Installing an amp info...

[HMG1K]

I'm refreshing my myself on installing an amp in my Elegance - it's been 17 years since I last did it :thinking: (!) - and I came across this excelent reference site in America...

There are step by step guides here:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-2dcbIQf2oko/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_install_tips.html?page=2

And a basic video guide here:

http://www.crutchfield.com/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_movie.html?format=mov

Good reference, if like me, you want a refresher - or panicing over a simple job! :scholar:

[Nick Mann]

Big cable from the battery, fused near the battery. Cable from the stereo remote signal to the signal in on the amp. Earth cable.

Speaker cable.

Phono cables.

Job done! :thumbsup:

[n13l pm]

What amp/setup you looking to install geeza?

[Turbo_Steve]

*cough* that'd be two big cables from the battery....using the body as earth is notorious for voltage drop and noise. If you're going to the hassle of running one, you might as well run two! And chances are, you'll be running phonos as well.....

[Nick Mann]

Surely if you've got a decent earth to your body, then that will be a pretty decent path back? Hmmm....... Next time I'm playing with cable I'll run an earth in too.

I certainly don't get noise that I notice, although the only amped speaker is the sub in the boot, so I may just not notice....

[Turbo_Steve]

It's true it probably is overkill...law of diminishing returns etc etc.

Noise is usually higher frequency stuff, although you can pick up all sorts of clicks and buzzes, especially on older fords and on french cars.

I always do it because it's easier to run both cables at once anyway, because you DO get voltage drop through the body of the car: it's not always a particularly good earth, and because the manufacturer usually runs independant earths for most of the sensors on the car that connect back to the ECU. Admittedly this is mainly when the leads are sheilded, but..nonetheless, they must know something :)

[CANDEE]

I only have about 0.1v drop on my leggie and i ground to the chassis... kinda helps that i have 2g from the battery and a yellow top... /pan

[HMG1K]

What amp/setup you looking to install geeza?

Re-installing my old kit I had in my 6G Galant...

Kenwood KAC 745 - 4 channel amp...

To go with...

Kenwood KGC 759 - MASK cassette had unit...
Kenwood KGC 9044 - single DIN 11-band graphic equalizer...
Kenwood KSC-WA 82 - sub...
Kenwood KFC-HQT15ie - tweeters...
Pioneer TS-E 1796 - 3-way speakers (x4)...

Rewiring the speakers with thicker, high quality cable and running all 4 speakers off the amp as before.

[Nick Mann]

Hmmm..... I'll measure the voltage drop next time I'm messing around. I have a reasonable earthing kit too, so I would imagine it will be small, but I'm interested to find out now!

[Turbo_Steve]

Worst I've seen is a massive 3 Volts! It was a Renault 19, though.

[CANDEE]

Hmmm..... I'll measure the voltage drop next time I'm messing around. I have a reasonable earthing kit too, so I would imagine it will be small, but I'm interested to find out now!

I usually have a 2g ground from the battery to chassis and will make myself a 8g grounding kit as well as upgrading my battery and chassis grounds to 0g. :)

[Turbo_Steve]

:) I'd run the 0AWG to the back as well. :) But then I'm mental...I always have to use line drivers or a balanced feed.

[CANDEE]

I dont need 0g as i only need 4g for my amps :P but i have 2g from the battery and 4g to the amps :P

Oh and its better to have grounds that are bigger than your power wire :evilgrin:

[Turbo_Steve]

I dont need 0g as i only need 4g for my amps :P but i have 2g from the battery and 4g to the amps :P

Oh and its better to have grounds that are bigger than your power wire :evilgrin:

I always used 4awg until I started measuring the voltage drop down the cables. My amps (2 of them) specified 8awg and a current draw of 30A and 40A.
And here's the thing...peak current draw...even with the amps fused at 30A and 40A.....was 100A!
By upgrading the cables to 0awg, I found the peak current dropped to 90A. Where did the 10A go? I can only assume RMS peak voltage drop.
Certainly on the 4awg I'd would revert to protection mode quite a bit.





Why should the earth be bigger than the positive? Where's the extra voltage/current coming from? Noise?

[Turbo_Steve]

oops. double post. muppet.

[Azzaw1980]

Why not have a dual charging system with a battery in the boot and be done with it?? hehe. well thats my plan for the future anyway :)

[Turbo_Steve]

Actually, there is a lot to be said for that.
I've used a split charger on my old Mazda, but with a diode pack fitted:
This meant the system primarily used the main engine battery, but was continutally "topped up" by a small 100Ah lead YUASA cell in the boot, effectively like a large cap.

Since then, I've experimented with fitting larger power caps to the amps power supplies. It makes a huge difference, and I really don't know why manufacturers don't do it as standard: it's only a few quids.

The cheapest way so far seems to be an upgrade to the onboard caps and plenty thick power cable. Of course, it really depends what the amp is doing:
Mid and Treble don't seem to suffer much.
Driving 4 15" cones at 2ohms whilst listening to a live recording (uncompressed) of something bassy with lots of transients (funky bass player, double bass, live drums) will really max out your power requirements.

[CANDEE]

I always used 4awg until I started measuring the voltage drop down the cables. My amps (2 of them) specified 8awg and a current draw of 30A and 40A.
And here's the thing...peak current draw...even with the amps fused at 30A and 40A.....was 100A!
By upgrading the cables to 0awg, I found the peak current dropped to 90A. Where did the 10A go? I can only assume RMS peak voltage drop.
Certainly on the 4awg I'd would revert to protection mode quite a bit.





Why should the earth be bigger than the positive? Where's the extra voltage/current coming from? Noise?

I have never had my amps in protection with 4g to the distro and 8g to the amps. I had a check of the temp with 2g to the distro and 4g to the amps yesterday and they were pretty warm after only 1 hour of being used......

I think its to help stop noise in the system....

[Roberto]

I have to say for power, once the amps warrent it, it has to be 0g.

Never had a problem with using the chassis ground, as long as its nice and clean and makes a really good contact.
Plus I added an engine grounding kit.

Add in a 1F Cap and I'm laughing.

Might get back to mental systems again some day, but 1 x 4 channel amp and a Sub amp is enough for now.
/Handbag thinks that's more than mental anyway......for now /pan

[CANDEE]

I currently have 1 x 4 channel and 1 x 2 channel(for the sub) with a yellow top optima and a cap isnt needed.. :)

I used to have a 525cca battery with the same setup with no issues at all as well :)

[Turbo_Steve]

Just to clarify, my reasoning behind the 0awg is that if you're going to run silly expensive cable, it might as well be big enough for anything, including any curent spikes. How are you guys measuring that you don't need Caps / bigger cables?
Inline ammeter? Voltmeter?

On the more mental systems (especially running into low impedances) I would find cable warmth an issue, running seriously high output the cables would gradually degrade, the voltages would start to creep.

[HMG1K]

Excuse the stupid question - but can you 'kill' a system by installing a higher grade than you need power and ground cable...?

For example using an 0AWG or 4AWG when an 8AWG would be sufficient...?

[CANDEE]

Just to clarify, my reasoning behind the 0awg is that if you're going to run silly expensive cable, it might as well be big enough for anything, including any curent spikes. How are you guys measuring that you don't need Caps / bigger cables?
Inline ammeter? Voltmeter?

On the more mental systems (especially running into low impedances) I would find cable warmth an issue, running seriously high output the cables would gradually degrade, the voltages would start to creep.

I have a few mates running 145+dB SPL systems and they run a run of 0g from the battery to the amp - though they quite often run the ground back to the battery well. When they are running caps they quite often have power delivery issues(ie they dont get enough power). But without caps and a decent battery/ground system they are fine....

[CANDEE]

Excuse the stupid question - but can you 'kill' a system by installing a higher grade than you need power and ground cable...?

For example using an 0AWG or 4AWG when an 8AWG would be sufficient...?

I dont see any problem with that as long as you have the wire fused appropriatly(spelling).

[Fully]

Capacitors are designed to hold large amounts of boost power for the amps, when It's required, for the big bass boost. If there is a power delivery problem, there capacitors are not working correctly, or are not running at full. Most common fault with caps is people don't charge them correctly.

The difference between a capacitor and a battery is that a capacitor can dump its entire charge in a tiny fraction of a second, where a battery would take minutes to completely discharge.

Another issues with not charging correctly, is the cable(s) is too far away from the power source, under 500mm is recommended.

I'll stop there now, as I can talk about this for hours :D

[Roberto]

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What he said.......

[CANDEE]

Capacitors are designed to hold large amounts of boost power for the amps, when It's required, for the big bass boost. If there is a power delivery problem, there capacitors are not working correctly, or are not running at full. Most common fault with caps is people don't charge them correctly.

The difference between a capacitor and a battery is that a capacitor can dump its entire charge in a tiny fraction of a second, where a battery would take minutes to completely discharge.

Another issues with not charging correctly, is the cable(s) is too far away from the power source, under 500mm is recommended.

I'll stop there now, as I can talk about this for hours :D

Dont worry dude... I'll stop here too as I can direct people to many threads on NZICEMAG(and national record holding setups) which prove you can get a good set up without a cap :P

[Roberto]

There is no doubt you can run a real good system without any Caps.
But for me it always helps, if you are not running a Pro system and require a little help in the bass department.

Each to thier own, as long as your happy with the sound, that is all that matters.:pimp2:

[n13l pm]

Iv been looking around on talkaudio forum for years now and their idea is simple, dont have caps, just have enough battery power. And in most cases this means getting a second battery in the boot.

[Turbo_Steve]

Not going to comment on the "cap or not to cap" debate.
I think they're a "fix" item, if you have a problem getting power delivery to the boot, or your amps are running into such low impedance that their powersupply stages need additional capacity. But if that's the case, my personal preference is to modify the amplifiers themselves, as we're usually talking higher voltages and less current, so easier all round.


And don't forget that your average 1Farad cap has a fairly limited life: unlike the proper electronics grade stuff you get in TVs and Mobos, your avaerage car cap tends to show a significant decrease in capacity over a year if discharging regularly. I'm not convinced they're a good investment. Neccesary sometimes, I suppose.

[HMG1K]

Have you folks got any suggestions as to where to position an amp...?

I thought of under the driver or passenger seat - but then there's no where to bolt it down to without drilling (which I dont want to do). I've tried industrial strength velcro (which does the trick), but the teeth of the velcro won't grip the carpet. It will cling to the boot sidewall - but the amp is too heavy.

Thanks for your feedback in advance.

[Zaid]

I have got my amp mounted on the sub box.

[Turbo_Steve]

Mount it anywhere there's space, really, but ensure it has airflow!
This either means having plenty of space around it, or having an inch above & either side connected to a larger space (e.g. cabin / bootspace).
I've often mounted them behind trim panels that vent to the outside at the rear. That seems to work reasonably well.
I've also mounted them under the rear seat, and watercooled them to a little radiator at the front of the car!

I am looking at mounting one in the wheel well, (with the spare wheel still in it!) which will mean I will probably put a intake and exhaust fans into the cavity to ensure it doesn't overheat.

[HMG1K]

How do you mount it / stick it to the floor...?

[Roberto]

What I have done is the sub is mounted on the left side of the load area and the amps on the other side. But mine is a Legnum.

No matter what you do make sure it is secure.
Normally you will have to Drill and screw, the last thing you want is to put in some nice Bass and then have it rattle the amp or subbox.

On that matter you may want to check the tightness of your rear view mirror, otherwise your world behind you will be nothing but a blur.......

[Turbo_Steve]

LOL Yes! Had the mirror fall off in my metro (don't ask) when I bassed that up (don't ask - I was young).
Having done the whole "MDF" thing for subwoofers, my advice is to make an enclosure out of glass fibre with some internal bracing and an MDF front thickened up with glass fibre. Dynamat (or equivalent) the back of the box inside and out. Make sure it's ported if you want a decent bass response (use some speakerbox software) and then you should be able to fit it inside the side wing and fit the factory trim back around it if it's a legnum. This sounds like what Roberto has done. If it's a Galant, you might have to trim it yourself...not seen inside the boot of one. IF you do this, you can use doublesided foam sticky pads (the seriously hefty ones that manufacturers use) to hold the box in place. However, removing it can (and often does) break the box, so make sure you're not going to restrict access to anything.

The same goes for amps: you should really screw them down. However there are certain parts of the car you shouldn't drill. And I get nervous wielding a drill too near the fuel tank :)
If you have a convenient flat surface, again, you can use the double sided tape.
It's less than ideal however, and again can cause damage at removal time.

Self tappers into the boot floor can be used, but ensure you're not drilling into anything structural, and that you rustproof anything that will be exposed to the outside.
If you go through any bulkheads, panels or anything else with cables you MUST MUST MUST use grommets. Your power feed to your amplifier MUST be fused next to the battery. Failure to fuse it next to the battery is a fire risk.
It always worries me when you see people relocate their battery to the boot with a massive long cable run with no battery-side fuse. Any damage to that cable will then be very very bad.

[Fully]

Dont worry dude... I'll stop here too as I can direct people to many threads on NZICEMAG(and national record holding setups) which prove you can get a good set up without a cap :P

:o I wasn't arguing the point of having them or not.

I have a back ground in arcade video games, manly hardware design and fabrication. I also did a lot of work in the Thompson simulators in the late 80's and 90's.
There is a lot of difference between reading about stuff and designing stuff :P

PS: Zaid, You shouldent mount your amp on the back of your sub box, you will damage your amp.

[CANDEE]

:o I wasn't arguing the point of having them or not.

I have a back ground in arcade video games, manly hardware design and fabrication. I also did a lot of work in the Thompson simulators in the late 80's and 90's.
There is a lot of difference between reading about stuff and designing stuff :P

PS: Zaid, You shouldent mount your amp on the back of your sub box, you will damage your amp.

All good dude :pimp2:

I agree with the amp not on the back of the sub-box as the vibrations can break the board in the amp....

[Fully]

I was just looking at those Warhorse Kicker amps, OMG 10,000 RMS pure watts, or 20,000 bridged.
At about 5g holly molly, then you would need 2 racing alternators and about 10 batteries just to run it :D

Opps! I just creamed myself :o

[CANDEE]

I was just looking at those Warhorse Kicker amps, OMG 10,000 RMS pure watts, or 20,000 bridged.
At about 5g holly molly, then you would need 2 racing alternators and about 10 batteries just to run it :D

Opps! I just creamed myself :o
LOL they seem a bit over the top with their power draw... /Hmmm

But the power is not too bad.... only 2 watts per $ :o

[Zaid]

PS: Zaid, You shouldent mount your amp on the back of your sub box, you will damage your amp.

Many thanks Fully, you have a point. Another job added to the to-do list on the Galant :)

[HMG1K]

Is it safe to unbolt and remove this item in the photo circled (don't know what it is!) so I can feed my my amp cable through the firewall and into the cabin?

The second photo shows the area behind the part, a rubber gromet looking cover...

The last photo shows the bolts used to keep the part in place...

I'm stumped otherwise on where to feed the power cable through to the cabin.

[CANDEE]

The best place to do it is through the grommet next to the battery into the inner guard(see attached pic).

Take the wheel off the remove the inner guard and string the wire to the grommet on the right hand side and the wire will feed down to behind passengers kick panel.

Hope this helps,
J

[MarkSanne]

If the amp(s) is/are only there to feed the sub(s), there is another alternative which skips the whole cap thing/problem: use Class-J amp(s), like the earthquake PH2000W/D1 amp I have.

This type of amp is very power-efficient yet very powerfull (but not getting hot) and run a design that actually incorporate a cap into it. And I can personally guarantee it can run loud, VERY loud! ;) I need to turn it back down to almost minimum level otherwise all kinds of car-bits & pieces start to rattle annoyingly.

[Beastlee]

That unit on the bulkhead is the wiper motor, you'll run into big problems if you try to squeeze a cable throught the grommet.

[HMG1K]

That unit on the bulkhead is the wiper motor, you'll run into big problems if you try to squeeze a cable throught the grommet.
Rules that one out! Thanks for the heads up!

[HMG1K]

The best place to do it is through the grommet next to the battery into the inner guard(see attached pic).

Take the wheel off the remove the inner guard and string the wire to the grommet on the right hand side and the wire will feed down to behind passengers kick panel.

Hope this helps,
J

Certainly does - though does the wheel have to come off...? I was looking for the easiest way round it - with natrually a professional looking job.

[CANDEE]

Certainly does - though does the wheel have to come off...? I was looking for the easiest way round it - with natrually a professional looking job.

Yes the wheel does have to come off as the inner guard has to be taken off to get the wire through to the grommet in the firewall plus you also need to be able to cable tie off the power wire - that reminds me I need to do mine too /pan

Oh PS - you can run up to 0AWG wire through there :P I have 2AWG in there atm and there is no probs with it :P

[Zaid]

I think this has been covered here before, if you do a search you might some info. Usually, well atleast for all the Galants I had, try sticking the wire from behind the fan (heater) motor that is behind the glove compartment. Not an easy one.. I will try to get you some photos for you.

[Beastlee]

Yes the wheel does have to come off as the inner guard has to be taken off to get the wire through to the grommet in the firewall plus you also need to be able to cable tie off the power wire - that reminds me I need to do mine too /pan

Oh PS - you can run up to 0AWG wire through there :P I have 2AWG in there atm and there is no probs with it :P

I disagree, when installing the Profec I routed my cables through the driver's side arch and all I did was jack it up and turn the wheel left (right if doing passenger side). It requires a little waggle to get the arch in and out but you don't have to take the wheel off.

I have to agree to it being the best and safest route though. The inner arches protect the cabling and there are already a set of grommets through which to run the cables into the cabin at a postion perfectly suited to running to the back of the car. If and when I get round to installing the 2 amps, 15" sub and Clarion DVD system this is where I'll be looking, although I may then move the battery to the boot so the power is close to the amps ;) The only downside there is that I was going to hide both amps in a custom unit that sits in the wheel well.

[HMG1K]

I disagree, when installing the Profec I routed my cables through the driver's side arch and all I did was jack it up and turn the wheel left (right if doing passenger side). It requires a little waggle to get the arch in and out but you don't have to take the wheel off.

I have to agree to it being the best and safest route though. The inner arches protect the cabling and there are already a set of grommets through which to run the cables into the cabin at a postion perfectly suited to running to the back of the car. If and when I get round to installing the 2 amps, 15" sub and Clarion DVD system this is where I'll be looking, although I may then move the battery to the boot so the power is close to the amps ;) The only downside there is that I was going to hide both amps in a custom unit that sits in the wheel well.

Ok, that sounds like an option to seriously consider - easier than taking the wheel off... appreciate the tip Beastlee! :happy:

[HMG1K]

I think this has been covered here before, if you do a search you might some info. Usually, well atleast for all the Galants I had, try sticking the wire from behind the fan (heater) motor that is behind the glove compartment. Not an easy one.. I will try to get you some photos for you.

Thanks Zaid - is the area to feed the wire through just below the wiper motor?

I've re-attached one of the photos from earlier as there's a big gromet were loads of wires go through (shown in the bottom right of the ringed area in the photo)... The problem I found was it was impossible to get my hands down there to pull the cover off, and it's really tight and snuggly fit.

[HMG1K]

Quick question - what is this additional wire (see image below) meant for on phono cables...?

My amp install kit arrived today and am thrown by both sets of phono cables having this additional wire attached to the middle...

What am I to do with this 'third' wire..?!

I've bought the Toxic 420 pack.

Thanks!

[Beastlee]

Good set of phonos I have sets of them still in the garage in the UK (must go and clear a load of stuff out).

The wire is for a switch wire to the amplifier. In order to only run the amplifier when the source (head unit) is on there is a 12V output. When you run the cables to the amp you need +12V permanent battery, -ve or earth and a switched +12V to turn the amp on.

To avoid noise I would reccommend that you keep the phono cables and 12V battery away from each other, preferrably on different sides of the car. I would also run the remote with the batt wire but you should be OK using the 3rd wire on the phonos.

[HMG1K]

Ah! Ok, so this third wire is the P-Con wire then..?! So I use this instead of a seperate P-Con wire!

What is best - use these phonos and run the seperate P-Con wire I have with the 12V battery cable..?

[Beastlee]

In an ideal world I would say run a separate wire but it all depends on how much of an audiophile you are. if you use the combined wire there is a possibility of introducing noise into the system but I wouldn't imagine it would be noticable.
If you don't mind sourcing and running the extra wire go for it but I really doubt there would be enough noise introduced.

I must find the pics of my old Pug 405 Mi16 we made custom shelf units and a full boot build in that, although the boot never really was finished.

[HMG1K]

If you don't mind sourcing and running the extra wire go for it but I really doubt there would be enough noise introduced.

Thank you ! :happy:

I'll do it that way as I'd planned !

[Zaid]

Here are photos of mine as promised.

uploaded/50669/1203549953.jpg
uploaded/50669/1203550033.jpg

[HMG1K]

Here are photos of mine as promised.

Lovely! Thank you, Zaid... Is that a simple feed-in to the cabin then..? Just through the grommet...?

Will check it out on my car....

Really appreciate your time taking those photos!:happy:

[HMG1K]

Here are photos of mine as promised.

BINGO! That was my way into the car via the firewall!:pimp2:

Thank you so much Zaid! Cable came through just by the clutch..! :2thumbsup

[n13l pm]

Quick question - what is this additional wire (see image below) meant for on phono cables...?

My amp install kit arrived today and am thrown by both sets of phono cables having this additional wire attached to the middle...

What am I to do with this 'third' wire..?!

I've bought the Toxic 420 pack.

Thanks!

This wire is called the "drain" wire its meant to be for earthing the amp to reduce noise (if any), but most people use it as a remote wire.

[Zaid]

Good news Philip :)

[HMG1K]

Stereo install is complete (amp, sub, graphic, head unit, tweeters, speakers) - thank you for all your help along the way...!

I'm so happy! And I'm WOW'd by the Kenwood tweeters and their supplied crossovers... (mentioned earlier in this thread)...

Their clarity is awsum and a million times better than the stock fit tweeters! If you get a chance to get hold of KFC-HQT15ie, then you're on to a winner! They go for around £80 - but you can easily find them at the moment for £45!

[Beastlee]

as I need to strip down my driver's door to sort out why I now have no sound at all I may well invest in some new speakers. I am more of a (Infinity) Kappa slapper fan so will get the equivalents.

Incidentally I found I have all of the cables in the box in the cellar here so I am hatching yet another plan. I reckon I may order all the bits I need at once and go on a strip the interior out craze one weekend.

Oh and/ttiwwop

[abdielhiram]

Unfortunately my car have the steering on the left, in other words, i can use that route, but i have to increase the ammount of cable running from the battery :(

[HMG1K]

Just updating this thread - and for anyone looking to buy an amp.

I have fitted the other day a Pioneer PRS D-420 4-channel amp and am wow'd by the depth and clarity of my system now. I highly recommend it. I bought it to replace my old Kenwood amp that lost power on one channel.

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products/25/29/182/PRS-D420/index.html

This Pioneer isn't cheap as it's from its high end range (£399 but I found a audio shop online that does it for £279) but this was my 'only' option as its dimentions fit nicely under the passenger seat without poking out or getting in the way of rear passenger's feet. It also compliments nicely the Pioneer TS-E1796 3-way speakers I put in all round earlier this year.

I've recently replaced my 10-disc autochanger for a 10-GB Kenwood MP3 hard drive auto changer which is great too - they're going for around £50 on eBay and were around £400 new 6 years ago.

So my full ICE set up now is:

Kenwood KRC 759R headunit
Kenwood KGC 9044 11-Band Graphic Equaliser
Kenwood KGD C710 10-GB Hard Disc MP3 auto-changer
Kenwood KSC-SW10 active subwoofer
Kenwood KFC-HQT15ie component tweeters
Pioneer TS-E1796 3-way speakers (x4)
Pioneer PRS D-420 amp

[Turbo_Steve]

Change some more of that Kenwood kit to pioneer and it will get better and better. I've used various Kenwood items, and lots of Pioneer, and price-per-price, Pioneer wins every single time, especially on a CD player.

Unfortunately, Pioneer (or anyone) don't do a decent HardDrive headunit or MusicKeg alternative.