Forged pistons & rods

[Mark 4]

Is anyone prepared to share information on where they got forged pistons & rods ?

[SGHOM]

dont go there........... trust me. :inquisiti :thinking:

[bradc]

mine have been made locally in NZ, no idea by who!

[Nutter_John]

The United States of America

or

Try giving Eurospec a call / Benh

They are not cheap by the way 2-2.5k roughly

[Kieran]

dont go there........... trust me. :inquisiti :thinking:

You can't just say that and not elaborate... WHY?:inquisiti

Anyway - Mark....

KevinAPMotors has a forged engine but isn't sharing the details. /pan

Brad's getting his made by the "Acme Quality Forged Piston Co." somewhere in new zealand. /pan

Zentac's another forged one - He's posted some interesting information here:

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26646

And the only other route I know of is this....

Now that Legnums have been approved for use in Australia, some of the Ozzies are on about it. In fact, having just checked - RPW (a well known Aussie tuner) are now offering rods and pistons. You can also ask on www.ozvr4.com - They're a friendly bunch.

The Rods are $1845 - I am assuming this is AUD and not USD, and on this assumption they're about £806. The Pistons are $1725, which works out at £754.

Have a looky here:

http://www.rpw.com.au/shop/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=221&keyword=&manufacturer_id=0&Itemid=31&orderby=product_name&limit=50&limitstart=0

Hope this helps!

[Mark 4]

Cheers Kieran, you da :2thumbsup man.

[Nutter_John]

The pistons from RPW should not fit our vr4's

They have a comp ratio of 12:1 which means if you lucky you get a few runs out of them before they crap there load , we need much lower ratio's (9:1 or below )

The rods do fit , but it would prob be cheaper to order direct from scat or eagle in the states or as I said contact Benh for both pistons and rods

[SGHOM]

You can't just say that and not elaborate... WHY?:inquisiti



I cant see the point. :thinking: There's a market out there for heavily modding the likes of skylines, evo's etc, they will be around for years to come, but not VR4's.
VR4's are not made any longer, so the need for anyone to mass produce forged internals is pointless. the only way they will be financially viable is if they are mass produced.
Kev's attempt at making his car stronger & quicker ... IMHO ... has probably cost him his house ... his money.. his wife... almost everything. :speechles all for what ?? :thinking:
VR4's are a rarity. If you try & go down the forged internal route,and everything thats involved in that, then good luck. it's a dead end road.
just my opinion :iloveyou:

[Mark 4]

Each to their own.

[Kieran]

Derek - I bet diamonds that someone once said that about Evos, Skylines, etc. etc.

Your argument about them not being made doesn't hold water either. There's more being imported now than ever before - Look on Ebay or in Autotrader. And as more get imported, demand will grow and people will start seeing how far they can push them.

To turn around and say it's a dead end road is just not accurate. It's a difficult road for sure, but not one that leads nowhere.


John - Oh yeah.... Just checked out the specs on those
pistons and yes, they're for the N/A 6A13 engines.... so yeah, erm, they might not be the best choice :oops:

However I would still contact RPW anyway - They post on OzVR4 and they're looking at developing parts for these cars - Might be worth a call/email!!

[SGHOM]

Each to their own.

true. /rally I've no idea... but I guess he's spent over £20K on a £3K car just to make it go fast. /pan I'd never do that ! /duh :sick: :embarasse :embarasse

[Kenneth]

Life is a dead end road, yet we all go down it.

People spend money on the things they enjoy doing.

Building any engine for serious power is big money (to do it right anyway, you cut corners and you just end up paying more in the long run) no matter what vehicle you do it on. You also never get your money back out of it, so in that regard building any engine is a dead end road.

You pay your money and have your fun. If you can afford it and are happy with the money you spent then it was a success.

Good luck with the quest Mark :)

[SGHOM]

Your argument about them not being made doesn't hold water either.
was it Brad ? or someone, who posted a list of how many were actually made ?? :thinking: not that many IIRC :pimp2:

[Kieran]

was it Brad ? or someone, who posted a list of how many were actually made ?? :thinking: not that many IIRC :pimp2:

Depends how you define 'Not Many'. I can't tell how many of these were VR-4s, however I do know the production figures for Galant and Legnum in Japan from 1996 - 2001.

