ST-R auto gearbox issue

[confusis]

driving home from the meet today i was cruising through the karangahape gorge when i lost all drive.

now the car whirrs when in any auto mode but won't move. (whirrs in p, r, n, d, tiptronic). fluid was an inch up the dipstick when we checked, then topped up auto fluid with another litre of, no change in operation

what could be wrong? i dont think the gears are blown as it still whirrs in neutral and park, and i haven't even been thrashing the poor thing!

[elnevio]

Torque converter failure? I don't know enough about the auto internals to give you other suggestions. Hopefully someone like Brad might have an idea on the problem, and whether or not it is simple fix. :)

[confusis]

arg i just lost my job too... bad timing!

how many litres of atf does the auto hanging off my v6 take? if it just dumped itself through a blown seal while driving i'll need to buy enough to refill it once the seal's sorted..


if its the converter would that mean there would be metal fragments through the box as well? so will need converotr and a new box :/

any difference between st-r and vr4 autos?

[wintertidenz]

Hopefully you shouldn't have any metal through the transmission... sounds like your clutch packs are gone to me, but the experts on here will be able to tell you for sure what is wrong.

Trans will take about 12 litres of ATF, make sure that you get the MM-SPIII otherwise you will damage the box.

Brad will be able to answer if the trans are different between the VR-4 and the ST-R.

[bradc]

Thats no good at all, didn't you say something about it stuttering a bit at 50kmh when you were at my place?

If you've lost all drive then the torque converter splines might have gone. It is a very common problem on the UK V6 auto's which are only 2wd, but I'm not sure if the same problem applies with 4wd 4 speed auto's.

When you rev it slightly in drive, does the speedo go up at all? Asking because that will help determine where the fault is.

[bradc]

Yeah transmissions are completely different, VR-4's are 5 speed for a start.

Do a search around for torque converter splines, you'll see lots of UK V6 n/a guys have had the problem and how they've fixed it.

[confusis]

i've run it towards 3-4k rpm with no movement at all in both drive and reverse.

splines? how big a job? just need a new converter or is it part of the box?
it stuttered at 45-50 kph and then again around 70kph but that may be due to dirty fluid.

[bradc]

I have no idea, I've never looked into it! I think it sounds like that problem though.

[confusis]

the car's parked at a friends place (the tow car driver!) am i right in thinking the trans code is f4a42? just browsing for a new box :S

im guessing when the input shaft's gone it's a hard job replacing it, easier to replace the box?

[OnBoost!]

That sucks,seems like it was running ok when you followed me to brad's then suddenly it fails without warning...:o

[confusis]

my partner said she heard a slight whirring earlier in the day (she's on the trans side of the car so that makes sense) so guess it wasn't so sudden.

for those of you who have driven through the karangahape gorge you will know how unlucky we were to break down there (tight winding roads with little room to park on the side in emergencies. luckily we made it to a small bay on one side.

[bradc]

w4a42 = 4wd version

[OnBoost!]

Oh i see,yup i have been through there,really tight...lucky you managed to get a tow too.

[confusis]

the tow rope we used was a piece of garden rope left behind in the car by my dad.. working load 280kgs... didn't snap on the hour and a half tow. we doubled it up and the pack stated breaking strain is 6x working load.. so technically it could have handled 3360kg.

ok w4a42. thanks :) so i will need box and converter to repair this? will need to get my local mechanic to do the work as i don't have the experience and i cant get the car to auckland for you guys to help :(

[bradc]

You will need a torque converter and possibly the input shaft, I'm not 100% sure. You may need an entire gearbox as well, and in fact that might be the easiest thing to get.

[aboo]

Sounds like torque converter.

Thats what happend to my V6 sport just lost drive with out any warning.

I was over £500 for labour only. You have to drop the box.

Unlucky mate I feel for you. Its allways in the back of my mined with the Leggy.

[crazydriver81]

Confusis, the same happened to my gearbox. It's most likely that the torque converster has gone (at least it was the failure on my auto-box).

This means that the sprocket from the torque converter has been torn out of it. Means in the eand, you have to replace / refurb the torque converter. In Germany there is one company, offering the refurb of Mitsi gearboxes. So it cost me about 1000 EUR for the refurb instead of 1600 EUR for a new converter...

Maybe someone (VR4WGN or bradc) from your area has a spare auto-box. This is the best way to go IMO.

Stefan

[bradc]

I don't have one, but vr4wgn might have one.

[confusis]

easiest solution seems to be drop the old box and converter out and replace it with working items, not worrying about refurbing things.

would a rvr box work? same box code but i assume just need to change bellhousing over?

i understand the vr4 box is different, but would the converter be the same as the st-r?

[pbaron]

Happened to my ST-R, I got a replacement convertor from PickaPart for $19. It was a mission to remove the auto to remove the convertor but the price was right.

My auto was working fine right up until it just stopped driving. I purchased the auto and transfer case from the same donor legnum at PickaPart for an extra $235 to have as a spare, but as the condition of these items was unknown I decided to stay with my originals.

PickaPart in Mangere I think has a few legnums listed at the moment, if you are up that way.

