braking

[SGHOM]

I'm sorry if I open up a 'can of worms' here, but having followed most of you on track.... I've got to say that most, if not ALL of you are cr@p at braking. /Grrr
If we had access to the vids... :thinking: I'd prove my point more clearly.

All of you brake far too early. & thats proved by the number of threads regarding worn pads... fade.. etc.
I have cheap pads in my car, & I guarantee I will outbrake most of you lot on the track. /rally all circuits have braking points/cones..... just ignore them /pan you need to brake VERY hard, & VERY late. that way, it better's your lap time & saves on your discs & brakes.
At combe, I was locking up in all the corners.... outwitting the ABS.... & I had no problem with wear or fade. Just ask Barry how my brakes performed. :scholar:

Sorry if I upset anyone ....... but you all really need to get to grips with proper braking & tracking. /rally

[Kieran]

There's a couple of comments I have here Derek.

You may have cheap pads.... But you also have Brembo Discs and calipers, so it figures you've got the ability to outbrake most other VR-4s and for a longer period of time. Or are you saying that with standard VR-4 discs and pads, you could also outbrake people and not get fade?

Going on from that, how does early, moderate braking exacerbate toasted pads and discs, brake fade, etc. versus standing on the brakes at the last second?

I'm interested to hear your logic here.... Not that it matters to me per-se, it's just that what you've said doesn't make sense to me?:inquisiti

[SGHOM]

I'm interested to hear your logic here.... Not that it matters to me per-se, it's just that what you've said doesn't make sense to me?:inquisiti

Most of us who track cars have uprated brakes K. either kads, brembo's, AP etc. but most, if not all of you brake far too early.
At combe for example.... japfest... there is no need to brake before the avon rise. our cars will cope with that at speeds of up to 120 mph. [not that many of us reached that !! :inquisiti ] Just stamp on the brakes before the turn in point, ignore the braking cones.
trust me........ I'm a welder ! /rally /rally :evilgrin:

[Physician]

Yea, I agree with Derek ........ but even HE brakes too early sometimes - he could have just steered past this car without braking and losing pace. Let alone making me fill my pants.

Derek's big moment (http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000/.Movies/eek2.mov)

[Throbbe]

Going on from that, how does early, moderate braking exacerbate toasted pads and discs, brake fade, etc. versus standing on the brakes at the last second?


Assuming that heat generation is directly proportional to stopping effort (which I strongly suspect isn't the case) you'd only be generating the same amount of heat by braking late and harder, but a greater proportion of your lap would be off the brakes, and therefore greater cooling time.

[Spirit]

I can follow what you're saying Derek.....but at the end of the day it's what the driver feels most comfortable with.

If we were employed by a professional racing team then your points are valid, but we're not and all of us do it just for fun.

The only occassion I would want to change my current style is at the Ring, where a mixture of later braking and several other factors could reduce my time to a sub 9mins, but elsewhere I for one feel more in control braking earlier and I guess in a way have a few more fractions of a second to correct any mistakes than your suggested style.

[Paul Beazer]

I fail to see how braking LATER and HARDER would be kinder to you pads and disks, not mention extend their life?
Simple physics means if you brake harder and later you will generate more heat (and increased wear on the pads / disks). The heat generated from friction in pads / disks will be higher as the brakes have to do more work to reduce the forward momentum.
Also surely tyre wear will be increased as you exceed the grip (friction) of the rubber in the tyres also?
Also why does the ABS not work? I always thought it wasa bit oversensitive?

Please feel free to explain how and why? Im looking proof here!!!

[White Lightning]

but elsewhere I for one feel more in control braking earlier and I guess in a way have a few more fractions of a second to correct any mistakes than your suggested style.

Nail. Head. /yes

That's exactly what I was thinking. I won't dispute that harder/later braking will give better lap times but *if* something goes wrong there would be no margin for error. And I for one would rather not risk killing the car for the sake of an extra few seconds. I was starting to brake later and later on each lap at Combe but even by the end I was still braking just before the braking cones. I prefer to have the safety margin.

[Nick Mann]

Hmmm..... I could have maybe braked less, but not much later. I was chirping the tyres in most braking areas. I seem to recall overtaking other VR4's, but not getting overtaken by one?

But this isn't about the size of our cahonas!

Having driven a VR4 with grooved discs and DS2500s, then a VR4 with Brembos, there is no comparison. The brembos just don't fade! I will be trying cheap pads soon - I have purchased pads for the front Brembos for £35. I'll let you all know!

[richy rich]

I for 1 drive the same way as D but it is completely up to the individual how he/she is driving, most also need to drive the car home.

