Carbon Fibre Propshaft from Torqline

[phosty]

When my propshaft front UJ bust a few weeks ago I was quoted £1790.20 for a full new propshaft assembly by Mitsubishi in Aberdeen. Adding VAT and fitting would have pushed it well over £2000.

Obviously I was looking for alternatives - in the end Mo sorted me out with a second hand unit for much less and it was a doddle to fit once the car was propped up.

One option I considered was a replacing the propshaft with an aftermarket carbon unit from Torqline.

http://www.torqline.com/product_detail_38.php

uploaded/4134/1195219995.gif

After discussing with them and taking measurements it would seem that the model they do for Evo7+ would fit ours. Cost was £1200 + VAT so it would have been cheaper than one from Mitsi - but it only replaces the rear two sections of the OEM propshaft, you still need a healthy front section. So it wouldn't have helped me.

Anyway, just in case anybody feels like blinging their ride with a carbon fibre propshaft I thought I would share the info. Apparently of all the models Torqline sell the Evo ones give the biggest gains (presumably power / response).

emails to Torqline below:

[phosty]

Emails to/from Torqline:


Hello Phil,



Thanks for your reply.

You are correct to assume that the offset in the flange yoke UJ is not important as we know the offsets of our own components and cut the tube appropriately in order to replicate the overall length as opposed to individual component lengths.

As we discussed on the telephone last week, we can only provide you with a propshaft at standard price if one of our standard propshaft lengths will suit your vehicle. It appears from your measurement of 1301mm (dimension “D”) that our standard Evo 7-9 RS propshaft will fit your vehicle. Our 7-9 RS propshaft is designed to an installation length of 1305mm at dimension D. You are correct to point out that some compensation for axial plunge is provided by the centre bearings and the reverse sleeve yoke which slides on the transfer box output shaft. For this reason we can be confident that our standard Evo 7-9 RS propshaft will fit your car.

The cost of this unit will be £1200 plus VAT and delivery. Delivery within the UK is £10. Delivery will be 3-4 days from receipt of payment, delivery address and contact details will be required at the point of order. Our preferred method of payment is via credit card (not American Express).

Best regards,

Jon Pethick

Project Engineer - TORQline Products

CTG Ltd

Direct +44 (0)1295 221010

t +44 (0)1295 220130

f +44 (0)1295 220138

www.ctgltd.com

www.torqline.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: HOSTY, Philip (WG) [mailto:Philip.Hosty@woodgroup.com]
Sent: 22 October 2007 15:47
To: Jon Pethick
Cc: Nick Henry; Daniel Chilcott
Subject: RE: VR4 Evo Propshaft


Jon,

I was under the car at the weekend replacing the front section of my old prop-shaft due to a failed universal joint. I took measurements of the propshaft in place as per the drawing you sent me:

Dim A: N/A - Flange Type

Dim B: N/A - Flange Type

Dim C: TBA

Dim D: 1301mm

Dim E: 8mm

The PCD of the AYC/Diff flange and Mid-ship companion flange I measured as 85mm but I'm assuming that is actually 84.9mm as per your drawing (given the accuracy of my ruler).

The spigot diameter is exactly 45mm.

The dimension from the Diff/AYC mounting face to the centre of the UJ cross looked like 43mm vs 40.5mm on your drawing but I don't think it too important that this be exactly the same?

As the Evo 6 and above AYC/Diff units are interchangeable with the housings on the Galant/Legnum VR4s I am confident there would be no problem with the Diff/AYC connection.

With regards to the most important dimension, Dim D, I measured this with a tape measure to be 130.1cm (I will check the accuracy of this tonight against my 1m ruler). However, as you may be aware the normal 3-piece propshaft has allowance for axial plunge as you refer to it by having a telescoping section between the rear two sections. This permits over 10mm of movement (+/- 5mm) front/back. I realise that this would not remain with your 1-piece carbon fibre replacement shaft but in order to allow this movement the front section of the propshaft also has allow the same movement as it is rigidly connected to the center prop-shaft section. To achieve this the shaft that enters the front transfer box has a long smooth exterior section that slides in/out of the transfer box against an oil seal. In addition the front centre bearing has rubber supports to allow the same movement so I think that the Dim D should be a match if the standard Evo 7-9 propshaft you supply is between 1296-1306mm.

Due to time constraints (and lack of a vice to hold the shaft so I could remove the M18 nut) I was unable to remove the companion flange and take apart the front centre bearing to measure the dimensions of the bearing. But if the length of Dim D looks OK I can proceed to check these also.

I have attached photos of the front section of the propshaft showing the internally (female) splined section that mates with the transfer box, the length of the rear two sections, and an overview showing the location of the two centre bearings (looking forward).

Thanks, Phil


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jon Pethick [mailto:jonp@ctgltd.co.uk]
Sent: 17 October 2007 12:34
To: HOSTY, Philip (WG)
Cc: Nick Henry; Daniel Chilcott
Subject: RE: VR4 Evo Propshaft

Hello Philip,

I agree with your comments about the type of mid-ship joint you have. Fortunately the propshaft is much easier to fit with this type of mid-ship joint as there is no need to split a universal joint cross from its yokes.

Our standard mid-ship spline bearing location diameter is 30.000 +/-0.008 designed to fit the standard Evo propshaft support bearing. The length of this bearing location is 12mm. The shaft then tapers into a straight cut spline section with 23 teeth and a major diameter of 23.8mm. There is then an M18 X 1.5 thread for the retaining nut which is 23.5mm long. If it is feasible to check these dimensions then please do so. Should these dimensions all match I think we can be fully confident our standard spline would fit.

If you have any more questions please let me know.

Best regards,

Jon Pethick

Project Engineer

CTG Ltd

Direct +44 (0)1295 221010

t +44 (0)1295 220130

f +44 (0)1295 220138

www.ctgltd.com

www.torqline.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: HOSTY, Philip (WG) [mailto:Philip.Hosty@woodgroup.com]
Sent: 17 October 2007 12:04
To: Jon Pethick
Subject: VR4 Evo Propshaft

Jon,

Thanks for that. I should be able to get the dimensions over the weekend. From a look over your drawings and a comparison with the VR4 diagrams (attached) it looks like the lower (Evo7+) propshaft has the same fittings (i.e. flange) on the driven end to connect to the front propshaft section UJ. Of course we will have to check lengths / dimensions but it looks promising. I'm sure the AYC/Diff end is the same.

One dimension that isn't mentioned on your drawings is the diameter of the centre bearing? You mentioned your product avoids the requirement for the rear centre bearing but we will still need to use the existing front centre bearing assembly. What is the diameter/length of that section of the shaft which sits inside the centre bearing?

Thanks, Phil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jon Pethick [mailto:jonp@ctgltd.co.uk]
Sent: 17 October 2007 10:27
To: HOSTY, Philip (WG)
Cc: Daniel Chilcott; Nick Henry
Subject: VR4 Evo Propshaft

Hello Philip,

Further to our conversation yesterday; please have a look at the attached drawing which displays the relevant information we require to determine the requirements of your propshaft.

With reference to the drawing please confirm that the differential flange yoke PCD is 84.9mm and the diameter of the differential mounting holes (“dimension-E”).

The front section of the standard propshaft should be of the spline yoke type (see fig. 1) or spline companion flange (see fig. 2). Please provide the dimensions called for on the drawing for the relevant layout. Please ensure that Dimension-B or Dimension-D (depending on the relevant layout) is taken with particular accuracy (+/-1.0mm). This is necessary as there is no compensation in our propshaft for axial plunge.

As I discussed with you yesterday, should one of our standard propshafts fit your vehicle then price for 1 propshaft will be £1,200 + VAT, delivery depending on stock levels. However if a bespoke design is required this price will be higher.

Any photos of your current propshaft that you could take whilst doing this check will also be useful to confirm the required layout of your propshaft.

I await your reply.

Best regards,

Jon Pethick

Project Engineer

CTG Ltd

Direct +44 (0)1295 221010

t +44 (0)1295 220130

f +44 (0)1295 220138

www.ctgltd.com

www.torqline.com

[matsondawson]

Cha-ching.... added to my wishlist... but $3000 nz... it's way at the bottom...
Now $1200 nz, I could handle.
You UK fellas have it easy.

I wonder what an Aluminium would cost

[phosty]

Some more info on weights from Torqline that I forgot to post up:

5.1 kg - Standard VR4 Propshaft Front section
10.9 kg - Standard VR4 Propshaft Rear section (2-piece including Lobro joint - excluding companion flange)
3.9 kg - Torqline 1-piece Carbon Fibre (Evo 7+) rear section replacement.

So the carbon fibre unit would remove 7 kg from the rotating mass of the drivetrain. Seems like that compares quite well to lightening flywheels, pulleys, rims etc?

I didn't ask about the cost of Aluminium ones because I didn't realise they did them too at the time.

emails below:



Hello Philip,



Thanks for the efforts you have gone to in measuring your own car and placing a post on the VR4 forum. From your feedback we can be confident that our propshaft will fit the VR4 Evo.



In answer to your question the weight of our Evo propshaft is approximately 3.9kg. This includes everything on the drawing we sent to your minus the mid-ship companion flange, nut and washer.



Best regards,



Jon Pethick

Project Engineer

CTG Ltd

Direct +44 (0)1295 221010

t +44 (0)1295 220130

f +44 (0)1295 220138

www.ctgltd.com

www.torqline.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: HOSTY, Philip (WG) [mailto:Philip.Hosty@woodgroup.com]
Sent: 20 November 2007 08:33
To: Jon Pethick
Cc: Daniel Chilcott; Nick Henry
Subject: VR4 Evo Propshaft



Jon,



Sorry for not getting back sooner, it has been a busy month. I finally got around to checking the mid-ship spline dimensions for the VR4 propshaft. It proved difficult to split the spline companion flange from the spline - well, with the tools I had available anyway. I can confirm the the length of the bearing location to be 12mm. As you indicated this tapers down to a straight cut spline section with 23 teeth, diameter 23.8mm. The length of the spline section (from the edge of the bearing location to the end of the splines) was measured to be 50mm - you did not give a dimension for this. The thread on the end is indeed 23.5mm long however I was unable to measure the thread - the nut itself required a 27mm socket but I don't know if that means an M18 x 1.5 thread.



See attached photo.



Finally, can you tell me the weight of the complete replacement shaft? I will compare with the old one.



As the Torqline propshaft only replaces the rear two sections it does not actually help my problem with the front universal joint - I have had to find an alternative solution. As such I personally will not be purchasing one from you at the moment however I have posted details of your product on the owners club forum (www.clubvr4.com) so it is possible that other may be interested.



Thank you for your time,



Regards, Phil Hosty

[phosty]

And finally I had some thoughts on the potential downsides of losing one of the UJs in the propshaft with the use of a 1-piece replacement. Since our drive train is very similar to that posted by Jeff Lucius on stealth316.com I asked him for his thoughts. Seems that the US experience of replacement propshafts is a bit hit-or-miss:



Hi Philip,

It is obvious that you have given this issue a lot more thought and study than I have. Since I have little interest in going to a single or 2-piece propeller shaft to replace our 3-piece system, I really have not studied the UJ issue. Reading on the message boards (team3s.org, 3si.org) what other owners have experienced, it seems that replacement 1-pc or 2-pc shafts seems to be hit or miss regarding whether they rotate smoothly or cause a vibration at some speed. I wonder if the UJ issue could be a cause?

Most owners choose to install a 1-pc or 2-pc prop shaft because the replacement shaft is often made of aluminum or carbon fiber, and so are quite a bit lighter than the original. However, while less rotating mass theoretically means better torque transfer and lower power loss, in practice cars with the factory prop shaft perform in every venue just as well as, if not better than, cars with the lightened, aftermarket version.

That being said, I recommend getting a shop to replace the UJs if needed and rebalance the stock shaft. If performance is what you want, Sterling could be better spent in other items.

Good luck on all your projects.

Jeff Lucius, http://stealth316.com
----- Original Message -----
From: HOSTY, Philip (WG)
To: jlucius@stealth316.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] AWD page



Hi,

I have a Mitsubishi Legnum VR4 1996. It has an AWD system very similar to that of Mitsubishi 3000GT as described very clearly by you on your website (http://www.stealth316.com/2-awd6.htm).

See attached diagram

<<Propshaft Legnum VR4.JPG>>
It is actually practically identical to that found on later models of the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. There is a company here in the UK offering carbon fibre replacement propshafts (www.torqline.com) for these vehicles. Apparently they only replace the rearward two sections including the Lobro joint - the front section is retained.

After reading up on Universal Joints in general (Wikipedia etc) I discovered that UJ's need to be installed in pairs and phased in relation to the first U-joint in order cancel the changing angular velocity. Looking at the Mitsubishi propshafts and assuming the Lobro joint acts in the same manner this means there are two pairs of UJ thus minimising the problem of jerky rotation between the transfer box and the rear differential. Your website doesn’t elude to the issue of changing angular velocity with UJ's.

However, if the rear two sections were to be replaced with a single solid section (carbon fibre or otherwise) doing away with the Lobro joint do you feel this would introduce a varying rotation into the rear differential?

Or, if the Lobro joint does not cancel out the varying rotation that exists due to the 3 regular universal joints then the replacement shaft would not make matters any worse (and due to the drop in weight would likely improve vibration and inertia in the drive train).

I was just wondering if this product seems like an expensive lemon or if it does actually have some merit. Have you come across similar products in the US for your cars?

Thanks for producing such an in depth collection of reference material for the Mitsubishi cars. Stealth316 is fantastic when trying to figure out how my own car ticks - I wouldn’t want to be without it.

Thanks, Phil

[Kieran]

Wow! You've done a lot of diggging on this and unearthed some great information!

Have a rep point or two!:scholar: