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Caveman
04-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Hi guys,

Firstly, happy new year!

I, like many of us, have been spending some time looking into getting my car as safely and as cheaply as possible up to 400 bhp.

As we all know, the key restrictor to more power is those blummin pissy little TD03 turbos that we have. The obvious answer is TD04, or TD05s, but upgrading to those is neither simple or cheap!

I decided therefore that improving the TD03 so that its capable of running more boost is possibly the answer. I don't want silly power as I'm not out to win races or challenge Skylines, but I do want the car to feel that it's running to its true potential.

I phoned round most of the big turbo houses over the last few days with little interest and then today I might have hit a result... Spoke to Turbo Dynamics in Dorset today and they said that if they can source the parts, then they should easily be able to rebuild the TD03s with custom parts as hybrids to run at least 400bhp, maybe more. What they do need though in order to try is the turbos to study so that they can see what they're up against.

If this works, then we will be able to run our VR4s without significant work or cost at the elusive 400bhp that we all crave!!!

I was quoted that a normal rebuild for 2 turbos would cost about £1000 all in.

So, the big question is - Does anyone have a pair of VR4 TD03s lying around so that we can suss this out?

Answers on a postcard...

Cheers,

Mart.

Gly
04-01-2008, 09:38 PM
its been done before,

2 members here have had there td03's tweeked, (1 by one of nz's leading turbo guys)

they cant handle it,
the input shaft nut spins off, and chews up the turbos?

brad will be along shortly, to confirm??


and well 1000 pound or euro??
isnt cheap, i could get a garret 3540 for that cash, and have a good single turbo setup

bradc
04-01-2008, 09:44 PM
yep, they just can't handle it. The housings are too small anyway, all of the inlets and outlets are tiny, there isn't much point to upgrading the stock ones

SGHOM
04-01-2008, 10:07 PM
So, the big question is - Does anyone have a pair of VR4 TD03s lying around so that we can suss this out?

t.

I had a pair of perfectly good turbo's in my car boot for months. last week I chucked them in the skip. :speechles /pan /pan

Nick Mann
04-01-2008, 10:22 PM
You can have them clipped for slightly better flow at higher revs. But they destroy themselves pretty quickly. Mine had been tweeked before I bought the car and they were dead less than a year later.

mpau009
04-01-2008, 11:59 PM
Hi guys,
I, like many of us, have been spending some time looking into getting my car as safely and as cheaply as possible up to 400 bhp.

As we all know, the key restrictor to more power is those blummin pissy little TD03 turbos that we have. The obvious answer is TD04, or TD05s, but upgrading to those is neither simple or cheap!

I decided therefore that improving the TD03 so that its capable of running more boost is possibly the answer. I don't want silly power as I'm not out to win races or challenge Skylines, but I do want the car to feel that it's running to its true potential.
If this works, then we will be able to run our VR4s without significant work or cost at the elusive 400bhp that we all crave!!!

I was quoted that a normal rebuild for 2 turbos would cost about £1000 all in.


Hi Mart, i reckon youd be similar money to do a single turbo conversion, versus 1000 pounds for the turbo rebuilds. I am keeping tabs on my TD05 conversion costs, but havent put anything down in excel yet.

But if you discount the cost of the supporting mods for that power level, which i am assuming you would be considering:

- Fuel management
- Fuel Supply
- Intercooler and re-do pipe work

As long as you arent paying someone to do the work, i think it would be similar. Granted you will need to go to an external wastegate as the Td05 needs to be rotated to fit nicely, but a decent second hand TD05 and wastegate cost me $600 NZD, which is barely 250 pounds i think?, the rest of the cost bar the above is the piping and flanges, as well as some oil lines, water lines and fittings/blanking plugs etc, so i would imagine its similar money, for a setup that has more potential down the track in terms of upgrades.

As soon as i started having a decent look at the costs vs benefits, bearing in mind the mods /costs i already had planned it seemed simple.

Whether you go for TD05 or T3/T4 hybrid is another question:thinking:

Caveman
10-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Hi guys,

SOrry it's taken me a while to respond.

According to the guys at Turbo Dynamics, they would replace the internals of the standard turbo and possibly even machine the turbo housing if necessary to make it slightly bigger. He reckons a Garret T25's internals might fit for example.

Does anyone have a pair of old turbos that they'd be willing to donate to see if this can be done at least?

Mart.

Nick Mann
10-01-2008, 02:50 PM
I will have at some point, but I need to keep them for a few months at least. Someone must have some old ones? I gave my last ones to Ben at Eurospec.

Gowf
10-01-2008, 04:12 PM
I did have some, but they were in pieces and i left them at eurospec 6 months ago, so no chance of finding them

Ryan
11-01-2008, 12:45 AM
T3/T4 hybrid is quite commonly used in South Africa but what exactly does it mean?

Does it use the exhaust wheel from one and the compressor wheel from the other?

bradc
11-01-2008, 02:25 AM
Ryan - exactly :)

Caveman
11-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Update.

I spoke to the guy at turbo developments today and he reckons he can machine out the VR4 TD03 housing and fit a TD04 inside. He was quite confident that he could do it.

I still need a couple of guinea pig turbos though as my car is a daily driver.

We should at least see is this can be done - this may be the easy way to 400bhp! No manifold work or fiddling required - just a straight bolt-on.

Any turbo donors out there?

Mart.

Nutter_John
11-01-2008, 02:35 PM
I may have some soon , need to decide what i'm doing first

And they will not be able to fit td04 internals in ours as the difference in size is two great , but the gtr25 may be the option

Caveman
11-01-2008, 04:57 PM
Another update.

Ok have spoken to Majestic turbos in the US who have experience of ugrading our turbos, as they are the same turbos that are fitted to the YAMAHA XJ-650 Seca motorbike.

The guy who does the rebuilding wasn't there, but they are going to get back to me with options as they've done this before. The main issue is with the tiny diameter of the turbo outlet and with the thin compressor shaft. Running a larger compressor can easily be done (and hence more boost) but the std shaft's life may be compromised.

Anyway, it looks like there IS light at the end of the tunnel and more powerful turbos can be run without having to go custom water/oil lines, custom manifolds, custom downpipes or relocating anything.

The future's bright! :D

Mart.

Turbo_Steve
11-01-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm also of the belief that the TD03s can be hybridised: we've built some weird freaky units in the past that were surprisingly effective.

I'd be looking at the BMW TD03s, and the TD04-9bs, which my engineering friend seems confident can be "made to work"

I've mentioned the compressor nut coming loose, which he seems to think is a problem with the shaft heating rather than anything more serious. He suggested finding the right Ball Bearing cartridge would solve a lot of issues.

Kieran
11-01-2008, 11:36 PM
Anyway, it looks like there IS light at the end of the tunnel and more powerful turbos can be run without having to go custom water/oil lines, custom manifolds, custom downpipes or relocating anything.

The future's bright! :D

Mart.

Mart - Have some rep.... It'd be great to get this one nailed. I'm not keen on all the fannying about that TD04s need, but I would certainly consider a set of Hybrid TD03s.:afro:

Caveman
12-01-2008, 06:29 PM
Ok, more research done.

The more I learn, the more I'm beginning to go off the idea...

Hybridising the VR4 turbo can definitely be done by boring out the housing and fitting a larger compressor wheel - I have spoken to people who are familiar with our turbos and have done just that.

The issue is longevity. The weak link in the turbo is the compressor shaft which tends to shear at higher than standard boost.

I am therefore investigating what other possibilities there are whilst maintaining the standard engine layout and manifolds. I'm convinced there must be something for us - after all, there are literally hundreds of turbos out there!

Will keep you posted with my findings. On a mission now! ;)

Mart.

pitmac
13-01-2008, 09:55 AM
Val has pointed out in the past that the 335 BMW Has a TD03-10T-4.9cm Turbo which would be a good up grade for our TD03-7T or 8G which ever it is.
Use the cartridge or just the compressor wheel and have the compressor housing machined.
BMW turbo TD03L W 10TK3-4.9 pt no 49131-07005
Check out could be what some of us are looking for.

jpnvr4
14-01-2008, 09:20 PM
Mart - Have some rep.... It'd be great to get this one nailed. I'm not keen on all the fannying about that TD04s need, but I would certainly consider a set of Hybrid TD03s.:afro:

heyyyyy! he get's a rep point 4 research ..... ok ..

I'm tryna get my turbos replaced ... so I may have 2 spare ones so pass out....
soon as I get mines let U kno

Eurospec
14-01-2008, 09:26 PM
Hello guys,

Nick, i still have your old tubs here somewhere! And Gareths although his are in bits due to trying to make a rocket powered go kart out of them. (doesnt work).

But we do have now litterally hundreds of TD04 housings and i mean hundreds. Everything from 9b's 13g's, 13t's and maybe the odd 15g. What i havent done is put any td03 bits in touch with any td04, but to be fair they dont look like they would go.

TD04 is the way really for a 'reasonable' upgrade, but as we know the manifold is the issue. TD04 with a subaru fitment can go on to a galant manifold, but its a long way away from pretty or 'engineered'. I bet money it will work though.

Cheers,

Ben.

Nick Mann
14-01-2008, 09:49 PM
Ben - I don't need them, just thought if they are lying there not doing anything, maybe someone could make better use of them? If you still need them for research, then I have no problems at all with that. That's why I gave them to you!

Scooby TD04's are on my to-do list. When I can scrape a few hundred notes togetherto buy a couple!

Eurospec
14-01-2008, 10:05 PM
Ben - I don't need them, just thought if they are lying there not doing anything, maybe someone could make better use of them? If you still need them for research, then I have no problems at all with that. That's why I gave them to you!

Scooby TD04's are on my to-do list. When I can scrape a few hundred notes togetherto buy a couple!

Gotchya mate, thats cool:afro:

I was just saying we still had them just in case anyone did fancy having a pop with them. /rally

To be fair our turbo guy basically said its a no goer. About all you can do is clip them a little to wince a bit more flow out, but basically you cant get any kind of service parts to allow you to get any bigger wheels into them.

Cheers,

Ben.

pitmac
15-01-2008, 12:13 AM
What service parts are we talking about ( to put larger comp wheel in )
If it is a overhaul kit he is talking about they are available.

Caveman
15-01-2008, 12:36 AM
Hi there,

I think I answered this is an earlier post mate.

According to the guys in the US who have experience of hybridising our turbos, a larger compressor wheel can be added, but the shafts are the weak point which shear at higher boost. That's the weak link.

The problem with turbo companies in the UK is that they're not familiar with our turbos and have very little, if any experience of what can be done. I've phoned round everyone in the phonebook practically and people either said it was a non-starter, or could only guestimate without actually having the turbos in their hands.

Both Majestic turbos and Turbo Power in the US have hybridised our TC03-06A turbos before with the above problems...

Hope that helps! :)

Mart.

Kieran
15-01-2008, 01:19 AM
Can those US companies provide rebuild kits?

Eurospec
15-01-2008, 09:44 AM
Yep you can get rebuild parts, ie service kits, meaning std seals, shafts etc. What you cant get is a larger wheel for the hot side. Theoretically you could machine the housing to put a larger wheel in, but there is so little meat on the housing that practically you cant do it.

You also cant buy 'oversize' parts such as shaft or oil seals, so effectively beefing up the innards becomes a problem. You could probably put a bigger compressor housing on it, or at least machine whats there to get a bigger wheel in, but even then you are still restricted by the small hot side.

Cheers,

Ben.

pitmac
15-01-2008, 10:03 AM
Go to USA E-Bay and one of the sellers is selling TD03 / TD04 repair kits. Even though he is in the US the kits are sent from Poland. Kits are quite complete.
By the way the shaft size of the TD03 is the same as some of the TD04's.
One thing is for sure the TD03 can take a 10T comp wheel. As seen on the BMW 335i

pitmac
15-01-2008, 10:19 AM
Of course if you are after performance the TD04 is the way to go. With unlimited choices in turbine size incl 4cm, 5cm, 6cm turbine housings. Endless compressor wheels and housings. The TD04 is fantastic . But some of us are not prepared to modify the car to the extent needed to fit these TD04's even though the possibilties with them is terrific.
For those who wish to stay with the TD03 with a slightly larger comp wheel and boost pressures up to or around .80 to .90 Bar retaining the TD03 could well be what is right for us.

MarkSanne
15-01-2008, 01:13 PM
Wouldn't it be possible to create a new custom housing that would fit straight away just like our TD03's but just so very slighty bigger it wouldn't be a problem fitting them, but alowing to use TD04 internal parts?

My father-in-law has a workshop of his own where they produce axles, bearings, joints, etc for luxury yachts and ships (in low-quantities). Any kind of metal is available to him, as well as the machines to shape any kind of material completely to desired spec.

I'm a total turbo-n00b, so please forgive me for asking/suggesting this. As you can tell, I don't even know what kind of metal is used for any part of a turbo... (yet, the topic is very interesting ofcourse).

Turbo_Steve
15-01-2008, 01:57 PM
The freakiest combination I've seen with MHI is TD06 housings and turbine, with a TD07 cartridge and compressor. Not sure what the shaft sizes were, but presumably a TD04 cartridge, compressor and housing could be mated to the TD03 turbine housing and smallest (9b?) TD04 turbine. This would effectively ensure restriction is on the hot side, and no shaft shearing nastiness, just a cap on top end power due to the flow charecteristics of the turbine. The powerband should move upwards as the turbo is able to spin faster, especially if the turbine wheel is clipped and the inlet side of the turbine housing is ported...and possibly the outlet too?

pitmac
16-01-2008, 12:54 AM
Tis is the E-Mail address of the Bloke in the US who will supply TD03 repair kits
info@scrollproducts.com
The kits are sent to you from Poland

big Al faewell
27-02-2008, 03:36 PM
hi folks im kinda new to all this turbo upgradin. its a VR4 powered FTO i have but was lookin at the viability of the TD04 from a scooby. Iv spoken to the guys doin my conversion and they say it isnt that much work, as previously said the turbo can be fitted to the galant manifold and in turn (with part of a scooby down pipe) be then connected otherwise. the only real other issues they saw was getting custom oil lines made up. they will have a better idea when its all together next week but ill let you know how it goes.

Can anyone tell me where they got there SARD 530cc injectors from Please

Alan F

Nick Mann
27-02-2008, 04:08 PM
You will have trouble fitting the TD04's into the space between the engine and the bulkhead on an FTO, AFAIK. I'm sure that was a good part of the reason that Zentac went with a big single.

I think RHD Japan do the 530cc injectors?

bradc
27-02-2008, 06:58 PM
yeah getting a 6A13TT into an FTO with just the stock turbos is a good enough acheivement. You really should be going for a single!

zentac
27-02-2008, 11:47 PM
they have a point mate.

Madhav
21-03-2008, 04:35 AM
Hi guys,

From reading this thread and looking around I actually managed to source a couple of cartridges from the new bmw 335i turbos. The guy who's selling them said he's got the turbos, but not the housings, so I'm assuming this will still work? He hasn't given me a price yet.

What exactly are all the parts needed for the operation?

Kieran
21-03-2008, 08:21 AM
What exactly are all the parts needed for the operation?

As soon as we know, we'll tell you!:inquisiti

The problem is, whilst several people have gone the TD04 route, there's not really been anyone who has played about with the TD03s to that extent. A couple of people have had them Hybridised (BradC being one) but other than that we've not really had much luck. It's not helped by the fact that most turbo/tuning shops people have tried take one look at them and announce that nothing can be done..... I am not convinced that this is the case, but I have nothing to base that opinion on.

Welcome to Club VR-4 by the way, and to uncharted turbo territory!

MarkSanne
21-03-2008, 09:26 AM
Does anyone know the measurements of both the TD03 and TD04 housings?

I'm asking because as some of you might know I have a 'hybrid' VR4 (org V6 engine out, VR4 engine in) which has already involved some cutting and welding in the firewall (=bulkhead right?) to get the first turbo fitted at all.

I don't know how much more space could be created there but it will depend on the TD04 / TD03 measurements I guess.

Madhav
21-03-2008, 09:37 PM
Ok, looks like I'm gonna be a pioneer moving into relatively uncharted territory. Hope Valmes was right in his hypothesis. I don't think this turbo cartridge is gonna cost too much anyway, I'm gonna try to get it for less than $200. So not a huge outlay, and if what he says is right, minimal mods to get it in.

Madhav
23-03-2008, 11:40 AM
The guy that offered me the cartridges still hasn't replied back, so I started looking elsewhere, however I think because the turbo comes from a new bmw, (even though it's a mitsubishi turbo) this justifies a big price hike. A Junkyard in the states just quoted me $1200 per turbo...I politely replied, "No thanks"

GalantOnly
18-02-2009, 03:21 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=350164992174

:2thumbsup

$200 for both...

bradc
18-02-2009, 06:47 AM
Completely different to our ones though unfortunately. I wonder if the intake side and the internals from those would go onto our exhaust casting?

GalantOnly
18-02-2009, 11:02 AM
Completely different to our ones though unfortunately. I wonder if the intake side and the internals from those would go onto our exhaust casting?

Well... THAT'S ME, WHO BOUGHT THEM...:inquisiti So I will be able to tell you that shortly...:scholar:

Thought that prise was good, so I can sell them again, if they are crap to fit...

bradc
18-02-2009, 10:35 PM
cool :D

GalantOnly
13-03-2009, 01:20 AM
The compressor wheel look a bit bigger on BMW, thou...
uploaded/50252/1236903516.jpg
uploaded/50252/1236903553.jpg
But those catridges are really different...:( Oil and cooling piping from VR4 will NEVER fit those... So direct fit - not.
uploaded/50252/1236903602.jpg
uploaded/50252/1236903641.jpg

Kieran
13-03-2009, 01:22 AM
Is it me, or are the BMW units smaller?

GalantOnly
13-03-2009, 01:34 AM
Is it me, or are the BMW units smaller?

You're right...:) And we all thought, that it was impossible... But from some angles, they're acually smaller.../yes

BMW's looks more compact, but compressor housing is bigger...
uploaded/50252/1236904670.jpg

bradc
13-03-2009, 05:11 AM
Largely the same then which is a bit disappointing.

Ryan
13-03-2009, 06:04 AM
Well they are both TD03's so not a hell of a lot was going to be much different I imagine.

Johny
13-03-2009, 07:30 AM
how much spool time do you think youd have on a td08?

scott.mohekey
13-03-2009, 07:34 AM
Hours?

Turbo_Steve
13-03-2009, 12:35 PM
On a SINGLE TD08? You'd probably get it spooled up by around 5500rpms, maybe a bit earlier, but you'd be unlikely to reach max power until 9000rpms. TD08 is BIG sumbitch....more than twice the flow of a TD05-16G!!!

I've seen one on heavily modifed 14.5L cummins engine (racing lorry) with variable geometry, and that didn't spool until 3800rpms!!!!

scott.mohekey
13-03-2009, 10:16 PM
What about four td025s? lol, I happen to have four of them sitting in my garage.

Ryan
13-03-2009, 11:03 PM
uploaded/50107/1236981815.gif

zentac
13-03-2009, 11:35 PM
What about four td025s? lol, I happen to have four of them sitting in my garage.


Dont be silly, if your going to do that you would want 6 :D

scott.mohekey
13-03-2009, 11:46 PM
Dont be silly, if your going to do that you would want 6 :D

There's already two td03s in there! lol

bradc
13-03-2009, 11:50 PM
Now that would be fun, especially if you got them working like a mark iv supra

scott.mohekey
13-03-2009, 11:54 PM
All four of them? That was the original plan.. not sure if I will follow through with it though, all the valving is quite complicated.

GalantOnly
14-03-2009, 03:25 PM
uploaded/50252/1237040610.jpg
Now... Will that be clever to replace Mitsu compressor wheel with slightly larger BMW one? The housing will need some machining, but not much...

uploaded/50252/1237040700.jpg

shrew
14-03-2009, 10:27 PM
OK, whilst things are going silly

4 turbo's, 6 turbo's, well i didn't start it!

and, if throwing money away seems like a good idea, then throw it in this sort of direction.

26452

26453

this is a 2.5 litre subaru, still only a flat 4, and running nothing like the final set up target, just barely running and fuelling so far.

the result, 620bhp on just 1.5 bar and puny injectors and ignition!

ive seen with my own the titanic turbo that will end up in this beast, and it will put the developers and my good friends, AREA52 Motorsport properly on the map as 1000bhp engine builder and tuners.

so, still think more is better?, turbo's i mean?????

i think it over complicates things if you're reaching for high bhp targets, the plumbing for this set up with 2 external wastegates and intercoolers that put a chill on mars is bad enough, snd the heat build up in a vr4 front end is so sapping as stock, don't make more hurdles.....

shrew

bradc
15-03-2009, 01:23 AM
I bet it has no power on the normal side of 5000rpm though! A VR-4 is not really designed to be an undriveable peaky race car like that Subaru would be. That is what Mitsi make Evo's for.

A VR-4 is a thoroughbred, designed for brilliant all round performance. Most people want to stay with the excellent low engine speed characteristics and be able to come on boost very early and to make the car an excellent car to live with every day. For that style of car, a pair of modified TD03's, TD04's or GT2554R's are the best option.

If you really want to make a VR-4 a power house, bolt on two 500hp turbos. It will spool better than that Subaru engine and it won't blow to pieces either like all Subaru engines either.

shrew
15-03-2009, 01:49 AM
oooh!

harsh!

admittedly, a single large turbo takes more revs to spool up towards its most advantageous speed, but, a well prepped motor and ALL the right bits can make them driveable daily at silly horsepower, although this is obviously going to stretch that theory at 600 and more from a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder!

my point though really brad, was to comment that if things are going to get creatively dreamy, i.e talk of more than two turbo's and some of the other suggestions that appear to financially uneconomical and pretty difficult for no major gain, you might as well go the whole hog and be down right daft!

just like this scooby is / will be.

BUT, to say that it will blow up like ALL subaru engines do, is a little harsh, but may well be the result of your own or known bitter experience.

I have had nothing but good results with Subaru, and have found that if treated like all jap performance engines, i.e Minor Marvels from Miniscule Cubic Capacity, and tuned and prepped accordingly, they will respond extremely well and for probably the least financial outlay until you get to the silly figures again.

There are plenty of folk on this forum who have blown and dead motor experience, and they haven't been pushing the envelope that much compared to Evo or STi capabilities.

I love all the jap stuff, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota / Lexus etc etc, i think they're all superb, but they will all equally drop to bits at a moments notice if all sorts and manner of bits are bolted on without proper planning and product knowledge.

So, to get back on topic and off my soap box, my point again was that if youre going to get silly, get Reeeeearly Silly!

oh, yeah, and that a single turbo set up is likely to be easier than the early thread conversation of expensive modification of twin's for comparitively little gains in real terms, but yes, day to day driveability has normally got to be taken into consideration.

there, were both right, i think!

shrew

Turbo_Steve
15-03-2009, 11:33 AM
Definitely agree with Shrew on the Subaru engine front: I've been involved in some seriously cutting edge EJ257 builds that have lasted and lasted and lasted, all way above 500bhp. Now, if you'd said subaru gearboxes, I would have to agree with you: even the 6-speeders can't take much abuse. The 5 speeders are made of chocolate. In fact, the toughest boxes seem to be the auto.

Shrew, whilst I agree that a big, bloody silly turbo is the easiest route to big bhp, wait until that 1000bhp car is finished and then try driving it. For 1000bhp they will have had to lower the compression ratio and gone for some wild cams, so off boost that car will drive like a 1200cc engine: not nice. Whilst it can be mapped around to some extent, unless you have some seriously cunning variable valve timing fitted, wild cams will always compromise your low-end driveability as you shift torque up the rev range. Honda have tried to get around this with VTEC to some extent, but their engines are still lower on torque"off cam" than you would expect, as VTEC can't make big enough changes to the timing profile.

A pair of twins will almost always spool quicker. And, bear in mind, the nature of this thread was modification without opening the engine....what can we simply bolt on for similar spool but a bit more power.
I'm not sure what a quad turbo setup would achieve...there won't be enough gas to run a turbo-per-two-cylinder setup, and the turbos are too small to run in parallel: as you added more turbos, the ones already spooled would simply be stalled by the additional compressor backpressure.....no advantage running them sequentially either. If you coupled TD025s with TD05-16gs in a twin sequential setup you'd see awesome spool and good peak power...but what a total bind to set up!! Easier to do a single TD03 and a single TD05-20G or similar...or maybe a TD06!

So, yes, I kinda thing we're all right TBH.

swinks
15-03-2009, 05:37 PM
I'll try to contact with that "Scrollproducts" company, as they claim they doing hybrides.
They are from Poland so it'd be no problem to speak about any details for me (polish is my first language).
From their website it seems that they are targetting mostly german cars. That TD03 may be BMW one.

shrew
15-03-2009, 06:02 PM
yep

i'm with you 100% Steve, good theory, good plan.

and reinforces my point that multiple (2+ ) turbo's would just be a nightmare, but also bloomin expensive!

i only even brought up the scooby to boast the extreme possiblities of a single turbo set up and relative ease of doing so, with a comparitively small engine too.

i wasn't suggesting that this is route anyone should take, and not considering day to day driveablity for sure.

however, i think for a driveable 2.5 v6 if your target was less than around 400wbhp, id stick with a twin set up, not sequential, just hybrid or much better spool and final volume, but, for in excess of 500wbhp, i'd probably look at going single but yep, driveability starts to become an issue again.

this is the undecided conundrum though i suppose eh, and i don't know what your real life target is?

my final twopenneth today will be this though, and Steve may back me up on this also?

again from Subaru experience, i have learnt the failings of pushed TD turbo's, and if and whenever possible ive poreferred to junk the TD altogether and fit the later VF rollerball range of turbines.

they are bloody reliable, spool up free and easy and are a doddle to map for, and not only that, will the simplest of roatations to the housing they can either be a straight swap or a very simple mod / fit in place of TD's.

I know that to swap for small turbos like a pair of TD03's would be difficult to retain an identical spool up with mid and top gains, but if youre talking of modded and increased volume td03, then you're on the border of a TD04 anyway, and ive succesfully swapped td04's for VF range stuff very simply, and with very very good results.

maybe this is a better way to spend the money?

i don't have any spool and capacity charts in front of me, but i'm sure someone will, and if they could compare the small TD stuff to later VF range you might just find an ideal solution for much less work and money.

whats are your thoughts on this steve?

plus, nice to see you also have a 300zx mate, keeping the VG30 alive and kicking is simpler than these i feel eh, and i don't suppose youre anywhere near Nottingham or Newark are you/ (sorry to get cross clubbed!)

cheers

shrew

PS - PM me steve if you want ot talk zx stuff some time, cos funnily enough were approaching the point in this thread where i once considered very similar plans for my own ZX-TT.

Turbo_Steve
15-03-2009, 11:32 PM
Ah the VF turbos are brilliant if you can find them cheaply....however getting a decent matched set for a VR4 might be a struggle? Not sure.
A pair of VF24s would do a sterling job on these engines....not sure on the space issues, though, but you do have a valid point, that they mate to the Subaru up-pipe, and as such should be as easy to swap as a TD04. What an absoloutely brilliant suggestion!!!!

PM on it's way....but the bad news is that the Zed is that it unfortunately met it's end in a drainage ditch just up the road from my house...at about 40mph. The moral of the story is twofold: 1) if your insurance company don't ask about mods...it means they won't cover you if they are fitted: it's your job to tell them they're on there. 2) if it says on your medication "Do not drive" then they're not kidding. I miss that car.

shrew
16-03-2009, 12:32 AM
thank you for the kind words steve!

i think the vf 's are great turbos, and as i may have hinted at, it is a plan ive contemplated with my zx already, which in essence would be a similar task as this.

to be honest, i'm pretty sure that there is more room in the vr4 hood to do this than in the Zed, so i think it'd be quite do-able.

I agree with you steve that the vf24 in particular would be a prize choice of turbo's, not just for spool and size, but also the unbeatable way that they will cope will rigourous boost levels too, which will mean that you will have the versatility of running low boost levels for day to day stuff, but reliable handling of rubber shredding violence too! Great!

If my memory serves correctly, the vf24 was fitted to (JDM) STi Version 4's, so you'd be looking at 97 or later i think. the Version 3's before it ran the vf22 and 23 depending on origination, and are still worth considering and possibly more plentiful, but if 24's can be found, BUY EM!

Considering the STi's have devleloped almost 280bhp since Version 2 from just a 2.0 flat 4, AND spool up real nicely too, two of these babies could be a real hoot in a vr4, and not too difficult to plumb for either.

a good aftermarket fmic would be advised, and would be easier to plumb back to aswell i think.

could i be bold enough to offer this as the ideal solution for your quandry, ha ha!

NO, i'm not that cocky, but i do think it's as good as i can come up with at this time on a sunday night!

what do you lot think, and where are those spool and capacity charts someone???

shrew

STEVE - soz to hear of the Zed's demise, always very sad that. Well, if you ever need your fix of VG30 power, just holla. Your more than welcome to come on over, chew the fat, as much tea as you can drink, a good egg butty if the birds have been busy, and maybe even a spin in the Big Red Zed!

shrew
18-03-2009, 12:06 AM
Well

at the risk of talking to myself, i think i have a better solution than above!

I rode over to my good friends at Area52 today, and queried them about this turbo replacement quandry.

They agreed with me to a point, the VF2 range would be good, very good, with great spool up, and a very good handling of very high boost levels, power output, but retain good low down driveability.

however, they came up with just as good a turbo, but easier to get hold of, and thats the vf3 range, notably the vf34, maybe even a 35.

these are fitted to uk and import new age wrx's, and as such are very available at very reasonable prices. they should require little modification, if any to fit where our piffling tubs go, and ive probably justbtalked myself into finding some vr34's!

hope this helps, let us all know how you get on.

cheers, shrew

ps - i also loosely agreed a dyno day which i'm gonna put a post up for, so lets see who's got what eh!!!

AlanDITD
18-03-2009, 12:31 AM
Great info :) would give rep but dont know how to

Just had a look on ebay if im looking at the right things, then there are quite a few of these turbos kicking around.

How much work would actually be involved to replace them? Are we talking custom downpipes ect, or can the orignal be modified to fit etc etc.

Not really that interested in doing this to my own (yet) but always nice to understand whats possible

Louis
18-03-2009, 12:38 AM
The VF34's are good (also ball bearing, so spool up is quicker), only prob is that they are about £700 - £800 new each, plus you need to do the same adaptions/bits as for the TD04's.
A lot of the Subaru guys remove the td04's to fit the VF34's, as they are a straight swap for the td04's, so it's probably easier to pick up a pair of td04's at a better price. (if cost was a limiting factor)

shrew
18-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Hi Alan

well, to quickly follow the thread through, the adaptation route goes alittle like this...

our stock turbos, t25's, can be easily swapped for TD03's, which can be modded internaly for better volume and speed.

TD03's are, i think, a straight swap fitment, no modified downpipes required, however, the same turbo design number doesn't mean the same turbo, you also have to know the application it was desgined for.

The biggest difference can be the direction that the inlet and outlet point in, which can sometimes be changed by simply dismantling the compressor housing and rotating the two sections to piont in the right direction for your requirements, and locking it all back together again, job done.

TD03's, are normally the same design style and direction as TD04's, inparticular the TD04's from UK Subaru WRX's, MY93 - 99, or the same years Imported WRX Wagons which also run the TD04, but not the same years Imported WRX Saloons which run the bigger TD05 16g and would probably lack quick and early spool up but would give better top end flow and power.

So, knowing what the scooby lads do when they want to improve their TD04, or even TD05 fitment, is get a VF range turbo in there.

The VF turbos from later model years is exactly the same fitment and direction as TD04, so it stand s that if the TD03 fits, the TD04 fits, and so the VF range will also fit, with minimal modification if any (I think!)

The huge bonus is the refinement and reliability of VF turbo's, they are near enough bomb proof, and rarely, can spool up very early and quickly, but also hold big boost levels for good top end power and hang on.

and, are readily available...

perfect!

well there's my theory, and i think the best i'm likely to come up with.

cheers

shrew

Gowf
18-03-2009, 12:55 AM
Just a thought, but there are a lot of threads on turbo upgrades now. Would it be sensible to have them all in one thread? Im not saying that every single possible turbo combination should be addressed, but simply for example....Its been proven that both gto and subaru turbos can be bolted on, so maybe a thread of modifications required for each? After that maybe an indication on the potential limits on hot and cold side physical size restrictions? I know that myself and valmes have gone down the td04 route with gto and subaru respectively, although i think he's now on '05's i think.

Sorry for the thread hijack, just keeps things a little more sensible rather than having 1200threads saying the same thing, because at the end of the day, hybriding and the likes is fine but id only worry about that once youve got a cheap and nasty 2nd hand pair tof whatevers to fit first

shrew
18-03-2009, 12:57 AM
Sorry louis, you were posting as i was writing so i may have crossed your answer.

a good look round should reveal some very usable VF's for less than that, in fact i would want both for that sort of money, but being the later turbo its not the end of the world to buy used and get a rebuild kit for them which if the housing is good whould make them as good as new anyway.

i'd suggest the scooby breakers for starters, Richard at Buck's Subaru is always worth a try, and as a club member will likely let you blag some discount for 2 aswell.

cheers

shrew

AlanDITD
18-03-2009, 12:59 AM
Wow well if thats correct and logically thinking the theory sounds ok. Nice to know that there are some options for the car that may not mean everything has to be custom made to fit.

I would like to stick two the twin turbos, i like the quick spool time so this would be ideal. If they are "Straight" swap on then is it still neccary to go full standalone managment with them? Or is there any modifications that can be done to the Standard MAF sensor for the etxa air flow and use somthing like E-Manage blue or even more simple an AFC and boost controller?

Or does fitting something like the VF34 mean a full Standalone EMS and ditching the MAF sensor in favour of MAP?

Possibly noob questions that have been covered so sorry if they are.

Cheers

shrew
18-03-2009, 01:11 AM
Hi alan

although my ideas for turbos swaps hopefully will keep as close to the stock driveablity as compared to the stock turbos, the target at the beginning of tis thread was 400bhp i believe. If that is a wheel figure then that is a crank figure target of more like 500!

and certainly for anything like this target the maf, injectors, fuel pump, intercooler etc are all going to want a substantial upgrade / binning!

map2, simtek, gem, or similar will have to do the ecu job, as this sort of tune will take it way beyond the stock sensor parameters of the standard ecu computing skills, and i suspect that with these much improved turbo suggestions, it just won't cope with the change of rate .

as far as i know flashing and reprogramming of our stock ecu's is in its infancy, and so far unproven, unless someone can tell me differently, so as usual, although the turbines may fit physically relativley painlessly, the buck doesnt stop there.

i reckon £2500 should see it all done to a good standard, but then better brakes etc become the next thing on the list, and so it goes on, and on, and on.....

great fun eh?

shrew

Turbo_Steve
18-03-2009, 01:37 PM
Pretty much a "me too" post;

ECU will definitely need to be mapped, either with a piggy back, or preferably with a standalone if you're rich, or (for best results) remap the factory unit, though as Shrew points out, this hasn't been successful yet.

However, I'd suggest you would also need to budget for injectors, and possibly a fuel reg and pump. You'd probably be reaching (exceeding?) the factory MAF with a pair of VF34s...so ECU setup could get a touch more expensive than a simple remap.

Turbo_Steve
18-03-2009, 01:46 PM
Hmm...the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that a VF34 is a good plan....yes it's zero-lag on a 2.0Litre, but it'll be effectively running on a 1.2L 3-cyl engine....I've seen them on 1.6L civics and there is definitely some lag showing in that setup: Similarly TD04s on Charades / Starlets is about the best lag / power compromise.....so I'd still opt for something in the 25 range......though I know the sizes aren't all that linear in the VF range, so I'll have to do some research.

shrew
18-03-2009, 03:21 PM
What do you think of budget requirements Steve?

Would you agree and say £2500 would do it, even with the expnse of map2?

I see where you're going with the turbo choice query of VF34's, but i think its time we called a spade a spade...

I don't think the initial target that began this thread of 400bhp or more is achieveable with either modded stock turbos, or a variation of the TD03, they just ain't big enough to produce this without substantial increase in boost, which even if the internals cope, its gonna get bloody hot in such a small unit, and i think the housings are going to try saturate the intercooling with backheat.

The best way to avoid this, which if bad, will just rob you of everything that you have just gained, apart from the obvious which is to make a huge improvement in the the intercooling anyway, is a bigger choice of turbo altogether, not huge, just notably larger.

This way you can keep the boost levels slightly lower, the RPM and heat generation down, and then risk of back heat saturation to nill.

I think TD04's fit that bill, but VF's are rollerball, stronger, and spool faster, so still think they will give the desired result with the least drama.

BUT

is 400BHP really achieveable with stock driveability, i'd say no, not quite, but map2 or similar with some nice and well planned matching to fuel and boost control and a good mapper, should be able to mask the turbo's size to a point and get it close, but the big benefit i feel will be a huge dose of reliability, and the fact that driven hard or soft, they will always deliver the same oomph rather than suffering from heat issues.

I didn't think we'd get this far Steve, but it was you that reminded me of heat problems in the first place, so its back over to you and your fault! ha ha!


by the way, after all this, i do hope that some dosh is gonna get spent and we see our first 400+ vr4 soon????

cheers

shrew

shrew
18-03-2009, 03:26 PM
What do you think of budget requirements Steve?

Would you agree and say £2500 would do it, even with the expnse of map2?

I see where you're going with the turbo choice query of VF34's, but i think its time we called a spade a spade...

I don't think the initial target that began this thread of 400bhp or more is achieveable with either modded stock turbos, or a variation of the TD03, they just ain't big enough to produce this without substantial increase in boost, which even if the internals cope, its gonna get bloody hot in such a small unit, and i think the housings are going to try saturate the intercooling with backheat.

The best way to avoid this, which if bad, will just rob you of everything that you have just gained, apart from the obvious which is to make a huge improvement in the the intercooling anyway, is a bigger choice of turbo altogether, not huge, just notably larger.

This way you can keep the boost levels slightly lower, the RPM and heat generation down, and then risk of back heat saturation to nill.

I think TD04's fit that bill, but VF's are rollerball, stronger, and spool faster, so still think they will give the desired result with the least drama.

BUT

is 400BHP really achieveable with stock driveability, i'd say no, not quite, but map2 or similar with some nice and well planned matching to fuel and boost control and a good mapper, should be able to mask the turbo's size to a point and get it close, but the big benefit i feel will be a huge dose of reliability, and the fact that driven hard or soft, they will always deliver the same oomph rather than suffering from heat issues.

I didn't think we'd get this far Steve, but it was you that reminded me of heat problems in the first place, so its back over to you and your fault! ha ha!


by the way, after all this, i do hope that some dosh is gonna get spent and we see our first 400+ vr4 soon????

cheers

shrew

Turbo_Steve
26-03-2009, 02:19 PM
Someone may spend the money, but unfortunately it won't be me...at least until I am gainfully employed once again.

Looking at VF34 charts, it's closed to a TD05 than a TD04 in performance terms, though it's spool is definitely closer to the TD04.
We're back to the trade off again: I think the VF34 would be a brilliant turbo on this engine, and you'd loose about 500rpms of spool, which really isn't the end of the world with the gear ratios we've got. However I'm also aware that a single VF34 can go on to produce over 350bhp on it's own, so a smaller turbo may only lose you 250rpms of spool (or possibly even less!) to get to a 400bhp target.

I think using an IHI VF series turbo is an inspired idea, as they are cheap and readily available and should fit up just as easily as a TD04. Which turbo you chose depends on your eventual targets: The VF34 will doubtless run very cool at power outputs we're discussing: it's going to be down to the spool charecteristics, which are pretty hard to gauge until you've tried it, unless we've got the full engineering specs for a 6A13TT: I'm just not that good at the maths!
The good part is that once you've decided on a VF series turbo from an Impreza, they are pretty much all pin compatible (with the exception of the twin scroll items..so VF35 etc) and as such changing from one to the other shouldn't be a big deal.

As for costs...eek. Depends who is doing your fabrication, as bits will need to be made up, I'd want a better Fuel Reg, wideband, transmission cooler, and probably larger injectors for headroom. I think you could do it for £2500 if you were mapping it yourself and didn't run into any difficulties, and found someone prepared to make up the exhaust and drill/clock the turbos for under £500, and can find a good deal on an intercooler and pipework.
Most people who try a new turbo conversion set a realistic budget but find that it's exhausted around about the time it's actually fitted and ready to be mapped and have all the bugs and leaks ironed out. The other question would be around the factory MAF...not sure how much these will scale to, so do we run a bypass pipe and rescale, or chuck it and go for a more expensive ECU solution.....or look at going over to a Z32 MAF, or pair of them?

shrew
26-03-2009, 02:32 PM
Why thank you kind sir

such graceful praise is most graciously recieved!

i'm glad you agree, and glad you found the critical spool info to back it up.

i reckon the budget of £2500 should just about cover it, if, like you say some of the hardware is put together by some creative and friendly folk, like club members where possible, and as much assistance is gained from begging and blagging as possible! ha ha!

DO WE DO A CLUB CAR?

something to explore and show off the cars capabilities without hitting any of us inparticular in the pocket?

as for map / ecu issues, and maf scaling, youre dead right, and you don't wasnt to run out of cash and have the car critically complete but unusable!

if it were mine, i'd rather stretch the budget a bit further and know that its taken care of by a Simtek ecu or similar.

Your thoughts again Steve?

shrew

Turbo_Steve
26-03-2009, 03:13 PM
Heading out of my charted territory here, but I suspect a lot of this kind of thing will happen if the factory ECU gets cracked: people will be able to go a lot further with a lot less expenditure.

ECUs like EMB and EMU that piggyback the factory one are pretty much the cheapest option on the VR4, and whilst they seem capable, I would rather create a map from the ground up than piggyback: as the BMEP goes up, the factory maps get less and less accurate. I'd either want to blow away the factory ECU contents and do it all again for the bigger injectors (and maybe a bigger MAF......GTO perhaps?) or go for a proper standalone, and (as MadHav has done) leave the factory unit doing the ancilleries. A standalone will also allow the use of lots of extra toys on it's AUX outputs....so Active exhaust, Controlled water injection, disconnecting the alternator at WOT, active diff / suspension control all become a reality. My opinion is that a standalone lets you go that "Little bit" further than a piggyback. However it goes a heck of a lot further into your pocket to get you there.
You're going to need oil pressure, ideally gearbox temperature, boost, AFR and some kind of knock monitoring system. It would also be nice to monitor EGTs for both banks, and very nice to monitor them per-cylinder, however that's going to cost a fortune and means tapping manifolds and all sorts.

Whilst SimTek is a respectable enough ECU, I'm not aware of them fitting anything other than Imprezas at the moment? VERY different sensor platform.
If you're going to all the effort of changing sensors, I'd go for a power FC : cheaper and easier to change.
My preference would be to keep all the factory setup and put in a MOTEC M800....but then I'd also like a Ferrari in the garage :D

The AEM Universal EMS or Haltech models seem to be the cheapest and most flexible route.

shrew
26-03-2009, 03:38 PM
With you all the way Steve, you know your ecu's and map stuff better than i.

As a matter of interest, to this thread , myself, and yor good self Steve.

To go right back to the early parts of this thread, when instead of turbos swap out it was more Hybrid'ising (a new word?) stock or improving the td03's etc

To get a price comparison, ive just contacted TurboDynamics to enquire about Hybrid'ising my spare pair of Turbos for my 300ZX.

To machine out, fit rollerball cartridge, increase compressor size yada yada yada = £1050, per turbo!!!!!

Claimed output for this turbo, in pairs, is 400/420 bhp, and would spool around 800 rpm sooner than stock too as they are much improved rollerball and efficiency.

I still think VF type swap out is a far easier route, and with good matching parts and mapping as Steve quite rightly states, i think you'd see your 400bhp target with realistic reliability and driveability.

shrew

ps - i wish you'd still got your gt27 units Steve!

Turbo_Steve
26-03-2009, 07:58 PM
So do I, especially as they were "hybridised" T25s, so had the exhaust housing from the std. turbos mated up to the GT27 compressor with a slight turbine clip. TO be honest they sound about the same as you were quoted on....the price was similar...as were most of the mods. Still feel quite ripped off to be honest.

The bestl hybrids are the TD05 ones where you just slot the TD05 exhaust side onto just about anything you like from higher up the range for about £100 LOL

dr_josh001
05-06-2009, 09:51 AM
Sort of on topic so I thought I'd ask instead of starting a new thread... Is it at all possible to modify the bearing centres of TD04's to accommodate for roller bearing centres?

(I have done a search but there is so much stuff on here about TD04's so if there is a topic about this that anyone knows of please point me in the right direction.)

orionn2o
05-06-2009, 11:01 AM
What do you think of budget requirements Steve?

Would you agree and say £2500 would do it, even with the expnse of map2?


is 400BHP really achieveable with stock driveability, i'd say no, not quite, but map2 or similar with some nice and well planned matching to fuel and boost control and a good mapper, should be able to mask the turbo's size to a point and get it close, but the big benefit i feel will be a huge dose of reliability, and the fact that driven hard or soft, they will always deliver the same oomph rather than suffering from heat issues.

I didn't think we'd get this far Steve, but it was you that reminded me of heat problems in the first place, so its back over to you and your fault! ha ha!


by the way, after all this, i do hope that some dosh is gonna get spent and we see our first 400+ vr4 soon????

cheers

shrew

I don't think your £2500 is a realistic budget. It may seem good in the outset but you'll end up spending far more !

Oh and there already is a 400+ VR4 with TD04's. He even posted in this thread!

Gowf
10-06-2009, 12:36 AM
Indeed, and so far its been a year with no reliability issues and furthermore it just passed a 100% legit MOT.

Turbo_Steve
10-06-2009, 09:45 AM
Nothing wrong with TD04s...weren't ignoring them at all.
Just the possibility of a cheap alternative that bolts straight up (as easily as the TD04) with same or better spool charecteristics but better eventual power output?

Think TD05 but without the compromise on spool but for similar money, hence the interest.

shrew
10-06-2009, 10:31 AM
Hi steve and gang

still on this old chestnut are we then??? ha ha!

undertsandably, the initial thread was all about modded TD's, and yes there are cars performing very well with them too, no doubt about that either.

BUT

myself and steve posted about the VF range because they will outperform AND prove more reliable in the very long run than the TD range, and there is no doubt about that either.

the VF range of turbo's are descended from the TD's, and as their improvemnt and refinement carried on, yet their fitment very similar, understandably everyone currently using TD started to want the rollerball variants with even better spool up and top end power and flow characteristics,

who wouldn't???

plus, because they have become so commonly used amongst the subaru fraternity for one, they are readily available, i believe will fit with less or little modification, and consequently be a cheaper route to a better result.

just my opinion though, and in no way shape or form an assascination of the notion of getting more oomph from using the td's anyway.

spend wisely......


shrew

orionn2o
10-06-2009, 11:17 AM
Hi Shrew,

I don't think anyone is doubting your comments on the VF range, they may very well be great turbos. But as you said yourself, they are a good replacement for a TD04 and therefore will require the same cost involved in fitting TD04s in the first place. Ie new manufolds, downpipes, custom intakes etc. obviously plus the price of the turbos.

This is how your costs start to get massively swallowed up.

You see now if you pulled a direct replacement for the TD03 (VR4 turbo) out of the bag, I think you'd have a LOT of interest.

shrew
10-06-2009, 11:39 AM
thats all fab...

so when will it be done then?

who is actually going to take the bull by the horn and go with it?

i'd love to see a local VR4 at 400+ bhp, good driveability, and not a lottery win to fund it, but no-one seems to be doing it...

i don't mean it hasn't been done at all, i would just like to see more of them, and prove the methodology.

shrew

ps - if you go back some pages, you'll find that some of the VF turbo's i / we were on about, were made to fit very similar applications as original td03 fitment, so manifolds etc shouldn't be too much of an issue.

however, have you ever priced modifying / hybridising a pair of turbo's?

i did for my Zed, and its a fortune!!!!

MarkSanne
10-06-2009, 12:35 PM
Can't seem to find VF24 nor VF34s reasonably priced on ebay. Am I looking at the wrong place? Any tips? Maybe some large subaru clubs/forums names will help.

Kelly&Ben
10-06-2009, 04:51 PM
havnt read the whole thread, cant be arsed but dont td04's fit with adaptor plates? and the 13g's are dirt cheap to buy. just need the down pipes made to fit by azorst place and do the intakes yourself with the wonders of ebay?

then map it of course

Turbo_Steve
10-06-2009, 05:02 PM
Well there are a pair of VF28s on ebay at the moment for less than £100...they'll probably end up around £120.

They are the same fitting as the TD04.

They will spool earlier.

They will flow 425cfm against the TD04s 370cfm...and IMO that's optimistic for the 13T.

Why is the TD04 better than this?

VF34 is more expensive, but flows more than a TD05, spools better than a TD04.

AlanDITD
10-06-2009, 06:23 PM
You can pick up used VF34's for under 150quid also, there was loads on there at the time shrew pointed this out.

I just missed out on a pair a few weeks ago but they werent expesive.

Plus rebuilding them is fairly easy if they need new seals etc.

MarkSanne
10-06-2009, 08:18 PM
on there
On where exactly?

shrew
10-06-2009, 08:19 PM
Thanks Steve, Alan ...

i thought i was going mad!!!! (who sed dat?)

wasn't the thread starter "caveman"?

i haven't seen his input for ages, whats he up to?

shrew

scientist
10-06-2009, 08:34 PM
Well there are a pair of VF28s on ebay at the moment for less than £100...they'll probably end up around £120.

They are the same fitting as the TD04.

They will spool earlier.

They will flow 425cfm against the TD04s 370cfm...and IMO that's optimistic for the 13T.

Why is the TD04 better than this?

VF34 is more expensive, but flows more than a TD05, spools better than a TD04.
From my experience with VF series turbos.....Stick with MHI, you will make more power, they are cheaper and more reliable.

We've tried VF series on a starlet that I tune, and they were laggier than the TD04-13T and 14Bs we've tried. I've tried VF34s and VF22s. the 22 would give us full boost by 5300rpms vs 3900rpms on the TD04. Now this is on a 1300cc car. a TD05-16G from the evo 3 outspools the VF22, holds boost better, and makes significantly more power.

I'm just waiting for Cee to get his self together so we can try to slap twin TD05H-16G7 from the evo 3 onto his VR4 for testing

shrew
11-06-2009, 01:04 AM
interesting findings....

The tdo5's, typically the 18g, commonly used in ej20 scoobies, lags quite a bit, and can only make as much as about 280bhp absoloute max from a healthy 2.0litre.

a vf unit in the same the car transforms it, and can with other mods take a 2.0 litre just above the elusive 300 mark, and being better designed and rollerball, stay together a damn site longer.

not just my experience, but that shared by gazillions of subaru modifiers and tuners.

i can only imagine that having the push provided by just 3 cylinders of 1250cc worth of exhaust, is only going to exagerate the lag, and possibly be too big to ever spool to its potential.

just my opinion, steve might be able to shed some light on it if he's got his flow characteristics in front him???

cheers

shrew

Turbo_Steve
11-06-2009, 08:59 AM
The VF22 is a completely different animal, though: it's got a much higher peak flow than either the VF34 or the VF28....and will certainly be outspooled by a TD04! : It was based almost entirely on the TD05 design but designed to run at lower temps (it's a competition turbocharger designed for the STis) so it would be a bit rubbish on such a small engine.

VF34 should have been okay, though - am convinced a VF28 would still outperform all of the above.

The TD05-16big from the Evo 3 is a total MONSTER! :D :D :D Possibly the best turbo Mitsi ever made.
A pair of those should see any VR4 well into the 500's. Unfortunately the exhaust housing is big:- I can't imagine they will spool anywhere near as early as the TD04s: in fact I'd imagine they were similar(maybe marginaly better?) to the VF22 yuo were using?

What I totally agree with, is that the IHI turbos are more fragile than their MHI equivalents: they don't like being overheated at all and the bearings break down very quickly. Oil starvation of any kind will finish one off in a microsecond: they have to be treated right if you want them to last, and NEVER stall the compressor wheel: it melts the tips.
The MHIs seem to be able to run in the harshest of conditions and survive...but then they're not as frictionless as the IHIs so that kind of makes sense.


The VF range is confusing as there doesn't seem to be any logic to it: a VF22 appears to be a bigger turbo than a VF28 for example, and yet a VF35 is bigger but twin scroll IIRC?

shrew
11-06-2009, 09:24 AM
thanks steve

bradc
11-06-2009, 09:52 AM
Here are my notes on what I have found on various subi forums

VF22 250kw plus 490cfm 48.5mm compressor inducer, 0.71A/R P20 exhaust

VF23 220kw smaller compressor than 22 430cfm, 0.71A/R P20 exhaust, 46.7mm comp

VF24+28 same compressor as 23, smaller turbine 210kw 425cfm, P18 exhaust 0.63 a/r, 46.7mm comp

VF29 same as vf24/28, titanium 7 blade compressor 200kw 425cfm, P18 exhaust 0.63 a/r spools faster than vf34

VF34 same turbine as vf24/28/29, larger compressor 9 blade 47.9/60mm, similar to VF22, compressor 460cfm, P18 exhaust 0.63 a/r

VF35 same compressor as vf34, but smaller turbine, 0.51A/R P15 exhaust. not ball bearing, spools faster than vf34+29

VF39 46.48mm/60mm comp, P18 exhaust non ball bearing, similar to vf30, cracks on wastegate 48mm/53mm 11blade turbine



VF36 Twin Scroll, titanium turbine, large 47.9mm compressor as on 30/34/35 430cfm vf37 is same, not ball bearing

VF38 Twin Scroll, titanium turbine, smaller compressor best option

VF42 Twin Scroll, larger compressor than vf36, more efficient turbine. Similar in size to VF22


The 24/28/29 have a smaller compressor side 46.7 vs the 35's 47.9

Figures at the wheels on sti's:
vf35 = 168,165,169,175kw atw
vf28/29 = 160kw

td04
+500rpm lag on VF24/28/35
+600rpm lag on VF29
+650~700rpm lag on VF34

Turbo_Steve
11-06-2009, 01:51 PM
Where the heck did you get all that lot!? Rep for you, sunshine!

Turbo_Steve
11-06-2009, 02:17 PM
Actually, re-reading it again, the VF28 looks an even better proposition.

The TD04 + RPM numbers at the bottom...is that RPM later than the TD04 or how much later the TD04 would be than the VF? I assume it's how much later the VF spools than a TD04 on a 2.0L engine.

Have used a single VF34 on a 2.5L and nearly melted the poor thing at 1.4Bar.

bradc
11-06-2009, 08:58 PM
No, the TD04 spools the earliest out of the turbos listed. It is something I have put together over a few years looking at subi forums. I haven't included the twin turbo's turbos as those are strange looking devices indeed, and I haven't including many of the twin scrolls. The single scrolls up there though are virtually a complete list, I'm missing the VF30 because it is the same as the VF39 but has even worse cracking problems.

Turbo_Steve
11-06-2009, 09:22 PM
I'm interested that they spool later than the TD04! When I changed the TD04 on my friends WRX Wagon to a VF34, it spooled 500rpm earlier, though admittedly that was with a remap to revise the boost targets.

I guess until someone puts their money on the table, we won't know. Certainly I'd be prepared to give a pair of VF28s a try as I know how good they are....but if I WAS going to that much expense, I suspect I'd look at TD05s and live with the lag increase.

bradc
11-06-2009, 09:27 PM
I'm on the hunt for VF29's personally. There is also a chance they will make a titanium turbine single scroll, which is why I haven't bought VF29's yet.

dr_josh001
13-06-2009, 02:47 PM
Actually, re-reading it again, the VF28 looks an even better proposition.

The TD04 + RPM numbers at the bottom...is that RPM later than the TD04 or how much later the TD04 would be than the VF? I assume it's how much later the VF spools than a TD04 on a 2.0L engine.

Have used a single VF34 on a 2.5L and nearly melted the poor thing at 1.4Bar.

I've been on the lookout for VF24's for a while now but seem to be as rare as hen's teeth. But VF28's are almost identical. It's funny tho from the stuff I've been reading on the subi forums spool is quicker with a VF24 than a TD04L hence the switch from TD04L to VF24 for the group N rally WRX's. This eliminates the need for an anti-lag where the VF24 gives that low down grunt and large turbo doesn't.
At the end of the day I'll prolly end up going TD04L's because of the money thing.
Great discussion tho... keep it up!/GJ

Turbo_Steve
22-07-2009, 06:44 PM
VF22
This turbo has the highest output potential of all of the IHI VF series turbos and is the best choice for those who are looking for loads of top end power. The top end power however, does not come without a cost. The VF22 spools significantly slower than the rest of the IHI models due to the larger P20 exhaust housing and is much less suited for daily driving than some of the other models. Although the largest VF series turbo, the VF22 is not quite optimal for stroked engines or those who wish to run more than 20PSI of boost.

VF23
This turbo is considered a great all-around turbo. Like the VF22 it utilizes the largest P20 exhaust housing. This housing is mated with a smaller compressor housing of the of the VF24. This turbo is considered optimal in applications with range from mild to slightly wild. It does not have the same top end power of the VF22, but spools up significantly quicker.

VF24
This turbo shares its compressor housing with the VF23 however, this housing is mated with a smaller (P18) exhaust side. The smaller characteristics of this turbo allow it to provide ample bottom end power and quick spool. This turbo is very popular for Imprezas with automatic transmissions and Group N rally cars.

VF28
This turbo came standard on the STi Version 5. In terms of overall size, it is smaller than the VF22, VF30 and VF34, and about same size as the VF23.

VF29
This Turbo is nearly identical to the VF24, with the same compressor and exhaust housings. However the compressor wheel in the VF29 is has been changed slightly. The changes made to the compressor wheel in this model are generally viewed as improvements, and as such this unit is typically chosen over the VF24.

VF30
The VF30 is commonly considered the best bang for the buck turbo in the IHI VF series line. A relatively new model the VF30 features the same exhaust housing as the VF24 but a larger compressor side similar to the VF22. The combination of these two parts results in increased output potential without the lag associated with the VF22. Although it doesn't offer the top end supremacy of the VF22, the VF30 is a great compromise between these unit and the quicker spooling models.

VF34
The VF34 is nearly identical to the VF30, with the same exhaust housing and compressor. However the VF34 goes back to the ball bearing design, and in doing so achieves full boost approximately 500RPM sooner than the comparable VF30. The VF34 is the most recent IHI design and as such costs slightly more than its counterpart. Top end performance and maximum output are identical to the 30.

VF35
The VF35 has identical internals as the VF30 and it uses divided thrust bearings. However, the exhaust housing is a P15 which means this turbo will have fantastic spool characteristics. This turbo is standard on the new WRX Type RA. LIMITED SUPPLY.

VF36
Roller bearing version of the twin scroll VF37, also has a titanium turbine and shaft for even quicker spool. Same compressor housing as VF30/34, however twin scroll P25 exhaust housing provides slightly better top end output due to reduced exhaust pulse interference. This turbo is good for 400HP and used on JDM STI Spec C from 2003 onwards.

VF37 (thrust bearing)
Enter the age of twin scroll IHI turbos. Same compressor housing as VF30/34, however has a new twin scroll P25 exhaust housing that provides slightly better top end output due to reduced exhaust pulse interference. Twin scroll also provides better spool up for improved low down response over the VF30/34. This turbo is good for 400HP and used on JDM STI from 2003 onwards.

VF38
Twin scroll turbo with titanium turbine and shaft. Smaller compressor housing than VF36/VF37 provides tremendous spool up capabilities but less top end than VF36/37. The spool capabilities of this turbo are demonstrated on the JDM Legacy GT, which reaches peak torque at 2400RPM.

VF39
Single scroll turbo used on USDM STI and latest 2.5L STIs released internationally. Smaller than VF30/VF34.

VF42
Exclusive turbo to the S203/S204 models, this features a twin scroll design with a slightly larger compressor than the VF36/37 turbos and different turbine design (more blades). The VF42 is a roller-bearing turbo and is likely of similar size to the VF22 turbo, but with twin scroll exhaust housing for faster spool and superior top end performance due to reduced exhaust pulse interference.

PE 1818 The 1818 supposedly comes on boost extremely fast...which make it great for road racing or aggressive driving (remember to be responsible :^). The 1818 maxes out somewhere between 350-375 hp.

PE 1820 The 1820 is larger than the 1818 and is capable of running more boost, but at the expense of more turbo lag. Expect it not attain full boost until you have passed 4000 rpm. However, it can be tuned to 400+ hp.

Madhav
23-07-2009, 12:35 AM
We need some wealthy investors looking at promoting turbo kits to the vr4 community...

I would love to see all of the above turbos installed on our cars and side by side comparisson dyno print outs showing all the data for everyone to see.

15 turbos, maybe $7000 per conversion, so AU$100k should cover it... Who's game to donate it for research purposes? :computer:

Turbo_Steve
23-07-2009, 08:55 AM
1) You can eliminate the Twin Scroll turbos from that list:
That just leaves VF22, 23, 24 28, 29, 30, 34, 35, 39, PE1818 and PE1820.

2) Of those, I would suggest ignoring anything with a P20 or larger exhaust side, so:
VF24, VF30, VF34 and the PE1818.

3) Of those, I would suggest concentrating on ball-bearing designs:
VF34 and PE1818.


Unfortunately, those in (3) tend to be rare and fairly expensive. The VF24 and VF28 tend to be more common and are good propositions.

bradc
23-07-2009, 09:01 AM
VF24,28,29 are the best options imho

scientist
08-09-2009, 03:02 AM
Wow 18gs barely cracking 280 bhp... Not even Wheel horsepower but BHP?
18gs are known in the DSM/Mitsubishi, Nissan etc community as an Easy 400whp turbo.

I've tried tuning a VF22 on a starlet, and the lag wasn't so bad on a stock 1.3 motor after doing a few tricks to aide spool-up.

Turbo_Steve
08-09-2009, 08:01 AM
Don't think the 18G will do 400whp in the UK :D

At the fly, maybe.

400whp is generally considered to be the territory of the 20G in the UK.

Mmmmmm vf22 on a starlet.....hot-hatch fun!

SquattingDog
08-09-2009, 10:13 AM
Interesting thread...for those guys in NZ who are keen for a single (or dual) TD05-16G (EVO IV, you'll have to find another) or dual (you'll have to find another) TD04-15T, I have one of each of these turbos available.

TD04-15T came factory on my 1998 RVR X3, and I dropped in an EVO IV manifold, turbo and downpipe which I am currently running. This is about to get upgraded again, with a custom-built job by a turbo builder here in NZ. Will update you guys on how this goes...but that's for another thread ;)

Let me know if anyone is keen.

Oh and just for the record, a rebuilt TD05-16G can make 400HP (flywheel) @ around 27psi on the 2.0 4G63...and the 18G can do it with a little less boost...so I am told by my turbo builder ;) How long it would last like that...hmmm

Turbo_Steve
08-09-2009, 03:28 PM
LOL! That I could believe: my 16G seems happy enough at 320bhp. At 350bhp, the temps start to get a bit iffy and you struggle to keep the timing in, and that's at around 1.5Bar (21ish Psi?). I don't doubt with much much more intercooling it'd go higher.

steelie600
08-09-2009, 05:08 PM
what sort of flow rate are we looking at for max rpm, i have 2 brand new t35 garrett hybrids i intend to use on my car eventually. I have a lot more experience with the garretts and imo the t35 could be the puppy we need and you can get ball bearing upgrades for it

Turbo_Steve
08-09-2009, 05:43 PM
A pair of t35s? Er..that's effectively a T35 on a 3-cyl 1.2L engine....
A single GT35 would work awesomely on this engine....but a pair of T35s strikes me as a bit brave!

steelie600
08-09-2009, 06:10 PM
i get ya, so realistically we could say garrett t25's poss with hybrid compressors, cos the t25's should run ok in pairs. Alsodoes anyone make roller bearings for the mhi turbos?? I know you can get them for most garretts and kkk's and possibly holstets.

steelie600
08-09-2009, 06:15 PM
tell you what i have got access to lots of, truck turbos for single big turbo conversions.

Most popular one is the garrett gt45 as fitted to the d12c engine, (12 litre 380-500 bhp) below is a pic of it next to a t3 as fitted to a cossie

http://www.chesh.co.uk/ukmeet7/largeturbo3.jpg

steelie600
08-09-2009, 06:16 PM
tell you what i have got access to lots of, truck turbos for single big turbo conversions.

Most popular one is the garrett gt45 as fitted to the d12c engine, (12 litre 380-500 bhp) below is a pic of it next to a t3 as fitted to a cossie

Turbo_Steve
08-09-2009, 06:35 PM
And that little dot that looks like a spec of dirt on the lens? That's a TD03 :D

I've put a GT42R on a 2.5 Scoob previously, and it didn't happen until 4500rpms...but then it HAPPENED!

steelie600
08-09-2009, 06:45 PM
well if anyone wants to do a single turbo convertion lemme know what you want and ill see if weve got it, ive got about 100 turbos on the shelf here

MarkSanne
08-09-2009, 07:05 PM
All I really want first, is to ask you politely to change your annoying avatar. Then I can read this thead again ;)

steelie600
08-09-2009, 07:22 PM
Done!!! When can i put another annoying one up??

WizardKing
28-09-2009, 08:52 PM
i'd love a huge turbo, for my jet-powered go-kart !

psbarham
28-09-2009, 09:13 PM
tell you what i have got access to lots of, truck turbos for single big turbo conversions.

Most popular one is the garrett gt45 as fitted to the d12c engine, (12 litre 380-500 bhp) below is a pic of it next to a t3 as fitted to a cossie

i thought you said big???

i did my apprenticeship on Caterpillars, we had bigger tubs than that on the donkey engines /lol

steelie600
28-09-2009, 09:46 PM
paul that one was off a 12 litre engine ive got garret t6's and 7's (i think) and equivalents!!!!

psbarham
28-09-2009, 09:53 PM
paul that one was off a 12 litre engine ive got garret t6's and 7's (i think) and equivalents!!!!

now your getting somewhere, are they off the fl16's?

i remeber watching one of a set of 4 on a Dozer suck a workmates baseball cap clean off at tickover from 2 ft away, damn that was impressive, all the engine did was cough gently and then fill the workshop with finely shredded fabric /lol
The inlet of those tubs was big enough to fit your head into :o

steelie600
28-09-2009, 11:07 PM
Sure are and soon off the new bigger capacity truck which is under development

k-j-norton
29-10-2009, 09:27 PM
I'm now looking into this aswell.
I wil say sorry thou guys i've just sold my legnum to 1 of my work mates but i still get 2 drive, maintaine and play with it.
He want s 2 upgrade the orig turbo's I'm talkin to turbo dynamics 2. I'll let them know about the suggestions of the bmw parts. But are any of the old turbos up for grabs for test run as dont want to rip these ones off to have to replace them if it dont work.
Cheers

k-j-norton
29-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Sorry guys me again
So let me get this right on a direct replacement job, I'm better off putting a pair of td04 turbos off a wot on? Or a pair of vf34 turbos off a scooby?
Have i got that right wot do i need to change mechanically to fit these.
We're doing a re-map and manifolds at the same time anyhow and the intercooler and oil cooler already been up graded.
Help!!!!!!!! THis thread got all confusing a couple of pages back.
I started off at the same point Caveman was at.

Ryan
30-10-2009, 02:44 AM
Sorry guys me again
So let me get this right on a direct replacement job, I'm better off putting a pair of td04 turbos off a wot on? Or a pair of vf34 turbos off a scooby?
Have i got that right wot do i need to change mechanically to fit these.
We're doing a re-map and manifolds at the same time anyhow and the intercooler and oil cooler already been up graded.
Help!!!!!!!! THis thread got all confusing a couple of pages back.
I started off at the same point Caveman was at.

uploaded/50107/1256867046.jpg

Gowf
30-10-2009, 08:57 AM
Im not one to just simply dismiss things by saying 'use the search' but in this case i am sick to death of repeating myself on the 'what turbo fits?' question. There is a lot of info on this topic and you will be required to search to find it all, as it just takes too long to explain in one post. Now i dont know if you can access it all as your not a paid up member, so id suggest that you pay the £20 and get full use of the site, it really is worth it.

But just to say this, if your having manifolds made you can put any turbo you want on. but i will add this, good luck in finding someone who will actualy do it properly, and i hope you have one big chequebook

Turbo_Steve
30-10-2009, 02:12 PM
That, Gowf, was a very elegant summary :D

timmae2009
24-03-2010, 12:01 PM
where are these vf series turbos guys were mentioning earlier on ebay for like 150 pound or dollars or watever it was, i can only find stuff above $1000 on there :(

timmae2009
24-03-2010, 12:13 PM
All I really want first, is to ask you politely to change your annoying avatar. Then I can read this thead again ;)

BAHAHAHAHA nah man his avatar is awesome I WANT IT!!!!

MarkSanne
24-03-2010, 01:09 PM
It was changed in the meantime Tim. This is a much better avatar that he had before this.

Turbo_Steve
24-03-2010, 01:18 PM
Tim - They come and go - they tend to be snapped up by the Impreza boys as upgrades, so you usually need to be quick about it.

Best thing to do is talk to someone breaking imprezas, TBH.

timmae2009
25-03-2010, 01:01 AM
Tim - They come and go - they tend to be snapped up by the Impreza boys as upgrades, so you usually need to be quick about it.

Best thing to do is talk to someone breaking imprezas, TBH.

ok cheers for the info i searched sti turbos and that came up with cheaper option than what i was seeing before but there was many different vf series turbos on there.....has anyone used these vf turb's on their leggy yet?

Turbo_Steve
25-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Nope. :) But give me a fistful of money, and I'll try it for ya :D

If in doubt, there is nothing to stop you going for TD04s (proven solution) and upgarding to the VF series later: the mounts are the same.

However, if you're contemplating getting manifolds made, I'd go for Garrett flanges and have done with it. Even if you just start out with a pair of T25s (I have 4 of these knocking about) which will just replace the existing TD03s, you can upgrade to something meatier later very easily.

timmae2009
27-03-2010, 04:10 AM
Nope. :) But give me a fistful of money, and I'll try it for ya :D

If in doubt, there is nothing to stop you going for TD04s (proven solution) and upgarding to the VF series later: the mounts are the same.

However, if you're contemplating getting manifolds made, I'd go for Garrett flanges and have done with it. Even if you just start out with a pair of T25s (I have 4 of these knocking about) which will just replace the existing TD03s, you can upgrade to something meatier later very easily.

I wasnt lookin at custom manifolds unless i can get a set of N/A extractors and then modifying them ones, i was just gonna use adaptor plates instead....i wanna do somehtign different and the VF series sound like the goods just have to see one so i know how much bigger they are to the standard ones, i know madhavs kkr's needed modified engine mount and few other lil mods to fit his in so if these ones are bout the same size as his ill need to do the same mods obviously......t25's..............hmmmmm.........j ust dont know yet:coat

timmae2009
27-03-2010, 04:13 AM
Nope. :) But give me a fistful of money, and I'll try it for ya :D

Afist full of moneys??? Oh i dont like the sound of that surely it shouldnt cost that much more than fitting td04's

Turbo_Steve
27-03-2010, 02:38 PM
Chances are the compressor housing is going to be bigger, so they're more likely to foul stuff.

And if you're keeping the stock manifolds, I think there is other stuff that needs "adjusting" - you'll need to have a search for posts by "valmes" who has done this.


I don't think there is an "easy" solution to getting bigger turbos on, but keeping the manifolds, drilling a hole in the mount of a TD04 or VF series subaru turbo, knocking up some custom downpipes and then moving everything out of the way..like the radiator and the firewall, possibly.

timmae2009
29-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Chances are the compressor housing is going to be bigger, so they're more likely to foul stuff.

And if you're keeping the stock manifolds, I think there is other stuff that needs "adjusting" - you'll need to have a search for posts by "valmes" who has done this.


I don't think there is an "easy" solution to getting bigger turbos on, but keeping the manifolds, drilling a hole in the mount of a TD04 or VF series subaru turbo, knocking up some custom downpipes and then moving everything out of the way..like the radiator and the firewall, possibly.

Sounds expensive hearing it like that :( well i just got word of a legnum being wrecked locally so gonna get the turbos to replace my busted rear one and manifolds if possible and save the upgrade for when i actually have money...but its still in the back of my mind these upgrades see how much this guy wrecking this car wants i guess

Anderz
03-04-2011, 09:31 PM
Found this while searching for turbos
http://cgi.ebay.com/Turbocharger-Mitsubishi-Galant-6A13T-Twin-TD03L-8T-JDM-/280646435459?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4157d4c283
However I din't find more info about these TD03L-8T but the ad says It can replace and upgrade TD03L-7T turbo without any modification

bradc
08-04-2011, 11:08 PM
Interesting option, hard to know how much it would acheive though./

Anderz
09-04-2011, 09:01 AM
Indeed, would be nice to get some specs for those