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View Full Version : Big Decision On Turbos To Make, Help



kinger
11-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Ok, ok so bigger turbo's will be a pain in the arse! But my other big decision is do i buy BRAND NEW turbo's or do i get mine re-conditioned for the same money???
The only difference is if i re-con them they have said they can up rate them (I dont know anything about them so dont know how)
or do i get shinny new ones running the same old power.
is it as easy a decision as it seems?
can i trust re-con???
What would you do??

Turbo_Steve
11-10-2009, 03:26 PM
I'd be very suspicious of "uprated" TD03s. It's been tried before a few times, and the results were usually that the turbos failed extremely early.

The specific case I have in mind is the shaft magically unbolting itself from the wheel. Whether or not this was down to a full appreciation of the rotational loads these turbos go through, or an inherent limitation of the design is still unknown.

The question really is going to be one of budget:- if you can afford to risk another set of failed turbos, then get some refurbs built with clipped turbine wheels. The spool point will move up the rev range, but you should be able to get more peak-flow out of them.

OF course, changing the turbos in this way really means you should be thinking in terms of a remap, exhaust system, inlet and most definitely a bigger intercooler.

So, I'd suggest you go for some second hand turbos for now, and get yourself an exhaust, ECU, intercooler, fuel pump and reg and potentially some injectors. When you've got this lot (and bear in mind you can easily spend £2000 getting here) then you should be looking at 350bhp or more. If that's not enough, then you could start looking at turbo solutions. Most people find that this is actually a reasonable amount of power in this car. Don't forget that the more you increase the power, the more the filters, belts and plugs and fluids wear: you will need to calculate the cost of decreasing your service interval.

Mr.Salas
11-10-2009, 04:18 PM
buy 2 WRX scubies turbo! ehhe

kinger
11-10-2009, 05:07 PM
I have an exhaust, with de-cat, was looking at air filters, but when i noticed the car smoking thought I'd better get that sorted first, was told the turbo's had, had it, could be re-built but told to go for new one's.
the garage have said with new turbo's (if he can find some) and labour the bill will be around £1800 so I really have to be sure what Im doing.
The car cost me £1800, new wheels £600, tappets, belts and service £850, plus the price of the tappets, exhaust £400, so do i call it a day or do i spend another £1800!! it's a real predicament!

Gowf
11-10-2009, 05:16 PM
£1800 just for turbo replacement? How much are they quoting you for parts on that?

Also, steve... The 350+bhp that your talking about it totally dependant on the specific car. Unfortunately not all cars can make that figure, some struggle around the 300mark, so it is totally unfair to say 'bolt this on and you'l get 350bhp'. Its just simply not true.

Thing is mate, calling it a day would be a shame. But as steve has said, uprated turbo's have caused issue's, but there's not been that many that have tried it. Personally id put recon turbo's on and be done with it. At least then you have peace of mind as you never know what your getting with 2nd hand stuff, you may only get 10k out of them.....

kinger
11-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Brand new turbo's are £547 each plus postage from Germany. to re-con mine is £512, each plus an additional £40 to up-rate them. my biggest problem is what car would I get? I love my Legnum, its not the cleanest and I'd like a nice new car but I'd miss the pull of the Legnum!

Gowf
11-10-2009, 05:57 PM
Have you looked at JA warehouse?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mitsubishi-Galant-VR4-6A13T-Turbocharger-TD03-7T-Turbo_W0QQitemZ370271957560QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C arsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5635edb238&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

kinger
11-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Thanks mate, looked at them, and messaged the guy, he only has one and doesn't know when he'll get another. Im going to talk to the garage tomorrow morning to decide what to do.

John TheAntique
11-10-2009, 06:26 PM
Is this the same garage that replaced the tappets, did they give you the old ones back?
You are only an hour from Eurospec I'd run it up to them before doing anything else. At least you'll know whereyou stasnd then.

Turbo_Steve
11-10-2009, 06:30 PM
I really really doubt that both have failed. I'd be tempted to go somewhere that was a lot cheaper and ask them to identify which turbo is causing the problem, and replace that with a second hand one. If they only last 10,000miles, that's 10,000miles to save up for new ones.

