project 6a13 progress with pics

[Mante]

For all those that have yet to crack open the 6a13, here is alittle documentation of just what Im going through.

Day one, removal of all accesories (http://home.comcast.net/~hillbj/6a13.html)

Day two head removal (http://home.comcast.net/~hillbj/6a13day2.html)

Once everything is seperated they will make a trip to get Cryogenic Strengthing (http://www.ffwdconnection.com/) Oddly they recommend this process before Port n polish and before boreing. From there the head will go to Bj's cylinder head for stage 4 porting (http://www.bjscylinderhead.com/Cylinder%20Heads.php) Im amazed that they believe they can make a motor rev to 9500 rpm...wow sounds like a honda lol. The block should be able to go 30 over they have not told me exactly how much of an improvement in liters that will give me so until they do I wont commit to it. Im aiming for somewhere in the 2.9-3.2L range..safely that is

Now I found out that stock compression is 8.5, someone correct me if Im wrong but thats damn good?? I am still intrigued with the concept of swapping the mivec head onto the 6a13's block, can anyone steer me in a direction where I can purchase them from? I would really really hate to import a front clip of a fto just to get mivec heads.

today I removed the oilpan no thrill there so those pics will probrably be added after the crank is removed. All comments/questions/insights/words of wisdom welcomed

[zentac]

Nice numberplate.

[Kieran]

Interesting read. Cryo Strengthening....Mmmmmm..... :-b

[-LegnumVR4-]

I heard people get their underwear done, makes them last longer :-D

[pjjohnson]

This sounds interesting - whats 30 over mean ? Are you increase the stroke as well as the bore ?

I thought the compression at 8.5 was on the high side for a turbo.

[Mante]

This sounds interesting - whats 30 over mean ? Are you increase the stroke as well as the bore ?

I thought the compression at 8.5 was on the high side for a turbo.

I cant remember if it was 30 micro meter or if it were something else. The stroke wouldnt be changed, I have never seen or heard of a stroker kit for our block. 8.5 is high for a turbo?? Everywhere I have read mentions its hard to get to 8.1 damn near impossible for some makes. I guess the more I learn the better I'll feel.

[enigma]

30 over will be an over bore of 30/1000 of an inch or 0.762mm per cylinder

[Mante]

30 over will be an over bore of 30/1000 of an inch or 0.762mm per cylinder

cool thanks for clearing that up, now any chance you know what the difference would be in liters? going from 2.5L to __?

[pjjohnson]

Goes up by only 25cc if its .762 diameter increase per cylinder.

[Mante]

oh thats not even worth my time :( I guess I'll wait to see what they recommend

[Mante]

After a little conversation with someone at a machine shop, he came to the conclusion that going .35 over would take the 2.5L up to 3.1L. Where as going up to .40 over would settle somewhere around 3.2L. I was warned obviously that I would need custom pistons but that was going to happen anyway. Now Im just waiting on the price quote...details coming..

[pjjohnson]

Over 3000 cc would be great, but thats some re-bore.

With a bore of 81mm and a stroke of 80.8mm, using pie r squared x stroke x 6 I reckon that that would take a diameter increase from 81 mm to about 98mm. Could the block take it ?

[Nick Mann]

Okay, a few calculations comes up with the following:

81 bore and 80.8 stroke gives 2498.2cc total capacity.

Keeping the stroke the same and increasing the bore to:

81.762mm = 2545.4cc
82.524mm = 2593.1cc (If the 30 over is on the radius rather than the diameter.)
88.764mm = 3000.0cc.

Therfore, 3l needs 7.764 adding to the diameter of the bore, or almost 4mm on the radius.

I'm pretty sure these calculations are right.
Hope they help.

[Nick Mann]

Okay, thinking again,
7.62 added to the bore would give 2990.3cc.

Are they a factor of ten out on the overbore?

[pjjohnson]

Yeah, agree Nick, sorry, typo, not 98, but 89mm. Still taking quite a bit of metal away.

[Mante]

Nick, thanks for clearing that up in such a detailed manner that even I can comprehend! As pjj. mentioned that is an awful lot of material being removed from that sleeve, makes me wonder how reliable it would be. My main goal is to squeeze a noticable amount of displacement out of that 2.5L block. Dave as well as others have imprinted that phrase "no replacement for displacement" everywhere, I guess it finally sunk in lol.

[Nick Mann]

No probs. Couldn't have done it without pj's bore/stroke info. I didn't know that!

Hope you get the result you want with the engine - I am fascinated. Wish I had a few quid lying around to try it myself!

[nick-f1]

Sorry to hijack this thread guys, but Nick have you had anymore thought on your fujits...... whatever back box? Got some cash waiting........

Nick :-b

[Mante]

Sorry to hijack this thread guys, but Nick have you had anymore thought on your fujits...... whatever back box? Got some cash waiting........

Nick :-b

damn, I could have sworn that messages like that were the exact reason Pm's and emails were for

[nick-f1]

damn, I could have sworn that messages like that were the exact reason Pm's and emails were for

Gee aw shucks.............. I'd never have thought of that!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[SGHOM]

Any more pics Mante ??? As a few of us will be 'cracking open' a VR4 engine pretty soon !! :-b :-D

[Mante]

Any more pics Mante ??? As a few of us will be 'cracking open' a VR4 engine pretty soon !! :-b :-D

What other pictures would you like? I took a shot at getting thecrank pulley off but it laughed at my air tools :( That just means a quick trip to the shop tomorrow.

[matsondawson]

Using your pics I drew up where I think the bore would go (for 3L).
It looks like it gets a little thin in places, are you sure this is possible?
I'd personally love to do it.

http://www.giantfriend.com/pictures/moddis.jpg

[enigma]

OK, I found a UK Cryogenic specialist :D

Frozen Solid (http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/)

[pjjohnson]

Mante, any news on the re-bore. What did you decide to have done, has it made 3 litres ?

[zentac]

Just had a quick read through this, so can you Cryogenic Strengthen engine internals ? Rather than getting forged ones made up?

[Nick Mann]

I don't understand the cryogenics thing. It creates a denser molecular structure without changing the dimensions? That would mean the component is getting heavier. What is being added to do that?

The martensitic transformation in steel is a fair point, but this just needs very rapid cooling from a relatively high temerature. I will see if I can quantify the magnitude of possible strength gains, but I will need to do some research.

Working in a copper foundry, I know a bit about the copper side of things and the microstructure pictures are suitable fuzzy and without a scale, so they could be almost anything. "Note how the dislocations are closing up." To say I find that statement dubious is benig rather polite! The picture looks like it is from an optical microscope, and therefore you are looking at grains and grain boundaries, not dislocations.

Proceed with caution!

/Edit

Martensite is approx 4 times harder than pearlite. It is also very brittle. The process they are talking about for steel seems good, but some of the sentences are a bit misleading. The lattice distorts when it undergoes martensitic transformation, but all the atoms are still next to the same neighbouring atoms. To say that the structure becomes more dense but the overall dimensions do not change is contradictory. The strength does go up, but I am struggling to discover by how much at the moment.

The copper section is too vague to argue with!

[Mante]

Mante, any news on the re-bore. What did you decide to have done, has it made 3 litres ?

They currently have the block as we speak, I recieved a call stating they would have no problem doing the requested bore to the 2.5L block. They did however have worries about the creation of the pistons needed for the new 2.8-3.1L range, he said something about the width (this i figured) of the piston as well as the hieght would need to be increased. As they do there research that gives me time to continue to rebuild the rest of the car.


Just had a quick read through this, so can you Cryogenic Strengthen engine internals ? Rather than getting forged ones made up?

Its not about taking your stock components to get them treated, I would consider taking the forged components to be treated just for an added security. Im still up in the air about this cryogenic strengthing.


The process they are talking about for steel seems good, but some of the sentences are a bit misleading.

I agree with you totally, I have read and heard opinions of the process but one place in mind seems to give me the best understanding. This is pulled from them:

"What happens during deep cryogenic tempering?

During the process of deep cryogenic tempering austenite is transformed into martensite, which is then then tempered to change into tempered martensite. In addition, small complex carbides called eta carbides are precipitated out. This greatly reduces residual stress and promotes "micro-smoothing" of the surface."

Again it does not give an exact amount of improvement but in there defense it is almost impossible to say "with out process your part will be stronger by **%" without treating every single part known to man. The more I learn about it the more I'll post it, at this point my idea of having alot of components treated is on hold.

[Nick Mann]

They did however have worries about the creation of the pistons needed for the new 2.8-3.1L range, he said something about the width (this i figured) of the piston as well as the hieght would need to be increased.

That sounds interesting! It would make some sense. A bigger offset on the crank with a shorter con rod. It all depends upon clearance for the crank shaft I guess? Looking at the VX block, there is unused cylinder wall at the bottom of the cylinder, so the working height could get bigger. Looking forward to hearing more as you progress!

Back to Martensite, if you are having forged internals made, ask them what the structure will be. If they quench from high temp to room temp then you should be able to get a martensitic structure. (The temperatures and quench speed are dependent upon the exact alloy.) They may also be able to quantify the advantages, if any, that you will get.

Good luck!

[pjjohnson]

Mante, excuse me for putting it like this, but how big is it now ?

[craig-1]

Mante, excuse me for putting it like this, but how big is it now ?


imagine if you were to say that to a guy in a pub :grrr: :D

[richieelliott]

well guys i have just read the thread and are you talking english? im completly lost or is this a star trek thread?
It all sounds very complicated but the gist is that you are converting a 2.5 to a 3.0l? well if it works and i dont need a replicator let me know!

[Mante]

2996cc thats close enough to 3L for me :) Depending on the size of the pistons for the gto/3000gt I seriously doubt I can use those :(...Custom it is

Oh yea its still enough sleeve left for reliability

[Mante]

Last update for the night, its a rumor gto/3000gt owners use the montero's crankto get more displacement. Time will tell if its possible.

[FTOLTD]

just curious

What is the bore going to be once you have made it 2996cc?

Are you changing the stroke at all ?

Are you going to be putting liners in to the block ?

[matsondawson]

Last update for the night, its a rumor gto/3000gt owners use the montero's crankto get more displacement. Time will tell if its possible.

Any updates yet Mante? I'm really eager to find out what performance you get, and how you did it. Maybe some pics? Have the pistons/rods/crank been sorted?

[matsondawson]

Come on Mante, inquiring minds need to know!

[Mante]

Come on Mante, inquiring minds need to know!

Heads done, Groden titanium retainers, a Crower spring kit. With this Spring Kit, you get about 65lbs of spring pressure, which is safe (hopefully) to 8500 rpm. the flat surfaces were milled to make sure of flatness.

within the next two months the block will hopefully mate with the crank from either the gto(3.0L) or montero(3.5L) easy way of a stroker kit...

Oh yea my vr4 is finally one color...many thanks to triggermuave!!

[Wodjno]

So does this mean that if i put myself throught the process of Cryogenic Strengthing .. :inquisiti

That i will end up even more DENSE than i already am .. ?? /wall :stupid:

[I-S]

I know one of the guys behind Frozen Solid (he posts on my hifi forum), and I also know the guy at BOC who manages his account (who also posts on my hifi forum, and lives in my village).