General Forged Pistons and Rods Upgrade Discussion Thread [Archive]

Solardavid350

25-05-2007, 10:49 PM

Have you thought of putting the crank and rods though cryogenics?
I know some research has been done on this..and secret squirrel tells me its used in Formula 1.
I believe if you nitride a crank this is done with alot of heat and in a high nitrogen atmosphere causing a very thin layer of hardened surface,but can cause the crank to bend and might require straightening.
Freezing the same components in liquid nitrogen will go all the way though with no bending and completely changes the molecular structure to a smoother harder metal..
It can produce results of +20% harder and is not as expensive as it sounds.
Apparently you can do almost any metal too...so discs,blocks,head etc can all be treated.
I got some magazine around somewhere and if i can over the weekend i`ll scan it and post up.

Goku

25-05-2007, 11:42 PM

Hmmmm..... Thats sounds pretty cool actually.

I'd be interested if anyone knows if there is somewhere in NZ that is doing this.

Solardavid350

25-05-2007, 11:59 PM

http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/

Goku

26-05-2007, 06:18 AM

For us NZ fellas interested in this, I emailed frozensolid and they returned this link for a place here that dies this process.

http://www.subzero.net.nz/index.php

zentac

29-05-2007, 07:11 PM

Finally got my rods and pistons through. I will get you a quote for them as soon as I can.

Rich.

bradc

29-05-2007, 08:28 PM

Thanks Richard :) Are they different to stock in any way, ie compression ratio, size, etc?

zentac

29-05-2007, 10:12 PM

They are slightly different design and smaller tails so the larger rods dont have any clearence problems, and slightly deeper crowns.

Louis

29-05-2007, 10:18 PM

what sort of rings are you going for?, did they come with pins etc

zentac

29-05-2007, 10:21 PM

JE Pistons with JE Pro Seal rings.

Louis

29-05-2007, 10:25 PM

Very nice, they look V good, were they a special or did they have something close that they machined, or are off the shelf for the VR4??, (how much?)

Goku

29-05-2007, 10:45 PM

So shiny...... almost a waste to put them in the engine and get them dirty lol

djb160

29-05-2007, 10:53 PM

I agree. So pretty.....

bradc

29-05-2007, 11:24 PM

wow those are some proper rods! How much for a set to NZ Richard?

zentac

30-05-2007, 04:38 AM

I will get all the prices and let you know.

zentac

31-05-2007, 05:38 PM

Ive just had a quote from my supplier and the pistons will be £990 and the rods are £1185. 4 weeks build time on the pistons and 10 weeks on the Rods. That is delivered to me, then theres shipping on that to where ever..... Im not willing to supply these until my engine is built and weve checked the tollarances.

zentac

31-05-2007, 05:39 PM

Anyone want in on a Stroker Kit that i'm sourcing from the USA .. :thinking:

:scholar:

hmmm tell me more ;) custom made or does one already exist?

bradc

31-05-2007, 08:09 PM

prices duly noted :)

Wodjno

31-05-2007, 10:34 PM

hmmm tell me more ;) custom made or does one already exist?

Custom Made of Course :D

Mark 4

31-05-2007, 10:48 PM

I'll have one.:afro:

Wodjno

31-05-2007, 11:15 PM

I'll have one.:afro:

It's not going to be a short term project :speechles
32 to 52 weeks :inquisiti

Mark 4

31-05-2007, 11:17 PM

ooh that's a long time, surely the gestation period for a whale is shorter /pan /pan /pan

zentac

31-05-2007, 11:21 PM

so youve supplied block,crank rods and pistons to someone to make the stroker kit then? nice, keep me informed.

djb160

01-06-2007, 12:07 AM

ooh that's a long time, surely the gestation period for a whale is shorter /pan /pan /pan

Actually no. After a quick google. it turns out that it's almost exactly the same time depending on the whale concerned.
:scholar:

Wodjno

01-06-2007, 09:32 AM

so youve supplied block,crank rods and pistons to someone to make the stroker kit then? nice, keep me informed.

I need more information than that :speechles

OOOoooooooops :thinking:

/Hijack

ooh that's a long time, surely the gestation period for a whale is shorter

I can get them quicker /yes

But i'm trying to keep the cost down and ensure that everything is spot on :D

"Zentac" How long have your pistons and rods taken from 1st thought to delivery ??

Also WRD ! Same question :)

kevin ap motors

01-06-2007, 06:06 PM

richy rich

01-06-2007, 06:33 PM

Nutter_John

01-06-2007, 06:34 PM

excellent news there Kevin , really pleased for ya .

Looking forward to seeing the beast in the flesh and being the first vr4 into the 10's on the pod ?????

Wodjno

01-06-2007, 06:54 PM

KNOW YOU ALL DECIDE ON MAKING SOME PISTONS AFTER I SPENT ALL THAT MONEY AND TIME ON MINE:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
tD04S WHICH I AM RUNNING SEEM TO BE GOOD MAKING 480 BHP AND 530 IBS AT 1.4 BAR NOT BAD !!!
SHOULD HAVE THE CAR BACK FROM BODYSHOP NEXT WEEK AND I AM GOING TO TAKE THE BOOST TO 2.0 BAR AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!

Wondering when you would show up :D

So are you going to share your magnificent pistons, rods etc etc with CVR4 to :speechles

The more options the better /yes

And obviously it would be great to see you getting some return for your time and investment :scholar:

Lillywotsername

01-06-2007, 08:37 PM

I just think it is GREAT to see you back on the forums Kev......

Come back more often.

