500bhp auto evo

[danwins224]

I have just been reading a magazine artical about an evo with the same autobox as us and has 500 bhp at the wheels! I was under the impression that we couldnt reach those sort of figures because of the g/box?

[bradc]

Someone talked about that recently saying the gears had been forged or something.

[Turbo_Steve]

Twas me, and indeed the internals had been swapped for forged. It's a chap on Lancer Register who owns the car, and another chap on there who can rebuild the INVECS II boxes.
I don't think it's particularly cheap, though.

As alway, it's not really the bhp that kills the gearbox, it's the torque, and how it's delivered, that will really do the damage.

[zentac]

yeah I was talking to him a while ago about it as the guy that did the gearbox rebuild and torque convertor upgrade lives in Barnsley.

[Madhav]

Great! This is really good to know it can be done as I was gonna look into it next week and ask a place if it could be done... at least now there is a reference point... half the cost would be labour though? Getting the box in and out is supposed to take a while? I guess custom forged internals can't be too cheap either...

[--hoff]

how about reability on the box?

I have seen a skyline with 500hp on a modified auto box and still the reability is suck big time.....the auto box keep falling all the time....

[Turbo_Steve]

I believe this has been proven to be fairly reliable.

Interestingly, the original failure at 500bhp was simply down to heat: the internals had gone blue and everything sort of melted a bit:: he'd not had a problem on the road, but tracking it had killed it (which it seems to be able to do on a relatively unmodified legnum!)

It appears that those who have simply turned up the boost have been able to kill their autobox, and that those who have fitted mission coolers do not have these problems.

The most significant mod for this 500bhp unit strikes me as being the uprated pump and cooler. The most crucial aspect (and most fragile) of INVECSII seems to be the fluid, and yet there seems to be little done to protect it.

[rees]

so... we could push the vr4's as long as we had plenty of cooling then ? yes ?

[zentac]

I think thats the general consensus with any mitsi tip box. Make sure you cool it well.

[Turbo_Steve]

As with all bleeding edge tuning, you can only do your best, and expect certain components to fail.


So you can spend a fortune building a bullet proof box, or spend a small amount adding better cooling, filtration and perhaps a better pump to the existing box and then hope you stay within it's new limits.

It's revealing that Mitsubishi kept 20bhp out of the facelift auto against the manual. It's even more revealing that those who have upped the boost (so 280-300bhp) and HAVE added cooling don't seem to have any problems.

Perhaps the best modification (if you're really going to see how far the box will last) would actually be a temperature gauge for the ATF? I wonder if Mitsubishi already have one in there, as it seems to know when it has overheated. (flashy N)

[rees]

good point , any electricitions/ ecu guru's to confirm this ?

[Kenneth]

I wonder if Mitsubishi already have one in there, as it seems to know when it has overheated. (flashy N)

I would have thought it more likely that they use a pressure sensor.
Increased temperature causes a drop in pressure.

From my understanding of automatic transmissions, fluid pressure is a crucial aspect which is likely to be monitored.

[chris g]

As I had been interested in the E7 GTA, I have tried to keep up to date with posts on MLR about upgraded GTA's

Evo's can manage increased BHP obviously because the engine tunes easily - they use Ecutek, ironically it was through RC Developments IIRC that engine and gearbox were sorted to work smoothly as a package

I must admit that I never read on MLR of an uprated/rebuilt gearbox so it would be interesting to see more details of this

We cannot get those figures anywhere as easily and Ecutek is not sorted for our car AFAIK

[Turbo_Steve]

500bhp on the 6a13tt is just as easy as it is on the 4G63T.....just costs more, as there are more components to uprate.


The ECU is "easy" to solve, as you simply fit a standalone, or piggyback, leaving the factory ECU in place to manage the gearbox ECU. From the sound of things, this is what was done to the GTA in question.

Agreed, no ECUTEK for our cars, and not likely to be IMO. However, reflashing via EvoScan has (rumour) been achieved in Russia....so we can all wait with baited breath for EvoScan or similar to support this properly.

Now we need someone who has a wrecked gearbox to have a look for sensors etc!

[chris g]

Re bigger hp, I think 'easy' equates to starting point (the engine), choice of components, cost and specialist tuners - we do not have it as easy as Evo owners, to choose what, where and how much

It easier for Evo owners to upgrade...

And as for the engine/gearbox, having had some trackday time in an upgraded Evo GTA, discussed things with the owner and read of the problems with the GTA gearbox/engine, it seeme that it was not that simple to use a standalone ECU or Ecutek - it took quite some time to get engine and gearbox working together smoothly

[zentac]

but hasnt bradc already done that with the autronic ecu and gearbox?

[chris g]

No idea - not followed is work with the Autronic

[bradc]

Nahh I've got a manual (now). Caveman however has an autronic and auto gearbox working smoothly.

As for upgrading a 6A13TT to 500hp, it isn't any harder or that much more expensive. All the stuff available off the shelf for an EVO to get you there is rediculously expensive, we just have to make it ourselves.

[Mark 4]

I've got a spare slushbox sitting in my shed awaiting strip down when the weather is a bit warmer. I'll happily look for anything you want but as I've not rebuilt an autobox before I really don't think I'd know what to look for. How many of you know about autos and could lend support on here ?

[peter thomson]

There is a temperature sensor in the gearbox where the solenoids are. I spotted it when looking at the valves and solenoids

[Turbo_Steve]

Standalone + Factory ECU in a "Frankenstein" arrangement is easy for any competent mapper to fit and get working.

Peter...that's brilliant....any idea how we can tap it!? LOL

[peter thomson]

Peter...that's brilliant....any idea how we can tap it!? LOL

Not yet but we should know which wire soon as the cover will be off my brothers box soon to check the solenoids.

[unwritten-dinasty]

I've heard that on auto's VR-4 depending on the piggyback installed there is some sort of "hit" on the transmission when it changes gear, is that correct?

A friend did Apexi AFC and then AFC NEO and had the problem mentioned above.

Im about to buy the Greddy Emanage Blue (cause Ultimate leaves CEL and i hate that) and im worried i might have this problem and cant afford to spend money on something that wont work 100% like its supposed to.

[peter thomson]

I have an apexi safc and haven't had any problems with it or the box.Neo may not work unless it has the latest firmware.

[Mark 4]

[QUOTEIm about to buy the Greddy Emanage Blue (cause Ultimate leaves CEL and i hate that) and im worried i might have this problem and cant afford to spend money on something that wont work 100% like its supposed to.[/QUOTE]

What is CEL ?

[peter thomson]

What is CEL ?

check engine light

[bradc]

Check Engine Light

[peter thomson]

Check Engine Light

:pimp2:

[Davezj]

There is a temperature sensor in the gearbox where the solenoids are. I spotted it when looking at the valves and solenoids

where exactly do you think this temp sonsor is as i have a auto box in the shed as a spare.

when you say valves and solenoids do you mean under the black metal cover bolted on what would have been the front of the auto box when it is on the car.
or somewhere else more accessable on the outside of the box.

[peter thomson]

where exactly do you think this temp sonsor is as i have a auto box in the shed as a spare.

when you say valves and solenoids do you mean under the black metal cover bolted on what would have been the front of the auto box when it is on the car.
or somewhere else more accessable on the outside of the box.

Yes it's under that cover and on the lower left side going by asa
It should be the on third last connector on the loom inside the cover

[Davezj]

well the wires for that must come out somewhere to the outside of the box.

i have a gauge connected up ready to use but no where to connect it i have a temp sensor i was going to mount in to a metal block with atf fluid running through it and install it befor the clooler in the Radiator.
i did try to use the temp signal line that runs from autobox ecu to engine ecu. but this did not work for me. so direct to a sosor would be better option for me.

[Turbo_Steve]

Check Engine Light.

Oh..am I late? :D :D :D :D


Chances are the feed from the TCU to ECU is simply a logical feed, i.e. it goes high when the gearbox is saying "I'm too hot" or "I'm too cold" to let the ECU know to do something different. For example, the TCU on Honda Accords has a temp line which goes high when the box is "up to temp". When it's low, the ECU retards the timing massively, making the car feel gutless. This always seems strange, as it means you have to rev it harder to get any power, which always seemed counter-intuitive to me, however, I assume revs heat the fluid up quickly, but torque does the damage?

[bradc]

Well you'd hope that those honda drivers would realise that the car is still warming....nevermind I'm talking about normal car owners, they wouldn't know sh1t if it hit them in the face

[Turbo_Steve]

But you HAVE to rev it to get it to actually drive at any kind of sensible speed! I come out of my house and straight onto a hill, and had to have my foot nearly flat to get up in when cold. Once the box was warmed up, if you tried that, you'd understeer into the kerb from all the wheelspin.

In the end, the 'problem' was 'fixed' by putting a switch on the control line connecting it to 5v. Job jobbed.

[peter thomson]

Pic of the F4A51 valve block with location of temp sensor but wire colours may not match. Valve block seems to be the same as ours and uses the same solenoids