Oh dear - caught speeding

[martin_y]

Been in the UK 8 years, and its my first one, so I am not sure what to do.

I was doing 37 in a 30 zone on a quiet sunday morning.

After the flash, I went back along the road the way I came to check the signage. ( I came out of a parking garage). I checked the signs, and there are only speed limit signs on the left.

Do they have to put a sign on both sides of the road?

[miller]

Unfortunatley I dont think the signs matter which side of the road and wether there is one or two.

When you say you have been here 8 years are you still on your international licence or have you transferred it to a UK one?

If its a foreign license then the courts have to decide your fate as points cannot be applied to any licence other than those issued by DVLA.

If its foreign then its usually its a £60 fine and a day out in a freshly ironed shirt getting your hands slapped by a judge!

Mike

[martin_y]

Its a full UK licence unfortunately.

What would happen if I said my brother from Thailand was driving? :-) (hypothetically of course !)

[Physician]

Its a full UK licence unfortunately.

What would happen if I said my brother from Thailand was driving? :-) (hypothetically of course !)

As it stands, it's really not a big deal. You will get a letter telling you to pay £60 and your licence will be stamped with 3 points. That remains on your licence for 4 years although it is only valid for 3 years.

However, if you say that your brother was driving and they find out you were telling a lie the consequences are far more serious and you could even end up in prison - do NOT do it! :happy:

[martin_y]

ok, so , whats the hit on insurance for 3 points. And I suppose I'd better take out my policy before I get the points.

[Nutter_John]

They normally ask if you have any points or if any are pending , for 3 points i don't think they care too much , but 6 and above they start to raise the premium

[I-S]

ok, so , whats the hit on insurance for 3 points. And I suppose I'd better take out my policy before I get the points.

You mean renew your policy?

37 in 30 will be £60 and 3 points. Don't claim it was someone else, don't try anything like that because you've already admitted it was you. It probably won't be a big deal on insurance or anything.

[martin_y]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I will send off the form admitting it was me, then.

Isaac, I am in the process of buying a Legnum. So it will be a new policy. (I hope to sell the RX-7 and the 323)

[Physician]

ok, so , whats the hit on insurance for 3 points. And I suppose I'd better take out my policy before I get the points.

It is irrelevant WHEN you get the points.

Suppose you get some new insurance NOW and in 3 or 6 or 8 months you get caught speeding - you MUST inform the insurance company immediately or your insurance is not valid.

[Throbbe]

Hold on a second. Have you had anything through the post yet? While they all have flash units, they don't always have film in, so you may not have been caught.

NIP should be issued in 14 days I believe, so if nothing happens in a couple of weeks you can relax.

[martin_y]

ah, yes, I received a letter, asking to identify the driver.. I have been flashed many times, but this is the first time a letter came.

[HMG1K]

SP30 - the code for this conviction - is so common nowadays with motorists that it pays to shop around for insurance... Some will charge a premium for one SP30 - other insurance companies don't care and allow you a 1 x SP30 grace.

[d i c k i e s]

why does everything have to be so hard in the UK? hahaha.

being caught by speed camera, = fine!
being caught by cop with speed camera = huge fines!

Id rather be snapped a speed camera than a cop with speed camera. consequences are alot harsher when the cop stops ya.

[Ryan]

why does everything have to be so hard in the UK? hahaha.

being caught by speed camera, = fine!
being caught by cop with speed camera = huge fines!

Id rather be snapped a speed camera than a cop with speed camera. consequences are alot harsher when the cop stops ya.

Yeah, no demerits with a camera here...

[martin_y]

RESULT !

I can attend "driver awareness" training instead of having 3 points docked !

:-) --- it might actually be interesting anyway!

[bradc]

Yeah it might be quite a cool course to go on :)

[PaddyB]

RESULT !

I can attend "driver awareness" training instead of having 3 points docked !

:-) --- it might actually be interesting anyway!

Happy days. I've not been on it myself but I hear it's good. Beware - if you get done again these points will be applied & you'll end up with 3 + "whatever you get for the new offense" points. Crappy days.

BTW I had an SP30 & it didn't alter my premium: got done doing 34 in a 30 just as it became a 60 (I was going past the sign). That's North Wales Police for you /Grrr. I was tempted to appeal as any doubt over the calibration or my actual position (was I inside the 60 ??) & I'd be OK, but if it was unsuccessful I ran the risk of being fisted (as it were).

[Paul Beazer]

RESULT !

I can attend "driver awareness" training instead of having 3 points docked !

:-) --- it might actually be interesting anyway!
You jammy get!

[martin_y]

ok, not soooo jammy. I am paying £75 for the training instead of £60 for the fine, but I still think its a win!

[Nevman]

If its a foreign license then the courts have to decide your fate as points cannot be applied to any licence other than those issued by DVLA.

I know it's irrelevant in this case but the above is not really correct.
If you have international license then DVLA will issue you the paper part of the license and apply the points and court visit may or may not happen.
What it means is that if you get the points limit, you won't loose the license but you'll be banned from driving in UK.

[martin_y]

Well I booked and paid my £75, and I attended last week.

It was a 1/2 day, about 30 students, with 2 instructors, one of them is an ex-Police driver Instructor. Lecture only ( no driving ). Same amount of females/males. A broad representation of age / walks of life/type, or however you want to class people!

It was actually very interesting. We were allowed to speak freely, so we could openly say what speeds we actually drive at. Everyone in the room had been caught in a 30 zone. Speeders from other zones are trained seperately.

There was an "attitude" survey done by a little remote each student had, and the results were compiled. I answered honestly and scored low on "anger", "impatience", and medium on "competitive". The questions on "competitive" , I answered a lot of them "yes". I dont mean I race everyone everywhere. I will compete for safety's sake. That means I would perhaps maximise the space around my car in the interest of safety. I mean, I might accelerate quicker than the next guy , on the on-ramp to a Motorway, to get into the biggest gap I can see. However, the questions were ambiguous, and I think they were measuring for "racing", so my results, I dont think are accurate. Anyway, I still passed (as did everyone).

They showed some accidents that happened at low speeds (thank goodness they didnt show any guts and gore!).

We learned about how to tell the speed limits when you cant find a sign.

Etc, etc.

One thing I didnt agree on with the instructor - they showed the "think" adverts from telly - Have you seen the one with the car skidding and it hits a boy running across the road with his ball? I pointed out that the car would slow quicker if the driving was not locking the wheels. The instructor thinks that locking the wheels is the quickest way to stop, and that it would take longer to stop with ABS. And even longer with the wheels just at the point of locking ( I thought that was the ultimate).

We were also given a booklet that contained the slides used in the training, and actually when I got home, my wife read it, too.

So Kudos to them, Id rather have done this than pay stupid fine, which does nothing except make the counties richer.

It HAS change my attitude a bit.
It HAS enlightened me.
It HAS made me more aware, I think about the conditions more, and the consequences of speed more.
I now do an indicated 35 (if its safe) in a 30, whereas I used to aim for indicated 40. (partly, admittedly, because I dont want to get caught again!)

Lastly, after the training, I asked the Instructor, one on one, why to drivers get taught to turn pull-push method (Ive never done it, and I cant see its benefits). He said that the main benefit is to keep the hands around 20 to 2. But, I said, in an emergency, its much faster to turn using the cross over method . He agreed, and then proceeded to tell me that they are starting to teach that even 20 to 8 is acceptable, as its been shown that 10 to 2 is very tiring on a long journey.

Am now going to think about doing my IAM again (did it years ago!).

[Nevman]

Great write up Martin.
Looks like the course is not a total waste of time then.


(...)We learned about how to tell the speed limits when you cant find a sign.(...)

Can you tell us how to tell then (I personally go as quick as others if I'm not sure).

[martin_y]

Ok, whats the speed limit if you see no signs, but there are streetlights on one side of the road, or both sides of the road?

[Wodjno]

Ok, whats the speed limit if you see no signs, but there are streetlights on one side of the road, or both sides of the road?

30mph

[martin_y]

John is correct.

Ok, whats the speed limit if there are no signs, and you are on a dual carriageway (a physical barrier between the traffic)?

[Wodjno]

John is correct.

Ok, whats the speed limit if there are no signs, and you are on a dual carriageway (a physical barrier between the traffic)?

70mph

And who's John :thinking:

[Roadrunner]

One thing I didnt agree on with the instructor - they showed the "think" adverts from telly - Have you seen the one with the car skidding and it hits a boy running across the road with his ball? I pointed out that the car would slow quicker if the driving was not locking the wheels. The instructor thinks that locking the wheels is the quickest way to stop, and that it would take longer to stop with ABS. And even longer with the wheels just at the point of locking ( I thought that was the ultimate).

