Methanol !!

[Wodjno]

Whats peoples thoughts on adding Methanol to the Unleaded Fuel in our Tanks to prevent Detonation at High Boost Levels.. I have read that a 10% addition of Methanol can increase the Octane level by 5 ! So Tesco's 99 will become 104 octane.. Also the addition of upto 5% Water to the Methanol, can increase the Octane level even higher..

Looking at this mainly for days such as Rolling Road and Track Days.. But maybe on a lesser addition amount(5%) for everyday running ?

[Kieran]

Dunno if you've seen this thread from the depths of the CVR4 archive Wodj - Might be useful?

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=846

[Nutter_John]

Thought that with Meths you would have to advance the timing as it burns slower than pertol and as such needs to be ignited before a certain before a certain point to allow it to be at max burn rate at the correct point in the cycle

[Wodjno]

Dunno if you've seen this thread from the depths of the CVR4 archive Wodj - Might be useful?

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=846

Interesting read !!

But is using a small amount of Methanol any different to using a Pay thru the Nose octane Booster, or High Octane Racing Fuel ??




Just trying to find a cost effective way of making our engines safer while on the limit.. Not looking for Power gains from the additive, just the ability to suppressdetonation while at high revs and high boost levels..

[Wouter]

I know of a chap running a water and methenol through a Aqua mist kit, he was running 522 at the wheels from a 2.5 sierra block, twin turbo'd and supperchargered.

Maybe that is an idea for you!

[K9NG]

Not sure on methanol but I reckon John is spot on about the timing etc..
I used to use ethanol in my water injection until it kept melting my resevior bottle and and associated pipes /pan

[Wodjno]

I know of a chap running a water and methenol through a Aqua mist kit, he was running 522 at the wheels from a 2.5 sierra block, twin turbo'd and supperchargered.

Maybe that is an idea for you!

Aquamist was on my to do list 2 years ago ! It's taken a back seat for now, but is still an option for the future. Bonsai Boy has been running Aquamist for about 3 years or so..

From what you have said Wouter.. What can be the difference of adding a small amount in with the Fuel ??

[Wodjno]

Thought that with Meths you would have to advance the timing as it burns slower than pertol and as such needs to be ignited before a certain before a certain point to allow it to be at max burn rate at the correct point in the cycle

This is Truewhen running on Neat Methanol.. But the Methanol will only be added to the Fuel as a maximum of 10% to stop detonation.

Methanol is probably in our Fuel already.. Each Fuel Company adds different additives to there fuels to reach a particular Octane !!

[Wodjno]

Have a read here:

WHEN USING PETROL . . .

We have three additives in Methanol, Acetone and Benzole (Benzene) and all of them are introduced with the main object of reducing Detonation by increasing in effect the Octane rating of the total fuel. Pre-ignition in general should not present a problem when using as basic fuel petrol.

Methanol in Petrol. This is the best from the point of view of reducing Detonation, followed by Acetone and then Benzole in that order.

Methanol can be added in all proportions up to 100 percent, but as an additive limited to 10 percent will give an Octane increase of about 5 points. For example 98 Octane can be increased to 103, or looking at it another way, cheap fuel of say 91 Octane can, by the use of 10 percent Methanol, or approximately three quarters of a pint per gallon, will produce fuel of 96 Octane.

[Wouter]

What can be the difference of adding a small amount in with the Fuel ??

I presume you wish to add the methanol to run leaner without the risk of det?

If that is the case then just adding it to the fuel will not really give you acurate mixtures.... buy using the aquamist you will be able to control the mixture.

If all you are after is an octain boost.... then I see no problems... but I am no expert.

[Wodjno]

I presume you wish to add the methanol to run leaner without the risk of det?

If that is the case then just adding it to the fuel will not really give you acurate mixtures.... buy using the aquamist you will be able to control the mixture.

If all you are after is an octain boost.... then I see no problems... but I am no expert.

I don't want to run any leaner.. I have got my AFR's to 11.8-11.9 upto 6000rpm then richen up a tad to 11.2 by Red line.. All i want to do is lessen the risk of detonation at high bosst, high rev applications..

[Wouter]

It sounds like a good idea!

You could check if adding the methonal to the fuel can cause any damage to the fuel pump or injectors.

I presume that the fuel pump and injectors are designed to operate with liquids of a certain viscosity, adding methonal to the fuel may affect how well the pump and injectors work. (I doubt it, but maybe something to think about)

...... then again.... these are Jap cars.... they are pretty over engineered!