D and I like to drive hard on track and we do./rally

I for 1 have still have got the same discs and 2nd set of pads on my car when I changed them nearly 2 years ago. Ive done silverstone donny and combe and nearly 20k miles.(national grooved and DS2500 witch will be changed soon but i still have a lot of pad left)

As for braking cones what are they? at combe i was past them before i started braking./rally

[WildCards]

I think it's a case of balancing things out. Different cars, different corners and different drivers all dictate a different take on the 'brake as late as possible as hard as possible' mentality, I think your essentially right D, but you have to consider these aren't race cars and we aren't race drivers.

IMO a text book braking technique would be:
1. Brake with a consistent hard pressure in a straight line before the corner
2. Come off the brake let the vehicle regain it's composure and turn in
3. When the car settles into the corner start to apply pressure consistently to the accelerator
4. Make the the corner as open as possible and all actions before, during and after the corner should be made as smoothly as possible. Jerky movements and reactions cost time.

Something I know I personally don't do, especially during my first few laps (usually when karting as i'm well aware of my limited track day experience) is to use the full width of the track when exiting a corner.

[WildCards]

Heres some interesting reading on cornering basics, road based advice but alot of it should help, it has me anyway. Not sure it should be in this thread, but Dereck's topic got me thinking.

Cornering Basics 1 (http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=374522&hw=+%2B%22cornering+basics%22)
Cornering Basics 2 (http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=375324&hw=+%2B%22cornering+basics%22)
Cornering Basics 3 (http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=377317&hw=+%2B%22cornering+basics%22)

[SGHOM]

but Dereck's topic got me thinking.


Spell my name right stephen. :thinking: :thinking:

[WildCards]

Spell my name right stephen. :thinking: :thinking:

tut, alight then... stupid grey haired old man.

Another quote which explains things a little better;

"The accpeted method for braking while on a track is to get all your braking and down changes over and done with in a straight line before turning into the corner. Then gradually coming back onto the throttle through the corner. Braking whilst turning in, will in most cases only make the car more unstable and consequently slower through the corner. Braking whilst turning may 'feel' like the car is going faster beacuse it is unsettled and begins to slide, but if braking and turn is done smoothly and the car is not sliding it will actually be travelling faster. Also beacasue the car is not sliding you will able to get back on the power sooner at the exit of the corner.

After all, if the car is already turned in, going round the corner and not in the process of spinning or crashing, why do you need to be on the brakes?"

[Throbbe]

Not read the linky's yet, so apologies if it's said there, but turning as you come off the brakes preloads the suspension, so cutting out the stage 2 shown above (allowing the car to settle before the turn-in).

It does have to be said that I don't have the talent to do it properly*. ;) Just trying to get into the habit of left foot braking for now to smooth things out.

I know exactly what people are saying about a margin for error. If you want to learn about going fast, buy something you don't mind crashing! :) Having properly tested my new Brembos a few times the other night, it did suprise me just how quickly the car will pull up, a lot faster than the speedo can drop for a start, but that was in a straight line with no other cars about, not sure I could pull up that hard while thinking about the next corner (and the two after that of course).


* I could on a bike, but I was young and fearless then! Besides, the real experts were locking up their fronts to get the bike to pitch into the corner quicker, which just seems looney to a mortal like me!

[Wodjno]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:zzz::sleeping:


This thread is boring /yes

And is going nowhere /pan


Fast /rally

[SGHOM]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:zzz::sleeping:


This thread is boring /yes

And is going nowhere /pan


Fast /rally

I've seen you drive.... & you go nowhere, fast. /pan /pan

[White Lightning]

That's not true Derek. Glenn always brakes as late as possible ...

... just before he actually hits the car in front :speechles :inquisiti /haz

[Physician]

... just before he actually hits the car in front :speechles :inquisiti /haz

I never seem to have cars in front of me ............ :evilgrin: :scholar:

[White Lightning]

I never seem to have cars in front of me ............ :evilgrin: :scholar:

I don't think Glenn does have for long /haz

[Lillywotsername]

When it boils down to it...... As Pete says, it is down to the individual.

You all have to do what you feel is right for YOU and your CAR.

It doesn't matter how someone else is driving ( as long as it is sensibly of coarse) you all have to go out there to have fun and come home safely that is the main thing.

[Nick Mann]

I never seem to have cars in front of me ............ :evilgrin: :scholar:

At the risk of spamming further:

The car in fron never has cars in front of it. The most normal reason for this is that it is holding every other bugger up! /pan :P

[WildCards]

When it boils down to it...... As Pete says, it is down to the individual.

