New piston!

[monkey]

Well, what I thought was just coil packs has now become a bloody piston! The garage man said all the cylinders had well over 150 but number 1 had nothing.

I don't know how it's happened because I was only doing 30 in 4th when it happened. It just started to missfire. I am absolutely gutted, only had it 6 months as well.

Does anyone know where I can get a cheap piston from? I mean dirt cheap because I have no work either.

Thanks

[Kieran]

Oooh, ya bugger!!!

The car's not been running high boost or anything has it? It's very rare for a piston to die without a severe bout of detonation... In fact in nearly 5 years I've only ever seen pistons die when Notrous, silly boost levels or really bad fuel/ignition settings have been used. It's a pretty catastrophic failure.

Maybe it's just a ring snapped or something on the top end that's screwy.... Maybe the Head gasket is leaking? Or have you already torn the block down and found the culprit?

Unfortunately if it is a piston that's NOT going to be cheap!! Even if you manage to get hold of a piston (you could try Mo on here, username of Zedy1, he's posted up his mobile number too), you'd probably need to get the bore re-honed and a set of new rings, which involves taking it all to bits.... and that is asuming NOTHING else is damaged.

Good luck!!

[Nice But]

Could also be a buggered valve, there is 24 of them..... as K says, a holed piston is usually with high revs etc and it sounds 'orrible...... from experience of a grenaded V8.

I would be thinking more of a burn't valve/valve seat. Whichever way it's a head off jobby. Good luck with the diagnosis.

[bradc]

hmm, yes it does seem a bit strange, what exactly is wrong with this faulty piston?

[Paul Beazer]

Hmmm, its gonna be a heads off jobbie by the sound of it. Any bits of metal in the oil?

[Nick Mann]

I take it you are talking compression when you say 5 have got over 150 but 1 has nothing?

TBH, a second hand engine could well end up being cheaper if there is major mechanical damage going on.

Having said that, if you are sure you have a lack of compression, it is worth stripping the top end down and having a look - you never know what you might find. Maybe just a rocker has come off and has jammed a valve open? That would be one example of a very unlikely but potentially easy cure.

[Turbo_Steve]

Agreed: Cheaper to fit a second hand engine than fix your current one. You could always hang on to it, and build a monster later when funds allow. Or possibly stick it on here....someone will want it.

But definitely DEFINITELY whip the head off and have a look.
IF it turns out to be something simple, it's going to have cost you the price of a torque wrench and a new headgasket. And you can borrow my torque wrench ;)

[Nutter_John]

where abouts in the Uk are u monkey as there maybe a member near by who may be able to help .

And i agree with everything that has been said by the time you have opened the engine replaced the piston /rod and replace the shells , headgasket etc etc it would cost a hell of a lot , pick up a second hand engine and replace it

You may also find someone willing to buy your old engine off you to re-coup some money , like me ;)

[pitslayer]

what do you mean by no compression. Sure the head gasket hasnt gone. Or like said dropped a valve or one of your rings might have gone. Destroying a piston sounds well wrong i should know

[monkey]

Thanks for the help.

The car's at the garage at the moment, I'm going to go see them in a day or two, see what's happening.

The only quote I have for an engine is 1300 everything included!

[Nutter_John]

seems a little on the high sidebut depneds on the milage on it , who has provided you with that quote ? and does the include fitting , all fuilds and a cambelt /water pump change . if it does include all the above then 1.3k doesn't sound too bad

[monkey]

Nah, this was just a guy off the internet I phoned yesterday. Woluld have to pay the garage to put it in!

[Nutter_John]

your looking at up to 20 hrs labor to take out old engine and put the new one in , this includes replacing all the fuilds and cambelt /water pump

as for price somewhere between £500 and £700 to do the swap

last engines I have bought was £400 quid , one was £950 , one was £300 , and I missed out on a £500 engine . The £950 engine had 52,000 on the clock

[monkey]

Where did you get them from? I can't find anywhere, I don't know where to look

[Nutter_John]

I will make some calls and see what i can find

[monkey]

Brilliant mate, thankyou

[The Vee]

Yeah, NJ is right. I paid £1300 for mine two and a half years ago when they were much scarcer. Seems they come up reasonably often now, so of course prices have dropped as demand is satisfied.

[Eurospec]

I would also be very tempted to put a 2nd hand engine in that. Its almost bound to be cheaper than replacing the piston. Plus if there is bore damage you are into a total rebuild really anyway.

Cheers,

Ben.

[Turbo_Steve]

but Really really take the head off! If it is something in the head rather than the bottom end, then it's going to be much cheaper to repair than going the full engine route. If it's a holed piston, then presumably it still starts, but chucks oil out of the exhaust pipe and runs like a bag of bolts? A problem in the head will mean much less oily smoke, but still runs like pants.

