At risk of a flaming

[steelie600]

Right, as im northern and as tight as a ducks arse. I refuse to pay the £60 odd quid for 5 litres of amsoil that opie are selling it for. Especially when i needed 20 litres of the stuff. Thats near on a weeks wages just in atf!!!

So i did some digging and it seems that there are 3 oils that are sp3 compliant.

Mitsubishi's own SP3
Amsoil severe duty synthetic atf
Castrol TQ95

Now as some of you may know im a parts supervisor at a volvo truck dealer (Was a master technician till i broke my back). So i set about seeing if volvo did an equivalent. After many phone calls to technical in sweden and exchanges of emails it was decided that we had an oil that matched my/our needs. It turns out that the Volvo fully synthetic atf is in actual fact Castrol TQ95 in a volvo tub.

I have ordered some of this oil and last night i changed my gear oil as mine was a bit brown and i was just starting to see some torque converter slippage. I followed the great guide on here for a full flush, and my gear oil is now a lovely cherry red. I did make somewhat of a mess tho LOL.

Initial thoughts on the oil are good, tc slip has now been eliminated and gear changes are smooth and positive. But i will do a thorough road test this weekend and report back what i find. IF this oil doesnt turn out to work properly ill get it out and get the amsoil in, but obviously if i can save me money and club members money this little experiment is worth its weight in gold.

Right everybody knows where im up to now and if this oil is good to go it is £149 retail for 20 litres or through me £120:hat:

[miller]

Well done, its always good to hear of other options. Im sure some of the more technically minded will ask the specs later!

Thats a good price!

Mike

[Klasman]

Sounds like a good deal :)

Would be awesome if it turns out to work well.

Btw whats the name of that oil at volvo? Is it just Volvo fully synthetic atf?

/Klasman

[steelie600]

Its at volvo trucks mate, this oil isnt available to car customers. Its called extreme duty synthetic atf

[bradc]

Did we figure out what ATF Volvo used in the V/S40 when we were talking about them a month or so ago?

[Turbo_Steve]

Nope....but as we've got a V40 (manual, though) I can make inquiries next time it goes in?

[Ryan]

I've used TQ95 in mine before and it ran fine for the year or so I had it in. When we performed the ATF change it was dark brown when it came out - this is with an aftermarket ATF cooler too I might add.

Some Amsoil ATF went in and has been in there just over a year or +/- 20 000km. I will be the first one to admit that I've questioned Amsoil's (the oil) claims about it being the best etc but the lab results from Kenneth's engine oil change really serve to enforce that their oil seems to do what it says on the box.

In short what I'm saying is that TQ95 is fine, just like SPIII but I think it just simply might not last as long as Amsoil :)

[elnevio]

In short what I'm saying is that TQ95 is fine, just like SPIII but I think it just simply might not last as long as Amsoil :)
This is what I also think we will see. /yes

But it will be interesting to see the long-term outcome.

BTW, the Amsoil ATF we use is their Universal ATF.


Just wondering though. Why do you need *twenty* litres? Are you partial to a tipple of it?! :runkest:

[amsoil]

I stand to be corrected here but i am not aware that TQ95 is SPII/III compliant, certainly didn't say that last time I looked nor did it say it was a synthetic (from which I make conclusions from the lack of such a statement.) I thought all the TQ range was mineral.
TQ95 was made just for the Aussie BTR manufactured autos which are nearly all Australian Fords. (+ a Mazza if I recall). So be careful.
The ATF in the Volvo cans is 3309 which isnt a Castrol spec (BP or Mobil?) and they just haven't licenced anyone else that I am aware of. 3309 defo wont be correct fo the Mitzi box as its made for the Aisen box , although Amsoil as used in the Vr4 will go in the Volvo.
Any new ATF will make the VR4 box work better if the old fluid is burned, It will not stay in grade very long and the ECU will struggle. The damage to the new fluid is indicative of the damage/wear that occurs to the clutches in the box.

But hey I sell Amsoil so take this with a pinch of salt but do your own checks.

[steelie600]

The oil in question is fully synthetic, and designed for the i-shift box on the 660 and 700 fh and is also the recommended tipple for the zf ecolife box. As to the exact oil im not 100% i maybe getting my maker mixed up as it was quite alengthy chat with a swedish fella with poor english, (my swedish is worse!!). when i get back into work ill post the data sheet, its in my works inbox and i cant access that at home. Dont get me wrong im in no way knocking amsoil, its the market leader in mitsi oil for good reason, its just i cant justify the best part of a weeks wages just to change my gearbox and ayc oil!!

As i have also stated i am going to thouroughly test this oil over maybe a couple of thousand miles or so and see how it stacks up, and if its not what im hoping it is going to be, ill change to amsoil, no question.

oh and to the person that asked why 20 litres, it only comes in 20 litre tubs

[amsoil]

Here is the link to the spec http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/5983_TQ_95_111805_2008_03.pdf the more I read it the more I thnk its a mineral oil and the wrong spec.

[steelie600]

one data sheet! i have another with this oils properties and its manufacturer on in my work inbox its the best i can do at home. Amsoil you are correct tq95 IS mineral i have mistaken that oil for the one im using. I assure you the one in my car is fully synthetic

[amsoil]

Guessing a little but I think this is 3309 by BP which is hydro cracked mineral which can legally be called 'synthetic'. It is for the Aisen auto box and not compatable although better than Dex3.

[steelie600]

Guessing a little but I think this is 3309 by BP which is hydro cracked mineral which can legally be called 'synthetic'. It is for the Aisen auto box and not compatable although better than Dex3.


Volvo trucks DO NOT use aisen or allinson boxes. they use ZF, Getrag, Eaton and there own I-Shift boxes. The oil in which you are referring is for Volvo CARS in the 5 speed auto Boxes. It is made by mobil and yes, it is hydro cracked mineral oil EXCEEDING dexron 3 specification. When i get into my inbox later today ill post the data sheet for the oil I AM using. IT IS NOT mobil 3309

[amsoil]

Volvo trucks DO NOT use aisen or allinson boxes. they use ZF, Getrag, Eaton and there own I-Shift boxes. The oil in which you are referring is for Volvo CARS in the 5 speed auto Boxes. It is made by mobil and yes, it is hydro cracked mineral oil EXCEEDING dexron 3 specification. When i get into my inbox later today ill post the data sheet for the oil I AM using. IT IS NOT mobil 3309

Thats down to me I was working on the car side which I know off the top of my head so to speak.

[steelie600]

no probs buddy, to be fair when i say i work for volvo no one ever says trucks they always say cars as no one even thinks of volvo trucks. Which is strange as Volvo trucks is possibly the worlds largest truck maker!! Merc and Scania are massive too.

My thoughts about using a truck oil is cos that is subject to lots higher forces and stresses than our cars could possibly subject it to.

I have now covered 500 miles with this oil in my box, gear changes are as sharp as ever, ultra smooth and draining a small sample out its still holding its colour no sign of discolouration at all. I have done about 100 round town miles about 300 motorway miles and 100 miles on twisty roads. i have used a variety of driving styles ranging from miss daisy to colin mcrae and all seems well at the minute. id also like to get some track miles in aswell to see how it copes. I will post up a final report soon and the data sheets are to follow later today

[andydckent]

I don't think posting a 'final report' soon is probably the right term. I would be very worried if the oil was already discoloured after only 500 miles anyway. Perhaps better to hold off and see what its doing at 3,000 miles or more. That said if you are indeed right it might well be a cheaper option in the short term at least. How it stands up over the long term compaired to the more expensive oil will be interesting too!

Haha there's me speaking as if I know anything about oil!! :P

Andy

[steelie600]

your right andy, perhaps a thorough road test report, would be the better term.

I normally only run the recommended fluids in my cars/bikes, but the cost of the sp3 spec is just too prohibitive in my eyes. Hence why im doing all this research and risking my car to test it. And if i can pass on positive results and info to the club then its kudos to me.

[WildCards]

What is the cost difference between Amsoil at £60/5ltrs and this other stuff (Was it Castol TQ95 or not?)

[steelie600]

£7 per litre retail comes in 20 litre tubs so 2 people could split cost

[Nutter_John]

£7 per litre retail comes in 20 litre tubs so 2 people could split cost

but 20 / 2 = 10 which is not enough to a flush , the box takes between 11 and 14 litres

so you have to buy £140 and end up with 8 litres left over , also does that £7 include vat ?

[steelie600]

you got a point john ill see if i would be able to split into 5 litre or 10 litres. but the split would be by me as volvo only supply in 20 litres or 208 litre barrels.

yes price is plus vat but as stated that is retail price, i will be able to discount cvr4 members and expect a price around £5.50 per litre plus vat.

[Nutter_John]

so to make it easy your looking at 15 litres (enough to do a flush and the AYC/Clutch pack ) for £105 + postage

[elnevio]

The longevity will be the crucial aspect, I feel.

[steelie600]

it would be in that ball park yes. As i have said tho im going to test this thoroughly in my car so you dont have to, and when im satisfied that all is well ill be able to supply cvr4 members with the oil. I could supply now if you so wanted but it would be at full retail due to us not yet stocking the oil. Not sure how id go about delivery yet but we have contracts with tnt and dhl or if you wanted to collect/ meet that could be arranged. But thats in a couple of weeks and i wont start thinking about that just yet.

[steelie600]

The longevity will be the crucial aspect, I feel.

absolutely, amsoil is the tried and tested. The volvo oil is as yet an unknown quantity.

[Turbo_Steve]

You will probably find that interest will be very cautious until you've got 10,000miles under your belt. Or more.

Generally the Mitsubishi fluid holds up okay for the first 10,000miles or so. Throw a couple of trackdays in, and it starts to look a bit rough at this point.

[steelie600]

i understand that steve and its not me making any money either. Im just trying to save us all some money.

[Turbo_Steve]

Absoloutely, and I think we all fully appreciate that. In fact, I might even have an order for a barrel in a few months time :)

[amsoil]

Unfortunately, and not really wishing to put the dampers (but it might) on this praiseworthy look at getting better value for money on ATF for club members, the following must be borne in mind.
As soon as the larger quantities are looked at ie barrels of whatever size, the price per litre falls away. This is simply because of economy of scale and that there is so much less packaging etc to be used. I looked into doing a similar thing with Amsoils ATF about a year ago; simple business really, The product is good(understatment!) its actually our top seller and we tuen over alot of it, I am aware that if the price could be made lower without cutting the margin other than in proportion then sales might be larger with higher turnover and higher profits. But then the Oil crisis jacked up all the prices. I didn't really want ot be sitting on lots of barrels of ATF (we were actually looking at 6 totes which are many times larger) if the prices were going to fall back down again andI bought when the prices where high. I have waited for a year for the fall to come but it hasn't, yes the price of oil fell away but the Multi Nationals have a strangle hold on the supply of base stock and have never lowered the price to the independants, a very unimpressive way of getting back market share and of dubious legality. But perhaps I digress. Bottom line is that 'repackaging' from barrels is less than straightforward. If you give the 'barrels' to an outside company to bottle, as most do, then you have a minimum order , in real terms you are looking at + £1 per 5L container to pour, Then you are looking at +£1 per container +£1 per card box. ie +£2.50 appx per 5L. Then you have the cost of transport both to and from the bottlers, call that 50P all + vat of course so appx £3.50. You must pay upfront and must expect 5% losses , you must have storage facilities and a system of supply. I forgot that you need to label the containers another +50p and cannot now call it Amsoil or whatever. You need product liability etc. so suddenly all the percieve advantages dwindle away to the point where you wonder if its worth the effort. Maybe it is but its a gamble and price stability is essential. Of course we could have a barrel and a pump on it and pump into a container to order, cheap and messy; do we really want ot be there as a UK and European Importer? Maybe not. So where to go from here and do we? ....... We are happy to sell barrels at £6.50 per L (208L ) for one and £6.25 per L on 2 and £6 on 3 or more (prices ex Heathrow bonded warehouse system and + vat) But does anyone really want things in this way? I don't know. Perhaps a club group buy? but someone will need to look after the matter and containers will be needed etc
Just my thoughts on paper ........

[elnevio]

:huh2:

Yours, waiting patiently!

[amsoil]

:huh2:

Yours, waiting patiently!

Yes sorry about that, business call and had to jump out but guess I hit the wrong button.

[Turbo_Steve]

So hang on....if we bought a Barrel as a club at around £1500 (inc VAT) and then pumped it out the messy way, assuming everyone is going to want 15L, that's a cost of £105 + postage to each member?

As a club, we're not in it for the profit, after all.
It means someone holding onto a large quantity of very valuable ATF, but surely that's a massive improvement on the £150+ it would normally cost?

[amsoil]

So hang on....if we bought a Barrel as a club at around £1500 (inc VAT) and then pumped it out the messy way, assuming everyone is going to want 15L, that's a cost of £105 + postage to each member?

As a club, we're not in it for the profit, after all.
It means someone holding onto a large quantity of very valuable ATF, but surely that's a massive improvement on the £150+ it would normally cost?

You've got it and just perhaps its a consideration? There are a couple of minor considerations re VAT for members who can claim VAT back but for most it could work.

[elnevio]

LOL - I will bring two of my finest 10L buckets. They'll be fiiine in the back...



Anyway, the serious point - this is where the longevity will come in to play and thus needing to assess the pence per mile price.

Of course, if you're not hanging on to your VR-4 for long, then the longevity/value equation isn't so important!

[amsoil]

Quite, thats why some new owners find there g/box full of brand new as cheap as you like Dex 3 ATF, which is really where I came in.

[steelie600]

Don thats a fantastic idea id be more than happy to chip in towards a barrel, but as you said the logistics could be a nightmare. And to be fair the oil off me, if indeed it does turn out to be a viable option, could also cause the same headaches. I now have the two data sheets as promised and there coming next post. But to be fair if Don can pull off the 208 litres of amsoil deal, and im sure he'd do a damn sight better job than me, i personally beleive that the Amsoil deal cannot be beaten.

[chris g]

Maybe some/one of our resident service staff, hello Nick, might be the recipient of the barrel, but it might not fit his available space, and then people would visit him to fill their boots so to speak...

[steelie600]

ok here we go its gonna get technical!!

manufacturer of both oils is Fuchs, this is the properties of the oil i have in at the minute.

Physical data Product type: Synthetic oil base
Productgroup/s: Transmission fluid
State at indoors temp: Soluble in water: Olöslig Soluble in organic solvents: Appearence and odour: Vätska. Appearance and odour: Liquid.
Magnitude Unit Value Min20% Max Shown 20%Total solvent content 20% VOC 20%?? Vapour pressure kPa 0 0 0.0001 Vapour pressure (temp) 20c
Storage Temperature C Viscosity ( SS - EN ISO 2431) S
Evaporation relative to BuAc BuAc=100 Evaporation relative to ether Ether=1 Gas density relative to air Air=1
Explosion limits % Element: Ca mass % Element: Mg mass %
Viscosity at 100 C mm2/s
Pour point C <-60 Element: P mass % Flash point C 253 253 253 Element: B mass % Element:
S mass % FZG fail load stage - Dynamic viscosity at (T= C) mPas(cP)
Density at 15 C kg/m3 841 841 841 Element: Zn mass %
Ignition point C Density kg/m3 Boiling point C
Solidifying point C Viscosity (40 C) mm2/s 55 55 55 pH (concentrate) pH (ready mixed) Solubility in water (temp) C Solubility in water (%) %

And if that means anything to anybody please let me know???:huh2: /confused

next we have the option oil in the attached document, these numbers dont mean anything to me tbh but im sure someone can decypher them

[WildCards]

manufacturer of both oils is Fuchs

So, would it be fair to guess these oils are one of Fuchs Titan ATF oil products?

And also, it appears that at worst the cost is half what Amsoil is currently retailing at on the Opie website, most likely it's even cheaper though.

[amsoil]

Having looked at the whole and considerable Fuchs range of ATFs there is only one that they recommend as a replacement for SPIII which is the Titan 4400. This is not a synthetic. The synthetic ATf looks like its aimed at the heavy plant and truck side and has thinner viscosity, not recommended for replacing SPIII and they arn't backwards at making their recomendations.
So IMHO it is looking as though it is not the correct fluid, still better than old or burnt fluid but not the correct one.
Still interesting; but if it only serves to give Club VR4 members another option in cheaper Amsoil ATF as per by the barrel tis still a very worth while thing.

[steelie600]

just out of interest Don, how does the Volvo oil stack up against amsoil in terms of viscosity, shear resistance etc. Is it a way off or is it close?

On another note 1200 miles now been to London village, Small place down south you might have heard of it. consistant 80-90 cruising. All is still well.