In that time:

221,312 Galants
162,358 Legnums

Were produced - That's more than a 1/4 million. Not a huge seller, but good enough!

[Nutter_John]

think Brad did post up and there were around 6,000 vr4's made so even with a 2% take up thats 15 sets of pistons , so ain't that bad , yep not as many as Evo or Sky's

[SGHOM]

think Brad did post up and there were around 6,000 vr4's made so even with a 2% take up thats 15 sets of pistons , so ain't that bad , yep not as many as Evo or Sky's
So :thinking: no market. It's a stand alone job, & just too expensive to consider imho.
Bear in mind, my car is still the fastest known VR4 in the world... & I didn't need forged internals for that ! :scholar: /rally

[Mark 4]

Life is a dead end road, yet we all go down it.

People spend money on the things they enjoy doing.

Building any engine for serious power is big money (to do it right anyway, you cut corners and you just end up paying more in the long run) no matter what vehicle you do it on. You also never get your money back out of it, so in that regard building any engine is a dead end road.

You pay your money and have your fun. If you can afford it and are happy with the money you spent then it was a success.

Good luck with the quest Mark :)


Respect Ken, exactly what I would have saidif I could be bothered to type it.:2thumbsup :chugchug:

[Mark 4]

Actually, I can be bothered to type a bit.

I'm 44. I've got 2 great kids and both are over 18 now. I will celebrate 25 years of (mostly) happy marriage next year and I have 2 fun loving Grand children. I've worked hard all my life and tried to have the things that I wanted along the way but this has only ever happened occasionally for all of the obvious reasons.

I've never had a really fast car - especially not one that is as capable as a VR4. I've had plenty of fast bikes but kinda grown out of them at the moment. When I was a kid I used to dream of having a Porsche and the latest big Kawasaki. Now I have a VR4 and it is... well read this thread

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25293

So, I'm happy enough to spend relatively large sums on a new found hobby that I really enjoy. It is not an investment, it is enjoyment.

Also, there are younger people in this club that are in the process of raising families and forging careers. They cannot afford to spend a lot of money on their cars but they can be inspired by older people who say **** the expense -lets have Nitrous, lets have forged internals, lets have bigger turbos because we have raised our families, our real work is done and now it is time to have FUN.

Not being funny or clever, just saying it like it is. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live or what to spend my money on.

[bradc]

lots more than 6000, I think it was more like 40000 in total made, evo production went something like

evo1 5000
evo2 5000
evo3 5000
evo4 7000
evo5 7000
evo6 10000

evo 7/8/9 were unlimited runs and were a lot more popular.

Now look at all of the early evo's out there with a huge amount of work done to them.

VR-4's are great cars, have two extra cylinders, and extra 0.5 capacity and pull like mad throughout the rev range. I don't have any qualms putting a lot of money into mine, you only live once and I damned well want to have a 500hp station wagon before petrol is worth more than diamonds.

[Gly]

Actually, I can be bothered to type a bit.

I'm 44. I've got 2 great kids and both are over 18 now. I will celebrate 25 years of (mostly) happy marriage next year and I have 2 fun loving Grand children. I've worked hard all my life and tried to have the things that I wanted along the way but this has only ever happened occasionally for all of the obvious reasons.

I've never had a really fast car - especially not one that is as capable as a VR4. I've had plenty of fast bikes but kinda grown out of them at the moment. When I was a kid I used to dream of having a Porsche and the latest big Kawasaki. Now I have a VR4 and it is... well read this thread

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25293

So, I'm happy enough to spend relatively large sums on a new found hobby that I really enjoy. It is not an investment, it is enjoyment.

Also, there are younger people in this club that are in the process of raising families and forging careers. They cannot afford to spend a lot of money on their cars but they can be inspired by older people who say **** the expense -lets have Nitrous, lets have forged internals, lets have bigger turbos because we have raised our families, our real work is done and now it is time to have FUN.