[Subaru ETA]

yup sounds like the troque convertor splines..

what i would do is pull the box out first and look at the torque convertor -you will be able to see if it has ripped them apart...

i know that gorge very well (my family are from waihi) were you accelerating out of one of the many tight corners when it shat itself?

[confusis]

im in katikati and the nearest pickapart is in tauranga and doesnt have any v6 legnums/galants :(

[bradc]

Some parts are the same with other w4a42 gearboxes installed in other mitsi's, but the torque converter is a unique part to the 25ST-R and 25ST

[confusis]

don't have the tools to pull thge box off unfortunately.. wasn't even accelerating - was stuck behind other cars :(

[Subaru ETA]

you going to get it into a shop to get the work done?

[confusis]

as i said before - lost my job so im broke :(

[scott.mohekey]

Where are you based?

[bradc]

katikati which is kind of near Tauranga

[confusis]

yup. first i have to get the car finally towed back to my carport - its still stting at a friends place

[crazydriver81]

I've just checked ASA...

The torque converter is p/n MD761878 or MR983439 and these parts are compatible to any EA5W / EC5W cars with the V6 N/A engine. It is not important, if the auto-box was a tiptronic one or not ;) (at least ASA says so...)

Maybe this information helps to find a used part...

[confusis]

thanks :)

would it be possible to use the vr4 trans with the vr4 trans comnputer? or are they totally different? mmm 5 speed auto st-r. just asking as there are nil str boxes available on trademe/local wreckers and there are a few vr4 trans avail

[bradc]

I don't know if it will work. I do have both at my place though if you're willing to pay for them!

[confusis]

are the bellhousings transferable between boxes? still need a torque converter though. none on trademe :(

[crazydriver81]

Would be good to know if the VR4 auto-box will fit the ST-R. That would be one of the next mods to think of (especially in case of fuel economy and the 5 gears).

For sure you have to change the auto-box ecu and the instrument cluster, but I don't think that the bell housings will differ so much because the engine block is the same (6A13).
I have to check the p/n of the bell housings when I am home from work, before I can give you an answer on the transferability of the housings.

[bradc]

The casings are different, but the metal plate that resembles a gasket that sits between the gearbox and engine are the same for all 6a12 and 6a13 engined legnums. The gear ratios are as follows:

1st 2.842
2nd 1.529
3rd 1
4th 0.712
Final 4.042

1st3.789
2nd 2.057
3rd 1.421
4th 1
5th 0.731
Final 3.684

This translates into max speed in gear (at 6000rpm) of:

62.2
115.6
176.7
248.2


51.2
94.3
136.4
193.3
265.2

[crazydriver81]

Thanks Brad for the technical info.

This means that (assumed I put a VR4 box into my 25ST-R) the acceleration would not be as good as now, correct? But when driving on the motorway with a certain speed, the rpm's will be lower with the 5spd box. So the loss on acceleration will be leading into a mor economic fuel consumption. Hmmm...really a mod to think of.

Regarding the box housings, indeed they must be different, but the housing of the torque converter, which is connected to the engine block, shall be the same. Did I got you right? Have to check that with ASA... /pan

[bradc]

Acceleration would be better in 1st to 4th by quite a bit, a good 15% or so. However the additional gear also lets you cruise at lower rpm's.

Check ASA when you get home to confirm all the other similarities ;)

[crazydriver81]

errr... sh*t

I've checked that with ASA. Neither the bell housing nor the mounting brackets have the same number. The small pictures seem to be identically.

I am afraid only an eye-to-eye comparison can help here. Anyone who has a 4spd and a 5spd auto-box stored in his garage? /pan

[bradc]

I have a VR-4 auto gearbox, but my ST-R is a manual :D

[Ryan]

I am afraid only an eye-to-eye comparison can help here. Anyone who has a 4spd and a 5spd auto-box stored in his garage? /pan

Perhaps Confusis and Brad could both take a detailed picture of the part in question and then compare the two?

[confusis]

still have to get the car here and i dont have axle stands so can't get the box out at the moment. im sure someone else has a st-r box in their shed.


would the ecus/boxes have the same plugs? the vr4 box would have a stronger input shaft?

[Gly]

all 6A engines share the same basic block design,

so any 6a factory fitted transmission or gearbox will bolt onto any other 6a motor, (as long as the gearbox is on the same side on both cars)

its just a case of will it work and just plug in?

[bradc]

I guess the gearbox will fit in fine. The VR-4 gearbox ecu may or may not work with the n/a wiring loom and the transfer case may or may not fit in.

[confusis]

need pics of the box and ecu ends of the loom to judge that :S

has anyone had problems with the vr4 boxes?

ouch.. my local mechanic just quoted me NZ$1200 to change the cambelt. something about the waterpump and tensioners makes it cost so much

[Gly]

the vr4 suffers from the same, stripping of torque converter splines, and failing seals,

i paid $860 for my cambelt and water pump tensoners etc, inc labour, (25ST same motor as your STR)

1200$ is mitsi stealler prices.

[scott.mohekey]

I can get the lot of them for about $500.

[Subaru ETA]

need pics of the box and ecu ends of the loom to judge that :S

has anyone had problems with the vr4 boxes?

ouch.. my local mechanic just quoted me NZ$1200 to change the cambelt. something about the waterpump and tensioners makes it cost so much


if they are changing seals aswell that would be a fair price i guess

[confusis]

no seals afaik

[confusis]

I can get the lot of them for about $500.

shame you're in CC :(

[scott.mohekey]

You could get them for that price too.. go to www.partmaster.co.nz, sign up for the membership card and then go into your local store! This of course assumes you live near one, if not, I could buy the parts and ship them to you.

[confusis]

signed up... could take 4 weeks for the card!

[confusis]

have found a box and convertor for 850...will have to buy once i get the final payment for my old car. low on funds so how hard would this swap be to do mylelf?

[bradc]

Difficult, but not impossible. At least your gearbox is light enough to be carried by one person, and you don't have all of the turbo pipes in the way either.

[crazydriver81]

Brad is correct, it's not impossible to swap the gearbox. Is no one from our NZ guys in your area who can help you?

I will make some CAPS/ASA printouts, so you can see at least where the screws are (but have to get back home from work first :P). Hope that helps.

By the way, how much km's have the spare gearbox and the converter covered already? Just to judge if it's worth the 850 NZ$...

[bradc]

I'd pay $850 if it had a 1 year warranty on it, but if it is just a random second hand box from some car then I wouldn't buy it at that price.

[crazydriver81]

Here is a guide to remove the auto-box: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19502

[confusis]

87kms.. 3 months warranty.

dont have access to that page as not a payed member :/

any help would be nice though... im in katikati, near tauranga. buying box near end of month

[Subaru ETA]

bit far for us aucklanders to travel sorry!

[confusis]

oh poos!

[confusis]

I wonder...

Would it be cheaper (with auckland members approvals of course) for me to buy the box/converter, possibly the fluid (12litres right? read somewhere that the fwd box takes 8.1l) , then trailer my car up to auckland to a member's house for help swapping the box over? maybe bradc? Of course a couple boxes of beer (or other sufficient renumeration depending on whoever helps) would be in order.. My local mechanics charge a fortune. (eg cam belt change for $1200!!)


(ooh look at all the brackets)

[bradc]

I could probably drive down for a day with Dave or someone else and do it if you pay for petrol both ways and provide a lunch :) I'm keen. Anyone else?

[confusis]

sounds good - trailers are a PITA!
have to sort finances first though. and you'd have to bring axle stands and any specialised tools as all i have is a basic socket set and the car jack :P

subway for lunch? only fast food we have in town.. either that or cafes - my cooking isnt that great :P

what sort of gas bill are we talking? 340kms round trip..

[elnevio]

what sort of gas bill are we talking? 340kms round trip..
I think brad can get about 1000kms from a thimble-full of super, so a couple of dollars should cover it! :P


Seriously, this is what this club is about and is great to see! :)

I'm sure you'll all have a great day. :thumbsup:

[bradc]

Make it about $80 I guess :)

[crazydriver81]

Bargain! :d

[Subaru ETA]

the thing is that it would be ALOT easier to do it in auckland. how big is you garage space? do you have a compressor?

also i get dragged into work most weekends so it may be difficult to dedicate a whole weekend. if it was up here it would be easier to do it after work

[confusis]

no real garage.. no compressor :/ was going to be a driveway job. we're currently living in the garage!

[confusis]

So what would I need?

Gearbox
Torque Convertor
Fluid (12l?)
Any gaskets?

[bradc]

Yep!

shouldn't need any gaskets unless you are actually pulling boxes apart

[Subaru ETA]

torque converter seal, rear main seal

[confusis]

Is everyone still keen to help out? looking at 2-3 weeks to go till i get the box and convertor.

well good thing is if the box is fine and it's just the convertor i can sell the box off and regain some money :/

[bradc]

At your place or up here? I'm still keen to help :D

[confusis]

probably here as trailering is a bitch!

[confusis]

Big question: What's the chance of the box being OK? I reallly need to get the car running asap and torque convertor without box would be much cheaper..

Or would it be safer to get a replacement box too, and sell the old box off to regain some $?

As in if it's just the torque convertor i need it will be next weekend, if i need both it will be the weekend after :/

[bradc]

The problem is that just changing one will require the same amount of labour and fluids, and THAT would suck if we did that stuff and nothing came of it.

[confusis]

true. box and vertor it is :)

[confusis]

Well i have 8l of MMsp3 sitting in my room now. one thing down....

Unfortunately the wreckers close to me have no boxes anymore! ANy idea how much a convertor refurb and replacement input shaft would cost me?

[Subaru ETA]

give these guys a call -

http://www.finda.co.nz/business/listing/nxrq/a-automotive-services/

the are on the north shore in auckland but give them a call for a price. they have a seperate workshop where all they do is rebuild torque convertors. i have been in there and seen there work. also i am pretty sure they rebuilt ryans trans

[Ryan]

That's correct - they did indeed rebuild my trans. Ian Hunter is the name of the bloke I dealt with - quite a pleasant chap to talk to.