Kieran

01-06-2007, 10:41 PM

So are you going to share your magnificent pistons, rods etc etc with CVR4 to :speechles

The more options the better /yes

And obviously it would be great to see you getting some return for your time and investment :scholar:

My thoughts exactly! /yes

Mark 4

02-06-2007, 12:10 AM

My thoughts exactly! /yes

Abso ***ing utely !:iloveyou: :iloveyou:

Kenneth

02-06-2007, 01:44 AM

Kieran

02-06-2007, 10:12 AM

Okay, as expained here:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=254080#post254080

This is now the thread for stuff that's not being produced by WRD, so chat away! :)

Mark 4

25-06-2007, 10:31 PM

Well ??

scott.mohekey

28-03-2009, 03:42 AM

Bump! Interested in sourcing some forged internals soon.

Fully

28-03-2009, 04:56 AM

Yes I know were I'm getting mine from =)
RPW!

scott.mohekey

28-03-2009, 04:59 AM

The CP ones? They're NA aren't they? Are you going to get the dish deepened?

Fully

28-03-2009, 09:23 AM

CP - 6A13 DOHC 020"
( CP Pistons ) Compression ratio set to 12.5 : 1. Change to custom 8.5:1
Price per Unit (Kit): $1681.82

PAR Forged Conrod Kits
Price per Unit (Kit): $1909.09
These prices are AU$

They will work fine, I use CP pistons in my harley.
Deepen the dish, depends on the compression I want and what cams I am going to use. I still havent worked that one out yet. I might fire up taps over the next few weeks when I am the office biatch and work that out.

Wodjno

28-03-2009, 09:28 AM

http://rb-performance.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/24/products_id/72

Nutter_John

28-03-2009, 09:28 AM

Dude They sure will work fine in your block for just enough time for you to make boost and them to then **** there load all over your engine bay

12.5:1 is far far too mcuh for a turbo'd engine

Mark 4

28-03-2009, 10:12 AM

Eurospec have some.

Wodjno

28-03-2009, 10:16 AM

Eurospec have some.

And Mr Batty and Kev at AP :thinking: If he ever gets round to sharing them with us ?

Kieran

28-03-2009, 01:00 PM

and Kev at AP :thinking: If he ever gets round to sharing them with us ?

Hmm - I think that unlikely. I'd say Eurospec or Mr. B are the best bets.

Mind you, I bet it won't be long before RPW start making them too.

Turbo_Steve

28-03-2009, 01:17 PM

12.5 compression on a turbo engine! I suppose you could just remap, keep the boost under 6spi and hopefully it would make lots and lots of low down torque and not go bang.

As john says, I think you'll put a rod through the block the first time you put your foot down.
Deepening the disk enough to seriously affect the compression ratio is also going to be a chaqllenge, as you start to run out of metal fairly quickly....and things get HOT when you're turbocharged: 800degC plus impact force is likely to put a hole in a thin piston crown.

Wodjno

28-03-2009, 02:05 PM

Hmm - I think that unlikely.

Whys that K ?

Kieran

28-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Whys that K ?

In the past Kev's been very guarded about his setup and where it's sourced from - Which is understandable given the cash and R&D time he's sunk into that car... I think he'll be wanting to try and recoup some of that cash, or at the very least put down a tangible result before he shares details of the setup and forged bits that he's used.

Wodjno

28-03-2009, 03:06 PM

In the past Kev's been very guarded about his setup and where it's sourced from - Which is understandable given the cash and R&D time he's sunk into that car... I think he'll be wanting to try and recoup some of that cash, or at the very least put down a tangible result before he shares details of the setup and forged bits that he's used.

But by guarding and taking so long with sharing the fruits of his labour, has only got to be harmfull to his chances of recouping his money and having club members want to purchase his performance parts :speechles

The likes of Mr Batty and Eurospec have been open with sharing there parts and performance info /yes
That is the way it should be and not doing it secretively from behind closed doors /pan

Eurospec

28-03-2009, 06:57 PM

I did post piccies of our rods and pistons on here ages and ages ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture138.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture137.jpg

Our pistons are forged, ceramic coated crowns, molly coated skirts, 8.5CR (IIRC), oil relief, contact reduction grooves etc etc etc.

Rods are forged steel I beam.

The pistons are sized for the std bore- so called drop in forged. We wanted to test them first before we said they are good to go because we wanted to be sure they are pucker before we sold them to customers. Back then we intended to have our FTO drag car (with this engine in it) finished long ago...... But obviously it still isnt.

The issue with drop in forged is obviously the clearance- forged pistons expand more than cast, and whilst we sized and clearanced the pistons for a good condition (ie not warn) stock bore, we wanted to be sure there would be no heat related expansion issues before we released them.

When the drag car finally runs (waiting on new manifolds now) we'l be able to prove the pistons.

Cheers,

Ben.

Eurospec

28-03-2009, 06:59 PM

Sorry- as the guys mentioned 12.5CR is too high for turbo unless you are gonna run C16 or meth. It will knock like a bugger with the CR up that high.

Cheers,

Ben.

Fully

28-03-2009, 10:21 PM

Sorry I just had what spec they were, You need to lower the compression.
I blame the beer!

scott.mohekey

28-03-2009, 10:28 PM

Sorry I just had what spec they were, You need to lower the compression.
I blame the beer!

How? Raise the deck with a shim?

scott.mohekey

28-03-2009, 10:31 PM

The issue with drop in forged is obviously the clearance- forged pistons expand more than cast, and whilst we sized and clearanced the pistons for a good condition (ie not warn) stock bore, we wanted to be sure there would be no heat related expansion issues before we released them.

