PDA

View Full Version : twin turbo upgrades? Garrett T28



Gly
11-07-2007, 10:41 AM
anyone know much about these?

how big are they? are thy bigger than the tdo4s that others have fitted?

also whats there flow rate in cfm? how well does it compare to our tdo3s?

also are they all the same? or are they like the tdo's where you can get them with different internals?


only bit of usefull info i could fine was


TURBINE SPECS: T28

.86 A/R Housing

79 Trim Wheel

COMPRESSOR SPECS: T3

.60 A/R Housing

60 Trim Wheel

Compressor Flow: 33 LB/MIN

Eurospec
11-07-2007, 01:29 PM
anyone know much about these?

how big are they? are thy bigger than the tdo4s that others have fitted?

also whats there flow rate in cfm? how well does it compare to our tdo3s?

also are they all the same? or are they like the tdo's where you can get them with different internals?


only bit of usefull info i could fine was


TURBINE SPECS: T28

.86 A/R Housing

79 Trim Wheel

COMPRESSOR SPECS: T3

.60 A/R Housing

60 Trim Wheel

Compressor Flow: 33 LB/MIN

Hello mate,

Yeah, they are bigger than td04s! They will be a td05. They will rock ass if you can get them to fit on. There will be a lot of customisation to do it. Oil feeds, drains, both manifolds, turbo elbows, downpipes, blank off the water feeds (they will be oil only i guess).

I guy i know has a gto with them on, it makes 550+bhp on std internals, map ecu 1, injectors, boost cont, pump, reg and FMIC.

Cheers,

Ben.

djwarden
11-07-2007, 02:33 PM
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2854R_471171_9.htm

Dont know if these specs enlighten you any? I got them from the garrett site and there are a few T28 models so take your pick.

bradc
11-07-2007, 08:37 PM
those are GT28R's which are different to T28's. GTxxR series turbos have a newer turbine design, ball bearings and are watercooled, while Txx series turbos aren't any of those!

djwarden
12-07-2007, 12:20 AM
Ah sorry mate didnt study the figures closely enough

Gly
12-07-2007, 05:50 AM
trying to find something easier to fit than subi tdo4s (flanges)
where i wont have to move the front engine mount.

but better than the tdo3s.

that isnt going to cost me an arm or a leg.

Kieran
12-07-2007, 10:56 AM
Gly - Look for the threads called "Let's think bigger Turbos" and "Power up! (Turbos)" by Valmes. Essential reading!

ako
13-07-2007, 08:39 AM
Depends on if your talking S13, S14, S15, GTR, GTiR etc turbos or any of the other variants of the T28 :)

Eveyone aims so small on here for some reason. RB25's are a wicked example of what a 2.5 motor can get away with - had one at work a couple weeks ago with a GT35/40 on board. 510 injectors, good ecu, usual supporting stuff - 500hp @ wheels on avgas, 16psi (not a typo). Even just T3/T4 mongrel turbos happily get figures over 350hp (wheel hp) under 15psi.

A 6A13 could get damn close to that, just make a manifold, bolt the turbo on, get some injectors and a fuel pump, chuck a link or whatever on it, there you go. Soooo much easier than trying to fit a pair of turbos and plumbing into an already overcrowded engine bay.

STOP AIMING SMALL

bradc
13-07-2007, 09:39 AM
when did it start to spool though? 5k?

Thats still my main concern, getting good driveability out of a car with 300kw ATW, I'm at 225kw ATW with the stock turbos, GT2554R's are capable of a good 50-70% more than that, so I can't see much of a reason to go any bigger.

ako
14-07-2007, 11:28 AM
It drove almost like a stock GTS25t actually :)

Made boost you could feel at 2500rpm, had full 16psi by 3500rpm. Brand new ball bearing turbos are a great thing :afro: . Course as soon as that happened it just slewed sideways in anything but 4th and 5th but least we could see what it was doing on the dyno hahaha

2L motors are totally different, the extra 2 cylinders and 500cc's a 2.5 6 has makes so much more of a difference than people give credit for.

Put it this way - going bigger in turbo size doesn't necessarily have to mean extra lag, at least not that you'd notice. I use the RB25 as an example purely cause its the closest comparison of something commonly modified. On the stock turbo they're maxxed at around 300hp @ wheels, maybe a little more if the owner wants to risk it. They have 390cc injectors just the same as a 6A13, and undersized turbos that go way innefficient over 1 bar boost. They make full boost at about 2500rpm, but there isn't much point revving them out much, even though they can go over 7K easily. Also trying to do anything with them on the stock ECU or just piggybacked is a dodgy measure at best. Sound familiar?