The instructor was correct, if the road surface is dry. If the road surface is anything other than dry, then ABS allows you to slow the car quicker than allowing the car to skid to a stop.

Good write-up, sounds like a worthwhile course. Sounds much more beneficial than receiving a £60 fine and 3 points a couple of weeks after the event ...

[Atik]

LOL - muppet baiting there :D

[martin_y]

70mph

And who's John :thinking:

Sorry, I see JNO and i think it means Johno in your user name.

err, Glen?

[martin_y]

The instructor was correct, if the road surface is dry. If the road surface is anything other than dry, then ABS allows you to slow the car quicker than allowing the car to skid to a stop.

Good write-up, sounds like a worthwhile course. Sounds much more beneficial than receiving a £60 fine and 3 points a couple of weeks after the event ...


I am not sure I agree that breaking to the point of just nearly skidding will take you longer to stop than skidding - In fact I dont think I'll ever agree with that.

[Throbbe]

I am not sure I agree that breaking to the point of just nearly skidding will take you longer to stop than skidding - In fact I dont think I'll ever agree with that.

I'd second that. The coefficient of sliding friction is lower than the coefficient of static friction, so once the tyres are locked you'll skid further.

[valleyforge1]

Hmmmm car drivers they will never learn. Good write up Martin.

Ive always said that people should go for Advanced Driving lessons after they pass there test, this is where you start to learn to drive.

I did my 20 years ago and started instructing other people to drive in a club.
From there I went on to PSV and then to HGV.

The girlfriend as just got a new car and Ive been out in it with her. Shes abit rusty and I told her to get some lessons for refreshing. Dont tell women what to do in driving. Ive been driving since 1982 and passed most tests and driven most things (bar a tank), Ive even done some rallying.

I give advice when Iam asked for it and then after a while told Iam saying to much.

When I shut up Iam told I dont care because Ive gone quite.

After 26 years of driving one thing ive leant is dont teach family to drive.

[martin_y]

Valleyforge.
I am an Instructor in IT. I teach adults, and one thing I know:

You can only teach people who want to learn. So you and I might think it would be fun to teach someone to improve their driving, they wont, unless they are interested, receptive, and willing to learn. So we have to leave it at that.

Ive been trying to remember some IAM stuff, and have started practicing already, but I must now get my wifes (her company pais for an IAM lesson) book out and start re-reading it.

Tell me, are they still anti cross-over steering?

Whats their view these days on heel and toe for changing down?

(these are the 2 things I didnt agree on with them way back in the 80s)

[Nevman]

Ok, whats the speed limit if you see no signs, but there are streetlights on one side of the road, or both sides of the road?
Depends if there is a speed camera :D

[martin_y]

Yep, 30 if I see a camera, 35 if I dont. !

[Wodjno]

Depends if there is a speed camera :D

Bout a Hundred and Twenty then :D

[DickBarton]

Locked wheels that are skidding have no grip therefore they aren't slowing you down...wheels that are still turning but gripping will stop you quicker...it's a physics thing...

[I-S]

Tell me, are they still anti cross-over steering?

Yes. And once you know how to feed the wheel through properly you can steer as quickly with it, so no need for crossing hands.



Whats their view these days on heel and toe for changing down?

Distinctly frowned upon as in most road situations it's unecessary. However, I can't personally see another way to decelerate into a speed limit, eg 60 to 30, down a steep hill (and that happens a lot around here). I suspect that the real reason it's frowned upon is that IAM is targeted at people who may not have the skill or understanding to properly use heel and toe. It would come under brake/gear overlap.

I suggest looking into RoSPA.

[Nevman]

Locked wheels that are skidding have no grip therefore they aren't slowing you down...wheels that are still turning but gripping will stop you quicker...it's a physics thing...
Well... I wouldn't agree with that.
If you say 'physics thing', have you ever heard of friction?
That's what actually slows you down. Dry tarmac and locked wheels will always slow you down quicker (IMHO) than ABS. The situation is completly different on wet/snow/ice cause the friction is very little there.

[Ryan]

I'd second that. The coefficient of sliding friction is lower than the coefficient of static friction, so once the tyres are locked you'll skid further.

I third it - you'd never see Michael Schumacher locking his brakes intentionally in the wet... He'd aim to always cadence brake into the brake / turn zone.

Locking your wheels means you lose both grip and steering direction.

"...Threshold braking, or a good ABS, generally results in the shortest stopping distance in a straight line. ABS, cadence and interference braking are intended to preserve steering control while braking..."

Source: wiki

[martin_y]

for those who dont know the IAm expect you to do this when approaching a corner, lets say you're in 4th, but need 2nd for the corner.

(look, signal)

1. brake down to the correct speed for the corner.
2. Take foot off brake
3. Clutch in and accel to match revs.
4. Select 2nd.
5. Clutch out.

now take the corner.

Heel and toe makes so much more sense to me.

[Nevman]

...or maybe I was wrong... /Devil5

[valleyforge1]

.

Theres always some bright spark out there sayin you shouldnt do it this way or that wayIam in the opinon of being abit old skool and mybe when it comes to subjects like this Ive got abit of vinger in my blood.

Ive been driving for a wile, i would thing Iam pretty decent drive niether good or bad, somebody whats advice ill give it if somebody doesnt I shut up. People today have to much choice and not alot of respect and are to quick to blow there own trumpets.

Until I got to know someone and understand where they are coming from I think its best to let them make mistakes, I would say that sooner are later they will come to you if they want advice, if they truly want to learn.

I would do advanced driving the way they tell you in the police manual. It worked for me if it doesnt work for someone else tuff.

Like I say, theres always some bright spark who will argue with you because they can. Well let them get on with it, listen to what they say, say nothing or just agree with them, walk away and make your own opinion and do whats best for you.

What Road craft said 20 years ago was the bible and still is as far as Iam concerned.

[valleyforge1]

This and then ill shut up. Iam probably wrong with this but where did these rules come from I dont remember these on my test.

No acelarater use in a three point turn.

If some one steps out on to a predestian crossing they have totall right of way. What happened to slow down and a mutual agreement between driver and pedestrian.

Into gear before hand brake is applied, yeah thats full control of the car.

Ram the car into 1st gear on slow approach to traffic lights when 2nd is good enough where did that rule come from.

On askin the person where did these rules come from the answer was my driving instructor, what planet is he off I reply. Well it got me threw my test was the answer. WHAT.

Forget them rules, now you will start to learn to drive.

But thats the way I WAS TAUGHT.

Its wrong ill teach you how to come up to Advanced Driving. Answer not interested.

Ok walk away not my probalem.

Iam threw the test and not interested in what you have to tell me, to much choice you see, even tho the advice is free and you can take it or leave it.

[valleyforge1]

What no one disagreeing with this. Must be losing my touch

[Kenneth]

What no one disagreeing with this. Must be losing my touch

To be perfectly honest I couldn't follow your post at all... Seems to be a collection of statements, but I can't for the life of me coherently work out the ownership of each statement (I assume some are your opinions)

[Nevman]

I'm with you on it Kenneth.
I didn't want to put any comments as I thought that being Polish doesn't help me to understand the language but it looks like natives can't understand it either :D

[elnevio]

It's a conversation - but some quotation marks are required so we know who's saying what. But my stab at it is as follows. My added comments in magenta. I'll leave the Forge's comments in white and his part of the conversation in "quotes", and the other person in yellow. The 'rules' are in red. I hope this works!


This and then ill shut up. Iam probably wrong with this but where did these rules come from I dont remember these on my test.

No acelarater use in a three point turn. In most modern tuition cars - this works fine, and is good for the test as it results in a steady and controlled manoeuvre . In the real world, you use the accelerator a bit, as you can turn around a lot quicker, and sometimes a little throttle is required to prevent stalling, depending on the car.

If some one steps out on to a predestian crossing they have totall right of way. What happened to slow down and a mutual agreement between driver and pedestrian. If you mean a zebra crossing, then the pedestrian always has the ultimate right of way, there has never been a 'mutual agreement'. However, more often these days pedestrians do seem to think that they are invincible and often jump out without a care, 'knowing' that the cars will stop.

Into gear before hand brake is applied, yeah thats full control of the car. I really don't get this one.

Ram the car into 1st gear on slow approach to traffic lights when 2nd is good enough where did that rule come from. This may be somewhat specific to the tuition vehicle. In mrs elnevio's Leon TDI, I find that you need to be in first a really low speeds, otherwise when trying to pull away, it doesn't want to go, without riding the clutch quite a bit.

On askin the person "where did these rules come from" the answer was "my driving instructor", "what planet is he off" I reply. "Well it got me threw my test" was the answer. WHAT.

"Forget them rules, now you will start to learn to drive."

"But thats the way I WAS TAUGHT."

"Its wrong ill teach you how to come up to Advanced Driving." Answer "not interested."

Ok walk away not my probalem.

"I am threw the test and not interested in what you have to tell me," to much choice you see, even tho the advice is free and you can take it or leave it.
The same principle generally applies to any exam these days - students are taught to pass, not to be good at the subject. With driving tuition, the student is taught to pass, with some adjustments to the characteristics of the tuition vehicle.

Add that to the fact that people often don't want unsolicited advice, then you will pretty much always be facing an uphill struggle! /wall

The best tuition is experience - that's just life. :baby:

[martin_y]

..and valleyforge. you said you would shut up after that post, and now you revive it !

:-)

:-)

[valleyforge1]

Its more or less like that elnevio. Fantastic editing.

martin_y.......Not falling out mate but you did want input in thread 33, so I gave it.

Cars kill people I see a accident every day in my wagon. People drive like lunatics these days. The DOT test just isnt enough, that was my view.

It bad enough seeing foreign drivers coming into this country and thinking they can just drive around in this country on their licence. Yes 12 monthes and then pass a British test.

From what ive read in Turkey you drive 100 yards forward and 100 yards back and you pass the test, what use is that over here

[valleyforge1]

I'm with you on it Kenneth.
I didn't want to put any comments as I thought that being Polish doesn't help me to understand the language but it looks like natives can't understand it either :D

Sorry mate this is getting abit close to the bone, so I think ill stop here in my comments. I was just putting my in put in but if this is a licence for a dig at me ill not push topic anymore.

[bernmc]

The instructor thinks that locking the wheels is the quickest way to stop, and that it would take longer to stop with ABS. And even longer with the wheels just at the point of locking ( I thought that was the ultimate).

Crap. I spent quite a bit of time at milbrook practicing braking and exploring braking techniques.

The fastest way to stop on a reasonably even surface (ie similar levels of adhesion at all four wheels) is with threshold braking - ie braking at the point just before the ABS kicks in.

If the surface under each wheel is very different, the ABS is faster and safer eg if one set of wheels is on grass, and the other on tar. Milbrook has an ABS test area with narrow tracks of very different adhesion. You go in at 30 mph with one side of the car on a high grip path, and the other on low grip, take your hands off the wheel, and stamp on the brakes. Its amazing to see the car stop in a straight line everytime.

The advantage of ABS braking in an emergency is that it allows you to turn as well as brake very hard, and still maintain control. Its actually very difficult to do this properly - have a look at the skidmarks on the motorway next time you're out - you often see a skid that curves around whatever the object was... and a bunch of crumpled barriers a little further on. This is because the person has braked, and then let up on the brakes as they turn (instinctive!) and thus lost control. You have to ABS brake all the way including while you turn to avoid the hazard, and beyond.

I don't know where the 'locked wheels is the quickest way to stop' comes from. Once you lock up, the rubber in contact with the road melts, so you're essentially braking on a layer of goo...?


Heel and toe makes so much more sense to me.

The reason the 'advanced' (road) driving schools don't advocate heel & toe is because they feel that your foot could slip off the brake while doing it, and you end up crashing. They advocate very conservative driving techniques (quite fervently :)!). Not the way I drive, but I can't argue that their way is less likely to result in an accident!

[martin_y]

This and then ill shut up.

Valleyforge, I was referring to this in your post :-)

I'm glad for any input- this has turned out to be a great thread, I think.

[Nevman]

It bad enough seeing foreign drivers coming into this country and thinking they can just drive around in this country on their licence. Yes 12 monthes and then pass a British test.

Yes mate, members of the european union CAN drive around in this country on their license as long as they like. Furthermore, (correct me if I'm wrong) but AFAIR, you can go to ANY european union country and pass your tests.
If you want to compare the levels of tuitions and examination of other countries, you should get some knowledge about it first.
In Poland for example (the one I know very well :D) the exams are much, much tougher to pass and one MUST complete the professional course to be allowed to do the exams. Not like here where mum or father (without professional knowledge and experience) can "teach" their kids driving.
Except driving on the wrong side of the road in this country, I've never had any issues, difficulties or accidents of any kind whilst driving here.