Is the issue at the top of the stroke (cylinder height), or the bore itself? I.e. are you worried the expansion will cause the piston to be too high or too wide?

If the latter case, would it be safe to run a slightly raised deck which would also give lower compression? Alternatively, if its the latter, is it at all possible to rebore the block to suit?

Also, are the pistons you're referring to the same as the ones on the rb-performance site? (I noticed the JE pistons wrapping in the pictures).

zentac

28-03-2009, 11:21 PM

It looks like we both used JE Pistions, mine were slightly oversized by 0.5mm as we had the block bored and honed. Mine have been running at over 500bhp for 12 months now, we stripped it down over the winter to check it over and get new cams in and everything is fine in there.

We slightly redesigned the rods and pistons so you have to use the two together to get the correct stroke.

We actually went through a 3rd party that re-designed them for us so I guess ben's may come in slightly cheaper.

Fully

28-03-2009, 11:26 PM

Compression -
The piston moves up and compresses the trapped air fuel mixture that was brought in by the intake stroke. The amount that the mixture is compressed is determined by the compression ratio of the engine. The compression ratio on the average engine is in the range of 8:1 to 10:1.
This means that when the piston reaches the top of the cylinder, the air-fuel mixture is squeezed to about one tenth of its original volume.

Too little or too much compression can damage pistons, rings, valves, valve guides, valve seats and the cylinder wall. If an exhaust valve leaks, exhaust can back up into the cylinder, causing premature wear. Too much compression can cause the air-fuel mixture to burn too fast, causing knocking or pinging. Excess compression can leave carbon deposits that further aggravate problems.

I have a question, I thought our motors run compression ratio of about 12:1 at full boost any way, is that true?

Like if you have a motor with a compresion of 8:1 + 4psi boost = 8.5:1+3.5 psi boost = 12:1 this is going on a lower compression with boost using a % forumula.

Scott - I have no idea about the rb-performance ones you refer to.
Yes you can do that add shims...etc - but why would you go down that road?
From a rebuild that is something you would only do if you had problems.
Bigger bore = bigger cc rating. Does not mean you can get more power, as it could be slower reving.

scott.mohekey

28-03-2009, 11:35 PM

I understand everything about compression ratio and knocking etc.. I just don't understand how you will be able to use 12:1 compression ration pistons without making some sort of change to either the block or the piston?

Fully

29-03-2009, 05:23 AM

Cause I'm not. Havent worked it out yet.
I will be asking for a custom compression ratio some were between 8:1 - 10:1

Eurospec

29-03-2009, 09:01 PM

Our pistons were made by JE, but its a custom design. Ultimately its the same manufacturer as Rich's ones, but the specs will be different.

The expansion issue isnt with height- its diameter. We want to be sure they wont foul the bores. They shouldnt do, since they are designed not to, but we want to test.

You change the CR by changing the deck height of the piston, therfore enlarging or reducing the total compressed volume.

There are other methods, but if you are doing pistons, its the easiest way. Obviously a longer rod will reduce the amount of volume in the cc at the top of the stroke, but personally i wouldnt do that.

Cheers,

Ben.

Mitsiman

03-04-2009, 06:25 AM

Just found this discussion.

RPW has forged pistons for the 6A13 in both a 8.0 and 8.5 : 1 compression ratio. We use CP Pistons because they don't knock cold and are just as quiet as factory units, but have never had one fail on me yet.

Conrods wise we use an Australian Supplier and they are very strong. But you do have to provide some more clearance on the conrod to bore area's due to the extra thickness of the rods which you need to remain strong.

We are building several 6A13 full forged motors right now for australian customers.

If there were enough orders, we could significiantly drop the price of the piston kits by sheer volume. Conrods woudl be a similiar situation as well.

scott.mohekey

03-04-2009, 07:43 AM

I'm very interested in this.

Goku

03-04-2009, 10:33 AM

What sort of prices are we looking at here ?

orionn2o

03-04-2009, 12:46 PM

sounds very interesting..

Mark 4

03-04-2009, 03:08 PM

Certainly does.

bradc

04-04-2009, 01:08 AM

What about changing to 9.0:1 compression, will the cost change much?

Mitsiman

04-04-2009, 02:03 AM

Changing up to 9.0 : 1 would involve a complete new custom profile made. It can be done if necessary.

I will start getting some updated pricing with rough qauntites and we can go from there.

Turbo_Steve

04-04-2009, 11:04 AM

What about changing to 9.0:1 compression, will the cost change much?
Although this will counter lag, it's going to massively impact how far you can push the engine, even with super-strong rods, you're effectively multiplying the force the rotational components of the engine are under, as well as stuff like the headgasket and valves etc.
Not saying it's a bad idea, but definitely a brave one, especially if you're still considering the garretts.

bradc

04-04-2009, 08:32 PM

New EVO's are all 9:1, even on the FQ360. Quite a few people in the US are running big power and haven't had any big problems with the stock internals. Also remember I have the Autronic so that will allow for full control over everything.

Goku

04-04-2009, 09:55 PM

Yes, but the new evo's are also mivec, which runs a different compression ratio as well.

Mark 4

04-04-2009, 10:00 PM

Yes, but the new evo's are also mivec, which runs a different compression ratio as well.

Yea, think you'll be on your own at 9:1 Brad.

bradc

04-04-2009, 10:14 PM

The older evo's were 8.8 and again they ran high levels of boost and a lot of power came out of them.