Chuck on damn near any turbo which can make decent power and theres one problem solved. They also run side feed injectors which cost a bomb to replace with bigger ones - the usual solution is to just make a new rail to use any injector you want. Even a new rail and 6 evo injectors is still far cheaper than a set of brand new side feed squirters.

No need to waste money on flash boost controllers, waste of time fuel regs, gauges and all kinds of shiny bits - just follow the simple formula of add more air and more fuel = a bigger bang and faster car. A stock evo 6 turbo will flow 240kW @ 20psi from under 3000rpm on a 2 litre, imagine say a 20g upgraded one of those, on a 2.5 motor :thinking: . A pair of GT series turbos will work just fine, just at double the cost of one big one...

bradc
14-07-2007, 10:58 PM
Mark - but when you add all of the cost of doing a full turbo install, the price difference between one big turbo (say $2000-2500) versus 2x gt2554r's at $1500 each, isn't actually that much. Now our stock turbos are:

Turbine:
Exducer 35mm
Inducer 40mm

Compressor:
Inducer 32mm
Exducer 45mm

Compared to a GT2554R you get

Turbine:
Exducer 41.7mm
Inducer 53mm

Compressor:
Inducer 42mm
Exducer 54.3mm

That is a huge size increase over the TD03's and I'd be perfectly happy with two of those, and they are Ball Bearing too!

sart0ri
31-07-2010, 06:27 AM
The Garrett GT 2554R does not seem to be a good choice, and they are $1300AUD each. If I have worked the VR4's flow figures out correctly you will be getting surge at lower revs.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/sart0ri/gt2554r-vr4.jpg

scientist
01-08-2010, 05:09 PM
Hello mate,

Yeah, they are bigger than td04s! They will be a td05. They will rock ass if you can get them to fit on. There will be a lot of customisation to do it. Oil feeds, drains, both manifolds, turbo elbows, downpipes, blank off the water feeds (they will be oil only i guess).

I guy i know has a gto with them on, it makes 550+bhp on std internals, map ecu 1, injectors, boost cont, pump, reg and FMIC.

Cheers,

Ben.
These aren't anywhere close to the power potential or spool up of TD05s. they would be more comparable to TD04s

sart0ri
02-08-2010, 03:44 AM
The stock WRX turbos from 2001 on look much better, and are around $500 each.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/sart0ri/TD04L-13G.gif

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/sart0ri/td04h-13Tvr4.jpg

eddyvr4
23-09-2010, 08:18 AM
sartori to save me trying to understand the maps, how do you conclude the td04s will be better? in what way? They will certainly be cheaper.. my concern is a pair of TD04 would be a logical budget choice but may still be too laggy (big)

how about TF035 from subaru forester? slightly smaller than a TD04 (apparently spool 500rpm lower) that would seem maybe ideal as an budget upgrade from stock to maintain the drivability without having to go to pricey garretts?

or could you cheaply modify a (pair of) tdo4 with different housing or compressor/exhaust wheels to improve its response (and accept a loss of cfm)

swinks
23-09-2010, 08:56 AM
See this thread, post no 52:
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44743&page=3

I've seen Kochajj upgrade live. He reach something approx. 450 bhp ATF with 1.3 bar boost.
IMO very easy way to do upgrade. Car feels so different. Afters few spins in Kochajj's car when I get to mine I felt like someone had stolen mine tubbys!

bradc
23-09-2010, 09:27 AM
TD04's on a VR-4 really aren't laggy at all. If you main concern about them is lag, don't worry about it!

eddyvr4
28-09-2010, 12:54 AM
Brad, on what information do you base above statement?

2 x TD04 Will be more laggy than than the stock setup, that would not be in dispute. But how much? If i want to maintain as much as possible the stock responsiveness, why should i not worry about that? I think its pretty widely accepted the factory TD04 on a 2.0L subaru engine is not laggy, but a pair on 2.5L VR4 engine? Thats a lot less displacement (1.25L) driving each turbo... i would expect it become noticibly more laggy.. Im keen for comments, but 'dont worry' hasnt convinced me, even from you... :-)

Im not suggesting TD04 is a bad way to go, but im curious to see if anyone with the expertise has crunched the numbers on TF035 upgrade to see what would theroretically be possible HP wise to extract out of a pair of them. if it was enough of a step up over the TD03 it could make for a good upgrade for those chasing a fatter midrage (maybe even on stock injectors?) and not so concerned with peak output. Of course TF035 would allow simple swap to TD04 anyway if desired.. Dunno, just throwing the idea out there..

i think the single TF035 only makes 125kw on the forester XT stock, (the later 01+ forester uses a larger TF035 exhaust housing) but a quick google revealed 135 ATW is possible on TF035 in the GT, around 15PSI . So in crude theory a pair could produce 270KW ATW, which is probably unrealistic, but 220 - 230 ATW with a pair on Auto VR4 may be reailistic? With noticibly better midrange than 2 x TD04? or is my thinking here flawed?