Not being funny or clever, just saying it like it is. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live or what to spend my money on.


good on you,
i cant afford to spend money on modding my car either...
but if theres a will theres a way,

you only live once, whats the point of saving every penny you earn,
waste it on stuff that makes you happy IMO

[Louis]

The pistons from RPW should not fit our vr4's

They have a comp ratio of 12:1 which means if you lucky you get a few runs out of them before they crap there load , we need much lower ratio's (9:1 or below )

The rods do fit , but it would prob be cheaper to order direct from scat or eagle in the states or as I said contact Benh for both pistons and rods

Can't we just have the top of the pistons machined, as in remove some of the metal?. It's been done before (by a mate) who fitted a blower, supercharger to a v8, the compression wa 10:1, but we had the top of the pistons machined off, ( less metal = more room in combustion chamber = less compression) to drop the ratio to 7:1.
IMO the rods are more difficult to adapt.
But if the Rods are a good fit at £806 and pistons at £754, plus machining costs (and treating, ceramic coated tops if required) then it's still expensive, but getting cheaper!!.
just a thought!

[Nutter_John]

Depends on the thickness of the deck , also the deck height will be different

To coat and machine etc would make way more expensive than ordering direct custom ones , for instance your looking around 900 for pistons that have been custom design to fit

[valmes]

Life is a dead end road, yet we all go down it.

How true... :2thumbsup

[amsoil]

Ball park figure are like John says, £150 per rod and per piston. Yes you can go cheaper in rods by buying from the USA but the lower prices can often be for lower spec rods. Be a bit careful . Personally I always go for high quality and light weight to allow the engine to spin up faster; IMHO titantium rods and ARP bolts are a must (and sod the expence)

[Mark 4]

Ball park figure are like John says, £150 per rod and per piston. Yes you can go cheaper in rods by buying from the USA but the lower prices can often be for lower spec rods. Be a bit careful . Personally I always go for high quality and light weight to allow the engine to spin up faster; IMHO titantium rods and ARP bolts are a must (and sod the expence)


Well said.

[Nutter_John]

yep but at around £600 per rod in titanium makes it just a wee bit too pricey

but redline at 10,000 anyone ?? :D

[amsoil]

£600 per rod !
They must be cheap mass produced ones.......
Try getting them in sets of (custom made in the UK) 12.
LOL or is that sob silently?

[Nutter_John]

Hmm wonder what engine you need twelve for ;)

Yeah that was from the USA it was $1350 per rod last time i checked , so in the uk are we talking £1000 each then Don ????

[Mark 4]

yep but at around £600 per rod in titanium makes it just a wee bit too pricey

Group buy anyone ??

[Mark 4]

but redline at 10,000 anyone ?? :D

John, are you serious about this ??

[zentac]

Ive now got rods and pistons available on my site, however I have not run them in my car yet, so I wouldnt want to recomend them until Ive run the engine in. The design has been changed and the rods/pistons wont fit with any other rods/pistons. £2100 for Crower Rods and JE Pistons, but I dont want to sell them until Im happy with them.

http://www.rb-performance.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/25_24/products_id/72

[amsoil]

Not quite that much but not too far from it John.
Group buy LOL,
They are good for over 10,000, or so says my mechanical tacho tell tale which was stuck on the stops a few times. The data logger gave an unbelievable 12.350 but as the ignition cuts at 8K it must have been buzzed on down shifting. No it wasn't me, We had to change the valve springs as a prcaution ( a few times (spaz driver) .

Crower and JE are both very well respected names/ brands.

[Mark 4]

So titanium rods are good for 10000 rpm but what about the rest of the engine and would titanium pistons be necessary ?

Group buy - lets investigate, John do you have any weblinks or contact info ?

