time has passed I have given her the occasional treat.
For obvious reasons she now sloshes around with amsoil and her front brakes stop her that much quicker with EBC Turbo grooves(n dimpled) disks and Red Stuff Pads.
I don't want to go mad on mods but its always nice to examine various routes of slightly more performance orientated bits n bobs.
The obvious(reliable) route for keeping her sweet would be induction and exhaust.
There seems to be conflicting views on the K&N panel filter suggesting that performance is increased through sacrificing filtration and that the ECU finds it difficult to produce noted performance benefits... is that so? Then a new exhaust maybe? Or maybe concentrate on a cold box intake/ induction..
HELP!!!!
Need some advice.. She needs to be reliable and I don't want to increase the engine wear greatly.
So opinions would be really appreciated including rough prices and retail sources/?

Mmmm wish list makes me happy.
Cheers all
:)

Axeboy
23-01-2007, 10:35 PM
I reckon:

ARC Box
Exhaust (Blitz or Similar)
Decat
Boost Controller (even a manual would be fine)

That shouldnt break the bank and give a huge difference.

Wodjno
23-01-2007, 10:45 PM
I reckon:

ARC Box
Exhaust (Blitz or Similar)
Decat
Boost Controller (even a manual would be fine)

That shouldnt break the bank and give a huge difference.

In this order

De-cat
Boost Controller

Thas it.. :scholar:

£100 if you go with a manual boost controller..

£200-£400 if you go wit an Electronic one..

Nothing to major :thinking:

The reason i haven't gone for Zorst or Airbox is ?

You still want reliability :thinking: So raise the Boost slightly (.85bar) and you won't have need for a new ZOrst.. The standard will be more than adequate..

And the Standard air box is the Mutz as well :pimp2:

Kenneth
23-01-2007, 10:47 PM
I would go exhaust first... then Intercooler.

The standard induction setup is good for over 180KW at the wheels (nearly 250HP) and this is also getting close to the turbo limits without major mods.

A boost controller will get you max power faster, but wont up it any on a good ehxaust and IC. I have the dyno charts to prove this.

So if you want value for money, Exhaust and IC are what I would do.

Axeboy
23-01-2007, 10:55 PM
Do ou have an idea how much you want to spend?

Wodjno
23-01-2007, 11:12 PM
I would go exhaust first... then Intercooler.

The standard induction setup is good for over 180KW at the wheels (nearly 250HP) and this is also getting close to the turbo limits without major mods.

A boost controller will get you max power faster, but wont up it any on a good ehxaust and IC. I have the dyno charts to prove this.

So if you want value for money, Exhaust and IC are what I would do.

Ken ... So your saying an Intercooler and Zorst will up power as much as Boost controller on it's own :inquisiti

Kenneth
23-01-2007, 11:40 PM
Ken ... So your saying an Intercooler and Zorst will up power as much as Boost controller on it's own :inquisiti

MAX power yes (if you get a 2.5" downpipes ->3" collector back etc) though with a boost controller you can get get higher boost lower in the RPM range.
If you want reliablity though, standard boost with max power higher I would have thought is better.

The only issue is torque. increasing the boost will increase torque, which feels nice.
With the IC and Exhaust, you are increasing the boost the turbos will hold up to 5500RPM (max power) and as such, this is where your max power is.

With the boost controller, you can put it up to say 15psi and get this same power at 4500RPM (I think i got it around 4250 with the exhaust and IC as well as MBC) with increased torque. However because the turbos start choking at that point, the power does not go higher, it just sits there and wavers some up to 5500RPM or so when it starts dropping back down.

If you only use a boost controller with no exhaust (not sure how much difference the IC makes) then your max power will still be less than with the Exhaust and IC and no boost controller (mpau proved this with 160oddKW ATW with boost controller)

Let the engine breathe, and you will get gains without having to up the boost (flow increases) and IMO you dont sacrafice any reliability.

