WRD Forged Pistons and Rods Upgrade Discussion Thread

[Wodjno]

... :d

[Nutter_John]

Thanks Glen your a star and have saved me the effort

[bradc]

So John, how much US$, and are they good for 600hp, and is the crank good for 600hp?

[Nutter_John]

Ok I will cover this in a overview

The standard vr4 crank is forged by default and should handle a lot more than it does now , so the process that we are going through with it is ground down to smooth the journal and reduce it's size . After this the journals are nitrated which increases the size of journals above stock , these are the honed ans polished until they are 55mm which is stock .

The pistons are based on the standard size and shape , with the same compression ratio ( yes we could have gone lower for more boost etc , but unless you are just using for drag it becomes undrivable on the road ) . The pistons are coated and have a special skirt design ( top secret :p) . These pistons should handle well in excess of 600 but we have set the targets low so that we can have a safety margin

The conrods are being designed to be able to again hanlde 600+bhp but should be able to go much further .

Now as for price we have ordered a number of sets of these to allow us to play and push the limits a little so we don't really have bulk pricing but and DO NOT hold us to this if we got 6 sets made up we should be able to resell for around 800-850 inc rings and pins .

One area we are looking at is the heads to see how much bigger we can go with porting and values clearances , spring rates and uprated value/guides . This will allow us to move the redline closer to 8.5k as this is where we see as a good area to be in , allowing the use of td05's and them boosting from 4000 rpm right up to 8500

We are also looking at working the bores and decking to improve the structure /flow around the pots etc

All of this will be made available once we have run the engine in and done some dyno plots etc as at this point we will be ready to confirm the price and power rating

hope this helps and any questions please post in glens thread :p ( no in hear please as I was being rude doing it in his )

Thanks John

[bradc]

ok cool, so at least the crank isn't a weak point, but it does need a little bit of work to make it perfect. I don't think it makes economic sense to send something that heavy all the way to england, I'd just get that done here, but I'm definately up for a set of pistons and rods designed to handle 600hp at 8500rpm.

As for the head work, I have a set of spare heads here, again I don't there is much point sending them to england, so I'll have them worked on here.

The real difficult issue is deciding if I want a 2.8l 6a13tt or a 2.5l

[Nutter_John]

if you look in the EVO world you have two trends for top performance

One school is to stroke or bore for bigger displacement , and rightly so from the drag world there is no replacement for displacement .

and the second school is to push the redline higher to have a longer powerband from bigger turbos .

Both have there pro's and cons and if my money pit was bottomless I would be looking at a combination of the two , bored block , stroker and push the redline up . but with our engines there is no big buyers for the kit hence the lack of ready made stuff . you can get off the shelf parts for the EVO to forge the internals for not much over 1k

Most good engine shops should be able to prepare the block , and the head work ( bar skimming) you could do your self . For the crank you need to find the best guy you can to do this as it is the underpinning of the build , get this worng and it become a waste of money .

at the end of the day i could not use the pistons or rods from a stroker kit on a standard crank as it would just smash into the heads . so which ever route you go down is the one you stay with or restart from scratch

When we have got my car built it will be running TD05's 16g's and the redline will be mapped to 8500rpm hard and a soft limit of 8000rpm , now with the tubrines pushing boost from around 3500 rpm that gives me a full 5000 rpm on boost which is around the same lenght as our cars now , this means it will be a drivable 600 ( not suggesting the stroker wouldn't but the redline would be lower do the speed of the pistons )

[bradc]

Or if money was no object, put in an 8A80 :D

Will WRD be making manifolds and downpipes suitable for td05's? If so then I would be keen on a set as well. Are you intending to mount the turbos beside the engine, or have them come out further and be mounted alongside the transmission?

[Nutter_John]

yep and yep

as for the location it is to be decided yet as there is very little space around the block to fit large housings so side mounts is prob the way we will go

once we have do the first one more will be known as to which other bits need to change as well

watch this space as the saying goes

[Kieran]

Crumbs. On a slight /Hijack, what boost will you be pushing the TD05s at? From my limited knowledge of engine air CFM requirements and compressor flow maps, two TD05 turbos with (I assume?) 'Big' 16G compressors will provide a hell of a lot of flow!

I will be interested to see the results!

[Nutter_John]

will be aiming for upto 2 bar or which ever hits 600 quickest :D

[bradc]

yeah that'd be about right. I'm running 20psi at the moment, and it's fine. obviously td05's at 20psi would flow a lot more air than td03's at 20psi.

[valmes]

Gotta watch this space... :)

I am doing a little rebuild myself at the moment... :) Nothing major...

[Goku]

Gotta watch this space... :)

I am doing a little rebuild myself at the moment... :) Nothing major...

Same here :)

Side note: How easy is it to attach Td04's on to the 6A13TT's ?

[Gly]

will you be doing any other of the shelf piping for smaller turbos...
td04s?

[Nutter_John]

We are working on a manifold kit at the minute for td04's to replace the standard td03's .

[bradc]

I think td04's would be a better option for most people than td05's, considering how they spool on an evo I doubt you'd get a serious whack of boost until 4500rpm, which is unacceptable for me. I'd prefer a more modern ball bearing turbo such as a gt2554r that is still capable of 300kw atw from two turbos, but is going to spool at 3000rpm.

[Eurospec]

Brad, i think 04's are probably better for a daily driver car, but it depends what people want.

05's will take longer to spool, but they will ultimately provide more power. 04's i think would provide a very strong 'streetable' upgrade, but even they might run out of flow up top.

On the subject of the crank, it is one beefy mofo considering what it is.

If you look at a 6A12 NA bottom end, there is not much to it, yet the TT version in the 7g galant vr4 shared rods and crank.

If you then look at a 6a13tt crank, it looks massive, much much beefier, though not quite as big as a 72 crank.

The 6A13tt crank is forged- which the early 72 cranks werent, and that does help. The 72 crank seems to give up at power outputs about 900. (The crank flexes and scowls the mains out) This was the original driver behind the pampena billet cranks as far as i recall. If you keep pishing these cranks at that power level they crack.

How much will a forged 13 crank take? Well lets try and find out!

Rods and pistons are something you need to find that. I dont think the std pistons will survive really high horespowers and probably will break the ringlands off like most of the mitsu ones do. Forged pistons are certainly going to be more forgiving as regards knock than std ones- which will allow you to run leaner mixtures and generate more power that way too.

So lets see what it all looks like when we get our hands on the prototype sets and see how they go.

Cheers,

Ben.

[Nutter_John]

took you long enough to start posting :p

[Eurospec]

Sorry mate, 2am er this morning! I was gonna post yesterday and i typed it all out, but then i had my dyno slot pulled fwd an hour so i didnt have time to finish it! Then when i got back, a scooby engine to drag out, a camblet on an evo 8 and a Diamate with a power steering tensioner gone!

By the way, Diamante's! Somebody sunk my battleship!

Cheers,

Ben.

[bradc]

td04's are regularly hitting 150-160kw atw each, which is more than enough for me, the reason I want to go with gt2554r's is that they are ball bearing and should spool sooner.

Ben - are any of the DR650 or DR800 turbo's similar to a gt2554r and are available in a ball bearing model?

[Eurospec]

Yes and no.

The DR650's are just a std mitsu TD04 housing and they are not available as ball bearing.

The DR800 and up are all TD05 garrett based turbos with various hybred wheels.

The DR1000 and 1200 are available as DBB.

I imagine the 800 could be done as a DBB, but i believe the cost of the centre housing is about US$1000 alone.

Cheers,

Ben.

[Gly]

id be keen on tdo4 setup,
whats the est. price on this?

and witch tdo4s will it be designed for? (off what car? etc.)

[bradc]

ben - yeah thats too much, gt2554r's are a better option. what are your opinions on them?

[Solardavid350]

Have you thought of putting the crank and rods though cryogenics?
I know some research has been done on this..and secret squirrel tells me its used in Formula 1.
I believe if you nitride a crank this is done with alot of heat and in a high nitrogen atmosphere causing a very thin layer of hardened surface,but can cause the crank to bend and might require straightening.
Freezing the same components in liquid nitrogen will go all the way though with no bending and completely changes the molecular structure to a smoother harder metal..
It can produce results of +20% harder and is not as expensive as it sounds.
Apparently you can do almost any metal too...so discs,blocks,head etc can all be treated.
I got some magazine around somewhere and if i can over the weekend i`ll scan it and post up.

[Goku]

Hmmmm..... Thats sounds pretty cool actually.

I'd be interested if anyone knows if there is somewhere in NZ that is doing this.

[Solardavid350]

http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/

[Goku]

For us NZ fellas interested in this, I emailed frozensolid and they returned this link for a place here that dies this process.

http://www.subzero.net.nz/index.php

[Nutter_John]

6 weeks was the lead time for the design and delivery , but I would like to hope that once these have been complete turn around should be 3 weeks max

[Kieran]

Okay guys, this thread was getting a tad messy, so I've made a copy and renamed it, so if you have any info/chat/questions about forged stuff that's not related to the stuff that WRD are developing, you can post it in the link below - Keeps everything neat and tidy.:scholar:

Link:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=254305#post254305

[Mark 4]

Any news ??

[scott.mohekey]

Did this go anywhere?

[Kieran]

Did this go anywhere?

No, sadly. Not long after the posts on this thread, WRD ceased trading.