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View Full Version : Injectors, high or low impedence ??



Louis
24-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Hi,
Before anyone asks, I have used the search button!.

As far as I can make out, the 6a13TT uses High impedence injectors, the evos use low impedence injectors, the gto's use low inpedence and are only 360.

Some people have used evo injectors, without any mods and have said they are running ok. The concensus seems to be that the low impedence evo injectors would work for a while but would burn out the ecu.
There is mention of building a resistor pack, to go with the evo ones to srt out the problem.
Is there a definitive answer to "What injectors are a good upgrade".
I am looking for 550 ish injectors, can anyone say what fits and what mods are required or is there an off the shelf option for the injectors, all comments welcome, cheers Louis

Gowf
24-03-2008, 08:26 PM
I have 550cc RC injectors for the GTO in mine. You definately do need to put 6 pull down resistors inline inorder to get them running properly... If you search Jeff Lucious's site 3si.org for info on NA to TT conversions there's loads of info on how he did it with the relevent resistor values. I would tell you the values myself, but i really cant remember as they were fitted 6-7months ago now, and everythings well insulated.

As for off the shelf, Nutter John is running 530's i think which were for a 200sx. If using these, or infact the GTO ones, you do have to space out the fuel rail a little (well... to around twice the orignal spacing), but with the 200sx's you dont need to change the wiring loom at all.

Hope that Helps a bit

Louis
24-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Ta very much, I will check out the sites, the 200sx wouldn't be too hard to find, ta

Gowf
24-03-2008, 08:56 PM
Are you still using standard tubs? Just curious as to why you want to upgrade the injectors, to remove fuel cut? If so the 530's will definately do that

Nutter_John
24-03-2008, 09:01 PM
RHDjapan had them when i got them , worked out at around 300 quid for the six

this is the product description

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/SARD-530cc-Fuel-Injector-1JZ-GTE-VVTi-Soarer-Mark-II-Chaser-Cresta-14506

Louis
24-03-2008, 09:21 PM
Ta very much for all info. Do the RHD Japan ones rewuire spacers or any mods or are they a straight swap?.
Standard turbos at the mo.

Nutter_John
24-03-2008, 09:22 PM
they need spacers and a bigger bridge between the fuel rails

Gowf
24-03-2008, 09:45 PM
they need spacers and a bigger bridge between the fuel rails


Or a twin feed and return!:pimp2:

orionn2o
25-03-2008, 12:18 AM
I don't know how well this would work but an standard differential op amp shows a high impedance input and and low impedance output, so this would stop the ecu burn out issue.

Louis
25-03-2008, 09:34 AM
I don't know how well this would work but an standard differential op amp shows a high impedance input and and low impedance output, so this would stop the ecu burn out issue.

Can you explain a bit more on this??, please

orionn2o
25-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Well any kind of buffer amp or decent transister circuit expects/assumes a high impedance input and gives a low impedance output. These are figures that could be effectively changed and the buffer would just sit between the ecu and your injector.

The basic theory is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier

Check out basic non inverting amp and op amp golden rules.

Nutter_John
25-03-2008, 10:11 AM
low impedance injectors run at about 4-6 ohms , high impedance ones run at aroun 12phms . So all that Gowf has done it fit so inline resisters to bring the level to the same .

I can only see issue with using an op amp and thats if it was in slight delay in the firing of the injector

orionn2o
25-03-2008, 10:40 AM
I had thought about this John, but bearing in mind you can get op amps to run at 600MHz + I couldnt see that being an issue. (You can imagine the speed required for video processing)

For people who don't play with these things, thats a rise time of 1.6nS which is under one millionth of a second.

I guess judging by the fact that high impedance is only actually 12 ohms rather than a high impedance, resistor matching could be the way to go. Although driving a much higher impedance from the ECU shouldn't be a problem (as the current output is effectively much less). The problem comes when you drive a low impedance output from a source not geared up to the job. The ECU may be driving itself to its limit to supply the current required.