Gowf....fair comment: I was under the impression that power figure was relatively achievable with a good service and those mods.

kinger
11-10-2009, 06:34 PM
Yeah its the same garage and they did give me the old one's.
I don't have any problems with the garage, the guy knows his stuff, his own car is a massive BHP subaru, and he does a lot of imports.
I cant take the car anywhere as the turbo's are off.

kinger
11-10-2009, 06:38 PM
I cant remember what they said now but he did say bearings on both, think seals on one, and think casing on one but all old turbo's will have cracks.

bradc
11-10-2009, 07:02 PM
You could just buy second hand turbos from another member on here for next to nothing.

As for the power figures, those mods listed by Steve: exhaust, ECU, intercooler, fuel pump and reg, will get you to 350hp no problems.

kinger
11-10-2009, 07:05 PM
Yeah a member (Carl) did offer me turbos for a good price but if im keeping the car I need to know its going to be reliable.

apeman69
11-10-2009, 09:53 PM
kinger, please let me know the name of the German company where you can get new turbos for £547. PM me if you like.
If you're considering recon then I have a quote from a UK company that states they can recon our turbos for between £225 & £345 + VAT each (depends on state of your turbos) or they will sell exchange units for £345 + VAT + £10 carriage and they state they have recon exchange units in stock.
I am currently waiting for a response from 2 Japanese companies concerning availability of recon units, both of which are notably cheaper.
I know where you're coming from regarding the decision of new vs recon vs second hand and my turbos only have a problem holding boost at the top end!

BTW if your garage is quoting £1800 for a turbo swap including (£547 x 2 + postage from Germany) then this seems a lot of money for their labour charges. I'm sure that many members on here would undertake that job for less than £650, not to mention other garages.

So you could get 2 recon turbos for £800 + fitting. It's looking like this is the way I'll be going unless the German ones really are 'new'.
With reference to 'uprating' them I'd give that a miss if I were you.

Turbo_Steve
12-10-2009, 02:45 PM
If the old ones are already off, I'd be inclined to have a bash at fitting the replacements yourself!!!

Gowf
12-10-2009, 02:49 PM
You could just buy second hand turbos from another member on here for next to nothing.

As for the power figures, those mods listed by Steve: exhaust, ECU, intercooler, fuel pump and reg, will get you to 350hp no problems.


Maybe in New Zealand

orionn2o
12-10-2009, 02:59 PM
Yes but thats because theres a general higher oxygen content in the air in New Zealand..

Thats why all the stock cars run sub 14 second quarters!

kinger
12-10-2009, 03:00 PM
Well now im screwed! spoke to the garage this morning and the NEW turbo's from Germany are Wrong!!! sweet!
What now??
I see some people have but tdo4's on their cars, how? who does the custom manifolds? and how much?
What about the issue of space, its pretty tight under the bonnet.
You regulars on this forum must be sick to death of me! very sorry for all the stupid questions.
will open a new thread on custom manifolds.

elnevio
12-10-2009, 03:03 PM
will open a new thread on custom manifolds.
Keep it on here - you'll be fine! :thumbsup:

orionn2o
12-10-2009, 03:05 PM
Personally I wouldnt be spending 1800 quid on new turbos which basically get your car back to standard.

On a car that you only spent 1800 quid on, it seems a waste unless you're going to do something big with it. (In which case you may as well spend the money now and go bigger).

Why not find some from a car thats being broken for a couple of hundred and run with them for now.

Oh and i'm sure Gowf can source you a manufold and some advice on the TD04 route, since he has done it himself.

Gowf
12-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Right then so its custom manifolds is it?

If you look back at the thread i started years ago, you can see the pain that i went through to get them done.

The first problem you will have is finding someone to actually do them, as people are very reluctant to do them, and i found some people who took on the work and totally ****ed it up.

