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View Full Version : TD04 13T's & Apexi AVC-R settings...help !



EdmundVR4
02-06-2007, 09:04 PM
I just got my EC5A VR4 back from the shop & I now have installed 2 TD04 13T Turbos (from USDM WRX). I need some help with setting the Apexi AVC-R boost controller.
It was set up pretty good for the original turbos, but those settings aren't working out too well with the 13T's. I've been fiddling with the BC & boost response has improved but I still think I am far from realizing the potential of these 13T's. As anyone with an Apexi AVC-R boost controller would know, there are lots of adjustments & it is quite complicated.
HELP !

Here are my modifications :
2 X TD04 13T's
2.5" mandrel bent downpipe into 3" pipe, no cats.
Apexi ATS Active Tail Silencer
Walbro 255 lph fuel pump
Vortech Fuel Pressure Regulator
Field SFC Hyper R Fuel Controller
PLX Wideband
Autometer EGT
Apexi AVC-R boost controller
ACT Clutch & Pressure Plate (Evo 8)
Stock Injectors (550cc injectors will be installed later on)
Cooling Mist Water Injection
Fuel here is supposedly 95 RON.

I hope Valmes chimes in as I don't know anyone else with 13T's & Apexi AVC-R & similar mods. (maybe bradc also?)
I would appreciate your help, guys.
Thanks,
Edmund
If someone could suggest settings to start with, that would be great.

bradc
02-06-2007, 09:52 PM
Nahh I've still got stock turbos sorry. Sounds like you've got a nice setup, care to put up any pics?

EdmundVR4
02-06-2007, 10:00 PM
No digi-cam here, do you know anyone else with 13T's & AVC-R ?
Thanks.

valmes
03-06-2007, 05:30 AM
??? :) Can you explain what the problem is?

... OFF is for normal 0,65 bar driving...
... A is set to 0,9 bar ...
... B is set to 1,2 bar ...

I don't recall what numbers I had for each... but I just had to go on the road and make a few passes.

PS: You didn't explain the root of the problem... doesn't get on boost? spikes? no power? may be it's not AVC-R originated?

EdmundVR4
03-06-2007, 02:20 PM
Thanks for replying Valmes.
I have set duty cycle to 63% with my target boost set to .95 & I am not achieving the target boost. I am now seeing peak boost of .85. At first, I was seeing less boost.... .65. Maybe the AVC-R is learning the new turbos.

To me, it feels like too much lag & too slow to build boost, compared to the original turbo's & even my 7G VR4 6G72 3.0 with 15G's (they boost faster & feel a lot more powerful)

I have checked for boost leaks & everything seems good. So, I think the AVC-R needs more tuning.
Do you use the following features on your AVC-R ?
NE Point, F/B Speed, Learn Gear, ?

Thanks for your advice.
Edmund

EdmundVR4
03-06-2007, 04:09 PM
^^^^ Update...drove it a little while ago & it seems to be boosting a bit faster & attaining target boost. Perhaps, the AVC-R is learning the new set up. I still miss the instant boost of the stock turbos' but these 13T's are feeling better at higher RPM's.
Still need to dial in ideal settings on the BC.

bradc
03-06-2007, 09:30 PM
When does the boost start to build? Wouldn't it be an option to delete all the settings in the AVC-R and start again?

AllBeItMine
04-06-2007, 12:29 AM
you're probably going to get **** results unless you do something about the fueling. the stock fueling is mapped to airflow at rpm that is now completely different with your new turbos.

get yourself an SAFC to go along with the AVC-R and you will be rocking.

EdmundVR4
04-06-2007, 12:42 PM
When does the boost start to build? Wouldn't it be an option to delete all the settings in the AVC-R and start again?

bradc, Basically, I have reset the old settings & have been adjusting the "basic settings", which are duty cycle & target boost. At present, it is working much better. I've been so accustomed to the instant boost of the TD03's that these turbos' seem "laggy".

AllBeItMine, I do have a Field SFC Hyper R Fuel Controller, Walbro Fuel Pump & Vortech Fuel Pressure Regulator.
Thanks guys for the input.

valmes
04-06-2007, 02:14 PM
bradc, Basically, I have reset the old settings & have been adjusting the "basic settings", which are duty cycle & target boost. At present, it is working much better. I've been so accustomed to the instant boost of the TD03's that these turbos' seem "laggy".

AllBeItMine, I do have a Field SFC Hyper R Fuel Controller, Walbro Fuel Pump & Vortech Fuel Pressure Regulator.
Thanks guys for the input.