Of course don't take this as gospel as I don't know if the ECU measures the current output as a check to see if the injectors are working properly??

pitmac
25-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Where did the information come from that the 6A13TT has high impedence injectors?
Mitsubishi without exception has used low impedence injectors on Turbo engines and high impedence on NA engines and this goes back to Cordia's
Galant VR4 ( 4G63 ) Lancer GSR's, Evos, GTO's Eclipse's Talons

Nutter_John
25-03-2008, 12:36 PM
the information came from years and years of research , have a serach around on here and you will find lots of discussions about

Louis
25-03-2008, 01:34 PM
Where did the information come from that the 6A13TT has high impedence injectors?
Mitsubishi without exception has used low impedence injectors on Turbo engines and high impedence on NA engines and this goes back to Cordia's
Galant VR4 ( 4G63 ) Lancer GSR's, Evos, GTO's Eclipse's Talons

There has been quite a bit of checking done, and BEHN on here, who specialises in GTO's confirmed the info, If Keiran pops in, I'm sure he may have a caps part number and info etc.
I am after a definitive what is useable and what mads are required, all info is good.

bradc
26-03-2008, 08:12 AM
I have spare injectors, could I just measure the resistance of them and comfirm it, or is it more complicated than that?

orionn2o
26-03-2008, 09:05 AM
Although you could get the resistance Brad (which is the DC component of impedance), its harder to measure reactance (the other component) without supplying a sine wave and then manipulating the results.

pitmac
26-03-2008, 10:34 AM
Multi point Fuel Injection Workshop manual PWEE9013-F
Injector Coil Resistance @ 20c (68F) low Impedence 2-3 Ohm
High Impedence 13-16 ohm
Please Quote technical sources specifically.

Eurospec
27-03-2008, 09:59 AM
GTO TT and all Evo's have high impedance injectors for certain.

The 6A13TT, 6A12 and the 6G72 all use low impedance injectors.

If you want to run high impedance injectors in a VR4 you need power resistors, the big ceramic things, not the little electronic components- they will pop. And Power resistors get hot, so mind to move yours gowf!

Cheers,

Ben.

Nutter_John
27-03-2008, 10:02 AM
Ben are you sure thats the right way round

mpau009
27-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Yeah, most of the info i have come across has me thinking the evo ones are low impedence.

And from CVR4 i had thought that ours were high, and thats why a ballast was required?

Now i know even less, and am twice as confused.

I know people claim to running evo injectors with no additions, and no problems, but if someone can give a definitive answer like the threads i had thought were taken as given by Valmes?

http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm

Eurospec
27-03-2008, 10:31 AM
Sorry- no- its the other way! You know what i mean!

The groupings are correct though if you see what i mean- its early!

Cheers,

Ben.

pitmac
27-03-2008, 10:51 AM
GTO TT injectors = ID NO BDL360
Galant 4G63T AWD = ID NO B450L
LancerGSR T = ID NO MDL390
If some one can post the number on the injector it should tell us whether it is high or low impendence

orionn2o
27-03-2008, 11:48 PM
GTO TT and all Evo's have high impedance injectors for certain.

The 6A13TT, 6A12 and the 6G72 all use low impedance injectors.

If you want to run high impedance injectors in a VR4 you need power resistors, the big ceramic things, not the little electronic components- they will pop. And Power resistors get hot, so mind to move yours gowf!

Cheers,

Ben.

How much power do they run then Ben? Are we talking amps?

Nutter_John
27-03-2008, 11:56 PM
Matt , the original post that Ben made was the wrong way round

evo and GTO tt are low

6a13 are low

Louis
28-03-2008, 12:07 AM
. . . ?

zentac
28-03-2008, 08:46 AM
Matt , the original post that Ben made was the wrong way round

evo and GTO tt are low

6a13 are low

not quite.....

6A12, 6A13 are high

EVO, GTOTT are low

Im running theses (which are high) http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/SARD-530cc-Fuel-Injector-1JZ-GTE-VVTi-Soarer-Mark-II-Chaser-Cresta-14506

Nutter_John
28-03-2008, 09:25 AM
yeah yeah , I got infected with Benitus , 6A13 are HIGH HIGH HIGH

and those injectors are the same ones I've got in

Gowf
28-03-2008, 05:02 PM
GTO TT and all Evo's have high impedance injectors for certain.

The 6A13TT, 6A12 and the 6G72 all use low impedance injectors.

If you want to run high impedance injectors in a VR4 you need power resistors, the big ceramic things, not the little electronic components- they will pop. And Power resistors get hot, so mind to move yours gowf!