[monkey]

Well no oil whatsoever comes out the exhaust, makes over 4psi when revved at idle. It sounds like a flat 4 subaru engine, but definately no smoke at all.

I'm going to the garage tommorrow to see what's happening. Should it make smoke if it was a piston?

[Nick Mann]

There is oil under the piston. If there is a hole in the piston, then I would say that you should be getting oil in the cylinder. Thus when the fuel/air ignites, the oil does too, and you exhaust turns a lovely shade of grey/blue.

If there is no grey/blue vapour from the exhaust, then I'd be questioning the diagnosis even more.

[peter thomson]

A holed piston would have clouds of blue smoke.

[monkey]

I'll tell them that. Definately not a tiny bit of smoke or cloudyness or anything.

Thanks a lot for helping!

[Turbo_Steve]

In fact, to be honest it sounds more like a coilpack or sparkplug has failed.

Does it smell really fuelly?

[monkey]

Well I can't remember now, I think it did. BUt why would one cylinder out of them all show no compression at all? I said at the time to him, could it just be a ring or something? I mean, it was only doing 1k revs at the most. I'll update you all when I get back.

Again, thanks to you all for helping me.

[Turbo_Steve]

Ohh forgot about the compression test. Stuck / damaged valve is most likely, then. Head off yet? :)

[Nick Mann]

I agree with Steve. A broken/missing ring is going to give you the same issues as a hole in the piston. i.e. there will be blue smoke aplenty if you have a problem bad enough to give you zero compression.

[monkey]

They taking the pee out of me, they've had the dam car a week and he's not had time to get the head off! Apparently, on monday.....

[Nutter_John]

Hmm should only take a couple of hours to take the head off ( well depends if it is the front or back )

[monkey]

The front one. I know it won't take long, thay have been saying I'll do it tommorrow for a week! So got to wait till monday now.

I have a Calibra turbo which the wishbone snapped on, so I got to do that on my drive this week.

[monkey]

Oh, this is my car

http://pichostonline.com/u/080308/1175e8f9a4.jpg

[Nutter_John]

looks nice , how long have you had her

ps I'm waiting to hear back about a few engines , but as everyone has said above sounds more like a valve issue , we took the head off one that had lost compression in the back right piston but had not hold out

[monkey]

If it is just a valve, is that expensive? Can it be fixed easy?

I've only had her 6 months, says 77,000 on the clock, but it only got changed to mph 2 year ago so not sure of the miles and kilometers.

I've changed the oil + filter 3 times, put a fancy tv/dvd touchscreen thingy in, changed the plugs, got a profec b-2 boost controller on, and polished about 20 times! Really miss my baby, driving round in my mates 17 year old escort!!

[monkey]

Just rang the garage and they have said it is a bent valve.

Will that have damaged the piston? And will it be expensive for me? They said they can't give me an idea of a price!!

I just want to make sure I don't get ripped off

[The Vee]

I'd also be interested in why the valve is bent. Did it drop or has the timing belt slipped(lucky if it only caught one) Obviously the engine was turned to do the compression test, but has it actually run since the problem started? So many questions, sorry!!

[Nick Mann]

^^^^^^^^

What he said!

[monkey]

Yeah it's run since, revved and stuff by the garage. I don't know how it happened, I thought the cambelt might of slipped when it first happened. I just don't know, but yes it's been run.

Do they get stuck somehow?

[The Vee]

Yeah it's run since, revved and stuff by the garage. I don't know how it happened, I thought the cambelt might of slipped when it first happened. I just don't know, but yes it's been run.

Do they get stuck somehow?

Very rarely, but it can happen.

[psbarham]

if its just one, then it sounds like the cam has been moved when the timing belt was being done.

[Turbo_Steve]

^^^^^^^ What they said :D
Would also be suspicious of cambelt change..tensioner or stretching is likely to have done more damage (unless you're incredibly lucky).

Ask to see the engine with the head off, if you can, (ideally take some photos and post on here!) but they should be able to show you damaged valve, possible damage to piston crown, and a careful inspection of the bores to make sure nothing has got caught and damaged rings / lands / bores themselves. All good practice to ensure you get good value for money, if you know what I mean.
Also, I would be inclined to ensure a new headgasket is fitted once it's been repaired, and a decent oil flush and change, and a new filter. If a valve has been crunched, you're going to have some metal in there somewhere.

Guys, you know these engines better than me...what are the chances that one of his lifters caught? Worth changing whilst it's in bits?

[Nick Mann]

I haven't heard of a lifter causing a bent valve.

I have seen a rocker come off a lifter after a bit of ring land presumably jammed under the valve and kept it open enough for the rocker to dislodge whilst the cam was out of contact. I don't think that even that case ended with a bent valve, though.