[Wodjno]

It sounds like a good idea!

You could check if adding the methonal to the fuel can cause any damage to the fuel pump or injectors.

I presume that the fuel pump and injectors are designed to operate with liquids of a certain viscosity, adding methonal to the fuel may affect how well the pump and injectors work. (I doubt it, but maybe something to think about)

...... then again.... these are Jap cars.... they are pretty over engineered!

Your in the Fuel Biz ain't Ya ??

Any idea of what crap the retailers stick in the fuel before it gets to the pumps ?? What octane it is when it leaves the refinery ??

[Wouter]

All I know is that the base fuel supplied by the refineries is the same no matter which refinery you go to.

When a BP tanker picks it's fuel up from a Shell refinery, it adds the additives on route.

What they put into the fuels is top secret. The additives are the key to the fuel.

[Wouter]

The best place for info on running Methanol or other fancy addatives will be the american websites.

They are really big on aquamist and so on, the problem as always will be finding the info.

[Wodjno]

All I know is that the base fuel supplied by the refineries is the same no matter which refinery you go to.

When a BP tanker picks it's fuel up from a Shell refinery, it adds the additives on route.

What they put into the fuels is top secret. The additives are the key to the fuel.

So does it leave the refinery all the same octane or is there a Super and Normal when it leaves.. Or is it just Super and Normal once there additives are added.. Any idea of octane when it leaves refinery ??

[Wouter]

Any idea of octane when it leaves refinery ??

No,

This is the process for normal fuel 95 ron.

Optimax was only made in Stanlow (Near chester) and then driven or pumped arround the UK.

Just for the record I am in IT and all the info I have is what i have gleamed from conversations with fuels specialists with the Shell Group.

It should be acurate.... /pan

[BraindG]

:thinking: Without reading this entire thread - hasn't this already been covered here (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22989)?

:inquisiti


/runs away

[Wouter]

/pan

[Nick Mann]

:thinking: Without reading this entire thread - hasn't this already been covered here (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22989)?

:inquisiti


/runs away


I missed your point completely there?!

PJ used to run a methanol/water mix in his aquamist. However, he used to get through many pumps!! Talking to Nobles about it, the best thing about it is the fact that you can run higher boost with less risk of detonation. The extra power is a nice sideline.

[Wodjno]

:thinking: Without reading this entire thread - hasn't this already been covered here (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22989)?

:inquisiti


/runs away

Barry ! Without reading all of the Thread in your Link !! Can you tell us if it covers what we are discussing in this thread :inquisiti

[valmes]

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/intake/WI.htm
http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/fuelling_advanced.htm
http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/gasolineFAQ.htm

One quote:

"If at all possible, avoid fuels that use alcohol as an addictive to increase fuel octane. We understand that Mobil does not use alcohol in most states. Alcohol, being more volatile than gasoline, tends to evaporate and lower fuel octane. Large in tank or in line pumps "re-circulate" excess fuel at idle, part throttle and cruise. This results in hotter fuel and increased fuel evaporation (octane reduction) from not only the "re-circulation" but the continuous pressurizing and de-pressurizing of the fuel. Why do you think that Ford has gone to returnless (no return) fuel systems? One reason was to reduce fuel octane losses."

Also this is of some interest: ;)
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm

[Nick Mann]

Some good links there, valmes. One of the most interesting for me is talking about the water you should use in a misting system, and how (in his opinion) you should mix it with methanol:

Tap water might be a bad idea if you leave in an hard water area. The water should be soft and well filtered (via a home-purifier perhaps). 50% methanol mix is being touted as the best compromise of power/pump reliability/heat containment.

However, in most cases I don't see this happening.

Methanol is a nasty chemical and you don't want to touch it or smell it. But if you use the windscreen washer bottle, you ARE going to inhale it, every time you wash the windscreen. It's very toxic. It's also very flammable, and it boils well below 100C.

Therefore I wouldn't want more than 10% of the thing in my windscreen tank, and that's only because some form of antifreeze is needed in the winter.

Commercial windscreen fluids rarely contain methanol nowadays, for the same health reasons. They contain other kinds of alcohol, that will swell your pump's seals and kill it. So they, too, are out of the question.

Ah, but I'll use a separate water tank I hear you say. I've got a cool aluminium 2lt tank, so I'll use that for the 50/50 methanol/water injection. Listen carefully then: methanol attacks aluminium and the swarf will end up clogging your filter and the pump will then run dry. Nasty stuff this methanol, it also attacks some forms of rubber and plastic. You've been warned.