Are you sure everything else is ok? Wastegate actuators are pre-loaded, right?

EdmundVR4
04-06-2007, 03:40 PM
Wastegates were tested to start opening at 12psi.
It is boosting quicker than when I started the thread & getting up to .95 kg/cm, no problem.
Valmes, did you find a big difference in spool time between the stockers & the 13T's ?
Looking at your thread http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21352 it seems the stockers spool much faster.
Your thoughts on spool time on stock vs 13T's would be appreciated.

Nutter_John
04-06-2007, 03:55 PM
Stock can spool very early , I have had 0.8 bar by 2400rpm on stock turbos

Not sure about the 13T's but they will probably be spooling by around 3000 and make full boost by 4-4500 rpm . Have a look at the map provide on the turbos and you should be able to guestimate the info on spool up

Kenneth
04-06-2007, 10:43 PM
you're probably going to get **** results unless you do something about the fueling. the stock fueling is mapped to airflow at rpm that is now completely different with your new turbos.

get yourself an SAFC to go along with the AVC-R and you will be rocking.

Not really, the air flow sensor measures air flow, all the ECU does is convert the signal to the amount of air (grams/second, which is know for each sensor) and then delivers the correct fuel to get the desired AFR. Pretty basic really, which is why most cars use Air Flow Meters rather than map sensors these days.

The problem comes when you meet the ECUs programmed safety point, or peg the sensor. (get it to maximum reading)

AllBeItMine
05-06-2007, 06:27 AM
Not really, the air flow sensor measures air flow, all the ECU does is convert the signal to the amount of air (grams/second, which is know for each sensor) and then delivers the correct fuel to get the desired AFR. Pretty basic really, which is why most cars use Air Flow Meters rather than map sensors these days.

cool. So it doesn't pay any attention at all to ambient temperature, water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, engine rpm cam and crank angle sensors, boost or knock. And it wouldn't adjust ignition or fueling based on anything else other than mass air flow?

cool. That makes tuning a car sooo simple. Edmund - as Kenneth suggests - just unplug everything from the ECU other than AFM and you should be fine /pan

Kenneth
05-06-2007, 11:51 PM
cool. So it doesn't pay any attention at all to ambient temperature, water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, engine rpm cam and crank angle sensors, boost or knock. And it wouldn't adjust ignition or fueling based on anything else other than mass air flow?

cool. That makes tuning a car sooo simple. Edmund - as Kenneth suggests - just unplug everything from the ECU other than AFM and you should be fine /pan

I did not suggest that at all.

The ambient air temp and baro are taken from the AFM. I don't think you will find that the cam and crank angle are used for calculating fuel. Yes RPM is taken into account, as it needs to cross references RPM to work out how much fuel is consumed each revolution.

My point (which you seemed to have missed in your hurry to be sarcastic) is that the ECU doesn't get all wound up and start pumping the wrong amount of fuel in just because you change the turbos. If this is the case, you have another issue.
(such as a cold air intake that is stuffing up the MAF readings, such as what you had Andrew, and then sold to OSiRiS who inherited the problems and got a whopping 130KW ATW on the dyno.)

EdmundVR4
07-06-2007, 04:30 PM
Calling Valmes, calling Valmes...come in Valmes !
I'm very interested in your thoughts on before & after 13T's...care to comment ?
My car is getting up to boost (1kg/cm) no problem, it's just taking to long. Stockers & my 13T's are like day & night.

BTW, can any one let me know how to use one of my signature pics as my avatar ?
I tried, can't get it done

valmes
07-06-2007, 08:00 PM
Calling Valmes, calling Valmes...come in Valmes !
I'm very interested in your thoughts on before & after 13T's...care to comment ?
My car is getting up to boost (1kg/cm) no problem, it's just taking to long. Stockers & my 13T's are like day & night.

BTW, can any one let me know how to use one of my signature pics as my avatar ?
I tried, can't get it done

Edmund?

My turbos WERE coming on quite fast... Not as fast as stockers, but not anything that would bother me... but up the revs they were day and night compared to stock turbos! The car just blasted off like crazy... :evilgrin:

EdmundVR4
08-06-2007, 12:33 AM
Thanks Valmes.
My 13T's are boosting quicker as time goes by...I have been fine tuning the AVC-R & it's responding better.

AllBeItMine
08-06-2007, 09:18 AM
I did not suggest that at all.

The ambient air temp and baro are taken from the AFM. I don't think you will find that the cam and crank angle are used for calculating fuel. Yes RPM is taken into account, as it needs to cross references RPM to work out how much fuel is consumed each revolution.