Cheers,

Ben.

They honestly dont get as hot as you think. Obviously in the original mitsi packs they deal with all 6, whereas mine are in 2 3's. They do get warm but they're not getting hot enough to melt insulation or anyway near.

Nutter_John
28-03-2008, 05:04 PM
anyone got a clamp amp meter we could check it with , would not expect them to draw too much current maybe 1 or 2 amps

Kenneth
29-03-2008, 12:40 AM
anyone got a clamp amp meter we could check it with , would not expect them to draw too much current maybe 1 or 2 amps

peak and hold can draw up to 4 amps peak, then drop to around 1amp holding current.

Nutter_John
29-03-2008, 12:45 AM
thanks Ken , 4 amps is not that much really , means they draw around 50 wats each .

msassoon
29-03-2008, 10:52 AM
You can get high flow high impedance injectors from RC engineering, Venom injectors and a few other places. There is no need for resistors then, which only slow the injector response. This is what I did in my old GTO NA when it was supercharged.

Louis
29-03-2008, 01:22 PM
I think the prob is getting hugh flow, high impedence ones that will phisicaly fit, there doesn't seem to be ones that are a direct swap. I shall check the websites you suggest, maybe they do them.a direct swap.
The ones on RHDJapan seem the best option so far.
I am checking through various other Toyota models.

Nutter_John
29-03-2008, 10:32 PM
You can get high flow high impedance injectors from RC engineering, Venom injectors and a few other places. There is no need for resistors then, which only slow the injector response. This is what I did in my old GTO NA when it was supercharged.

errr sorry but thats wrong a resistor will not slow up the response at all , you will find that 99% of all Low impedance injectors have a faster response time than high ones , for instance there are some 1000cc low ones that have a response of 0.65ms where as the sard ones I have which are 530cc have a response time of 1.1 ms , may not seem much but thats huge

orionn2o
30-03-2008, 11:03 PM
John I think you and Msassoon may be speaking at cross purposes. A resistor will to a certain extent slow the response of any injector, and as you said Low impedance injectors do have a faster response time. So adding a resistor will slow it down.

This is down to a higher resistance to change in charge values.

Interestingly though, many power op amp circuits will source 5A so they could be a viable option for impedance matching.

Kenneth
30-03-2008, 11:24 PM
Agreed. Resistors will slow down low impedance injectors, however it wont necessarily (or likely) be slower than a high impedance injector so long as you get the resistance correct.

One thing to note is that the standard ECU will have the injector lag programmed into it, so using faster injectors may cause fuel supply irregularities.

I have a spare ECU on my desk at home, I really should open it up again and see if I can get a part number for the drivers. They may be able to handle low impedance injectors.

If they run low impedance injectors fine but occasionally burn out, it may simply be a case of heat sinking the drivers on the ECU. From memory there isn't a lot of heat sinking there.

Does anyone have an ECU from a GTO TT (Ben?) or some other ECU that drives low impedance injectors? Might be worthwhile to see the difference in the driver mountings in the ECU or compare the drivers... Another option may just be removing and replacing the drivers with higher spec ones.

Kenneth
31-03-2008, 06:27 AM
only thing I could find that match the transistors in my 2001 ECU is the following

http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=55252&part-number=2SK2926S

It looks about right too (spec wise)

What is interesting is that it should be well capable of driving a low impedance injector, providing there is enough heat sinking... 15A drain current is plenty for just about any injector!

Might be worth putting some extra heat sinking on and going for it :)

bradc
31-03-2008, 06:29 AM
well they seem to be working fine in some people's cars, so it can't be a huge problem.

I'm guessing the Autronic will support every kind of injector

Eurospec
31-03-2008, 08:28 AM
Most of the standalones have configurable drivers brad, so yeah it should be fine.

We have TT and NA ecu's here so we could have a look Kenneth- what am i looking for?

What i do notice though is that the cars that run low impedance injectors have resistor packs on board- that would indicate the drivers might be the same right? GTO TT its at the back left of the bay, Evo its at the back right. Cant miss it, they are on a big heat sink.

As to physical fit into a 6A13TT, the highest flowing injectors we have that physically fit are 425's. Everything else, be it low or high that i have seen requires fuel rail customisation. Even the 'big' gto/evo type injectors fit in there though after you mod the rail mountings. The rear raill still clears the plenum.

Cheers,

Ben.

Kenneth
31-03-2008, 09:58 AM
Here is a pic of my 2002 ECU, I have circled the injector drivers in red.

uploaded/1403/1206953345.jpg

In some other colour (one outside of the 16 that heterosexual men are able to distinguish) I have circled one of the drivers and traced the main current track to the pin (pin 1)

As you can see there are no resistors that go from the current drain to the pin. The circuit board has solder (has been tinned) on both sides and the transistor is connected to both, this is the heat sink as such.

it should be easy enough to identify the drivers in any ECU, they are essentially a group of transistors equal to the number of injectors and have heat sinking.

The transistors have a number or something on them, those numbers are the key to finding a data-sheet for the transistors and seeing what sort of power they can handle. You may need to clean some of the wax (or whatever it is called) off them so you can read it properly.

Madhav
08-01-2009, 06:47 AM
I have 550cc RC injectors for the GTO in mine. You definately do need to put 6 pull down resistors inline inorder to get them running properly... If you search Jeff Lucious's site 3si.org for info on NA to TT conversions there's loads of info on how he did it with the relevent resistor values. I would tell you the values myself, but i really cant remember as they were fitted 6-7months ago now, and everythings well insulated.

As for off the shelf, Nutter John is running 530's i think which were for a 200sx. If using these, or infact the GTO ones, you do have to space out the fuel rail a little (well... to around twice the orignal spacing), but with the 200sx's you dont need to change the wiring loom at all.

Hope that Helps a bit

Need re-open this old thread. Am about to buy new injectors and have searched for hours on here (literally).

I have summed up that we need top feed high impedance injectors, at least 450cc, up to 800cc:

560cc Evo injectors (6 x injectors for 215 pounds delivered off ebay)
They fit, although they're a little long so need fuel rail adjusted, also need either a resistor pack or a full ECU to adjust the impedance level.

Sard injectors: (6 x for around 400 pounds delivered from RHD)
Either in a kit for the chaser/soarer/mark II, R32GT-t or just buy them individually. Should fit with minor fuel rail mods, they are the right impedance so no need for resistor pack. Various cc, 450-800cc

200sx injectors: (6 x for around 185 pounds delivered off ebay)
I know nothing about these? Just read it on this forum...? Love some more info!!

Nipondenso 450cc injectors (6 x for around 560 pounds from RPW)
Direct fit, no mods nec, but the price is silly!

I have a haltech miniceptor, and if I could get away with keeping it whilst putting in bigger injectors, then this would save me a packet as the haltech E11s are like 1000 pounds...

If there's no other way, then I'll get the E11, but I'd prefer to not have to get both the E11 and the nipondenso injectors, ends up costing far too much.

Any ideas and I'm all ears.

Thanks a lot for your input

mpau009
08-01-2009, 07:37 AM
Need re-open this old thread. Am about to buy new injectors and have searched for hours on here (literally).

I have summed up that we need top feed high impedance injectors, at least 450cc, up to 800cc:

560cc Evo injectors (6 x injectors for 215 pounds delivered off ebay)
They fit, although they're a little long so need fuel rail adjusted, also need either a resistor pack or a full ECU to adjust the impedance level.

Sard injectors: (6 x for around 400 pounds delivered from RHD)
Either in a kit for the chaser/soarer/mark II, R32GT-t or just buy them individually. Should fit with minor fuel rail mods, they are the right impedance so no need for resistor pack. Various cc, 450-800cc

200sx injectors: (6 x for around 185 pounds delivered off ebay)
I know nothing about these? Just read it on this forum...? Love some more info!!

Nipondenso 450cc injectors (6 x for around 560 pounds from RPW)
Direct fit, no mods nec, but the price is silly!

I have a haltech miniceptor, and if I could get away with keeping it whilst putting in bigger injectors, then this would save me a packet as the haltech E11s are like 1000 pounds...

If there's no other way, then I'll get the E11, but I'd prefer to not have to get both the E11 and the nipondenso injectors, ends up costing far too much.

Any ideas and I'm all ears.