Wodjno
23-01-2007, 11:49 PM
MAX power yes (if you get a 2.5" downpipes ->3" collector back etc) though with a boost controller you can get get higher boost lower in the RPM range.
If you want reliablity though, standard boost with max power higher I would have thought is better.

The only issue is torque. increasing the boost will increase torque, which feels nice.
With the IC and Exhaust, you are increasing the boost the turbos will hold up to 5500RPM (max power) and as such, this is where your max power is.

With the boost controller, you can put it up to say 15psi and get this same power at 4500RPM (I think i got it around 4250 with the exhaust and IC as well as MBC) with increased torque. However because the turbos start choking at that point, the power does not go higher, it just sits there and wavers some up to 5500RPM or so when it starts dropping back down.

If you only use a boost controller with no exhaust (not sure how much difference the IC makes) then your max power will still be less than with the Exhaust and IC and no boost controller (mpau proved this with 160oddKW ATW with boost controller)

Let the engine breathe, and you will get gains without having to up the boost (flow increases) and IMO you dont sacrafice any reliability.

Chill Ken /pan

The Dude just wants a little bit more power and still keep reliability :speechles

He's not trying to compete with Enigma in his Capri :scholar:

Nutter_John
23-01-2007, 11:55 PM
I agree with Ken on the exhaust and downpipes , as when I fitted my exhaust it has moved the torque down by around 1000 rpm , I now hit full torque at 3300 rpm .

Now to jump in and offer some advise

When I got the vr4 I wasn't going to do anything ( yeah right that thought lasted all of ten minutes ) , first thing was the brakes

After that I fitted a boost controller and a decat , the last thing i did was the dual exit exhaust . I am currently putting out 305.6 bhp and 303 ft/llb torque from these upgrades . I have driven 34,000 miles in 17 months and the car has done 152,000 miles , she is as reliable now as she was when new .

if i was to start again i would do it a little differently , in that I would do the exhaust first and the rest after .

hope that helps

Wodjno
23-01-2007, 11:59 PM
I agree with Ken on the exhaust and downpipes , as when I fitted my exhaust it has moved the torque down by around 1000 rpm , I now hit full torque at 3300 rpm .

Now to jump in and offer some advise

When I got the vr4 I wasn't going to do anything ( yeah right that thought lasted all of ten minutes ) , first thing was the brakes

After that I fitted a boost controller and a decat , the last thing i did was the dual exit exhaust . I am currently putting out 305.6 bhp and 303 ft/llb torque from these upgrades . I have driven 34,000 miles in 17 months and the car has done 152,000 miles , she is as reliable now as she was when new .

if i was to start again i would do it a little differently , in that I would do the exhaust first and the rest after .

hope that helps

I'm only pushing about 240bhp :(

Nutter_John
24-01-2007, 12:12 AM
don't worry glen at the next RR day I'm sure you will be pushing over 300bhp

But how much will I be pushing will be the question I want answered ;)

Wodjno
24-01-2007, 12:18 AM
don't worry glen at the next RR day I'm sure you will be pushing over 300bhp

But how much will I be pushing will be the question I want answered ;)

You gotta get a whole car yet :inquisiti

Kenneth
24-01-2007, 12:19 AM
Chill Ken /pan

The Dude just wants a little bit more power and still keep reliability :speechles

He's not trying to compete with Enigma in his Capri :scholar:

I think you got the wrong end of the stick Glenn, I was only saying that you gain more with exhaust and IC as you do with a boost controller, as per your question.

The rest was merely an example of what happened with my car on the dyno with the said mods, proving that breathing better is much more effective than just upping the boost.

Everyone has their own preference to how they approach the subject. I believe the results of mine prove their worth however.

bradc
24-01-2007, 04:16 AM
If you want to keep the turbos at stock boost then as Kenneth and Glenn have argued/discussed, then an intercooler, panel filter, exhaust will help, but increasing the amount of boost does help as well :)

sanct
24-01-2007, 11:44 AM
Right peeps cheers for the input.
I think I would feel happiest with getting her breathing better first.
So induction, panel filter and exhaust.
What am I looking at roughly(£'s) for the above and what brand options seem to work most efficiently. As stated I want to keep her nice and reliable so I feel this is the best option.