Turbo_Steve

04-04-2009, 10:29 PM

Compression ratio was changed with the EVO III....and getting decent power out of the III and IV is much harder than it was on the II. It gets easier with the V, VI onwards, as the internals are much stronger....especially those pesky rods. So I still think it's a brave choice: you're asking more of all the internals, especially the big ends.
That said, it's pretty much just as untested as going with 8.5:1 forged internals. It's just another layer of complication I'd avoid. All the existing stuff we know about boost > power, turbo sizing against spool, headgasket strength, even head-bolt tension may be required to change.
Er....is the 6A13 an alloy block?

bradc

05-04-2009, 07:20 AM

It is an iron block, but with Aluminium heads.

I still reckon forged rods and pistons will handle 9:1 compression fine with 300kw at the wheels :)

chris g

05-04-2009, 08:20 AM

An interesting thread and taking me back to the earlier days of CVR4...

How much can the engine take and what may be the weaknesses...

Just by upping power with no stronger internals whay may break...

Those pesky rods maybe...

The pistons...

Seems to come back to the same components

As then, we need someone, with money or courage or blind enthusiasm to make the jump to higher power, higher comp ration, stonger internals and see what happens...

Nick Mann

05-04-2009, 08:39 AM

What the standard engine will take is still a bit up in the air. There aren't really enough well documented failures to make an informed judgement.

One thing that is fair to say - there is no point considering forged internals if you are not putting bigger turbos on. It *may* also be true that standard internals will take a certain amount of increase in turbos too.

As more people push the boundaries a clearer picture will develop.

Turbo_Steve

05-04-2009, 12:34 PM

I still reckon forged rods and pistons will handle 9:1 compression fine with 300kw at the wheels I expect you're right: but it seems a lot of change for minimal benefit, especially when it's highly likely that the factory internals look like they will do 300kw-atw anyway...which is a LOT cheaper. The only advantage I can see of lowering the comrpession ratio is that it will allow you to make more power with a smaller turbo. But as something like a pair of TD04s will get you to that point anyway, and with little or no compromise on spool.......I can't see the need for the expense.

Now..if you were going for a pair of TD05-20Gs or somthing, then I can totally see the point, especially if you want a looooong powerband. But then at that compression ratio, you're going to be putting a LOT of stress on the rings & lands and rods and bearings etc etc from the uber-high power output you'd get from a pair of 20Gs at 7000rpms.

In fact, I'd be tempted to say that if you're modifying the basic engine profile that extensively, stroking it would give equal or better spool, and better peak power with less stress on the components (especially if you're changing the cams). The difference would be that you're very much tied to the factory rev limit then...possibly even a little lower.

No wrong or right answers here.....only cheapskate ones :D

chris g

05-04-2009, 01:28 PM

As far as 'what is going to break?', which are 'the weakest components?'...

...I am not saying what will fail, only that the questions seem to come back to the same components...

Wodjno

05-04-2009, 01:53 PM

As far as 'what is going to break?', which are 'the weakest components?'...

...I am not saying what will fail, only that the questions seem to come back to the same components...

Oil pump.

chris g

05-04-2009, 05:14 PM

But not many, any, posts contain the phrase...

...if I up the power, more boost, change turbos, re-map, will the oil pump fail?

zentac

05-04-2009, 06:40 PM

heres a novel idea.... (stolen from the evo crowd) what alot are currently doing is a rod conversion but leaving the standard pistons in. The rods are always the weakest link, especially in the VR4 you can do it without taking the engine out of the car, the engine doesnt need running in afterwards (as youve not touched the pistons or rings) and it then good for upto 500bhp.

bradc

05-04-2009, 08:16 PM

The rod replacement sounds good, the stock rods are quite small and don't inspire much confidence, whereas the pistons shouldn't really have any problems as long as you have a good tune with no knocking.

Steve - you know I want gt2554r's, none of those journal bearing things :)

Turbo_Steve

05-04-2009, 08:33 PM

LOL....Misread that initally and was thinking "How do you get the gudgeon pin out when the pistons are still in there......"..ha ha...red faced.

Is there room to get the std pistons past the crank, or does it need to be dropped (with all the fun timing issues that entails).

Q: Do we have a thread / article detailing failures? I know it doesn't really mean much, as you don't know how the engine in question was treated, however it could prove helpful?

Turbo_Steve

05-04-2009, 08:39 PM

The rod replacement sounds good, the stock rods are quite small and don't inspire much confidence,
Seems pretty normal for Mitsubishi: suspect they're trying to keep the rotating mass down.

whereas the pistons shouldn't really have any problems as long as you have a good tune with no knocking.
As long as the ringlands hold up to it :D

Steve - you know I want gt2554r's, none of those journal bearing things

Oh yes.....yes indeed...yes PLEASE :D The very reason they are so good is the early spool and eventual top end....why go changing the compression ratio for such a good (and expensive) turbo?

bradc

05-04-2009, 08:41 PM

When I pulled my spare engine apart I struggled for a while and ended up taking the crank off, then pushing the rods and pistons out the top. I'm fairly sure it is impossible to get the pistons out from the bottom.

Goku

06-04-2009, 07:02 AM

yep it is :D

Eurospec

06-04-2009, 11:47 AM

Indeed, the appature at the bottom of the bore is smaller (by lots) than the piston, so they have to come out from the top.

The evo and vr4 (etc) share the same design of gudgeon pin, in that its a very tight interfearance fit on the piston. It takes a lot of force to press one out.

Aftermarket rods are designed for floating gudgeon pins.

So when the evo boys do it you remove the stock pistons and have them machined to accept floating pins and retainers and then fit aftermarket rods.