Thanks a lot for your input

As you know from OZVR4 iv got the sard 63516 530cc ones, which were pretty cheap at the time from RHD and as easy an install as you will get on standard rails etc. I wonder though if you would be best suited to new rails altogether, in which you could probably make most things work?

Also, i got a thing in the post from RHD saying that they are having a sale until the 15th at the moment, 10% off if you enter "Happy Holidays" at the check out. I dont see why it wouldnt work for anyone?

Madhav
08-01-2009, 07:55 AM
Excellent, 10%, that actually really helps! Just tried it and it worked! Just gotto decide on the size!! 530-800cc? Maybe 650cc is the one?

Catalan
08-01-2009, 10:28 AM
We here in Moscow. install in 6a13tt galant vr-4 is low impedance injectors from EVO-9 (560 cc) without any resistor pack ... , and reflash our ecu for it, all process was controlled with wide-band labda. Our schematics in ECU is will avaible use low impedance injectors withour problem, evo ~ 4 Om impedance, some friends use 2 Om imedance with gas injectors, and no problem too.

sorry for poor english

Catalan
08-01-2009, 10:30 AM
here link on our manual :D

http://www.vr-4.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=3720

Madhav
08-01-2009, 11:47 AM
Your english is fine, I am happy for your input.

I decided to go with 650cc sard injectors, they are a little bit more expensive, but are new and are also high impedance, so no problems there.

Reflash the ECU? I heard it was possible, but here in Australia nobody has successfully done it. I would really love to know how to do it, as I am about to pay a lot of money for a new ECU.

The link is all in russian no? Also I think I can not get access because I am not a member. If there is another way u could give the information this would be great.

Thanks

Louis
08-01-2009, 12:27 PM
Depending on how you are controlling your fueling, you may have probs getting it to tick over, idle, with the larger injectors.
If you use fuel tables and trick the ECU by pretending it is the normal injectors but adjusting fuel and air to compensate, it works up to a point then it will stall, or run very rich on idle!.
There are threads on here discussing this.

Catalan
08-01-2009, 08:00 PM
ECU reflashing is possible, and one man in Moscow, do it for us. (around 1 year, or little long time)

he reflash ecu across diag connectors. , he works in team ecuflash, and some time later all users ecuflash will do it.
all timings for injectors he cut from EVO 8 ECU, and add it to our. no need any compensation for AFR, was only problem with minimum time injector open (very rich AFR in idle) , he solve this problem, and now all ok, with EVO injectors (and about expensive - here in Russia, i can buy used evo 8-9 injectors around 100$ for evo set (4 injector), it's absolutly not expensive.

if author accept, i translate her "manaul" on this site, or maybe he is make it.

Catalan
08-01-2009, 08:30 PM
ok some pics with manual

author: Ilya (nickname VR-4Fan)

need items

stock vr-4

http://img139.imageshack.us/img13/4853/dsc02072gn5.jpg


evo 8-9 injectors (sorry no made photos)

stock spacers under fuel rail in double quantity
because evo injectors is higher in 1 cm, and we need double spacer.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4189/dsc02050ae2.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4315/dsc02051ml1.jpg

and we need longer bolts of fuel rail fixed. ( in our market we find bolts from valve cap of 406 engine of car GAZ VOLGA)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2764/dsc02053fu4.jpg

also we need evo injectos connectors (in our market we find it compatible from VAZ 2110 injector connectors, very sorry in others our vaz not like evo :D )

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/723/dsc02065we9.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/723/dsc02065we9.jpg

and now assembly

here is assembly looks

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/4829/dsc02052mx2.jpg

and prepare wires with new connectors

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7976/dsc02081jy6.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5928/dsc02082os5.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8689/dsc02084ez9.jpg

and final view

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4243/dsc02085db1.jpg

it's absolutly not expensive upgrade for injectors, to cool evo injectors :D

Madhav
09-01-2009, 04:42 AM
Great, thanks a lot for the information. Now I know for sure it's possible.

And if you could post the information about ECU reflashing I'm sure many many people would be very happy all over the world.

Catalan
09-01-2009, 12:19 PM
sorry, but ECU reflash only one man in Moscow, and he still not ready to public it.

I only can get binary file of this modified ECU.

this man said in near time he public this. but near time still not yet.

but now he make reflashing for us around 50$ :D it's very cheap :D