You all have to do what you feel is right for YOU and your CAR.

It doesn't matter how someone else is driving ( as long as it is sensibly of coarse) you all have to go out there to have fun and come home safely that is the main thing.

While that is true, if you know the proper technique you can at least practise it within your own limits with a view to gaining more speed, decreasing your lap times and being a better driver.

Glenn, wake up old man, from what i've heard you could do with some of this advice :evilgrin:

[Wodjno]

Glenn, wake up old man, from what i've heard you could do with some of this advice :evilgrin:

:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[SGHOM]

Here's an example. not the best... but the vids are in short supply. :thinking:
Mallory park;
As we come past Edwin's, & around coopers, we are not carrying a great amount of speed. maybe 80 mph max. If you look to the left, you'll see the braking cones. IMHO these need to be ignored if you've got decent brakes. we can slow from 80 to 20 in a much shorter distance than that. /rally

Just keep your eye on the brake lights, & you'll see what I mean.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19898

[Wodjno]

Here's an example. not the best... but the vids are in short supply. :thinking:
Mallory park;
As we come past Edwin's, & around coopers, we are not carrying a great amount of speed. maybe 80 mph max. If you look to the left, you'll see the braking cones. IMHO these need to be ignored if you've got decent brakes. we can slow from 80 to 20 in a much shorter distance than that. /rally

Just keep your eye on the brake lights, & you'll see what I mean.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19898

It's not working properly Derek :inquisiti

Theres only footage of a bunch of warm up laps :sleeping:

[psbarham]

at the risk of getting the tin opener out and opening this can of worms back up:thinking:

braking depends on driving styles , some people do the slow in fast out approach and use the traditional apex (the classic racing line)the late braking approach can work because the speed of the car before the apex is slower and the throttle should be in a neutral position if not slightly open which keeps the car stable before the throttle is increasingly applied as you exit the corner, this approach is generally the accepted fast way round the track , but some people just can't get on with it .

others use the late apex high corner speed style (squaring the corner off ) i am one of these, i spent too much time racing bikes to be able to change, this involves breaking a bit earlier but releasing the brakes earlier to maintain the corner speed all the way up to the late apex , and using the natural over steer of going in fast and turning hard to slow the car that bit more and because you get back on the throttle harder because you are straightened up sooner (less time turning) and the suspension spends a lot of compressed which saves it tying itself in knots , which in turn means the car is less likely to get unsettled for long enough to cause a problem , this method is very useful when racing for nipping up the inside of people on the exit of a corner ready for the drag race to the finish, and for scaring the crap out of doddering old farts on roundabouts :D

there are numerous variations on each of the above , and as already stated by everybody else its a personal preference thing and what feels best in that particular car , for example , i tend to get a lot more sideways in the corsa van than i do in the Galant , just because it feels happier doing it , the Galant is probably a lot more stable doing it than the van , but its down to feel (ooh eer missus )
ask any professional racing driver confidence is every thing , if your not confident in doing it then you won't do it well

right enough of my ramblings . back to the Bacardi :5shots: :5shots:

[Wodjno]

at the risk of getting the tin opener out and opening this can of worms back up:thinking:

braking depends on driving styles , some people do the slow in fast out approach and use the traditional apex (the classic racing line)the late braking approach can work because the speed of the car before the apex is slower and the throttle should be in a neutral position if not slightly open which keeps the car stable before the throttle is increasingly applied as you exit the corner, this approach is generally the accepted fast way round the track , but some people just can't get on with it .

others use the late apex high corner speed style (squaring the corner off ) i am one of these, i spent too much time racing bikes to be able to change, this involves breaking a bit earlier but releasing the brakes earlier to maintain the corner speed all the way up to the late apex , and using the natural over steer of going in fast and turning hard to slow the car that bit more and because you get back on the throttle harder because you are straightened up sooner (less time turning) and the suspension spends a lot of compressed which saves it tying itself in knots , which in turn means the car is less likely to get unsettled for long enough to cause a problem , this method is very useful when racing for nipping up the inside of people on the exit of a corner ready for the drag race to the finish, and for scaring the crap out of doddering old farts on roundabouts :D

there are numerous variations on each of the above , and as already stated by everybody else its a personal preference thing and what feels best in that particular car , for example , i tend to get a lot more sideways in the corsa van than i do in the Galant , just because it feels happier doing it , the Galant is probably a lot more stable doing it than the van , but its down to feel (ooh eer missus )
ask any professional racing driver confidence is every thing , if your not confident in doing it then you won't do it well

right enough of my ramblings . back to the Bacardi :5shots: :5shots:

Feck Me :speechles

I nearly woke up there :zzz:/Wave:zzz:

Someone talkin sense for a change /yes

Instead of "This is the way you do it" and "This is the way you don't" /pan

As i stated earlier :inquisiti

This Thread is going nowhere fast :thinking:

Although PSB just slowed it down a bit :D

/applaude

[KiwiTT]

Just a thought, we probably do not need to brake as hard and let the AYC take us through the corners a bit faster than what we would expect to do without AYC. This should help to increase track times. When I see comparisons on TV between the EVO and the WRX, this is the defining difference.

I suspect some slower drivers do not yet know how much they can trust their AYC.

NOTE: I would recommend good tyres too! ;)

[psbarham]

Feck Me :speechles

I nearly woke up there :zzz:/Wave:zzz:

Someone talkin sense for a change /yes

Instead of "This is the way you do it" and "This is the way you don't" /pan

As i stated earlier :inquisiti

This Thread is going nowhere fast :thinking:

Although PSB just slowed it down a bit :D

/applaude

thankyou sir , see a useful post on how to slow down a car and a thread in one go , sheer talent if you ask me :inquisiti

[WildCards]

Feck Me :speechles

I nearly woke up there :zzz:/Wave:zzz:

Someone talkin sense for a change /yes

Instead of "This is the way you do it" and "This is the way you don't" /pan

As i stated earlier :inquisiti

This Thread is going nowhere fast :thinking:

Although PSB just slowed it down a bit :D

/applaude

It's all useful information to those that don't know or have never been told.

[Wodjno]

It's all useful information to those that don't know or have never been told.

Or dangerous /yes

[WildCards]

Or dangerous /yes

Driving is dangerous. Everyones gotta start somewhere Glenn, how else are you going to learn?

[Wodjno]

Driving is dangerous. Everyones gotta start somewhere Glenn, how else are you going to learn?

But learning a totally different style of driving from the norm ! Is best left to the track /yes

And i know it's dangerous :inquisiti Thats what makes it such a Buzz. :afro:

And for me ! Driving within a comfort Zone is not exciting !

But fighting the car for every little bit you can get out of it, is /rally

But as i said from the start :thinking: This thread is a total waste of time, except for people to say how good they are at driving and how crap everyone else is..

If you want to learn properly then get some lessons on track /yes

[Throbbe]

If you want to learn properly then get some lessons on track /yes

Seconded. Pound for pound about the best way to make your car go faster, and it makes future cars go faster too. Needless to say, I haven't taken my own advice, but of course I'm a great driver and everyone else is crap. :scholar:

[WildCards]

But learning a totally different style of driving from the norm ! Is best left to the track /yes


I disagree i'm afraid mate, learn a new skill and practice it, whenever and wherever you can as long as it's safe to do so.



And i know it's dangerous :inquisiti Thats what makes it such a Buzz. :afro:

And for me ! Driving within a comfort Zone is not exciting !

But fighting the car for every little bit you can get out of it, is /rally


I think we all agree with that, otherwise we wouldn't have trackdays.



But as i said from the start :thinking: This thread is a total waste of time, except for people to say how good they are at driving and how crap everyone else is..


Fair enough, your opinion, as mine is mine, i'm not going to stoke the fire any more.



If you want to learn properly then get some lessons on track /yes

Indeed, alot of TD organisers these days throw in free tuition fora session if you get your name down early enough. I'll certainly make use of their services once i've got the 205 sorted and i'm tracking it.

[White Lightning]

Yeah, good post Mr. PSB. I read it last night but did not get around to commenting ...

I for one, certainly learnt a lot more about what the VR-4 is capable of on track during our recent trip to the Ring and Spa. I was sooo impressed with the handling in the wet/damp conditions and started to realise just how good the AYC is at keeping the car stable ... :pimp2:

[Wodjno]

I disagree i'm afraid mate, learn a new skill and practice it, whenever and wherever you can as long as it's safe to do so.





Well even though i quoted what you are disagreeing with :inquisiti

I actually agree with you :thinking: Well for myself anyway :speechles

I have learn't all i have learn't on the roads /yes

But for most peeps.... The Track is the safest place /yes

PS.. This is my last (but 191 )posts /rally

[HJM]

Good to see all the trackday 'Regulars' posting on this thread ?

H

ps They won't comment cause they don't want you to go faster :joker:

[Wodjno]

Good to see all the trackday 'Regulars' posting on this thread ?