We've never done a set, but if you search on the mlr you will find one or two nasty stories about the spiralocks coming out. (Device that holds the floating pin in the piston).

Given that you have to take the pistons out, and machine them, i tend to recommend forged while you are in there, but like rich says the big advantage of rods alone is no boring/ring work etc is required.

Cheers,

Ben.

zentac

06-04-2009, 11:52 AM

Ive only heard of it being done on the later evo's, not heard about those problems with the earlier ones.

Eurospec

06-04-2009, 12:47 PM

As far as i know they are all the same- certainly up to 6 its interfearance fit, as is 6A12, 6A13, 6G72, 4G64, 6G74 etc.

I dont have a 7 in bits to check, but i have a 3, a 4, a 5 and a 6 here and they are all interfearance.

Cheers,

Ben.

Turbo_Steve

06-04-2009, 03:49 PM

Got some 8 pistons sat on my desk: they're interference too.
And the rings are bent where I just dropped it....grr....

phosty

06-04-2009, 04:10 PM

Some good pictures of Spiral Locks here (http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0801_piston_pin_tool/index.html).

Oblivion

10-04-2009, 03:39 AM

Oil pump.

Are oil pumps rated like fuel pumps (in L per hour), and are there any possible upgrades?

djb160

10-04-2009, 04:09 AM

I think you'd have to upgrade most if not all of the oil lines as well to really benefit from an upgraded oil pump. AFAIK, I could be wrong though.

scott.mohekey

10-04-2009, 04:22 AM

The stock oil pump is driven by the crank shaft and forms the front end of the block. I've been looking into dry sump pumps and I think you'd need to leave the stock pump there, but bypass it somehow. From memory it looks like there is a blocked off hole near where the oil pressure/temp sensor is that could be used. I'm not really sure, mostly just speculating.

Turbo_Steve

10-04-2009, 03:46 PM

Have we established that oil starvation is a serious problem, though?
I've seen cars run 300% of the standard power, and other than an oil cooler have had no additional lubrication system mods, other than a GTS-T liner that needed a baffled sump, primarily because he was drifting it and the sudden changes of direction were potentially an issue.

scott.mohekey

10-04-2009, 09:54 PM

I remember someone on here destroying an engine because of an oil pressure issue. I don't remember who or if it would have been saved with some uprated oil management.

Mitsiman

11-04-2009, 02:13 AM

Quite honestly, there woudl never be a need to run a better pump on the mitsi engine. It already in many ways, has more flow and volume than what the engine is utilising,with many aftermarket turbo's requiring restrictors in flow to stop oil issues.

When we rebuild these motors, the only thing they really need is new gears because mitsubishi made the clearances very loose, and as they wear, they can become noisy.

Eurospec

11-04-2009, 10:41 AM

There have been a few guys on here- wayne for one- who have had engines go from oil starvation, although iirc a track day may have been involved.

The stock pumps seem okay, but the gears do crack at high rpm (8000+) due i think to the crappy clearances that mitsuman mentioned.

Most aftermarket pumps simply have the relief valve shimmed- this does nothing for oil flow rate or pressure except that it stops the relief valve opening so soon which it never does anyway except on cold start when the pressure is really high.

I have known FTOs and GTOs starve of oil on hard cornering at high rpm, but if you are woried about this a baffled sump helps, or an oil accumulator to deliver pressurised oil to the main gallery if pressure drops.

Cheers,

Ben.

Turbo_Steve

11-04-2009, 12:38 PM

Never used an accumulator: have you used them, ben? Are they any good...more importantly are they significantly better than the baffled sump in a road car with occasional track use? Most of the kits I've seen are a lot of effort to fit (involve tapping the block) and aren't cheap!

Eurospec

11-04-2009, 05:50 PM

Yeah, ive used a moroso accumulator. I'm into drag rather than circuits (the clothes obviously!) so a baffled sump wasnt really something i considered. On circuits the concern being that the oil slops to one side under hard cornering and away from the pick up. For me the oil just slops back, so its not AS bad. I have to admit it was one of my moments of paranoia that comes from drinking too much redbull and smoking too many fags! I thought OMFG what if all the oil slops out of the way of the strainer on a hard launch- i know i'll by this massive big mofo of a thing which weighs about a ton and use it. Then i thought- ah, hang on, this is heavy. Heavy = slow. Take it off!

On cars like a galant it makes it easy if you use an oil filter relocation kit, or an external cooler. You just T one of the lines and go in there. The pump will work like a 1 way valve and the pressure is discharged into the main journals as you would want.

You dont get long out of them- 8-10 secs maybe out of the big ones. You can use them for pre lubing the engine before you crank if you shut it off with the engine running. I've been trying to work out a way to charge one up with clean engine oil to pre lube new builds but i havent managed it yet.

I mostly do it with my own car when i take it apart- fit T, charge up accumulator, turn off valve, turn off car, take out engine, fit biggest turbos possible, get acro prop and push bulkhead back to fit engine back in, refit accumulator and pre lube.

Theory is good for oil starvation though, but the supply is limited and WIGIG.

Cheers,

Ben.

Turbo_Steve

12-04-2009, 12:14 AM

I don't think I can rep you for that as I am not a member again...but thank you for sharing your personal experience: very useful. Also, thanks for the single sentence tuning plan :D

scott.mohekey

12-04-2009, 12:28 AM

Wouldn't a dry sump setup achieve the same goal fulltime?

Turbo_Steve

12-04-2009, 09:52 PM

Pretty much...but it's a substantially more complicated modification.

Mitsiman

13-04-2009, 10:05 AM

The problems you are describing then is not an oil pump issue. An upgraded oil pump would be of little benefit. What you are really after is a better sump pan with baffling to stop oil surging especially on corners. Also for those running high boost 18 psi +, crankcase breathing is also very important and an upgrade to larger diameter hosing woudl reap large benefits.

Mitsiman

14-04-2009, 06:44 AM

Back onto the origonal discussion - forged conrods and pistons. I have spoken with my conrod manafacturer, and can make conrods in batches at significant discounts. On the conrods, we need to make five batches at a time. We are looking at approximatly $750.00 AUD$ for a complete set of forged steel conrods for the 6A13 motor.

Delivery time is approx 2 months and deposits would need ot be paid in advance. My plan would be to get 7 - 10 units made at once. The idea being that at least 5 of them are pre sold

I am working on pistons next. Who's interested so far?

Fully

14-04-2009, 06:56 AM

That is a good price!
Would they be the same lengh as the factory ones?

Mark 4

14-04-2009, 07:21 AM

I'm very interested at that price.

scott.mohekey

14-04-2009, 07:24 AM

I'd certainly be interested at that price.

Goku

14-04-2009, 10:39 AM

Same here...... *checks bank balance* I think

Mitsiman

15-04-2009, 02:17 AM

They would be the exact same length as the factor ones yes. They are thicker though so you will probably need to provide some clearance on tbe bottem of the bore of the engine block for more clearance. Nothing 1/2 hour and a small die grinder won't fix due to the very close factory tolerances.

As said, we cna make these but I would need minimun of 5 confirmed orders and deposits up front. If we were to get over 10 orders the price would be cheaper again by around another $50.00 AUD$.

Start a list of those prepared to put money down right now and lets see if we can get this moving.

scott.mohekey

15-04-2009, 02:34 AM

How much would a deposit be, and how soon after would the remainder need to be paid? Also, we need an idea of piston cost before we can commit.

orionn2o

15-04-2009, 09:09 AM

I am interested by the idea, but like smohekey would also want to know what the piston cost would be.

rees

25-04-2009, 04:10 PM

just for those who arent engine ninjas....like me

whats needed / involved to have a fully forged / reinforced engine?

conrods
pistons
arp studs
and the various little bits and bolts that hold the whole lot together

am i missing anything?
what about the crank?

just so i know if this is even worth looking at price wise or shal i just dream on:)
i mean , we all know that kevin ap has put his life into his car (and i salue him for it)

but some times i feel like giving up with these cars as im always put off by the money you'd have to throw at your car just to get the same result/bhp~whp figures as someone with a beefed evo/skyline could get at half the cost and effort with proven massproduced (therefore easy to find )and warranted parts ?

AlanDITD

25-04-2009, 04:16 PM

700dollars is about 340quid, thats not bad at all for Six rods i paid about 250 for four eagle H-beams a few years ago for the prelude.

I would be interested but it all depends on the price of the pistons.

Why does the pound have to be so crap right now grrrr

Turbo_Steve

25-04-2009, 09:19 PM

Also need to budget for a decent headgasket, and unless the pistons come with them you need to budget for new rings too. Crank should be good for silly bhp.

AlanDITD

25-04-2009, 09:32 PM

Do ARP do a kit for the VR4? head studs and rod bolts?

orionn2o

26-04-2009, 12:01 AM

I know gowf has arp head bolts so I'd say yes :)

Nutter_John

26-04-2009, 12:04 AM

You don't need a kit as such , just provide ARP with the details and they will match them

zentac

26-04-2009, 08:12 AM

Also need to budget for a decent headgasket, and unless the pistons come with them you need to budget for new rings too. Crank should be good for silly bhp.

Standard head gasket is good for at least 500, Ive just had some made up by a couple of companies we are trialing at the moment.

zentac

26-04-2009, 08:13 AM

Do ARP do a kit for the VR4? head studs and rod bolts?

yes, they are not listed, they are for a different model (cant remember which off top of my head) but yes you can get them I have them.

rees

26-04-2009, 10:32 AM

just lookin at zentacs profile , 500 +bhp using the 6a13tt , and we cant manage it ??

Turbo_Steve

26-04-2009, 10:53 AM

Standard head gasket is good for at least 500

Wow, I'm amazed it held up!

I'd still want to put on a heavy duty one: it's a complete PITA to change, and if I was doing all the engine work, I'd rather fit one that I could forget about, at least on a daily driver. HG going can be a comlpete pain in the neck (especially when it manages to pump all your coolant into the oil system). So it'd be a "peace of mind" mod. Much the same as I suspect the ARP stuff is.

zentac

26-04-2009, 04:51 PM

the problem is people dont make them, I wanted a 1.2mm MLS (multi layered steel) HG but no one makes an after market one, and no one is willing to make a small/limited run of them So Ive had to go to a composite material, but its all new ground and we are not sure how they will hold.

zentac

26-04-2009, 04:53 PM

just lookin at zentacs profile , 500 +bhp using the 6a13tt , and we cant manage it ??

Its only single turbo these days....and how do you mean "we cant manage it?"

Im off to a chassis dyno next week, so it should be a few more :)

rees

26-04-2009, 07:07 PM

Its only single turbo these days....and how do you mean "we cant manage it?"

Im off to a chassis dyno next week, so it should be a few more :)

we as in cvr4 owners

or is it just me whos interested in releasing these cars true potential ?

like i said ealier in this thread, kevin at ap motors is one of the very few to break 500

and i darent think how much it cost him , thisthen leads back to the twin or single turbo setup

but valmes did 2 td05's

just thinkin aloud

elnevio

26-04-2009, 07:12 PM

cost
There you go.