[Mark 4]

Just read this thread, makes it look a bit less promising.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=90426&page=1

[zentac]

why would you need titanium rods, I know evo's with crower rods that run 700+ bhp

[Nutter_John]

Because the rods are about half the weight and just as strong , meaning you can raise the revs to a much higher level ( less mass )

So you can push the redline to 10,000 rpm you can use a couple of nice big turbos and even if they only hit boost by 5,000 rpm you have 5,000 rpm at full boost

[Nutter_John]

Mark , think it was Scat , eagle of Crowther rods who offered the tit rods

[Mark 4]

Yea, if you follow the link that I posted above then it mentions them. Trouble is the Tit rods are only 25% lighter because they are not as strong as Cromoly and therefore need to be a bit beefier - more material = more weight.
This means not much gain for an awful lot of money. Shame.

[Nutter_John]

I still recon with stronger valve springs you can push a forged vr4 engine to 9,000 rpm

Only time will tell

[Kieran]

I reckon John's right - Well, just look at the MIVEC 6A12 - Similar to the 6A13 and from the factory it revs to just over 8,000 doesn't it?

[Mark 4]

So you think these are a worthwhile option if we forget about the cost of them?

[Nick Mann]

I guess it depends on the end goal of the engine you are building.If you are aiming for the ultimate, then go for it! But without all the supporting mods to get big power, its a bit pointless.

People haven't fully investigated the limits of standard internals IMO, let alone forged internals. Titanium internals is a new ball park!

[bradc]

the stock rods aren't worth investigating. They are just too small to worry about. I don't think there is a need to change the internals if you stick with the stock turbos (well unless you are running 200hp NOS)

Once you change to any turbos which are even slightly bigger, you should be changing to forged rods and pistons. The rods are tiny and we've seen a few sets of pistons with cracked ring lands (although this is mostly due to detonation)

[Gowf]

I guess it depends on the end goal of the engine you are building.If you are aiming for the ultimate, then go for it! But without all the supporting mods to get big power, its a bit pointless.

People haven't fully investigated the limits of standard internals IMO, let alone forged internals. Titanium internals is a new ball park!


My point exactly. Although when looking at the standard rods they do indeed look weak, until someone has snapped one without any det being present then we will never know how much power they can actualy take.

[zentac]

there was no sign of det on my pistons at all, but that doesnt help as we dont have an accurate power figure for my car.

[Mark 4]

Zentac, are you saying that you snapped a rod with no det. ? If so, can you hazard a guess as to why the rod went or roughly what your power was at the time.

[Kenneth]

there was no sign of det on my pistons at all, but that doesnt help as we dont have an accurate power figure for my car.

Out of interest, what RPM did your rod(s) fail at?

[amsoil]

I think some people get the wrong idea about titanium rods.... The way it works (for me ) is this:-
Std rods appx 850 gms each forged roads 650 -680 gms each dependant upon make. Titanium rods 465 gms each Weight saving by using a forged piston with narrower and tapered internal wrist pin appx 125gms.
This all adds up to a reciprocating weight saving of over 3 1/2 kilos using forged rods and pistons (12 cylinders) and a massive just over 5 1/2 kilos saving when using titanium rods and pistons.
It is the weight saving which is inportant, this lessens the loading on the crank considerably, which in turn does allow higher revs for the same loading but not as much as you would think as forces increase by the square as the revs rise. This lessening of forces allows the use of a lighter forged crank with smaller SBC (chevy) bearings the weight saving of the crank is 12 kilos!!! and the chevy bearings means chevy (read this as much cheaper) rods can be used. The really big gain is that the saved 5.5kilos (+ the 12 K from the crank) does not have to be accelerated from zero to a couple of thousand feet per second and slowed to zero all X 2 per revolution. The power that is saved from this is then able to shove the car forward. There is no more power but it is better used. The technical statement would be that I can accelerate the reciprication mass much faster per second per second ie the rate of increase in the revs is very much faster as is the cars acceleration...... if thats all clear? The revs are not restricted by the rods but but the valve train as the valves have become so large that they need to be sodium filled titanium to keep the weight low and speed up heat transfer and the revs are restricted to prevent valve bounce and the breaking od the valves that will follow.