My point (which you seemed to have missed in your hurry to be sarcastic) is that the ECU doesn't get all wound up and start pumping the wrong amount of fuel in just because you change the turbos. If this is the case, you have another issue.
(such as a cold air intake that is stuffing up the MAF readings, such as what you had Andrew, and then sold to OSiRiS who inherited the problems and got a whopping 130KW ATW on the dyno.)

firstly re-read your posts again dude. i didn't miss your point - i corrected your point.

i said: the stock fueling is mapped to airflow at rpm
you said: no, all the ECU does is convert the signal to the amount of air and then delivers the correct fuel.
i said: haha - your joking aren't you?
you said: oh wait - yes RPM is taken into account - i was wrong. sorry andrew

secondly - orisis car was so full of home tuned bollocks who knows what was going on. he was installing a different computer controlled gadget into that car every week. if a heat sheild drops a car's output by 20kw then most of the modified cars in the world would be suffering the same problem.

handbags at noon?

ako
08-06-2007, 09:29 AM
firstly re-read your posts again dude. i didn't miss your point - i corrected your point.

i said: the stock fueling is mapped to airflow at rpm
you said: no, all the ECU does is convert the signal to the amount of air and then delivers the correct fuel.
i said: haha - your joking aren't you?
you said: oh wait - yes RPM is taken into account - i was wrong. sorry andrew

secondly - orisis car was so full of home tuned bollocks who knows what was going on. he was installing a different computer controlled gadget into that car every week. if a heat sheild drops a car's output by 20kw then most of the modified cars in the world would be suffering the same problem.

handbags at noon?

The world needs more andys

He's right - the ECU will pack a bit of a wobbly when you have turbos coming on boost later and more air up top. Some subarus even throw a fault code if they dont see enough airflow after a certain time of X throttle position at X revs.

I have my car (hopefully not for much longer! its going to auckland) on stock ECU still. With factory turbos it went like this at full noise: Rich, Really rich, stupid rich, then sliiiightly leaner up top where the thing couldn't provide any more fuel.

Now with the single turbo, it goes stupid rich and bogs a bit, then goes lean for an instant as it ramps up on boost, before going pig rich again to try compensate up top. There's probably a good 60 - 80hp hiding in there from tuning and if I could run more than 12psi /Grrr

Kieran
08-06-2007, 08:35 PM
i said: the stock fueling is mapped to airflow at rpm
you said: no, all the ECU does is convert the signal to the amount of air and then delivers the correct fuel.
i said: haha - your joking aren't you?
you said: oh wait - yes RPM is taken into account - i was wrong. sorry andrew


Do you seriously believe that's how the exchange between yourself and Ken reads?!:inquisiti

Kenneth
08-06-2007, 11:54 PM
Do you seriously believe that's how the exchange between yourself and Ken reads?!:inquisiti

too busy defending his assertion to read it properly I guess.


Have you looked at the dissasembly of the ECU maps? With your comments I suspect not.

The map has RPM along one axis, Load across the other. The cells are then filled in with the desired AFR.

So, the ECU calculates load, cross references RPM and then has the target AFR. The ECU then goes and looks at the MAF reading to see how much air has passed the sensor and uses that value to calculate how much fuel is needed to attain the target AFR. Quite a nice system is it not?

So, there is no airflow at rpm mapping only target AFR at RPM + Load.
If you have excessive fueling issues after changing turbos, I still suggest there is something causing one of the sensors to be inaccurate. The most likely is the MAF sensor it it is very tempremental to shape of the air flow.

AllBeItMine
10-06-2007, 07:37 AM
The map has RPM along one axis, Load across the other. The cells are then filled in with the desired AFR.



oooh - so the ecu maps Airflow at RPM?

how about that...

not sure why we are arguing this is what i said at the beginning?

i dont care how many ecu's you've taken apart. learn how to explain things better on a forum else somebody who's listening to you may blow up there car ;-)

you still sure you dont want to go handbag route?

an no - the world dont need more of me - i am a complete ****

Kenneth
10-06-2007, 10:30 PM
oooh - so the ecu maps Airflow at RPM?

how about that...

not sure why we are arguing this is what i said at the beginning?

i dont care how many ecu's you've taken apart. learn how to explain things better on a forum else somebody who's listening to you may blow up there car ;-)

you still sure you dont want to go handbag route?

an no - the world dont need more of me - i am a complete ****

Unlike you it seems, I don't own a handbag! lol

Where is the airflow part of the mapping then? Since you can obviously see something I do not.




i dont care how many ecu's you've taken apart. learn how to explain things better on a forum else somebody who's listening to you may blow up there car ;-)


funny that, I was going to say something similar to you. So, you use your AFC to wind out all the excess air flow that the sensor is seeing due to incorrect operation and then at some point, the sensor gets a correct reading and you end up with a dead engine.

but hey, I really don't care if you blow your engine up.