Nick Mann
24-01-2007, 02:45 PM
Don't worry too much about the induction. An intercooler, yes, but the air box is going to be difficult to improve on. In the past, members have seen reduced power from aftermarket induction and I don't remember anyone who has proved an increase.

Definitely an exhaust, but bear in mind that your car will be louder. Personally, go for a custom system with plenty of in-line baffles but a good flow, or have a listen to a few members exhausts inside and outside.

In my opinion, boost controllers give more power but at the expense of reliability. A modest boost increase should not have a big effect, but once you have a volume control on the power, it's very difficult not to turn it up. Get a boost controller only if you get the car chipped/mapped at the same time. And turn the boost up only if you are prepared to shorten the life of your turbos.

Hope that another opinion helps, rather than hinders!

sanct
24-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Don't worry too much about the induction. An intercooler, yes, but the air box is going to be difficult to improve on. In the past, members have seen reduced power from aftermarket induction and I don't remember anyone who has proved an increase.

Definitely an exhaust, but bear in mind that your car will be louder. Personally, go for a custom system with plenty of in-line baffles but a good flow, or have a listen to a few members exhausts inside and outside.

In my opinion, boost controllers give more power but at the expense of reliability. A modest boost increase should not have a big effect, but once you have a volume control on the power, it's very difficult not to turn it up. Get a boost controller only if you get the car chipped/mapped at the same time. And turn the boost up only if you are prepared to shorten the life of your turbos.

Hope that another opinion helps, rather than hinders!

So which intercooler and costing I suppose is the next question?
Along with what sort of price am I gonna have to stump for a custom exhaust?
Should I rush out and start by getting a K&N's panel filter?

Funkstar
24-01-2007, 03:34 PM
Sorry for the hijack here, but in what way and to how much degree will a aftermarket IC improve performance. All this talk of intercoolers has got me interested.

Also, what is our best option for an upgraded intercooler. Is there a used option from an Evo, or are we looking at custom made jobbies for this.

enigma
24-01-2007, 04:03 PM
If I were to start again I would go:

nitrous for fun
fuel controller (MAP ECU and demaf at the same time)
exhaust and decat
plugs/leads
boost controller (or MAP ECU at step 2)
brakes
suspension
turbo/s
intercooler (I dont rate this upgrade for modest power/standard turbos)
internals

Nick Mann
24-01-2007, 09:27 PM
The intercooler cools the air down after the turbos have heated it up. The idea is that cooler air is more dense, so colder air at the same pressure means more oxygen in the cylinder.
I think the key is to find an intercooler that flows well, cools well but has minimal volume for the job it's doing. I can't make recommendations as I have never done that particular research. My car wears a small but perfectly formed ARC unit, following the research of its previous owner.

Kieran
25-01-2007, 01:56 AM
It's interesting to see how many variations people have on a theme.

I am still along that road myself. So far I am satisfied with my progress but there are things I would do differently if I were to start from scratch...

Here's what I've done so far:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19205

Certainly, before any performance upgrades, a thorough fettle in terms of servicing is the way to go - it's insurance and you can bet that some items will need attention. Get 'em sorted first.

Then - in order with topmost being the first upgrade:

Lots of Polish (oh come on, it's the law!! /Devil5)
Brakes
Suspension
Gauges - Boost, oil pressure, oil temperature and ATF temperature
Diagnostic port data logger with knock monitoring (Evoscan or similar)
NGK Plugs & Ultra Leads (plugs 1 heat range cooler)
Exhaust and High flow Sports Cat (or a Decat).
Intercooler with properly insulated outlet pipes.
High flow panel filter in standard airbox or ARC induction box with a sealed cold air feed.
Auxilliary Engine oil & ATF coolers.
Turbo Inlet pipework (perhaps not PROS Engineering though!!)
Fuel controller + wideband O2 sensor.
Boost controller.

I will be interested to see how far I get with no boost control - that to me shall be the icing on the cake.:happy: