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View Full Version : Put least wear tyres front or rear?



unclepete
01-02-2008, 04:01 PM
This will doubtlessly split everyone, and yes, it is a stupid question.

I have some 18" wheels from the RX-8. Problem is that that car was a little tail happy and wore out the rear ones a lot more than the fronts. We have established that these fit on the VR-4, and as these are winter tyres, I need to put them on now.

My initial view, as it always has been, is to put the fresher ones on the front, as they handle turning and putting down the power.

However, are our cars 50/50 front/rear in normal conditions? I also know that it is always recommended to put newer tyres on the rear.

Wodjno
01-02-2008, 04:13 PM
I would put the more worn 1's on the rear. Although it does depend how worn they are to whether i would put them on at all ?
If there is a big difference then i would prolly buy 2 new 1's and stick those on the front and the 2 from the front of the RX8 onto the rear of the VR /yes

Don't know whether you have checked this out already ? But forgive me if i'm insulting your inteligence ?

Have you ensured that the load rating of the tyres from the RX8 is sufficient enough for the weight of the VR4 ?

Cheers

WODJ :pimp2:

unclepete
01-02-2008, 04:31 PM
They're around 4mm, compared to probably around 6 - 7mm. Not the best. Prob is that I don't want to buy new tyres as these are 225/45/18s, and I really need 225/40/18s. I need to wear them out though, as they're Vredestein Wintrac Extremes, so cost a pretty penny. And the RX-8 club don't want to buy them as the wheels aren't pretty enough, even though they're all sliding into shopfronts. Good luck, hope your cars burn down in the drive, as they are prone to!

Load rating - good point - pretty sure they're XL ones - 95 so should be fine.

I'm not intelligent, don't worry about any insults. Thanks for your help.

Turbo_Steve
01-02-2008, 04:40 PM
I guess it all depends whether you prefer understeer or oversteer.
As you've come out of a RWD car, I would suggest putting the least worn tyres on on the front, as it should keep the handling similar.

But TBH if you're trying to use them up, I'd suggest you just put them on which ever way and keep swapping them back to front front to back, getting the maximum wear out of those tyres, and don't drive it like a loon.

bradc
01-02-2008, 08:10 PM
The handling on a VR-4 is very dodgy with less grip at the rear, the 4wd system seems to make it snap around very quickly, personally I would suggest the more worn ones at the front.

Turbo_Steve
01-02-2008, 09:28 PM
Agreed: with less grip the Evo's can be snappy too....but only if you're being silly?

Rambaud
01-02-2008, 09:39 PM
Best tyres should go on the rear.

elnevio
01-02-2008, 10:08 PM
I was of the opinion that tyres with more tread should go on the front. Three reasons for this:

First, the fronts normally wear quicker so it evens out the difference between the fronts and rears;

Secondly, when braking, especially under emergency conditions in the wet, the front tyres do most of the work due to the weight transfer to the front of the car, and the newer tyres give up better grip;

Thirdly, deeper tread on the front reduces the risk of aquaplaning, and the lower treaded rears follow in the channels made by the fronts.

This seems to apply to normal driving (i.e. most of the time, honest!). However, the previous comments, especially in relation to 4wd or rwd cars being 'snappy', would possibly apply when applying maximum beans the rest of the time. I've not sourced any figures to back this up (although I do recall seeing some research on worn tyres which showed that, as you would think, better treaded tyres performed better in the wet when braking, but that this was also true, to a slightly lesser extent, in the dry!), but this seems to make sense to me.

Overall though, I have to admit that I always try to keep the tread similar across all four tyres, swapping fronts to rears at an appropriate time, so that all four are replaced at the same time. Just seems like common sense! Admittedly, this is not so good on the pocket...

bradc
02-02-2008, 01:10 AM
In a front wheel drive car, yes absolutely, and a VR-4 does wear the fronts quicker than the rears, but I'm not so sure on how wise it is to do that sort of thing myself.

Rambaud
02-02-2008, 02:02 AM
Some input from Tirerack's website :

"....In case there is any doubt, when tires are replaced in pairs, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the worn tires moved to the front."

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52

elnevio
02-02-2008, 08:24 AM
Interesting read - but how can you trust a website that spells tyre with an i?! ;)

Only kidding, it is helpful to see the info re aquaplaning.

I just wonder though, especially with the VR-4, putting your new 9mm tyres on the back and moving your 5mm tyres to the front, you've already got 4mm difference in radius, which is only going to increase as the fronts wear more than the rear, and therefore may increase the possibility of handling issues, AYC problems, etc.

I had also heard that one of the reason for moving the worns to the front was so that the driver didn't have to deal with the change of handling characteristics of the worn out tyres to brand new tyres. A compromise if you will.

Can anyone dig out some definitive research?

bradc
02-02-2008, 10:06 AM
lol, it's not their fault that they are american :)

tirerack is very very good though, I also like the 1010tires.com site.

As for the difference in tyre diameter affecting grip, I don't see it being an issue. One of the guys in Aussie had his car delivered to him with a strange setup, it was something like 205/55/16 and 215/55/16 or something like that and it had about a 4% difference. The tires were fairly worn down and had obviously been on the car for a while, and it hadn't blown it's transfer case!

He didn't have any AYC problems with it either.

Also when I got my ST-R it had two sorts of tyres on it, all of them were 205/55/16, but 2 had about 8mm of tread and two had about 4mm tread. When the wheels were put onto the white VR-4 the AYC came up all the time in a straight line. What had happened was that the tyre shop had put the wheels on like this:

FL 4mm FR 8mm
RL 8mm RR 4mm

Above 50kmh the AYC would come on, but I couldn't feel the car pulling to the left or right. I thought hey, I'm selling the car anyway, so why not experiment.

I tried the 4mm tyres both on the right of the car. This made the car constantly pull to the right, and the AYC light came on at about 90kmh.

I then tried both 4mm at the front and 8mm at the rear. No AYC lights at all, around roundabouts and stuff the ASC came up very easily, much much sooner than when I had the previous wheels on it (which were equally worn 215/45/17 GSD3's)

I then tried 8mm at the front and 4mm at the rear. What a cow. It would snap into oversteer all over the place, roundabouts were simply dangerous in the wet, even at normal speeds. No AYC lights though.

elnevio
02-02-2008, 10:12 AM
FL 4mm FR 8mm
RL 8mm RR 4mm

Crazy!



I then tried both 4mm at the front and 8mm at the rear. No AYC lights at all, around roundabouts and stuff the ASC came up very easily, much much sooner than when I had the previous wheels on it (which were equally worn 215/45/17 GSD3's)

I then tried 8mm at the front and 4mm at the rear. What a cow. It would snap into oversteer all over the place, roundabouts were simply dangerous in the wet, even at normal speeds. No AYC lights though.
I'm sold! From now on (well when the Leggie actually arrives...) most worn on the front for me in the VR-4!

bradc
02-02-2008, 10:17 AM
What you should be doing is keeping them the same all round. What wheels does you car have? Stock?

elnevio
02-02-2008, 10:38 AM
What you should be doing is keeping them the same all round. What wheels does you car have? Stock?
Yep, my preference is to keep them as similarly treaded as possible so that they all end up being changed at once (even though the moths in my wallet don't like being disturbed!). Only if I have a fair difference between the fronts and rears will I put the more worn ones on the front of the VR-4.

The incoming VR-4 has 215/45/17 Falkens all round, and they are all apparently about half worn. So this is hopefully accurate and therefore all the tyres are equal! If they are rotated regularly, then I should keep the tread wear pretty even.

My fwd V6 has 205/50/17 Dunlop SP9000s all round, with about 7-8mm front and 3-4mm rear, which suits it, as it only ever understeers predictably anyway. Even with the tyres as they are now, I get very little lift-off oversteer. My suspension is stock.

bradc
02-02-2008, 10:46 AM
Yeah on the fwd V6's you will get that, constant understeer :)

I would suggest replacing the tyres with 215/50/17 if the wheels are 17x7, and 225/45/17 if they are 17x7.5"

As for the exact tyre, well there are a huge amount of high performance options out there, the GSD3's are popular here though

elnevio
02-02-2008, 10:51 AM
Cheers for the info - just tried giving you more rep, but apparently, I have to spread it around a bit more first! :D

bradc
02-02-2008, 10:59 AM
You don't have a green square, so you can't give me rep anyway :) But if I give you some first, then you should be given a green square, and then you should be able to give me some

Wodjno
02-02-2008, 11:24 AM
As i said in my 1st post i would put the least worn on the fronts /yes And i still stand by this.. But as i also stated, it does depend on how much wear the difference is. Also how much tread there is actually left. ?

If there was a 2mm difference between them (6mm+4mm) I would still put least worn on fronts as it won't be long before theere evened up :) If it was 4mm and 2mm, i would stick the 4mm on the rear and get 2 New ones for the front.. By the time the rears got down to 3mm the fronts would prolly be down to 5mm or less..

Each to there own and all that :D

Rambaud
02-02-2008, 11:34 AM
Also, I remember reading that Volvo recommend changing all 4 tyres at the same time. I think the tolerance was less than 2mm-3mm?

“When tire replacement is necessary, Volvo strongly recommends replacing all four tires at the same time with identical tires. Failure to do so can result in damage to the transmission and all wheel drive system. If only one or two tires are replaced, the new tire(s) must be identical to the tires with which the car was built, and must be mounted on the front axle only. Failure to do this may damage the transmission and all-wheel-drive system.”

Subaru ETA
02-02-2008, 11:52 AM
id be putting the better tyres to the front as its doing steering and driving. oversteer is better than understeer!

also in the wet you will need more grip up front for braking. my car was VERY tail happy when it had crap tyres on the rear, but hey ive driven enough rear wheel drive cars to know how to get out of it!! and coming from your rx8 i would imagine you are better with oversteer then understeer.

on a different note, what the hell power modes you do to you rx8 to make it tail happy?!?!? im a mazda mechanic and drive heaps of them and struggle to get them sideways!

Wodjno
02-02-2008, 11:53 AM
Also, I remember reading that Volvo recommend changing all 4 tyres at the same time. I think the tolerance was less than 2mm-3mm?

“When tire replacement is necessary, Volvo strongly recommends replacing all four tires at the same time with identical tires. Failure to do so can result in damage to the transmission and all wheel drive system. If only one or two tires are replaced, the new tire(s) must be identical to the tires with which the car was built, and must be mounted on the front axle only. Failure to do this may damage the transmission and all-wheel-drive system.”

And this is why i would put the least worn to the front.. So as to get as even tyre wear as possible. Then you should be able to change all 4 tyres at once. This will never happen if you put the least worn the the rear..
I apply this rule to FWD and our 4WD system. I know there where rate on the front of our 4WD cars isn't as much as the FWD cars, but the wear is still more on the front in both cases.
At the end of the day. It's a case of checking how your tyres are wearing on a regular basis and altering the balance accordingly for the best bperformance of grip and handling charachteristics for the individual driver..

elnevio
02-02-2008, 12:05 PM
You don't have a green square, so you can't give me rep anyway :) But if I give you some first, then you should be given a green square, and then you should be able to give me some
Think I've already given you some previously - check your stats! Looks like a failsafe so you can't keep giving the same person rep all the time. I can't help it if you're my favourite poster at the moment!! /notworthy

Back to the tyres (surely not!), I admit my normal preference is to put the newer ones on the front - but Brad's experience suggests what a number of people have also said that the VR-4, specifically, is better off with the newer tyres on the back.

Maybe later this year we should arrange for a VR-4 to get to Millbrook (or somewhere similar) and try a few tests of our own. Wodjno's right though, it will come down to personal preference to some extent, as well as driving style too. /rally

bradc
02-02-2008, 12:07 PM
Thats cause I'm the best.

I did notice though that you have a prefacelift with beige leather, and I'm guessing it is an auto too!

I'm more of a manual facelift with black leather or recaro's kind of guy, but at least yours is Trigger Mauve :)

elnevio
02-02-2008, 12:11 PM
Best colour (no bias there of course!) :laugh:

- but not the winningest... ;)

bradc
02-02-2008, 12:31 PM
ROFL! winningest indeed

unclepete
02-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Thanks guys, all useful stuff. Unfortunately I must have been changing my wheels when bradc was telling me to put the freshest on the rear! Oops. So I had put them on the front. It's not something I would ordinarily do, it's just that they aren't the right size for the car but (just) fit. Otherwise I'd have bought 225/40/18s all round but a set of winter tyres in these dimensions will be around £500!

They're looking pretty good, much better than they looked on the RX-8 anyway. Subaru - I used to get the RX-8 sideways all the time, wasn't tricky! Especially with Bridgestone Potenza 40s in wet weather - true hell. Even when I didn't want to, it was all over the shop in the cold or wet. That's why I got these tyres in the first place.

Thanks for all the help guys.

I-S
03-02-2008, 04:04 PM
All cars, no matter whether FWD, RWD or 4WD, if you are only replacing two tyres at a time then the best tyres go on the back. Period.

http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_cons_bib_pqr_neuf.jsp

http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php

http://www.etyres.co.uk/flashmovies/new-tyres-rear-etyres.htm

http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&codePage=KLEBER_PAG_CONSEIL3&codeRubrique=8032005184616

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/

If you personally have more combined knowledge than these tyre companies, fitters and industry experts then I salute you.

elnevio
03-02-2008, 07:38 PM
You can't argue with impirical data!

It is interesting that putting the worns on the fronts is better for braking too, as that seems to go against logic for me, seeing as the front tyres do more work. But, thinking further into it, the rear tyres are under a lot less load, so I suppose are easier to lock up, which would be accentuated with worns on (and hey presto! You've swapped ends...). Makes more sense now. It's also interesting that only 20% of people are aware of the advice to put the fresh tyres on the back.

Playing devil's advocate now, and with the cynic's hat on (!), some might say that the major tyre companies always want you to replace tyres in pairs, as this will mean the punters spend more money in the long run - stick with me for the method to my madness. If the general punter buys just two tyres, then they are more likely to purchase a main brand. If they are replacing all four, then they may consider buying budget, as tyres are often seen as a distress purchase (phrase nicked from one of the above websites!). Regardless of where they put their tyres on the car, over a reasonable period of time, they are going to use the same number of tyres. If they replace two tyres, they may spend say £150 on a well-known brand. If they replace all four, they may only spend say £200. So an average of £75 per tyre drops to £50. Worns always going to the front mean that they'd pretty much always only be changing two tyres.

Ok, I'll admit, VERY cynical on the tyre companies by me there. I will make it clear that I am now much more of the opinion, having taken the time to consider the various info, that worns go on the front, regardless. Hey, I'm big enough to admit that my previous misconceptions were just that, misconceptions!

unclepete
04-02-2008, 10:09 AM
WOW! Great debate! I love my tyres, in fact they do waaaaaay too much for me. However, I've never got excited as to what end of the car they go to.

Anyway, I've got a very good reason as to why I am going to keep them where they are for now... If I put the fresh ones on the rear, they would be touching the rear top suspension arm - right now there's literally paper thickness between tyre and arm.

That's why I need 225/40/18s when I can. Thanks again guys.

Wodjno
04-02-2008, 11:35 AM
I'll still be putting my least worns to the front /yes

Unless it is a large amount of difference and then i will purchase either 4 all round or 2 new and put them to the front..

Good debate and as you say how can all that data from all those top company's be wrong :speechles


But they are :scholar:

phosty
15-02-2008, 12:30 AM
It's all been said by others but I vote best tyres at the back too unless you really like losing the back end at the slightest hint of off camber / wet / greasy corners/roundabouts.

When I first got my VR4 I thought 'Great - 4WD, Traction Control, AYC - I can hoof it round any bend'. Unfortunately I was on approx 4mm rear and almost new on the front. I had 3 very scary tail-out experiences, all of them on roundabouts.

I now keep off the fast pedal until I'm aiming straight at the exit. Suppose I should swap em round too.

Subaru ETA
15-02-2008, 07:42 AM
lol but its more fun oversteering then understeering! :p

Nice But
15-02-2008, 10:20 AM
^^^^^ I agree. I put 4 brand new F452's on my stock wheels the other day pulled out of the fitting place sideways...... yay, and I to thought 4WD grippy, grippy.

I have my Evo IX wheels that will have 2 part worns and 2 new....... they will be going worns to the front.

I can only agree with Pete on the RX8..... with RE040 tyres there was very limited grip in the wet/damp/cold. They are a superb tyre in the warm, and when they are warm, but when they're cold they're crap. I used to and still get my 8 sideways easily even with Toyo's, but only when wet........ the dry grip of the RX8 is phenominal....... If you can't get an 8 to slide take the TC off.....it will then.