The 280 question

[thecustomer]

Now, here's a thing.

From 1989 Japanese car manufacturers limited their power outputs to 280 hp (206 kW) , voluntarily. IIRC it was all to do with responsible motor manufacturing (http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/8948/japan-dumps-276-hp-pact.html).

And of course, some cars had more than 280hp, but the maker put '280' on the sticker, so that was ok. Kind of like the reverse of the Italians, who always claimed to have lots of horses, but they often escaped at the factory gate.

So did pre facelfit autos *really* only have 260hp?
Did facelfit cars really have only 280hp?
Or was Mitsubishi having a laugh?

Has anybody seen dyno day results with stock pre & post facelifts serving up more power than you might expect, on the same day?
Has anybody run a on a rolling road with japanese spec 102 octane (iirc) fuel?

:thinking:

Will

[bradc]

At the nz dyno day we had a few cars that were running at 8psi and were mechanically stock, and they made about 150kw at the wheels, then there was a couple of cars that were also stock, but for some reason they were running at about 11psi and they made 170kw. Obviously new spark plugs, coils + leads, new super slippery oil, a clean air intake etc can make up a bit of power too.

In my opinion the 280hp rating is about correct, the cars might have been up to about 290hp or so at max.

[Davezj]

this is exactly the thread i was going to start tonight.

this questions are only about stock cars no mods.

I know it is stated that the power output is different but why?

I don't mean politically WHY? i mean what have they done to get the extra 20HP out of the facelift version.

do they run the same boost. Mine is a prefacelift auto 0.55Bar (7-8psi). what do the facelift run and is it the same the manul version. i believe in the manuals that both the pre and post facelift have 280hp.

Does anyone know the actual answer to this?

could it be something to do with the speed restricker, but both models have that.

any info would be great.

Thanks dave

[Kenneth]

the popular belief is that its mostly done with a little bit of extra boost and possibly some refinement of the fuel and ignition maps.

[Davezj]

Whats your standard boost?
is it above the 0.55Bar/7-8psi?

[Kenneth]

standard boost for a facelift model seems to be around 8psi. At the dyno day we had one car that just sat on 8psi throughout the whole rev range. Probably the only car that was working mechanically as it was designed! His power output was about right too.

[Davezj]

When you say it was 8PSI all the way through the rev range, do you mean that you stick it first floor it and as soon as the turbo's spin up it holds that 8psi until it hits the rev limiter or a gear change.

My question would be why would it be any different?

I supose you might get some kind of drop off in boost at the very high rev point due to the turbo's being so small and not being able to supply the quantity of air that is required to feed the engine at those very high revs. But that is the trade off for very small fast spooling turbo's.

As far as i know my boost is maintained at a constant 0.55bar all the way to the red line. I will give it go next time i am out and about and make sure this is the case.

If that is the case, should i be able to increase boost to say 11psi and hey presto a nice increase in power.

dave

[Kenneth]

wouldn't hold it in first I don't think, but in 3rd yes.

Many of the cars at the dyno day had boost spikes around 5500 RPM, some getting up to 12PSI. Usually good for ~170KW ATW (about 225KW/300BHP ATF) on absolutely standard vehicles. All of them pre-facelift actually... it was the un-modified facelift that held 8psi.

[bradc]

which we thought at the time was possibly the wastegate spring giving up in it's old age on the prefacelift cars and not opening it as much as what it was supposed to.

[mpau009]

standard boost for a facelift model seems to be around 8psi. At the dyno day we had one car that just sat on 8psi throughout the whole rev range. Probably the only car that was working mechanically as it was designed! His power output was about right too.

Iv got a 98 prefacelift manual, I pulled out my gizzmo solenoid yesterday, and plugged the stock one back in, my car now boosts 7.5 psi, and 8 if i bury the accelerator. It noticably builds a few hundred rpm later than with the EBC, but is rock steady to at least 5500rpm.

I'm guessing my power and boost curve would be a near copy of williams NZ dyno day run.:thinking:

It seems a lot slower.. Davezj, you will really notice the extra acceration/power.

If your car is mostly stock, and your boost control is predictable, then around 13psi (.9ishbar) is ideal for getting some good power, without fuel cut issues.

[Davezj]

cheers for the info, i will try it after i put it through an MOT.

[thecustomer]

/Hijack

... what I find odd is that the facelift quoted output is *exactly* the max of the gentleman's agreement.

Which probably means that the facelift vr4 produced at least that power. That's how the olitics of this agreement ran.

Does the Kiwi experience bar that out, allowing for power losses between engine & wheel?

Will

[Kenneth]

/Hijack

... what I find odd is that the facelift quoted output is *exactly* the max of the gentleman's agreement.

Which probably means that the facelift vr4 produced at least that power. That's how the olitics of this agreement ran.

Does the Kiwi experience bar that out, allowing for power losses between engine & wheel?

Will

Yeah, the figures do bear that out. However we know that 8psi is pretty low boost, so in all probability the boost was set to achieve 280hp and no more.

[Davezj]

Now that makes sense.

Or does it, if this is true then the boost on the pre facelift auto at 260hp should be running less boost than the post facelift autos, but from the info i can gather they run the same boost.

Is this how you all see it.

[Kenneth]

it depends on why the pre-facelift was de-tuned. One suspicion is that it was done to protect the auto gearbox. If this is true, then they may have done it either with boost, or ignition timing.

[Davezj]

why is the facelft auto model supposed to 280hp as standard.

Did they descide "oh it doesn't matter anymore we think the auto can handle the extra power now" and did the adjustment, whatever it is.

Or is the facelift auto box different from prefacelift, more robust?

Sorry for all the question kenneth i am just thinking out load. i am not driving all these question at you. just general thought and feelings on the subject. i didn't want you to think "my god what this person on, i want answers, I want, i want from Kenneth and i want it now". I can come across a bit strong at times it just because i am interested and enjoy this type of thing.
these are just ponderous thoughts really.
I like to find out the whole truth, if you get my meaning, not just bit and bobs.

Cheers for all your help Dave

[bradc]

the gearbox part code is the same, so they haven't made an entirely new gearbox for the facelifts. I think mitsi probably just wanted to sell more, so they put the power up.

[Davezj]

that's my thought, but i don't see what they have done to make it 280hp from 260hp it is quite a bit of a jump. if you could do that at a drop of a hat we would all be doing it. Oh i will just have another 20hp. now got 280 i will just have another 20hp.
We all know how difficult it is to make a significant jump in hp and 20 is a significant jump, it usually cost a lot to get that kind of increase so how have they done it.
if it just removing some kind of limiting gadget can it be delimited some more?
Maybe.

[Kenneth]

that's my thought, but i don't see what they have done to make it 280hp from 260hp it is quite a bit of a jump. if you could do that at a drop of a hat we would all be doing it. Oh i will just have another 20hp. now got 280 i will just have another 20hp.
We all know how difficult it is to make a significant jump in hp and 20 is a significant jump, it usually cost a lot to get that kind of increase so how have they done it.
if it just removing some kind of limiting gadget can it be delimited some more?
Maybe.

apparently our engines make about 10hp (or was it 10KW?) per PSI of boost, and about the same per degree of timing. so on that, it wouldn't be hard to make up the boost difference with 1psi less of boost and 1deree of retard.

I do wonder if having the ASC / TC had anything to do with the 260hp figure

[bradc]

It's normally about 10hp, have a look at the difference 8psi to 12psi makes, it is about 25kw at the wheels.

I don't know if the ASC/TC system had anything to do with it, but what I can tell you is that I don't like that system at all and I would like to remove it from the white vr4

[Davezj]

That sounds interesting, under my bonnet i have a sticker saying something about 6.5 degrees Before Top Dead Centre.
What's that all about?

[Kieran]

I don't know if the ASC/TC system had anything to do with it, but what I can tell you is that I don't like that system at all and I would like to remove it from the white vr4

/Hijack

Why?

[bradc]

because whenever you want to have fun it makes the car an understeering pig that feels like a front wheel drive car and it steals all the power

[Davezj]

I presume it is to do with any safty system it takes power awy when you are about to get it a bit wrong. which is great for me as i would not say i was a great driver, i don't have enough fear and end up getting it a bit wrong sometimes. i have found these systems have helped me in the past and on any dodge surface or unexpected water it is a god send.

[Kieran]

because whenever you want to have fun it makes the car an understeering pig that feels like a front wheel drive car and it steals all the power

I'll go with you as far as the TCL, if you're really in the mood for mischief, switch this off - but once you've done that it's all good and fun - I think otherwise it's a handy feature that often helps keep things the right side of safe. I really think the TCL+ASC on the prefacelifts is much maligned!:inquisiti

[berg1987]

at the risk of sounding stupid, what is the TCL+ASC?

[Nutter_John]

Traction Control + Advanced Stabillity Control ( before anyone winges the advanced maybe somthing else begining with A )

[bradc]

tcl = traction control
asc = stability control

Kieran, the stability control annoys me because it brakes the car too intrusively, especially at intersections where you need all the power possible.

it is good fun on my gravel driveway though because it senses things aren't quite going to plan when the car is at a 45 degree angle on the gravel, so it hits the brakes, which locks the wheels, so the abs kicks in, and the system gets terribly confused. I still end up pointing the correct way though.

[berg1987]

ah ok, thanks john :)

[berg1987]

o and brad to!

[berg1987]

(slight hijacking here...) is there anyway of getting the wheels to spin in a prefacelift launch (tiptorinc by the way) i have a friend who drives a v3000 vr4 and i want to show him that our 8g's are more than capable of putting power to road in a straight line

[bradc]

if you have it in drive and have your foot on the brake, rev the engine up as high as possible and see what happens, depending on your tyres and the quality of the road, you might get them spinning

[berg1987]

yeah ive tried but im tyres have too much grip.. hopefully when i get a ebc put in ill still manage to take him.

[Davezj]

in an auto, that will just fry you touque converter won't it. because the rear wheels will not spin without the fronts spinning aswell and you are breaking the fronts very hard. so all that power has to be soaked up somewhere and that will be in the torque converter

I have only ever had 4 wheel spin on gravel.

[Xeroid]

4 wheel drift is much more fun ...
Recipe:
One wintery low tided beach out west
One VR4
Insert Tip into second or third at a bout 80-100 kph on said beach and just chuck her into it. As cornering is acheived flip to opposite lock and feather throttle to maintain the 4 fountians of sand from the wheels.
Can be held in one handRest elbow on window sill as you perform various figures of eight, loops and slides for 10 minutes then leave before local constabulary turns up.

Works for me . . . .

[valmes]

Auto boxes are different on 96-98 and 98-2002 cars.

[Kieran]

Auto boxes are different on 96-98 and 98-2002 cars.

How so, Val? Is it just the filter not being present on the later ones, or is there more to it?:inquisiti

[valmes]

Hmmm... I am not an expert on Auto boxes, but there are guys who had a look and repaired 96-98 and 98-02 autoboxes and found some parts to be different (sorry it's all in Russian...):

http://forums.drom.ru/showthread.php?t=1150905092

[Kieran]

Ooooh..... Very interesting. I'll have a look. Thanks Val!