Fuel System & Injector Upgrades

[mpau009]

Okay... so iv been trawling through the depths of CVR4, since iv decided that an injector upgrade is something i really should do to get the best out of my single turbo plan. But frankly my brain hurts:rolleyes3 , so i am farming out the questions to you lot.

What i have gathered so far is:
-that evo injectors wont work as they arent the required high impedence.
-that valmes has made use of a sard 530cc injector, which seems to match a toyota part number in my searches, and needed spacing.:inquisiti
-that no one seems to have an 'off the shelf' injector for this engine

SOO..

Given that i know sweet **** all about this side of things i am after advice as to where to go, where to look and what the best options are, given they are pricey little things to buy, and i dont want to end up stuck with something useless.

Is it best to completely redo the fuel rails, or find something that can work with what iv got?

Iv already got a Walbro intank pump as per a lot of other members, and a sard knock-off FPR, are injectors going to be needed? and is around the 530-550cc range about right given that the engine isnt going to be forged (ie. not going for silly boost levels)

Any advice about setups that are actually installed and working would be ideal, but i dont even really know anyone out north/west auckland who can take the time to sell me the right bits or steer me in the right direction.

and lastly to be a pain, /Hmmm the MAP2 has the option of controlling an auxilliary injector, i dont quite get what they mean with that, or how it would work, but is that a potential option? or just focus on upgrading the stock ones?

Heaps of questions as you can see, hence the panadol/pan , so feel free to chuck your two cents worth in:2thumbsup

[bradc]

the 390cc injectors on my car are at their limits (stock vr-4 ones) I would say that if you are tuning it anywhere up to 220kw atw then you don't need to worry about the injectors. Anything more than that and it is probably worth changing to bigger ones. 530cc would get you up to about 290-300kw ATW

[bradc]

ohh, an auxilary injector would be one placed in the throttle body that would unevenly spray fuel in the intake manifold to whatever cylinders the most air flows to - not a good option!

[Gly]

you could always get evo injectors and use a ballest to make them high impedance,

you may/will loose some effeciency?
also from what ive read evo injectors tend to be underated, by around 30cc(ish)
if your not going for super high numbers, and dont want to spend a fortune on injectors/custom rail, you may want to consider doing this,

also slyline injectors are high impedance, just have no idea on fitment for these.

[bradc]

evo injectors are easy to find, but they typically only come in sets of 4 (for obvious reasons!)

[zentac]

Ive just upgraded to 530cc ones, all you have to do is get a spare set of the little black spacers and use 2 spacers rather than one (with longer bolts) and the fuel rails will fit the new injectors.

In doing this you will need to either rebend the joining pipe or I replaced it with this. The GTO and 3000GT Fuel Rail Jumper Kit, again the pipe needs slight modifications. http://www.evilempireperformance.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_26&products_id=34 as that little joining pipe between the rails is a know "bottlekneck" on GTO's so I cant Imagine ours is any better. Ive also added a FPR and goodridge hoses to it and then replaced my fueltank and ran new hoses down the length of the car.

[bradc]

are those the sard 63516 or something ones?

[zentac]

yeah thats the ones.

[mpau009]

Excellent! :afro: Thats the sort of reply i was after, Thanks guys, i think that would be the easier way to go, even if it does work out more expensive than the evo adaptation suggestion.

Now i'll have to track some down, if i import all 6 seperately then do you reckon i can dodge the import duties:P Probably have to pay 3 lots of shipping though:thinking:

[Kenneth]

Excellent! :afro: Thats the sort of reply i was after, Thanks guys, i think that would be the easier way to go, even if it does work out more expensive than the evo adaptation suggestion.

Now i'll have to track some down, if i import all 6 seperately then do you reckon i can dodge the import duties:P Probably have to pay 3 lots of shipping though:thinking:

I'll try remember to bring your loom on Sunday.

Just making sure though, you are not going to change the injectors till AFTER the turbo conversion is running eh?
While it would be nice to do it all at once, I would recommend that you get it running on standard injectors and work out any issues before changing another critical component of the system.

[Turbo_Steve]

If you're only going marginally over the standard injectors, there is nothing wrong with a 5th, and possibly a 6th injector: Inevitably you end up overfuelling with them, but you're going to be doing that anyway with a turbo'd engine.

It's actually quite an elegant solution in some ways: your factory injectors (and probably ECU) carry on doing what they do best, until you reach a preset point (either defined by boost or by a full map on a replacement or piggyback ECU) when the additional injector(s) kick in and start to assist. And the best part is that once you're ON boost, the accuracy of fuelling you need is significantly less (unless you're trying to map to the bleeding edge, which is unlikely on a road car). It's cheaper too: you'll already have an uprated fuel pump and regulator anyway (you should have it with bigger injectors) so you only spend out on some fuel hose, a tapped inlet pipe and a topfeed injector...say a single 600cc unit, on the inlet, brought in progressively against boost and RPMS hands over smoothly and works brilliantly.

Previously used a REBICIII and 1400cc injector on an extremely heavily modified impreza. It drove nicely, and went on to dyno at 590bhp. If I were to do it again, I would use a smaller injector, as we never went above 50% duty on the big one, and had already put 4x600ccs on the engine.

Injector, driver, Rebic III, Simulator, piping and additional regulator (just to be safe) was $440USD from wonderful ebay. A smaller injector and no reg should be circa $320, you just need to get that inlet pipe made up.

Just a thought: really depends what you're doing with other mods, ECU, etc etc etc.
I'm not a big fan of piggybacks, but if you are really only JUST going a bit further, this buys you that extra margin without compromising on the cars normal running.

[VR4 MAD]

Mike, if your feeling really flush with money, PROS Engineering in Japland have 555cc and 590cc injectors for the 6A13. They are about $350 NZD each (assuming you can still get them). I can give you a link to their listing if you want.

Not sure of the Sard injector cost each but that's a lot of money for the PROS ones.

Just thought you might need that as a comparison to what you're considering.

Hope that helps.

/toycar

[bradc]

normally the sard ones are around $220-250 each

[valmes]

I bought them for 600$ (USD) for a set of 6.

www.rhdjapan.com should have them.

The preferred route is to get something like 12 injectors and flow test them to get 2 sets of evenly flowing injectors... slight difference in flow is ok and can be corrected by EMU.

That's why I don't like the idea of auxiliary injector supplying fuel through the throttle body... throttle body and air intake manifold are designed to allow even distribution of Air, not fuel... so you might end up leaning some cylinders, while getting rich AFR in others. I just don't want to risk an engine.

Your bet is to get either HI injectors or get LI ones and a resistor pack.

[mpau009]

I'll try remember to bring your loom on Sunday.

Just making sure though, you are not going to change the injectors till AFTER the turbo conversion is running eh?
While it would be nice to do it all at once, I would recommend that you get it running on standard injectors and work out any issues before changing another critical component of the system.

Yeah, that would be good. The plan at this stage is to get the turbo in and running using the MAF as you say to check that all is well, then the plan is to change the injectors and ditch the MAF and take it straight to a dyno..

Iv given up on the idea of trying to tune it myself, i was happy to have a minor play around when it had stock turbos, but i am sure its beyond me now, so i figure they can do the whole lot, basically i didnt want to pay for tuning with the Td05 just to have to re-work it later when the injectors become the hold up.

[mpau009]

Mike, if your feeling really flush with money, PROS Engineering in Japland have 555cc and 590cc injectors for the 6A13. They are about $350 NZD each (assuming you can still get them). I can give you a link to their listing if you want.

Not sure of the Sard injector cost each but that's a lot of money for the PROS ones.

Just thought you might need that as a comparison to what you're considering.

Hope that helps.

/toycar

Sounds like they are probably worth more than my car at this point!!

I think i should be able to get the Sard injectors mentioned for similar money to Valmes, which i can live with:thinking:

[mpau009]

I bought them for 600$ (USD) for a set of 6.

www.rhdjapan.com should have them.

The preferred route is to get something like 12 injectors and flow test them to get 2 sets of evenly flowing injectors... slight difference in flow is ok and can be corrected by EMU.



That is a good idea, if someone wanted to go in with me, otherwise i doubt i will be able to find them at a good price in NZ. Is it usually an issue with the flow rates, or is that just a precaution taken?

[zentac]

Mine were £350 for 6 from www.flat4online.co.uk

[Turbo_Steve]

Regarding the single injector thing, don't forget that once your big injector is in, you essentially use the injectors in the inlet to "trim" the fuelling per cylinder.

This rather assumes you're mapping on a dyno and watching individual cylinder temps, but even then it's still cheaper than replacing the factory units.


Don't get me wrong, I'd far prefer to replace the factory ones, or (if going for silly power in a road car) add a second bank, but the costs can be very silly.
For a marginal increase, I just like the single injector solution...you're effectively just giving the factory setup some more headroom.



Valmes, been trying to PM you but your box is full? Is this the legendary 65535 message error?

[valmes]

Something is strange on my current setup...
SARD800 low imp injectors refuse to work with a resistor pack, but work fine as is...

Got it to idle ok with a resistor pack, but car didn't want to start no matter what we did... No fuel on start up!

Removed resistor pack. Entered simple "Before" (390cc, 1.1 ms) and "After" (800cc, 0.85 ms) injector correction in EMU and a bit of airflow correction... it started right up. Now works like stock.

PS: I always forget to empty the PM box... sorry. Now it should be fine.

[vr4n_h-town]

Can anyone tell me if i can fit evo 5 injectors to my mitsi vr4 with an evo 0 engine and ecu, everything is standard. ( obviously i'm gueseing i'll have to get a bigger fuel pump and reg

[Gly]

yes they will but you need to have your ecu chipped and reprogrammed/tuned for them or it will just over fuel.

your better off one www.mmc.org.nz or www.msport.co.nz

this forum is for the 96 and newer 8th gen vr4.