Anything is possible with enough cash.

The 6A13TT needs MAJOR modification to bust 400 bhp. And MAJOR=££££.

There are more common engines around with cheaper upgrade options as a result, such as those found in the Skyline.

AlanDITD

26-04-2009, 07:13 PM

well owning a turboed car doesnt nec mean you want to ring the living daylights scrapping for every last HP etc.

I for one would love to but the cost are astounding. I think once it becomes public knowledge, how to map the standard ECU things may move on. But your talking alot of money to make over 350hp, which tbh is probably enough for everyday driving.

If i had a spare 5k i know where it would go, pying off my loan ;)

rees

26-04-2009, 07:26 PM

yeah i know , im trapsing over old ground , just thinkin today , " do i start tuning or just save my money and buy a pretuned / beefy car "

but yeah i know im answering my own questions with this so ill shuttup now for a while and waut for someone to come along and quote piston prices...

{ok mistsiman.... ..... ...GO! :)

Louis

26-04-2009, 08:16 PM

CVR4 started in early 2003, I joined mid 2004 and Richard, Zentac was already here with a standard 6A13tt in his fto, he has done a lot since then and I always think of him as a mainstay of CVR4.
I know rees means "us" as in actual galant/legnum's but a fair bit of info on the engine and more has come from Richard.
You can do bits to the rest of the car, but the engine IS the power plant and that's what Richard has!, albeit he is putting the power down using front wheel drive!!.
As far as internals are concerned, forged rods and pistons are always going to be better than standar, but WHEN you have to take it to that stage is the question.

["The 6A13TT needs MAJOR modification to bust 400 bhp. And MAJOR=££££."]

As mentioned Valmes is running a piggy back and 2 td05's, on standard internals, ( and doing a lot of miles as a daily driver)
Working with these cars is not as straight forward as supras, skylines, evos, where you can buy everything you need off the shelf, ask questions on a forum for the best way to get 500bhp and then go and buy the bits and have it tuned.
There is a lot more info on the engine and the cars and more parts available now than there was in 2004 and more info is coming through all the time, things that were stated as impossible, or unavailable are now possible and available, now there are different sources for forged pistons and rods and different profile cams, so it's all getting there if you want it, but if anyone wants a quick 500bhp they need another car.
I am sure in the next year or two there will be a lot more 6a13tt's running high figures.

I think over the years there has been various statements like "this isn't possible, ever!", based on!!, nothing, and " this will kill your engine", when nothing has ever happened. In this thread the oil pump was mentioned and it all gets carried away?. The problem is it is still relatively early days, not enough people have broken things due to power.
Just my 2c

Valmes info when he was on td04's:
Parking lot 0-100 kph (0-62mph) tests(#1).. ;) Average: 4,7-4,9 sec Best: 4,48 sec PS: 2xTD04L-13T, 6x530cc, e-manage Ultimate, Exedy twin plate M/C clutch. 1 bar.

A o - 62mph @ 4.48 sec at 1bar, is pretty powerful, even though his car hasn't been dyno'd yet, and he is now on td05's, (not forged )

Turbo_Steve

26-04-2009, 09:53 PM

this thread the oil pump was mentioned and it all gets carried away?

Er...I don't think it was carried away. It was a reasonable discussion between intelligent and knowledgeable people that reached an informative conclusion. Okay, so we don't all agree, and we don't know 100% that it came to the right conclusion....but the most likely outcome was reached, if you see what I mean.

The only two ways to get to big power first are "destruction testing" and prior knowledge. Information on how other engines and cars behave is relevant (look at the Evo with the INVECS2 gearbox running big power) as is the oil pump discussion and countless others.

And let's not forget that just because one person can get to a certain point on standard internals, it doesn't mean we all can: Mitsubishi build huge tolerances into these engines because things like metallurgy, casting and forging are not exact sciences, and frankly no two engines will be the same. It's a probability curve, and until people can afford to destroy engines, we won't be able to determine at which point the odds of failure significantly increase. The same is going on with the Evos: a couple of years ago, 400bhp on standard internals was lunacy, now it's relatively commonplace.
The problem is that curve: as you increase the power, or more specifically the torque, the tendancy for failure tends towards 100%. The issue is that it IS a curve....it starts shallow and gradually increases, suddenly getting a lot steeper past a certain point.

Then to complicate things further, you have to take into account driving style, transmission, fuel quality, servicing, is everyone using the same lubricants, age of components, fuel pressure, competance of regulator and a million other things.

A good example is Zentacs car. It's an awesome piece of machinery. If it was on standard internals, we'd all be trying for the same output power: but let's not forget it's 2WD isn't it? So the engines stresses from the transmission (i.e. coming off the line) are much much lower - inertial torque is massively reduced as it can simply spin up the wheels. Or maybe not if it's on a monster pair of hoosiers or similar. My point is that just because one person can achieve it, it isn't a "Line in the sand" that we can all cross / hope to cross etc.

By the same token, a few expensive sacrifices are going to be needed to find that magic midpoint. Valmes has taken a huge risk...maybe less because he knew something we didn't, but a risk nonetheless...and it came off for him and we've all learnt from it: the internals are much stronger than we first believed. It's pointless getting too frustrated, though.

Louis

27-04-2009, 12:49 AM

I agree with all above.

"My point is that just because one person can achieve it, it isn't a "Line in the sand" that we can all cross / hope to cross etc."