Kenneth
10-06-2007, 11:14 PM
This isn't getting anywhere.

lets agree that the ECU works out how much fuel to give the engine using RPM load and the MAF signal.

My argument is that using these parameters with upgraded turbos, the ECU should still be able to work out the correct fuel to get the target AFR.

The inherent problem is that most people also screw with the standard air intake (airbox etc) and this is a major cause of incorrect MAF sensor readings.

I believe that if you did the turbo mods and used the standard airbox, you would find the ECU actually get pretty good AFR figures.

d i c k i e s
11-06-2007, 05:36 AM
JERRY JERRY JERRY!!! /catfight

must say this is intresting info. learning something everday!

Eurospec
11-06-2007, 01:26 PM
Whoa! I was gonna post on this the other day and then i didnt get round to it. I was going to ask about your avcr settings prior to the turbo swap.

All things being equal, assuming the car is able to spool the 13T's (ie there is no issues with either turbo or install) then you should achieve the same levels of boost with much lower duty cycles, however, you might need to adjust the gain. Its going to be a balancing act to bring the turbos in fast enough (will take more than the td03's did) but not so much as it spikes.

Bottom line i would expect the boost to come on slower but for there to be much more of it available AND for the power output at a given boost level to be higher.

If it helps any on the fuel debate, here is my 2p.

The maps inside the standard ECU are indeed RPM on one axis and load on the other, with afr values at each point.

The ECU calculates load by doing loads of stuff, but the primary input (not the only one by any stretch) into that calculation is in the case of a kvf car, the mass of air coming in through the intake.

The ECU sees this by using the maf which measures the temperature, pressure and volume of the incoming air.

It then 'knows' that since it is attached to an engine of a known config, that a certain injector pulse width at that rpm and that load will deliver the afr noted in the primary map.

Adjustments are made based on coolant temperature, knock sensor output, cold crank or not etc etc etc.

When you bolt on bigger turbos, assuming that nothing else has changed, those turbos will flow more volume of air (thus a greater mass) at a given manifold pressure. In practice this will move the car to run in parts of the map it might not have been in before, but nevertheless, those sections are mapped. (Basically you would expect an effect of the ecu seeing higher loads than it previously would have at given rpm and boost pressures since there is now a higher mass of air being measured. This will result in the richer mixtures you will see in the higer load zones in the map.

If the calculated load is bigger than the top of the map, then pop-o you will get fuel cut. If not it will do the afr sitting at that point in the map.

So yes its all related, and of course there will be afr effects. be careful as to how much boost you run. There is no way the fuel system std (i didnt actualy read if you were std or not, sorry) will not cope with what 13T's could pottentialy throw out. Remember what is importnat is the mass of air, not the boost pressure. And because the tubs flow more you will have higher mass air flow at a given boost pressure. If your injectors, or pump or whatever, cant supply enough fuel at those points then the car will run lean and start to knock.

Hope that is some use.

Cheers,

Ben.

bradc
11-06-2007, 08:39 PM
On that note, the stock fuel pump runs out of power at about 190-195kw ATW, and the injectors in my car are above 90% duty cycle at 225kw ATW. Ohh and have some rep points Ben.

EdmundVR4
12-06-2007, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

pezza
14-06-2007, 05:46 PM
So Edmund is it all running sweetly now?

Do you have any pix of your engine bay?

Was it a lot of juggling and cutting, moving battery etc in order it get it all under the hood?

Interesting.... :thinking:

EdmundVR4
14-06-2007, 06:48 PM
So Edmund is it all running sweetly now?

Do you have any pix of your engine bay?

Was it a lot of juggling and cutting, moving battery etc in order it get it all under the hood?

Interesting.... :thinking:

Pezza, Not boosting as fast as I expected, other than that it's fine.
Downpipe had to be adjusted (fabricate to fit) & everything looks stock from above. It feels powerful at higher rpms. I am going to install a Haltech Interceptor & 550cc injectors...then I think I'll be happy !
We're getting a 4 wheel chassis dyno here soon & I'll report back then.
Regards,
Edmund