There are various companies out there that will do it, but i ended up getting mine done at Hayward and Scot. Now we managed to negate the VAT and they came in around the 1400 mark. But in all honesty that's not the biggest pain. On top of that you've got to buy turbos ( i opted for GTO ones as there were quite a few lying round to use as mock ups) but there is no point in putting 2nd hand ones on so your still in to the same probs you have. You then will need custom downpipes and you could get them to mate to your existing exhaust providing its 3". Then you will need all new custom oil and water lines for the turbos, new radiator fans(thinner ones) probably a twin feed fuel rail (just a bit safer), a decent FPR, bigger injectors, some form of ecu be it piggy back or standalone, an bigger intercooler, custom intake pipe work, custom air filter pipe work (you will have removed the maf by doing this) and your better relocating your battery.
Those are the basics, but you will find trouble with loads of bits and bobs, as everything is custom, but achievable.
The question you have to ask yourself is a simple one, how much can i afford to spend? If you ask how much do i want to spend, you'l find you will easily spend double that.
But that is the deciding factor. Ok, i have gone a little ott with some things as i dont intend to stop where i am, but to put things in perspective i personally believe to do this right (not that im saying mine is) you woulndt see much change from around 6-7k.

But then there are other ways round things that are cheaper if you are prepared to compromise. But unfortunately there is no way round it being bloody expensive.

I would offer you mine as the whole set up was for sale, but they are kinda earmarked for someone else

Gowf
12-10-2009, 03:28 PM
You have PM

Turbo_Steve
12-10-2009, 04:27 PM
Going back to standard, Gowf? :D (kidding!!!)

Gowf
12-10-2009, 05:39 PM
I wish, there's a lot to be said for stock power if you want a trouble free car. But where is the fun in that?

bradc
12-10-2009, 06:57 PM
I still beleive that it makes more sense to buy 2nd hand turbos unless you are after well over 350hp. The turbos on these are generally reliable and even if the replacement set go bad, you'll have quite sometime to get your original ones refurbished. I also maintain what I said before, if you need to ask this sort of question (and now questions), enlarged turbos aren't a good idea.

wintertidenz
12-10-2009, 09:44 PM
If you are still wanting to use a set of stock turbos and you can't find them for a good price over in the UK, you may have to buy a set from NZ and get them shipped over - not sure how much all up cost including shipping would be for them, but I suspect it would be well under what the garage has quoted you for new turbos.

From what I understand, replacing the TD03's with anything bigger is a HUGE venture on our cars especially with the space where the rear turbo sits - there is little enough space as it is without putting a larger turbo in, and I think there is some firewall modification involved to get them in. There is also the consideration of aftermarket ECU, etc etc as Gowf mentioned above.

You may not want to put in second hand turbos, but in the end if you get a good set of turbos then it will end up being the most cost effective route.

Turbo_Steve
12-10-2009, 09:56 PM
And if you fit them yourself two sets of used turbos is still cheaper than one set of refurbs! :D

If you put up a thread asking for help, someone mechanically sound is liable to offer to help you do this for an extremely reasonable price.

Gowf
12-10-2009, 11:26 PM
If you are still wanting to use a set of stock turbos and you can't find them for a good price over in the UK, you may have to buy a set from NZ and get them shipped over - not sure how much all up cost including shipping would be for them, but I suspect it would be well under what the garage has quoted you for new turbos.

From what I understand, replacing the TD03's with anything bigger is a HUGE venture on our cars especially with the space where the rear turbo sits - there is little enough space as it is without putting a larger turbo in, and I think there is some firewall modification involved to get them in. There is also the consideration of aftermarket ECU, etc etc as Gowf mentioned above.

You may not want to put in second hand turbos, but in the end if you get a good set of turbos then it will end up being the most cost effective route.

You'd be surprised how much room there is at the back. Infact its the front one thats the issue, mine are on with no bulkhead mod at all. The front however is has had to be modified a fair bit. So much so that the turbo nearly sits in the radiator.

wintertidenz
12-10-2009, 11:39 PM
I must be thinking of fitting TD05's then, I stand corrected :)

Turbo_Steve
13-10-2009, 09:51 AM
Even then, if you're getting manifolds made, I think there is probably enough space at the back.

If you're trying to use the factory manifolds (ala Valmes) then I could see it being a problem.

apeman69
13-10-2009, 06:40 PM
kinger, you have PM (and how about giving me some rep?) :deal2:

kinger
13-10-2009, 07:03 PM
How do i do that??

White Lightning
13-10-2009, 07:15 PM
How do i do that??

Click on the little button in Steve's post that says "Add to Turbo Steve's reputation" when you hover over it.

kinger
14-10-2009, 09:31 AM
Thanks mate, i figured it out.

Ryan
14-10-2009, 11:52 PM
Kinger: you may find this thread interesting

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6405