[Mark 4]

"sodium filled titanium"

I'll have two please. With chocolate sauce and nuts.

Don, are you pointing out that one mod leads to another bigger mod or are you thinking about the ultimate VR4 engine ?

[Kenneth]

The way I always looked at it is like this

2 desirable attributes with Rods, low weight and high strength. You can have some of both, or more of one than the other, but not extremes of both.

Different materials (Aluminium, Steel, Titanium etc) balance these attributes differently.

Titanium rods are not inherently stronger than standard forged rods, for the same physical size Titanium is weaker. The benefit is that the reduction in strength for that size is less than the reduction in weight. So if you beef up the Titanium rod to be the same weight as a standard forged rod, it will be stronger. (but also physically bigger)

Titanium is also desirable because it resists work hardening well. so theoretically the titanium rod wears well and wont stress and snap as quickly when pushed close to its limits.

Aluminum is weaker again for the same physical size, but again the strength drop is less than the weight drop.
The problem with Aluminium is that it tends to grow / stretch over time with the stresses placed on it.
In other words, Aluminium is around for a good time, not a long time.

You choose which you need based on your application and your budget.
Titanium is the best compromise of endurance and strength for weight, and so is generally most desirable. Drag cars tend to use aluminium for max performance and because the rods tend not to stay in the engine long anyway.

The down sides to Titanium are its cost, and if you scratch it.... Well unless you can get the scratch buffed out or something then you better throw it away.

[Mark 4]

did any of you actually read this ?

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=90426&page=1

[zentac]

There was no sign of det on my pistons or spark plugs. As for the power I was running Im unsure, it was dyno'd at 290 at the wheels on 0.8 bar boost two years earlier, but I had been running 1.2 bar and 100bhp nos for 2 years

[Louis]

Nos CAN bend rods without damage to the piston crown, (personal experience )I have done this on another engine (Toyota), NOT a VR4.
Post mortem found bent rod and damage to lower edge of cylinder bore,big end bearings looked ok (but again nos can weaken these and rod bolts also).
The rods were standard, but had been weighed and balanced, and whole reciprocating mass ( clutch, flywheel, crankshaft) had been balanced.

[Eurospec]

Take a look at these:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture137.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture138.jpg

These are our forged pistons for the 6A13T. They have been sized for the std block, but it will require a VERY light hone just to freshen up the faces.

The pistons come with floating wrist (gudgeon) pins and ring sets and will fit onto any rod. Our own forged steel rods are in transit at the moment. Pistons have ceramic coated crowns, moly coated skirts, contact reduction rings and extra oil relief holes on the control rings.

They were also made by JE.

As yet they are untested and not available for sale until we have tried them, but we do have a couple of sets here.

Cheers,

Ben.

[amsoil]

Looking good; don't you just love that exchange rate at the moment.

[Kieran]

/Drools at the Eurospec parts....

[Mark 4]

Hey Ben, can I have first dibs on the spare set ?

[psbarham]

Take a look at these:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture137.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/benh/Picture138.jpg



the first one got me drooling , then you showed the upskirt one ;) and i must say the paramedics these days are very very good

[Eurospec]

/pan 'the upskirt shot'!! :laugh:
Amazing where cameras get on the internet these days!


At the moment both sets are earmarked. Once we assemble one set into an engine if people want them we will bring in more on an untested basis if people wish, but my preference is to test them first i have to say.

Apart from that, i will give up pimping pictures of our apprentice on the web and just put more piston piccies on a pay per view site. In all serriousness though, the pistons are NICE.

Cheers,

Ben.

[psbarham]

Apart from that, i will give up pimping pictures of our apprentice on the web and just put more piston piccies on a pay per view site.

look out kleenex here i come :embarasse

i have some ex works honda touring car pistons, rods, valves(titanium) and a cam shaft in the workshop if you want some drooling material

[The Vee]

Hmmm pass the tissues PSB/pan /pan

Looking damn fine Ben

[White Lightning]

Hmm shiney ... :rolleyes3

[Mark 4]

Hey Ben, any news yet ?