[monkey]

Good news! Just rang the garage to see how things are going. He said it was a valve that had stuck open, nothing bent or broken!!

They get the head back tommorrow from the engineering shop, so should have my baby back next week!!

Thanks for the help and advice chaps!

Oh, and it's good news for work too, just started at Lancashire Double Glazing building their conservatories, it's too easy but apparantly you can earn good money! I need it with this car!

[Kieran]

Well, that's good news.... But how bizzare!! :speechles

[bradc]

out of curiosity, why, and was in an intake or exhaust valve?

[monkey]

It was at the front, the one next to the air filter. He said some aluminium had wedged it open, but nothing was broke.

I panicked for a minute, thinking where it could of come from, and then I remembered that when I towed the car to the garage to get the gear linkage fixed, I used a bar, which then put a hole in the intercooler, which I then got welded. And some aluminium must of gone inside the intercooler and been blown inside the engine!

So it was probably the intake valve that got stuck? Because the boost Profec boost thingy only showed -19 at idle, instead of -99. That's why I first thought a pipe must of come off somewhere

[Nutter_John]

[quote=monkey]It was at the front, the one next to the air filter. He said some aluminium had wedged it open, but nothing was broke.

Would not be 100% confident that nothing else was screwed

I panicked for a minute, thinking where it could of come from, and then I remembered that when I towed the car to the garage to get the gear linkage fixed,

You should never tow a 4 wheel car on its wheels , it should only be done via a flatbed as you can screw the drivetrain


I used a bar, which then put a hole in the intercooler, which I then got welded. And some aluminium must of gone inside the intercooler and been blown inside the engine![

FFS , suggest you get the engine looked at as how do you know that there was / is only one piece !!!!
/quote]

[monkey]

I know about not towing a 4wd car, I used to have a calibra turbo. I towed it with the engine on and all the wheels on the ground.

They should check the engine before they put it together anyway, i hope!

[The Vee]

It was at the front, the one next to the air filter.

That would sound like an exhaust valve . So a bit of aluminium has blown through thr combustion chamber and lodged itself in the valve guide is what you're saying? Think as others have said and also I'd be looking at flushing intercooler and piping to manifold etc

Just re-read your post maybe the aluminium was just on the valve seat, but I'd still be doing the checks.

[psbarham]

That would sound like an exhaust valve . So a bit of aluminium has blown through the combustion chamber and lodged itself in the valve guide is what you're saying? Think as others have said and also I'd be looking at flushing intercooler and piping to manifold etc

Just re-read your post maybe the aluminium was just on the valve seat, but I'd still be doing the checks.

trouble is its just come all the way through the intake system, and you can garentee it didn't go though the inlet valve in one hit, so it woukld have sat there rattleing around on top of the valve bouncing off the intake tract, then its sat on top of the piston for a bit, even 1 second at 3000 rpm the pistons just done 300 strokes of the bore, so the damage could be a lot wrse than 1 bent valve, i wouldn't be happy with the garage if all they do is change one valve.

[Eurospec]

The danger is that if there has been metal in there it might still be on its way through the system.

Certainly hot bits of ally floating round will be 'bad' (using the egon spengler definition!)

A bit of ally wedging a valve open means it either came from the damage to the i/c or from elsewhere. Eitherway, that ally has been through at least one side of a very fast spining turbo.......

I'd be asking for both heads to come off to check for damage and both turbos. Then completely strip everything from the air filter to the throttle body to check for more bits and any damage.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Ben.

[Nick Mann]

I would not be looking so deep. I guess the action plan depends on if you are going to get compensation from the garage that decided bits of aluminium in your intercooler is a good idea.

The possible action plans include:

If someone else is paying, then do what Ben suggests above.
If you are paying and you want to be sure your engine is in perfect condition, then do what Ben suggest above.
If you are short of readies and you are footing the bill, then my suggestion would be to remove the intercooler and pipework to the intake manifold and make sure it is spangly clean. Realise that head damage/bore damage is going to cost more to put right than a second hand engine. Replace the cleaned pipework (At least you aren't going to keep throwing more aluminium in to the cylinders!) and fire the car up. If it works, keep a close eye on it for a few thousand miles. If it doesn't, go back to the second hand engine idea.

The last way is not the correct way, and not the best way, but it could turn out to be the be the cheapest way. I can't and won't tell you to do that, but I would seriously consider it if I was in your shoes and I had to foot the bill.

[Turbo_Steve]

100% with Nick there.
The turbos are the wrong side of the intercooler, so unlikely to have any inlet damage, and I'd be amazed if a small chunk of Ally that made it through the engine still had the ability to damage the exhaust side.

One head is off and checked, so that's great.
I'd definitely check all the pipework is clear.
If your intercooler was repaired and not replaced then I would be flushing it.
If it was replaced then I would start examining everything very thoroughly for where this metal came from.