This is my point in reverse!, there are so many variables.
IF there was a case of ONE engine failure due to the oil pump, that would not mean that the oil pumps in these engines were no good over a certain bhp, it could be that one specific pump.
As said until there are more high bhp failures of engines then we don't know where the weaknesses will be, (and Mitsy build in safe tolerences and over
engineer parts to cope), And no one wants to self destruct their engine to check where it goes first, so going forged as a preventitive measure is fair enough, but hard to tell when you need to.
"Carried away" was maybe the wrong term to use, it IS a good discussion and the more we all find out the better, but I notice an element of this "will break at this bhp and the most you can go is..." But when you ask what the info is based on no one knows and there is no proof to back up the statement!.
A discussion on oil pumps is good, But who has had an oil pump failure??, I have never heard of one?.
Anyhoo, enough of the thread hijack! lets hear more about forged rods, pistons, and how much the 272 deg cams are going to be?

Turbo_Steve

27-04-2009, 03:25 PM

I guess part of the problem is that we're all too sensible, and don't want to risk it. Or all too rich? :D

Wodjno

27-04-2009, 04:03 PM

So what Damn Fool? Mentioned the Oil Pump /Hmmm

scientist

27-04-2009, 04:16 PM

My take on the whole matter, Before the Evo hit the US market, it was deemed that 400whp on standard internals was impossible on a 4G63. Although the first two generation of eclipses were achieving more on standard internals.

I would surely like to see a few more companies getting involved and creating parts, but more members on here would need to be interested in modifying their cars. The difference between us and the Evo/Skyline etc owners.....They drive the market to create parts for their cars. So far I've noticed its only a handful of the VR4 owners on this board who are interested in making their cars faster

Louis

27-04-2009, 06:35 PM

So what Damn Fool? Mentioned the Oil Pump /Hmmm

lol!, nothing personal!, just used as an example.

How about we buy a club car and get together, have a day out, stick some sensors on it, attach it to a laptop with evoscan on it, and thrash it to death (in a controlled manner??), and post up the findings, lol!

rees

29-04-2009, 01:41 PM

bump mofo's

i aint lettin this thread go cold!

Mark 4

29-04-2009, 07:28 PM

bump mofo's

i aint lettin this thread go cold!

Good onya !

scientist

30-04-2009, 01:44 AM

So when are we organising a group buy on pistons and rods?

Also...we need a company to step up to make some manifolds to fit other turbos

Adam.Findlay

01-05-2009, 04:57 AM

I have read This entire thread but still cant really make sense of how much it is going to cost for a full forged job of a 6a13tt. Pistons, Rods, Rings, Studs, big end bearings, and a crank regrind to fit the new bearings. does anyone have a rough idea of how much this would cost all up in NZD. and im a tad unsure about when reboring is involved, is this required when fitting new pistons.
Please help im hungry for HP

Fully

01-05-2009, 07:42 AM

Thats like asking how long is a piece of string!
Don't expect much change out of $20k!

If you going to get someone else to do it add another pile of cash as well.

Depends how far you want to go.
There is a lot of work that will need doing. New pistons you would need to rehone the bores.
All the new studs, port and polish(but not the intake that I am going to put a thread with a 20 pitch, down to a 16 pitch), bigger turbos....the list goes on and on.
The crank, the only thing I would do to that is rebalance it.

scientist

01-05-2009, 04:47 PM

Turbo_Steve

01-05-2009, 11:27 PM

Don't need to rebore unless you're going for bigger displacement. Definitely need to hone, though.

Anyone got any advice for a good set of rings? (not just for this, but any car?)

Nutter_John

01-05-2009, 11:30 PM

Yep ones that fit are a good start Steve :P

AlanDITD

01-05-2009, 11:37 PM

Would balancing the crank not potlentially take strenght from it? And if theres no damage and your using standard Size bearings then why would you need to do that?

How much are we looking at for pistons and rods? HOw the come the pistons dont come supplied wih rings, Seems a bit pointless to have one without the other.

Fully

01-05-2009, 11:47 PM

Don't need to rebore unless you're going for bigger displacement. Definitely need to hone, though.

Anyone got any advice for a good set of rings? (not just for this, but any car?)

I would try
Johnson Piston & Hydraulic Rings, I think they trade under the name of franklin Engineering.

They just refitted our V20 disel, and they did a very nice job of it. This powers one of the snow makers.

Turbo_Steve

02-05-2009, 03:38 AM

You shouldn't need to regrind the crank. Just replace with standard sized bearings.
You should budget for some correction, though: you never know how much wear you're going to see, and what pattern it's in. I broadly agree, though, that it SHOULD be a straight swap. Just trying to manage peoples expectations re: budget, as they say in the office.

Would balancing the crank not potlentially take strenght from it? And if theres no damage and your using standard Size bearings then why would you need to do that
Not really: You normally take bits of metal that aren't integral to the cranks structure. And the damn thing is massive, heavy and strong anyway, so the metal you lose doesn't make much difference. I've only every seen one crank break due to out-and-out bhp, and that was in a highly tuned tractor making about 3000lbft of torque out of something stupid like a 2.0Litre diesel engine.
The whole engine was wrapped in steel straps to try and keep the head on. I think it was actually a bearing that failed rather than the crank itself, but it had a scoremark that had obviously led to cracks, which led to a crunch and a gift for the local scrap-metal man.

Yep ones that fit are a good start Steve
See, it's the quality tuning advice like that that makes the membership fee worth every penny :D :iloveyou:

Johnson Piston & Hydraulic Rings
Thank you muchly! Will see how much they cost....