TD04 of course will flow more, and have superior Dyno bragging rights, but if you only want to target around 220- 230 ATW (AUTO) but maximise the area under the torque and power curve within this envelope, maybe TF035 would in fact be a better choice than TD04? So not for everyone, but thats the proposition im wanting to explore here....

bradc
28-09-2010, 07:02 PM
I've been in a VR-4 with TD04's, I didn't notice anything different.

eddyvr4
29-09-2010, 01:36 AM
Thanks Brad, thats encouraging.. Can i just clarify (as its not clear above) were you driving or passenger? A passenger wont notice the extra lag between moving the foot on the throttle and resulant acceleration... You only notice lag in the drivers seat.

scientist
29-09-2010, 04:05 AM
Any thing that can make decent power on the VR4 will be more laggy than stock. But thats still not a bad thing.

Quick spool, sacrifices top end + power. Top end sacrifices quick spool but makes power.

take your pick

Adam.Findlay
29-09-2010, 08:38 PM
hey carsten im looking into going bigger twins also as i dont want to conform and go single like most,
ive been reading on ozvr4 here
http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.php?9234-ROBS-6a13tt-TWIN-GARRETT-UPGRADE
this man has used two garrett gt2854r's which if i understand is the direct bolt on upgrade for the RB26DETT he was seeing 175AWKW on a measly 6psi of boost and when he wicked it up to 15ish he was tuning 260+ AWKW from it with larger injectors and a FMIC. he was saying he was seeing boost at 2300 which is about the same if not a bit higher then factory spool time,
however i have been looking into the Garrett GT2860R only very slightly larger but has a claimed flow of 360hp per turbo so if my maths is right :) 720 wee horses under the bonnet is acheiavable with these.
then again there is the G2871R which will flow more again but more lag. as stated in the first few posts from the GT28xxR series there are many to choose from but go have a yarn to a turbo rebuilder or specialist i went to see turbocare here in chch dont know whats your way though

Nutter_John
29-09-2010, 08:40 PM
Adam whats the difference between 500 bhp and 600 bhp ?

Adam.Findlay
29-09-2010, 08:43 PM
ahh PS the GT28xxR series are water cooled and oil cooled twin ball bearing turbos so will be quite pricey if you want somethig a bit cheaper look at the t25 or t28 turbos which are IIRC the oil only cooled non ball bearing turbos. but you could get two nissan GTiR turbos as they are gt28rs IIRC, ball bearing and water and oil cooled and just get them rebuilt, keep in mind the silvias are onl;y oil cooled well as i have been told only the GTiR sr20 has the water cooled turbo

scientist
29-09-2010, 09:22 PM
Only problem with geting T2x series is the TD04 outperforms them

bradc
30-09-2010, 08:36 AM
The TD04's have journal bearings so the Garretts should spool up sooner for an equivalant size, unless you know something we don't?

Adam.Findlay
30-09-2010, 12:01 PM
Only problem with geting T2x series is the TD04 outperforms them
but the GT28XXR on the otherhand, being ball bearing

Joikale
18-10-2010, 06:52 PM
How about 2 x Holset hx25? Spicy little tub with a pair would be up to 400 bhp?!?

Nice and small but puff in it?!?

mike74
19-10-2010, 08:59 AM
This is the factory spec for the tubby from a GTI-R:
Turbo - Garret TB2804 (T3/T25 combination -> Compressor = 60mm, 60 trim in .60A/R -> Turbine = 53mm, 79 trim in .86A/R
They're journal bearing tubbies with water cooling too. The usual upgrade for these would be a Garrett GT28RS (disco potato) & are rated for about 350hp. These are ball bearing tubby's & apparently spool up pretty quick! :)

Nutter_John
19-10-2010, 11:09 AM
gti-r is a 2litre where as the vr4 is 1.25 litre per bank, therefore thats an extra 40% more exhaust gases

zentac
19-10-2010, 06:29 PM
I have a GT35R if anyone is interested, I can include the pipework to convert to a single turbo.....This pipework includes wastegate and will need modifying to fit a 4WD VR4, but the manifolds, down pipes, up to the turbo should all fit. £2500 (Cost me over £4k)

Catalan
21-10-2010, 12:05 PM
I use now 2x garret turbos from GTR 32 N1 number 14411-06U00

this intermediate results

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4840/dsc0772h.jpg

Madhav
21-10-2010, 04:16 PM
Nice results, at what rpm do you get full boost?

Is that 407hp at the wheels or at the engine?