H

ps They won't comment cause they don't want you to go faster :joker:

And what makes you think there input would have any affect on other peoples speed /STP

[HJM]

And what makes you think there input would have any affect on other peoples speed /STP

Looks like you're outta posts !

Funny but I could have sworn that most things in life were learnt by experience or do I like going round the track just to see that funny black and white flag :inquisiti

H

[Wodjno]

Looks like you're outta posts !

Why ??


Funny but I could have sworn that most things in life were learnt by experience :inquisiti

H

Exactly my sentiments :D

[HJM]

Why ??



Exactly my sentiments :D

Ha Ha - the old editing trick - you're a genius !

Yes - so go away and practice on the track as being a tarmac terrorist is for idiots and not fair on innocent people who you will eventually hit !

Also remember everyone has the choice to drive like Jean Alesi (agressive, fun, but not so quick) or Jackie Stewart (subtle, less fun, but ultimately just that little bit quicker) - try both - I do (and so does that nutter Simon more so !)that is why tracking is so addictive /rally

H

[Wodjno]

Ha Ha - the old editing trick - you're a genius !

Yes - so go away and practice on the track as being a tarmac terrorist is for idiots and not fair on innocent people who you will eventually hit !

Also remember everyone has the choice to drive like Jean Alesi (agressive, fun, but not so quick) or Jackie Stewart (subtle, less fun, but ultimately just that little bit quicker) - try both - I do (and so does that nutter Simon more so !)that is why tracking is so addictive /rally

H


Oh Oh !! I'm getting Sleeeeee :zzz::zzz:

[HJM]

Oh Oh !! I'm getting Sleeeeee :zzz::zzz:

That's another driving problem for most of us - attention span !

[Wodjno]

That's another driving problem for most of us - attention span !

And thats what i find on most the tracks i been on /yes

Coombe and Silverstone being the worst for this :sleeping:

[Wodjno]

Ha Ha - the old editing trick - you're a genius !



You are my inspiration :iloveyou:

[HJM]

And thats what i find on most the tracks i been on /yes

Coombe and Silverstone being the worst for this :sleeping:

Don't dis the Combe :evilgrin: (which you can't spell either !) - all tracks have a lot to offer you are obviously a channel flicker and get bored easily which says a lot about your views on this thread.

Still I'm off again saturday to have yet another 'boring' time at Combe - long live being bored :pimp2:

H

[Wodjno]

Don't dis the Combe :evilgrin: (which you can't spell either !) - all tracks have a lot to offer you are obviously a channel flicker and get bored easily which says a lot about your views on this thread.

Still I'm off again saturday to have yet another 'boring' time at Combe - long live being bored :pimp2:

H

You are right in a way :inquisiti

I do get bored easily /yes And don't get me wrong :inquisiti Both Silverstone and Combe are great tracks for beginners ;)

I wouldn't ever see myself getting bored with Donnigton or the Ring though.. /rally

[HJM]

You are right in a way :inquisiti

I do get bored easily /yes And don't get me wrong :inquisiti Both Silverstone and Combe are great tracks for beginners ;)

I wouldn't ever see myself getting bored with Donnigton or the Ring though.. /rally

Don't want to really get down to bragging rights, but I've driven most of these more than you and none are for beginners - beginners just do them more slowly.

Its a bit like being a sportsman - just because you play in a lower league doesn't mean you would not bother - no you give it your all and to the best of your abilities.

Also and this is from EXPERIENCE the VR4 could be construed as a beginners car (safe predictable), whereas the Supra (sideways death machine) is not and I dare say I'd find a GT3 RS hard to drive well - the beauty of trackdays is that you can have fun in anything, whatever your ability and that goes for blimmin braking !!!

Ok - this is my last post on this thread as my attention span is dwindling (thank god he's going to shut up I hear them cry !)

H

[White Lightning]

/catfight

/haz

/pan

[Kieran]

I guess all of this is a bit like my specialist subject of car cleaning; There is a right (or perhaps I should say, 'accepted') way of doing it, which I am still learning, and probably will be for a long time yet. An 83 step cleaning ritual does produce a better result to a quick blast with a hose and a bucket of wash N' wax, but at the most basic level, both methods leave you with a clean car.

Same with braking. I like to plan ahead, slow gently and then turn, rather than standing on the pedal for the sake of a few seconds a lap.... to me that's not fun. At Castle CoooooomeByYah I was exhibiting 'Poor' textbook technique, but myself and my passenger(s) were cackling with glee as I squealed through corner after corner, but that was what I was happy with doing - and most importantly, I felt safe and in control.

So you do whatever you are comfortable with - be it honing your trackday skills, polishing your car, doing the 1/4 dash or whatever, and most importantly, it really doesn't matter if you're good or bad at it - as long as you enjoy it and have some fun that's all you need to worry about.

And that's really all there is to it.

[White Lightning]

as long as you enjoy it and have some fun that's all you need to worry about.

And that's really all there is to it.

Wise words there Kieran ... :scholar:

I do want to add one thing to that last statement though ... "as long as you enjoy it, have some fun" ... and come home in one piece.

[Wodjno]

- as long as you enjoy it and have some fun that's all you need to worry about.

And that's really all there is to it.


Which is why i initially wrote this :scholar:



ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:zzz::sleeping:


This thread is boring /yes


And is going nowhere /pan


Fast /rally







Don't want to really get down to bragging rights, but I've driven most of these more than you and none are for beginners - beginners just do them more slowly.

Its a bit like being a sportsman - just because you play in a lower league doesn't mean you would not bother - no you give it your all and to the best of your abilities.

Also and this is from EXPERIENCE the VR4 could be construed as a beginners car (safe predictable), whereas the Supra (sideways death machine) is not and I dare say I'd find a GT3 RS hard to drive well - the beauty of trackdays is that you can have fun in anything, whatever your ability and that goes for blimmin braking !!!

Ok - this is my last post on this thread as my attention span is dwindling (thank god he's going to shut up I hear them cry !)

H

Just because someone has driven round a track more times than someone else !! It doesn't mean they are faster or can drive it faster than those who haven't driven it as much :D

And by saying you don't want to get into bragging rights ! Means you are :evilgrin:

I don't agree with the VR4 is a beginners car /pan

Maybe you just didn't find out how good a VR4 can be when pused beyond it's limits /rally

And thus, because you couldn't go any faster and struggled to pass other VR4's on track :inquisiti Decided to purchase a car that go's faster in a straight line so you could look like you are a faster driver /woot/Steeringw/Hmmm:P/Devil5:laugh:/STP

/nag

































C'mon post, post, post, post, post :evilgrin:

[Spirit]

Yawn..........even watching England is more interesting...../haz


Edit: Ok, I lied, keep posting hehehe

[HJM]

Just because someone has driven round a track more times than someone else !! It doesn't mean they are faster or can drive it faster than those who haven't driven it as much :D

And by saying you don't want to get into bragging rights ! Means you are :evilgrin:

I don't agree with the VR4 is a beginners car /pan

Maybe you just didn't find out how good a VR4 can be when pused beyond it's limits /rally

And thus, because you couldn't go any faster and struggled to pass other VR4's on track :inquisiti Decided to purchase a car that go's faster in a straight line so you could look like you are a faster driver /woot/Steeringw/Hmmm:P/Devil5:laugh:/STP

/nag

C'mon post, post, post, post, post :evilgrin:

Ok one more !

Agreed, but doesn’t mean the opposite could be true !

How many trackdays have you experienced ?

I disagree and I know several previous VR4 owners will confirm that the VR4 is a ‘relatively’ easy car to drive (its 4wd and got AYC !) on track.

I have pushed a VR4 beyond its limits numerous times on a circuit – hence the lawnmower man nickname.

Never had difficulty passing VR4’s in a VR4 – can only recall one I have never passed and that is Richard (no disgrace there !)

My other car was originally purchased as a hack to work/weekend fun car with no intention of tracking it – it was only when I became more experienced I was confident to try it out and realised straight away it was much more fun to drive and is generally 3 secs a lap quicker around Combe and not just because of straight line ability.

I’ve come a long way since Derek taught me to drive (particularly my braking !) at Elvington !
I've had hours of fun and its cost a small fortune, but wouldn't change any of it :pimp2:

Now I’m really bored with this – typical Derek, lights the blue touch paper and stands back.

H

[SGHOM]

typical Derek, lights the blue touch paper and stands back.

H

not in the slightest Heath !! :thinking: I've followed it with interest & will post my thoughts another time. /rally

[Kieran]

will post my thoughts another time. /rally

Post 'em now! We wanna hear 'em!

[g6acb]

I tend to keep quiet on discussions like these for a couple of reasons, mainly a) not lucky enough to own a VR-4 and b) never driven a car on track in my life......

but if I may make an observation.....

You are all relating braking techniques to trackdays.... trackdays where the emphasis is on having fun in a safe and controlled situation where you can push your car without fear of police, scameras etc

to keep trackdays safe and controlled, you are abiding by a set of rules i.e overtaking on one side only, sometimes only on certain parts of the track and where laptimes are not recorded...

as opposed to 'racing' where the sole object is to get past the car infront by what ever means possible without compromising yourself / car and record the fastest lap time possible lap after lap within the limits of your car to get to the end of the race.

You could have the best brake setup in the world with the best technique but generally on trackdays - and I don't recall anyone here 'racing' their car - you can only brake as late as the car in front of you - and that car may well have less ponies, a less experienced driver, fried brakes etc etc.

A perfect example of this was when I was a passenger in Heath's Supra at Donnington and a Rover 25 refused to indicate their approval that we may overtake - and that was us sat behind it for 2 laps - Heath hitting the brakes as soon as it did....

I think what trackdays require are the driver to call on a range of braking techniques - the skill would apear to me to be knowing which one to choose in any given situation

[Wodjno]

it was only when I became more experienced I was confident to try it out and realised straight away it was much more fun to drive and is generally 3 secs a lap quicker around Combe and not just because of straight line ability.



H

Timing Laps :speechles

Tut Tut Tut /pan

I'm sure you have told me that your never time Laps as it is dangerous and pointless :inquisiti

/Devil5

And don't tell me that it was someone else who timed it :thinking:

As it won't wash :scholar:

PS.. Never passed me on track ??

Except when i been parked at the side/Wave :bigcry: /Nuuu /STP

[HJM]

Timing Laps :speechles

Tut Tut Tut /pan

I'm sure you have told me that your never time Laps as it is dangerous and pointless :inquisiti

/Devil5

And don't tell me that it was someone else who timed it :thinking:

As it won't wash :scholar:

PS.. Never passed me on track ??

Except when i been parked at the side/Wave :bigcry: /Nuuu /STP


Never timed my laps - only refer to my video timer after a trackday.

Yes - passed you several times at RT3, well if you are gonna keep breaking your car and running out of fuel /lol

[Beastlee]

ONt he way to work there is a mile long straight on which I have to take a left turn approx half way down. It is the only point you can safely overtake of the 6.4 mile journey and normally you will get stuck behind somone doing 30 in the 60 zone.
I have been using the turn to practice how the car handles and brakes/rally , obviously only when nobody is likely to get hurt, and have found that I can brake from very very close to the turn and throw it round the bend without so much as a squeak from the tyres. I am restricted to practicing this up to the speed limit but I'm sure it would still be fine for another 20mph above it :thinking: There are a couple of easy bends then into a tight left and right that require considerable braking too yet the brakes seem to cope fine with this with no fade at all.
The VR-4 just keeps on impressing me and I find that the grip and handling allow me to get to work faster and more efficiently as there is much less need to brake into the bends. THis in turn means that the average economy is not much less than I was getting in the SAAB for the same journey.

In answer to Kieran's question 'Going on from that, how does early, moderate braking exacerbate toasted pads and discs, brake fade, etc. versus standing on the brakes at the last second?' I think is answered by the physics of braking. We all know that braking relies on friction and that this generates heat that in turn boils the brake fluid and effects the make up of the pads.
If we take an example of a bend that requires you to drop from 80 to 30 you need to scrub 50mph either way. If you brake over a distance of 100m you are applying a lower pressure to the pedal than for a 50m stomp. In both cases there is heat generated however for the longer distance the heat is building up and may still reach the critical temperatures required to cause fade/boiling. For the 50m braking the same temperatures will be reached but for a much shorter time therefore having less overall effect on the components. The other factor is that over time the heat dissipates into all of the surrouinding components wheras the short sharp braking produces a single heat point that could be quickly cooled under acceleration.

I may be wrong in this conclusion but I'm sure someone can put it more accurately and succinctly.

[Simon]

You are all wrong /Nuuu









you need to be "trail Braking"!!!!!!! :speechles







Joke! :book: :laugh: This has been a funny thread.......well done Derek:iloveyou: /rally

[Wodjno]

You are all wrong /Nuuu

He He :D









you need to be "trail Braking"!!!!!!! :speechles







Joke! :book: :laugh: This has been a funny thread.......well done Derek:iloveyou: /rally

Wondered how long it would be before you chipped in /pan


Your not as easy a catch as Heath :scholar:

He takes much bigger bites than you :speechles

But then his car is Much faster yours /yes so has more to defend /rally

[Paul Beazer]

/stp /stp

[WildCards]

So, to sum up, the general concensus is that trackdays are for fun, so do what you want as long as it makes you happy.

Cool

[Spirit]

So, to sum up, the general concensus is that trackdays are for fun, so do what you want as long as it makes you happy.

Cool

Perfect.....and to add.....coming home in one piece is more important than lap times

[mitzitech2007]

i agree if you want to race full on and kill the other components of your car by extreame braking then thats cool but most of vr4 owners will probably agree that they will want to drive there car to work for the next couple of months after a track day till the next trip on a track day, not buying wheel bearing and all the other bits that will have a shorter life due to extreame heat generated by braking late. but still if you can afford to run your car like that thats cool!

[Ryan]

I stumbled across this thread whilst reading about "what's the big deal about brembos?"

I found it a very interesting read, especially the links about cornering.

Some comments which stood out for me were:

"Just because someone has driven round a track more times than someone else !! It doesn't mean they are faster or can drive it faster than those who haven't driven it as much "

Could not agree more on that - Ricardo Patrese, the most experienced F1 driver in history but he never won a championship. Case closed.

Second one that I came across:

"I don't agree with the VR4 is a beginners car "

I think the author meant "as a beginners..." but anyway... I had driven a couple of high performance cars prior to owning the VR-4, namely:

* E36 BMW M3
* 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo
* W140 S500 Mercedes Benz

But certainly never thrashed them because... well... they weren't mine! When I bought the VR-4, I knew what it was about but drove it cautiously for the first few weeks before really finding out just how good it was!

In fact, I would go so far as to say that this would be the *ideal* beginner's performance car because it has so many gadgets to save you from cocking up!

[Physician]

In fact, I would go so far as to say that this would be the *ideal* beginner's performance car because it has so many gadgets to save you from cocking up!

Hahaha! Well, as this thread has been resurrected I may as well comment.

I fully understand your comments about the VR4 being an ideal beginner's car Ingletor - it's something I've said in the past, however, it really does depend on your point of view.

I might say that I'm happy to let my middle aged wife drive my VR4 on a track, or my inexperienced elder brother, as the car has a number of advanced safety systems to assist them in staying on the hard stuff.

However, if I were to put on my 'Racing Driver Instructor' cap, then I would not want you to learn in a VR4 as you would not learn how a car normally acts. I want you to learn how to control skids etc.

It's a fact that whereas the AYC system is great for the average driver (and something I personally believe should be compulsory), a professional racing driver will outperform the AYC easily.

[Ryan]

Very good points Doctor and I agree with them.

[Subaru ETA]

yup the vr4 is a fun car to drive fast and not worry too much about ending up on your lid or something.

but i havent taken it on the track, only raced my mates s13 as its pretty primative compared to the vr4 and is alot more technical to drive

[SGHOM]

Ah the memories of a great thread :afro: :iloveyou:

Should I ressurect it with my plans for donington a week on monday? /rally :pimp2:

[Nick Mann]

errr......



No :inquisiti

[SGHOM]

errr......



No :inquisiti

oops sorry Nick. my bad. /pan /pan

I was going to do some brake temperature testing with Chris's thermogigerlywotsit thingy. :thinking:
a couple of hot laps with steady braking.... then check disc temp & possibly wear if I can. then 2 laps of hard, agressive braking to see the difference.

But if you're not bothered :speechles :thinking:

[Turbo_Steve]

VR-4 is a terrible car to learn to race in, as it goes very fast and will assist you until you really overcook it. Then it holds up it's hands and says "All the electronics in the world won't help you here, son" and you have no idea how you got there, how to fix it, etc etc

I have to confess, I though AYC would be a barrel of drifty slidey fun, but it's not: it spends a lot of time keeping the car composed and compensating for "idiot levels" but provoking it into slidey fun seems to require ridiculous levels of input and abuse...far more than a regular RWD car, or even a regular 4WD car. It's perfect for someone who ISN'T trying to race to go "pretty quick" on normal roads, as it allows you a margin for error, and even flashes lights to tell you it's doing it. For the track....I think the physical aspects of an early evo or a RWD monster are better: the 300zx was wider than several motorways, but could be tail happy to....and tended to slide very progressively. It also parked better than the VR-4 too LOL!

Don't get me wrong, the VR-4 is a truly awesome car, and I wouldn't change it for the world. But frankly if you're a real track day warrior, I can't see that this is the ideal car. Ultimate family run-about? Yes. RS4 worrier? Definitely. Autobahn master? Quite possibly...and I can see the point in taking it to a track and trying to go fast a few times. I just think if you want to go to the track a LOT and learn racing etc, you'll probably get more out of a 200SX or an old Mk1 MR-2 (These seriously rock for learning how to go fast!)