TD04 Bolt on Kit Designing and Manufacturing [Archive]

VR4WGN

28-11-2009, 08:10 PM

Guys its time.........:end:

this i hope wil be the last thread related to dreaded TD04 conversions..
Yes there is as we know it a HUGE amount of Interest Viewed into the TD04 Converisons but nothing "off the shelf" style kits made.

so im going to take aboard this project and complete it.
it wont take 2 weeks or 2 months but longer!!!!!!! /Grrr

i will have a shell and an engine that we will put in and out of the engine bay MANY times as we Trial Fit the new converison and test for space.:helmet:

Now the Most important part of this Thread is TO STAY ON TRACK PLEASE!!! No Hijacking or silly questions and replies please..this is soley for the production of the conversion kit ok... i will discuss with Committee on keeping this thread from SPAM,a si will be working off this thread and dont want to browse through the un important replies..:flamed:
sorry if it seems harsh,but you do understand i hope.

this will earn great Reputation for some of the club members im sure so all those who thrive on their rep will definatly have their opinions viewed then.

There is a few of you Wizards and Gurus here that have a wealth of knowledge in this field both Technically and personally and im calling upon all of you guys please!!:hat:

we wil need to tackle 1 base at a time i think,ie starting with the mounting of the Turbo's,etc and so on.

please may someone make "To Do" List and what we need aswell. as im bound to miss something.

it wouldave been awsum if all you guys lived close by so you could pop over regularly to discuss possible flaws and give hands on ideas aswell.

its not going to be easy at all but i think its well worth all the effort involved in it for the gains it will produce.

Again the people that play a huge role in this project will as usual earn themselves a spot in the Que for the first lot of production and a discount (TBD)*

so lets lay the TD04 dilema to rest by making it happen finally..../Camera

bradc

28-11-2009, 08:37 PM

First of all, you need to TRY to make it so that you do not have to replace the radiator and it's fans. You also have to make it so that nothing else gets in the way or has to be modified in anyway.

The kit should come with:

turbos

manifolds

downpipes finishing so as to bolt up to the position of the stock cat. Primarily because many people will already have decat's and exhaust systems

all gaskets needed for the exhaust

a pipe that replaces the stock piping out of the turbos up to where the stock Y pipe finishes and where the black rubber pipe joins onto

Intake pipe that goes from the stock position of the maf down to the intakes of the turbos that works with both auto's and manuals

Any fittings if needed for the oil and water feeds to and from the turbos

mpau009

28-11-2009, 10:26 PM

Second what brad says, the less things you have to remove/replace the better.

Here is Allbeitmines setup from back in the day, but that required extensive cutting etc.. http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137

My list of boxes to tick would be:

1) Suits a turbo/turbos that are easy and cheap to find
2) Can be fitted by anyone with tools, without having to drop the gearbox or anything to service.
3) Wastegates plumbed back etc / legal
4) Avoids any heat issues / ceramic coating etc that will bump up the costs.

Things i can think you would want to include:

- Manifolds
- Turbos
- External Wastegates
- Oil and Water Lines

I have been putting some thought into this ever since i committed to a single turbo :P

I think it would be great to have a kit that can be used in stages if possible, for example, one that you could fit the turbos, plug into factory intercooler, bolt up to the cat and run, then have the other parts down the line as add ons,, intercooler kit and pipework to Throttlebody,, Upgraded Throttlebody and rebored plenum,, fuel rail, FPR and Injector upgrade etc,, radiator and fans,, lightweight flywheel & HD clutch,, battery relocation & cold air intake (i have a .dxf template for one that you could use as a base),, Loom adaptor and base map for a link ecu or a reflash,, and on and on and on..

I know mods all need to be supported, and you really need to do the works to get the best results, but if you could compartmentalise it so that different options worked together or on a factory setup, i think it would make a lot more sense from a business standpoint, eg, i might be doing my own thing, but be keen for a fueling upgrade kit and so on. Plus you would be able to price the bolt on turbo kit closer to what people with these 5-10$k value cars might want to spend.

10/10 for giving it a go Q, i guess you are better placed than most of us to pull it off.

mattnz

28-11-2009, 11:00 PM

Perhaps if you were to make a kit to bolt on WRX turbos, it would allow some uprated WRX kits (room permitting) to bolt on as well?

bradc

28-11-2009, 11:26 PM

I didn't think about wastegates, the kit should be designed to use the stock internal wastegates on the turbos.

Choosing the turbos which is what Matt is talking about is a good point too. You can try for Subaru turbos and in turn if you design everything around the stock TD04's people will have some ability to upgrade and choose their turbos from any Subaru turbo designed for that same car.

The other option would be the GSR or GTO TD04's, there is a big base for the TD04's over in the USA.

VR4WGN

29-11-2009, 12:14 AM

must say iv been told ages ago to consider the Subaru Turbos,so tha tis a good starting point,ill need some details on types etc..

personally id love it if you guys where able to do the research,deciding and then throw me the drawings and ill put it into productionand say yy or nay on fitment or other possible issues.

im a hands on guy,not a paperwork or pc junky lol,so its hard for someone with limitd skills in this field to do the research and then still try make it happen..

oil and waterlines are not an issue and i feel can be left for last as theres flexi hoses available so that wont be a problem surely,

i think the primary focus now is looking for suitable paired turbos or whatever.
then lasercut some manifold bolt up plates and then position and mount the turbo temporarily and then build the mani pipework to suit,then head to stage 2??

bradc

29-11-2009, 01:49 AM

Simply look for Subaru TD04 turbos.

VR4WGN

30-11-2009, 09:42 AM

i think i got a TD04L in the garage...

Gowf

30-11-2009, 02:46 PM

Subaru will be easier for a cheaper quick fix. If you go GTO you will have a nightmare, i can assure you. The main problem your going to have is that it is all well and good being able to produce them, but will people buy them? The reason i say this, and not to downcry your efforts, is that it will turn out as expensive no matter how you do it.

With regards to the fans, i really dont think your going to be able to keep them, and you will undoutedly have issues with the front engine mount, oil filter housing or the a/c pump.

This is just going from my own personal experience, for as some of you know it ended up taking a year to get the gto tubs on. admittedly the subaru will be easier due to their flanges, but you'l see what i mean when you start mocking things up.

My original idea had the sale of kits in mind when i was working at Eurospec, but due to the pain and cost of what was involved, it just seemed a pointless excercise due to the market for them.

Like i say, go for it and it would be an amazing thing if you managed to produce a cost effective kit, but just be aware that there are a lot of obstacles in your road.

VR4WGN

30-11-2009, 05:56 PM

definatly man ,thank you for the info,i am aware,never the less if the cost is too high for people they must not really want it then! either way i will have TD04's on mine then lol..
~Q~

djb160

07-12-2009, 07:04 AM

If it can be done at the same time perhaps one pair of manifolds for internally gated turbo and another pair for those that want externals. Just a thought.

djb160

07-12-2009, 07:11 AM

for those that just want an internal wastegate setup wouldn't it be more cost effective to simply make up an adapter plate for the turbo instead of complete manifolds? Someone has already done it but I can't remember who or what turbos (Might have been an OZVR4 member).

bradc

07-12-2009, 07:25 AM

There won't be enough room to mount a spacer unless you make one that is basically just a flange and then it won't have very good flow characteristics

VR4WGN

07-12-2009, 11:38 AM

tharts true Brad.. BTW i have a TD04L turbo,

Nutter_John

08-12-2009, 06:24 PM

rather than make a manifold why not look at getting a new housing cast for the hotside of a td04 bolting to the stock manifolds

Gowf

08-12-2009, 06:48 PM

The cost of casting would be far greater than that of making a manifold. Unless you are going to have a large quantity made its just not worth it, Esp as you would still have post casting machining to finish the job off.

Nutter_John

08-12-2009, 06:54 PM

Depends where yu get it done , try China for example

Turbo_Steve

08-12-2009, 07:52 PM

It's a nice idea, John, but you really would need a few to make it worth tooling up.
China will be cheaper, but you're still looking at >500 units before it's cost effective, and thats without th costs of the CNCing

VR4WGN

17-12-2009, 06:45 AM

um my Dad was a toolmaker and pattern maker so he could do it,i just met a guy who owns a Casting Shop aswell who said he would do all the Manifolds and e Newly designed Plenium aswell ,so its just down to drawings and ideas guys.. hit me with all the info and we can look into it

WildCards

17-12-2009, 08:40 AM

The Saab 9-5 Aero uses the Mitsubishi TD04HL turbo with a four bolt flange, not sure if that's any use.

Also, the new BMW x35i twin turbo engines use the Mitsubishi TD03-10T I believe, this may open up an avenue for easy upgrades aswell.

Turbo_Steve

17-12-2009, 09:30 AM

I was under the impression that the BMW versions are "somewhat integrated" into the manifolds.

And why would we want TD03s, anyway? TD04s are definitely, DEFINITELY the way forward. Unless you want TD05s.

WildCards

17-12-2009, 11:49 AM

And why would we want TD03s, anyway?

You wouldn't, but the BMW x35i engine is sold in the US, so there is a fair chance interesting stuff will be developed, and 'maybe' some of that could be easily or easier to adapt to use in a VR4 no?

Gowf

17-12-2009, 12:17 PM

Turbo_Steve

17-12-2009, 01:52 PM

Gowf

17-12-2009, 01:58 PM

What, with your GTO setup? Naarfink :D

I'm with Gowf: as far as I am aware subaru turbos on factory manifolds seems to be the way forward...why would you want to make it more complicated?
It sounds like Valmes got them in without bulkhead mods, or even doing much to the radiator. The issue then is just oil and water lines, inlet pipework and downpipes.

There were minor mods to the bulhead from what i remember talking to him about it, which is why i was shocked when i saw how much room there is at the back using the GTO ones, but then i did have custom manifolds.

Ive just got to say what i have time and time over. It never seems like much, oil/water lines/ downpipes etc, but it all adds up and youve got to see if it is a viable commercial project, there is no point in doing it unless people are going to pay the money.

Here's an idea, how about a pole, crude and by no way a true representation of peoples opinions when it comes down to it, as to how much people would be prepared to pay for TD04 conversion kit (so fitting/ecu/mapping/fueling all not included)?

Just to put it in perspective, this free ps pump conversion that ive been doing has so far cost me about£120 due to pipework and electronic bits and bobs.... Its amazing what the little bits cost.

Turbo_Steve

17-12-2009, 03:03 PM

Absoloutely: I say "only" in terms of fabricating, rather than cost!!!

Wasn't Valmes running TD05s? They're a fair bit bigger!

Gowf

17-12-2009, 03:08 PM

he ran TD04 HL's first though before the td05's

WildCards

17-12-2009, 03:59 PM

Are the BMW's not sequential turbos? I was also under the impression that the hot side was an integral part of the manifold, so i wouldnt say they were a goer at all.

Its been said time and time again...... Just use the subaru turbos, it will save you a lot of hassle. But then what would i know?

I haven't a clue mate, I'm simply repeating what i've heard elsewhere so possibly someone with more technical brain matter can put the info to some use. At least it can be considered and binned instead of found out afterwards.

Ryan

17-12-2009, 06:54 PM

Are the BMW's not sequential turbos? I was also under the impression that the hot side was an integral part of the manifold, so i wouldnt say they were a goer at all.

Its been said time and time again...... Just use the subaru turbos, it will save you a lot of hassle. But then what would i know?

Here is a picture of the manifolds for the BMW engine:

uploaded/50107/1261072374.jpg

In situ:

uploaded/50107/1261072399.jpg

uploaded/50107/1261072446.jpg

Turbo_Steve

18-12-2009, 01:21 AM

Oh-h that's beautiful! Nice find Ryan!

And yeup, thems are two teeny turbos fused to the manifolds, running in paralell (not sequential) and, interestingly, with the biggest actuators in the world: they're nearly as big as the compressor housing!

The other interesting spot is the device next to the spark plug in the cylinder top....at first I thought it was cylinder-direct injection, but I can't see the fuel rail...looks more like a pyrometer?

scott.mohekey

18-12-2009, 01:24 AM

The fuel rail might be the black thing above it, no? It's sectioned so you wouldn't see the rest of the near end.

Turbo_Steve

18-12-2009, 01:26 AM

The only black bit I can see above it looks like an electrical connector to me?
The long black ribbed bit is connected to some inlet pipework, so it's ain't fuel in there :D

I want to play with it now :(

Ryan

18-12-2009, 01:30 AM

I would really like to have a go driving one /yes

Gowf

18-12-2009, 12:32 PM

A friend of mine has a '58 335. They are quite quick, i had a play with it in a standard vr4, and i must say they are a good bit quicker. Lovely to drive, as most bmw's are, but its just a bit false.... it just takes lot of feel away from the driver.

He also has had injector issues already. A common fault aparently, but the service he recieved from BMW was apauling.

Sorry, this is a total thread hijack. Needless to say, those turbos are a definate no go and would be damn expensive

VR4WGN

06-01-2010, 06:47 PM

ok well heres the 2 turbos guys
iv slowly got the kit together and am still busy trying.
i want to make up a stand that houses the engine and can rotate a full axis so i can work comfy on this project.
i plan to try mount the turbos on the engine 1st by trying any means possible to get it to sit as close to the engine tucked away as possible.

im thinking tho that the oil filter outfeed will need to be relocated to an AM System wich is not hard at all.

my next concern is the flexi downpipes,i may haveto weld a stay to keep this at its most maximum down height while i trial fit the turbos,knowing the downpipes may need changing tho,this will just assist me in the fabrication of the project

any ideas and comments are welcome
~Q~

Turbo_Steve

06-01-2010, 06:58 PM

VR4WGN

06-01-2010, 07:24 PM

really so i canrotate the inlets ? i thort theyd be fixed, but these aare the correct turbos you guys where talking about correct?

ok ill get them mounted onto the engine as it sits then and then worry bout the rest like you said?
~Q~

Turbo_Steve

06-01-2010, 07:53 PM

If you've got the time and the cars, that'd be my approach. It may not go back in with the turbos on.....but it may slip in with no issues at all: It's got to be worth a try, if it saves you having to make up manifolds.

And yes, if you unbolt the strap on the turbos you can "clock" them inside the turbine housing. You can also clock the compressor housing against the bearing, though I believe you then have to replace the seals.

Those are the right turbos, however they are available with 90 degree inlets and straight inlets. Given how stupendously huge those 90 degreen inlets are, I suspect the straight inlet (which is much rarer) will be the choice for the VR4. However, other TD04 compressors and cartridge sections should mate up with those turbine housings.

You could, of course, simply cut the 90 degree inlet off and tig on a bit if ally pipe.

Gly

06-01-2010, 07:57 PM

no the ones used have the straight inlet...

the one person who used the ones you have, cut off the bend to fit a straight,

the straight ones are not rare. i have 2, and found plenty to pick from when i was buying.

are you still on ozvr4 heres my td04 project,
hasn't gone any further due to lack of funding...

http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4960

.

VR4WGN

06-01-2010, 08:25 PM

lol Carsten reserve them post positions lol... um yea there is 2 on Trademe at the mo,not yours i take it.. but if these will work then why not use them? unless you reckon its best to get the str8 ones ..

Steve- im sure we remain confident we will not have any problems ey? lol

Gly

06-01-2010, 08:32 PM

not mine still plan on doing the conversion at some stage...

depends how good your cast alloy welding skills are??
working with the bends as is would create some interesting pipe work

straight ones would be easier to work with,

VR4WGN

06-01-2010, 08:39 PM

itll be easier once iv done it i guess,then youll know what to do then

Turbo_Steve

07-01-2010, 09:26 AM

90 deg inlet on the rear one woudn't be a problem as far as I can see: would actually make the pipework simpler?

The front one would be a pain with that Rad pipe in the way...however the factory pipework pretty much comes straight out into a 90degree bend anyway?

Just a thought.

And I did say rareR not rare. There are plenty of straight entry ones around (used on UK models from 1998 - 2000) however the 90degree entry ones are even more prolific, at least in the UK.

Gowf

07-01-2010, 10:53 AM

Q: I'd get them onto the standard manifolds, no messing just drill the extra hole end get them mounted and see how they sit against the engine. Then I'd get said engine into the car and see what it looks like in terms of space. That is likely to make most of your decisions for you!

Also, bear in mind that those turbos you have are available with both 90degree and straight inlets: you can clock the inlet round on a 90degree, which may make custom inlet piping easier...or harder!

The issue you may have is that if mounted to the stock manifolds in the way you've suggested there will be clearance issues with the block, something you cant just bodge out of the way.

TD05's are bigger, but they do clear oddly enough. Just a heads up. So the best solution would be to have more than just a mock engine, youd need to replecate everything in the engine bay also in terms of dimensional clearance.

Turbo_Steve

07-01-2010, 01:24 PM

You're the expert here!

If TD05s DO fit and TD04s don't presumably we're talking less than 3cm difference....so for example longer studs and a steel spacer block on the manifold?

I've offered a TD04 up in mine, and it's EXTREMELY close.....

Gowf

08-01-2010, 05:40 AM

I couldnt tell you the exact clearances, as ive not measured them, but obviously the td05's dont clear the bulkhead, neither do the td04's for that matter, so a wee bit of mod is required (a hammer would do for the 04's nbut cutting for the 05's i think).

Yeah they are close, but you will have issues unless like everyone else who has used stock manifolds use a spacer plate.

VR4WGN

08-01-2010, 07:24 AM

hmm interesting,just the kind of discussion i was waiting for...

firther more Gowf i will be keeping a front cut from a legnum and keeping it all attached and setting it up to drop and play with the motor etc so it will be a quick test for space and fitment etc.

but definalty keep the discussions going guys,any problems are going to be good to hear and air out and sort solutions then i hope...

taupodrifta

30-01-2010, 01:31 AM

have you got any further with these Q

Louis

30-01-2010, 01:39 AM

I thought that valmes had fitted his tdo4's straight onto the orig manifolds, then went to tdo5's, I'm sure he didn't use a spacer on the TD04's

VR4WGN

30-01-2010, 07:15 PM

buzy setting up factory so no ,not yet,i have just about evrything i need to proceed but time......

timmae2009

29-03-2010, 04:40 AM

Updates ???

kochajj

02-05-2010, 07:49 PM

its my td04 upgrade... no flange, ori oil/water line... no oil relokation kit...:)

http://images43.fotosik.pl/289/1dc71764e3c61439med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images36.fotosik.pl/176/b828dd9de568b59cmed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images42.fotosik.pl/202/abf681136f3c7063med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images42.fotosik.pl/202/76fd6dd488b15880med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images50.fotosik.pl/290/ea4692b2bfeb83cbmed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

[img=http://images42.fotosik.pl/202/76fd6dd488b15880m.jpg] (http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/76fd6dd488b15880.html)

bradc

02-05-2010, 07:57 PM

That looks very good as usual :)

Louis

02-05-2010, 10:10 PM

That's looking good, well done, It looks like you have managed to get it ot fit without having to cut the front engine roll stopper engine mount??, and you have also managed it without having to relocate the oil filter??, it would be good if you have, cheers :)

Gly

02-05-2010, 11:16 PM

got pics of the rear turbo fitment??

Gly

02-05-2010, 11:17 PM

also which car is that tdo4 off? and which variation is it?

phosty

03-05-2010, 08:45 AM

Looks like more than the work of a dremel hand tool:

http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/bb4a2a414817704d.html

Very nice!

kochajj

03-05-2010, 08:54 AM

rear turbo is not finisch. turbo is from subaru (td04l-13t)...

http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/pelny/39d09a263db594f9.html
http://www.fotosik.pl/pokaz_obrazek/pelny/f9dbe9b235abbb0b.html

dinger1983

03-05-2010, 10:31 AM

to get that milled is not gona be anywere near as expensive at custom manifolds of even custom pipe work id the standard stuff fits back on

in fact i may have to get some spare manifolds and my mate spare turbo and ask one of the mettal bashers in the work to mock it up wile im still in the raf and have access to them cos this looks like the way forward

Turbo_Steve

03-05-2010, 05:51 PM

It looks great, and if it works it's a real win!

My only word of caution would be around EGTs removing that much metal from the manifolds - they're big for a reason! No sure what it's going to look like inside after the milling, but a hot spot is going to result in cracking.

That said - they're cast so will take a LOT of heat.

Thank you for sharing - VERY interesting stuff.

Any plans to sell it as a kit?

swinks

04-05-2010, 01:58 PM

Steve, flange thickness is to carry on mechanical stress. Kochajj did additional "bridge mount" to engine block (not visible on photos). So flange should be ok.

After some conversation with Tomek (kochajj) over the phone it seems that following work was involved:
- change alignment of exhaust manifolds by modifying flange angles (block and turbo side)
- manufacturing short exhaust pipe between turbo and downpipe.
No other modification: oil filter, oil lines, water lines, air inlets, heat shelds, etc., hardpipes.
Almost p&p.

dinger1983

04-05-2010, 02:15 PM

you can see some sort of flange on this pic

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4940/ea4692b2bfeb83cbmed1.jpg

Gowf

04-05-2010, 03:47 PM

Thats all really quite impressive. Does the front turbo clear the fans? Are you putting thinner ones in whislt retaining the aircon?

A word of warning though, welding cast does have to be done by someone who knows what they are doing, as it will crack at a later date with heat due to the differences in thermal expansion.

swinks

04-05-2010, 04:23 PM

I'm gonna speak on kochajj behalf...:d (have spent hour tpday on phone :whistle: )

Welding manifolds were discussed on Polish forum. Conclusion was same as yours Gareth, so initial plan was scrapped. Apparently Tomek (kochajj) tried different angles of manifold and got it right by change of flange angles.
And yes front turbo clears fans and radiator. Well seems to be really almost plug and play.
Rear turbo also will clear firewall (no hammering involved anymore) and all pipes will fit without issue. Also top hardpipes from turbos to FMIC stays same (samco couplers only).

I asked Tomek for mo detailed picture of setting up all set in guide style.
And because all settings for milled machine will be saved in friendly local manufactureur, IMHO we soon may consider CVR4 group buy/order etc. (further plans) :sunny:

Gowf

04-05-2010, 05:05 PM

Fair play, I am impressed. When i was originaly doing it, there was talk of adapting the stock manifolds by removing flanges and welding etc, just wasnt keen as the tubular is the way.

This certainly does make things cheaper though, and opens up a huge amount more options for people

Louis

04-05-2010, 07:23 PM

Well done excellent work, will pipework clear the front rollstopper engine mount, and does it all clear the oil filter to block pipe?.

swinks

04-05-2010, 07:34 PM

Well done excellent work, will pipework clear the front rollstopper engine mount, and does it all clear the oil filter to block pipe?.
yes /yes

dinger1983

04-05-2010, 07:43 PM

has he finished the rear tub is there anypics of it very keen to see

kochajj

04-05-2010, 07:53 PM

rear turbo is almost finish... :)

Louis

04-05-2010, 08:00 PM

yes /yes

Man, that is excellent, that is a great step forward and makes the bigger turbos a much more viable option, have loads of rep, that is amazing work. most impressed with your work, :)

dinger1983

04-05-2010, 08:10 PM

quality looking forward to seeing your great work

have you modified the fuel rail and changed the injectors and is it a auto or manual

just watch now every spare set of manifolds and scooby tubs in the uk are gona be snaped up

kochajj

04-05-2010, 08:34 PM

injectors are from evo (560cc)... its auto...

Louis

04-05-2010, 11:32 PM

injectors are from evo (560cc)... its auto...

re your injectors, have you had any problems with low impedance / high impedance of the injectors??.

Legnum VR4 = high impedance.
EVO = low impedance.

do your evo 560 ones work ok?, as I thought they would burn out cuircuts on the ecu?

kochajj

05-05-2010, 05:19 AM

re your injectors, have you had any problems with low impedance / high impedance of the injectors??.

Legnum VR4 = high impedance.
EVO = low impedance.

do your evo 560 ones work ok?, as I thought they would burn out cuircuts on the ecu?

:upsidedow ... http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=24271

Adam.Findlay

05-05-2010, 06:53 AM

that is a very cheap and easy alternative to the impedance problem. where did you install these resistors? right at the injector itself or did you trace back the loom and install them on the ecu end to hide the ugly resistors??

Gowf

05-05-2010, 12:33 PM

Turbo_Steve

05-05-2010, 01:06 PM

Gowf

05-05-2010, 01:11 PM

Indeed - Resistor packs need to have some decent power handling, and ideally some airflow as they can get fairly warm!!!

Serious Kudos for lateral thinking and making it work!

Wish machine shops in the UK weren't so expensive.

Technically they're not if you know the right people in the right places! Im getting all my custom hubs billet machined for free, just means ive got to take a trip to edinburgh to get the job done.

dinger1983

05-05-2010, 01:16 PM

Indeed - Resistor packs need to have some decent power handling, and ideally some airflow as they can get fairly warm!!!

Serious Kudos for lateral thinking and making it work!

Wish machine shops in the UK weren't so expensive.
leaving the raf at the wrong bloody time losing the workshop and now this comes along and i will lose the metalbasher and all there wonderful toys gutted and there very cheap few slabs of stella and some choclate biscuits there happy as larry

Turbo_Steve

05-05-2010, 02:45 PM

Technically they're not if you know the right people in the right places!

Masonic Tuning Parts dot com?

kochajj

05-05-2010, 08:14 PM

Yes they are a cheap solution, that i have tried. Lasted around 3months. The power capability of the resitors is too low, they burn out pretty quickly. Get yourself some 50W ones from RS, a far better solution.

like this??? : http://www.tme.eu/pl/katalog/rezystory-50w_100297/#id_category%3D100297%26

Gowf

05-05-2010, 08:56 PM

Yep they're the ones. Im sure they were 10 Ohm, but id have to check.

Gowf

05-05-2010, 08:57 PM

Masonic Tuning Parts dot com?

You have no idea how close to the mark you are!

Turbo_Steve

05-05-2010, 09:29 PM

If it's the Rotary club and not a Mazda - there will be trouble!

scientist

06-05-2010, 01:39 AM

You can just search ebay or used parts places like dsmpartout etc for 3KGT, Skyline or Supra OEM Resister packs

kochajj

09-05-2010, 06:42 PM

rear turbo :

http://images40.fotosik.pl/288/50db96a83f739337med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images41.fotosik.pl/288/e399010c4546227fmed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images37.fotosik.pl/287/32a66bd1b4dc6e86med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images36.fotosik.pl/179/6c9570cac49ff5bemed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images48.fotosik.pl/292/29e20741e6272e86med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

dinger1983

09-05-2010, 07:26 PM

looks great did you make a plate for between the manifold and block
have you got any pics of the work dune to the manifold

kochajj

09-05-2010, 07:44 PM

looks great did you make a plate for between the manifold and block

its no plate :)

dinger1983

09-05-2010, 08:22 PM

cool so just the milled manifold

kochajj

12-06-2010, 06:54 PM

td04 conversion is DONE:
http://images36.fotosik.pl/190/d1dd2fc3ad3a8007med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images45.fotosik.pl/304/aa4b411f79ac41f0med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images47.fotosik.pl/303/ed0d5dba69220c1amed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images37.fotosik.pl/298/701a095937ac3a2emed.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

http://images35.fotosik.pl/158/d8bf125c0ed80394med.jpg (http://www.fotosik.pl)

Nick Mann

12-06-2010, 11:01 PM

So now we need power graphs! :D

Wodjno

12-06-2010, 11:21 PM

That looks nice /yes

Power /yes

Louis

13-06-2010, 06:54 PM

Excellent work well done, will you be making and selling manifolds??, look forward to graphs, well done.

timmae2009

29-07-2010, 07:33 AM

Anything more here?

Turbo_Steve

29-07-2010, 04:38 PM

I'm interested too - especially in ECU choice and mapping - the MAF must be reading all sorts of things with that setup!

swinks

29-07-2010, 10:03 PM

It's running now!

I spoke to Kochajj on Tuesday. His Leggy is running like a dream. He haven't done dyno yet because IIRC he is planning very soon to fit wet methanol injection, and dyno is to be done after all together tuned.

So far his setup is: Greddy Emanage Ultimate, TD04's off Scubby, Evo6 injectors plus capacitors pack, MAF off Evo 6 instead of stock one, 2x separate engine and tranny oil coolers.

So far he's running on afr's 12:1 on full load and egt seems very good 750C to 800C on manifolds.

It's just brief from our last chat.

Louis

29-07-2010, 11:51 PM

Excellent, looking forward to more info, well done, keep up the good work

Ghost_2008

30-07-2010, 09:37 AM

That looks stunning..... very nice work.......

VR4Kaos

30-07-2010, 02:52 PM

very impressive good work !!!

Uray25

30-07-2010, 08:33 PM

Impressive, indeed...

Very interested in the new PowerOutput...

scientist

30-07-2010, 09:08 PM

Why the e-manage though and not flashing the ecu?

Turbo_Steve

30-07-2010, 09:16 PM

Cos when he started, I would imagine the ECU hadn't been flashed.

foxdie

03-08-2010, 03:45 PM

Come on!

http://trackmygps.co.uk/images/misc/legrub.gif

Any news? :D

swinks

03-08-2010, 09:23 PM

Why the e-manage though and not flashing the ecu?

Because it gives him more flexibility and control over several different factors, like timing, boost, air flow, afr, egr, etc. With flashable ecu 7202 you have no such flexibility.

swinks

03-08-2010, 09:26 PM

Come on!

http://trackmygps.co.uk/images/misc/legrub.gif

Any news? :D

After my visit to PL, I'll bring more pics /Camera and do some brief description. Kochajj is not fluent in English, so that what holds him back of writting here big story :D

Turbo_Steve

03-08-2010, 11:04 PM

Because it gives him more flexibility and control over several different factors, like timing, boost, air flow, afr, egr, etc. With flashable ecu 7202 you have no such flexibility.

Er.....is that just because nobody knows where the maps are yet?

After all - all that stuff is in there in the ECU waiting to be changed.....

swinks

04-08-2010, 08:45 AM

EMU is easier way...:curtain: And has switchable maps. :tiny:

Gowf

04-08-2010, 01:18 PM

Its also live mappable which saves a lot of hassle, however Im not a fan of the EMU, but then lots of others are. As a piggyback though it does what it says on the tin... Considerably less than a standalone, but you do lose controlability ( I managed to get another 50bhp out of mine with a standalone compared to a piggyback)

Wodjno

04-08-2010, 01:28 PM

( I managed to get another 50bhp out of mine with a standalone compared to a piggyback)

But not an EMU /Hmmm

Gowf

04-08-2010, 01:36 PM

True it wasnt, my point wasnt that you'd miraculously generate 50bhp just by changing to a standalone, it was that it clearly shows the restrictive nature of a piggy back and that while they may be good at what they do, they are a far cry from the controlability you get from a standalone.

scientist

04-08-2010, 03:17 PM

Turbo_Steve

04-08-2010, 06:06 PM

You could have probly gained that 50bhp if the person behind the e-manage was a better tuner.

At the end of they day they are all tunes...the Standalone didn't net you the 50bhp....the experience of the tuner did

I can't agree with that - the best piggyback ECU in the world is still relying on seeing the signal from the factory ECU, combining it with sensors that it's also reading and then choosing it's output. There is also the level of sheer granularity that a standalone will offer over a cheaper piggyback. Then there is the fact that in Gowf example he had probably the UK's foremost MAP2 engineer setting up the standalone. And was one of the very first people in the UK to have a Vipec in a VR4 - and mapped by the same guy.

Undoubtably the EMU is the best piggyback of the bunch - it's virtually a standalone anyway.

Even then, I don't recall seeing wideband target mapping - closed loop knock control (outside of what the factory ECU offers) and it certainly doesn't offer any kind of learning of Open Loop maps based on the closed loop behaviour (i.e. self learning knock trims, long term and short term octane trims, adaptive timing, etc etc etc).

There is also the issue of timing - any piggyback will inherently react slower as it has to wait to see what the factory ECU is doing (digital signal to PWM,) then read it (PWM back into digital) interpret it, react to it, and output it (digital back to PWM).
How much impact that has in the real world is pretty limited, I'll admit: we're talking maybe a few msec.

But when you're talking about reacting to an ignition signal, msec count.

The REAL question is whether it's worth paying double (or more) the price of the EMU for the somewhat marginal benefits a standalone. With an EMU, I doubt there would be as much as 50bhp in it: probably closer to 15bhp.

What I've not had the chance to do is try both in a back-to-back comparison on the same car: My experiences have been that piggybacks sometimes struggle a bit with the open loop / closed loop transition (usually manifests itself as a slight hesitance when gradually depressing the accelerator). But then that wasn't an EMU: I've set up PowerFC ECUS as standalones in a Frankenstein combo - i.e. it piggybacks the factory ECU, but replaces it's control of the injectors, ignition, boost solenoid and potentially the fans and purge solenoids etc.

Gowf

05-08-2010, 08:20 AM

I'm down with you on this one steve.

To put it quite simply this is how it went. When mine was mapped, it wasnt mapped in a fashion that you would for some customer who comes off the street saying (I would like more power please), it was done in a way of, hmmmmmmmm i wonder how much this will produce, and so if it went bang it went bang, i was fully prepared for that, and to be honest didnt really care as all it would have done was speed up the forged build.

Anyway so that being said, we didnt push it beyond the realms of knock, as you can not with the stock ecu in there due to its over sensitivity to it. So..... AFR's of 11.5 @1.4bar on the piggy back produced knock and we were unable to achieve the magical 400.... 390 was the best it produced.

However once the standalone was in there, the knock is configurable, and so the level of sensitivity is lowered to when det actualy occurs (moniterd on det cans), this provided with a greater controlability of the timing map allowed for a further 50bhp, and 50lbft (which was limited earlier in the rev range as i was scared of breaking a rod) to be released.

So im not sure how the experience of the mapper is going to aid in reducing the stock ecu's over sensitivity to knock?

Anyway, moral of the story is, they are just so much better in every way. The main advantage you will notice is in the cold start maps, where the piggybacks just epicly fail.... mine was a dog until it warmed up, pretty much undrivable. Now (or at least when it was on the road) its perfect. Just goes to show you get what you pay for.

bradc

05-08-2010, 08:37 AM

Mine is perfect when cold or warm. The only thing it does is stutter sometimes at low load around 1500rpm, the trick it to put the clutch in, then hit the throttle harder, or just don't go down to 1500rpm :)

Turbo_Steve

05-08-2010, 09:28 AM

?? Brad, yours is a Standalone, though, isn't it?

AlanDITD

05-08-2010, 09:38 AM

Also steve you forgot to take into account factory sensors...for me a true standalone is EMU and Loom....this includes replacing all sensors with correct tolerances, brand new.

I would guess a few cars on piggybacks are unable to make more power due to poor reporting on sensor front.

bradc

05-08-2010, 10:22 AM

Yes, Autronic SM4. The stock ecu is in Aussie :)

AlanDITD

05-08-2010, 10:36 AM

there any graphs anywhere for your car brad?

bradc

05-08-2010, 10:58 AM

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29911&highlight=227.9kw

Gowf

05-08-2010, 03:37 PM

This was my point Brad, that with the standalone the car is far more drivable than with a piggyback.

Turbo_Steve

05-08-2010, 04:53 PM

at low load around 1500rpm - stutters

Actually this is a good example of something that would be an utter pain on most piggybacks (again, possibly excepting the EMU which is a little different) and dead easy to fix on a Standalone - you're on a MAP sensor, and probably needs it's compensation table altering a little. Alternatively, you could opt to run a MAF (e.g. from a NISSAN) instead of the Factory one and allow the SM4 to calculate low-end load from this.

Can't recall if the SM4 allows dual source extrapolation - but if it was a Motec M800 it would, allowing you the best of both worlds :D I'm pretty sure the ViPec allows this too.

bradc

05-08-2010, 07:52 PM

I will mention it to Ralliart when my car is next in there.

kochajj

16-08-2010, 05:29 PM

i have question... what is max boost for stock internal whit TD04

bradc

16-08-2010, 08:06 PM

A few people have been running around 500hp on stock internals with no big problems, I would probably go for that and leave it there.

kochajj

17-08-2010, 11:48 AM

500hp with what psi??? 20????

ILYA

17-08-2010, 11:50 AM

No, it was 24 psi )))

kochajj

17-08-2010, 02:56 PM

No, it was 24 psi )))

whit stock internals and TD04???:shocked:

ILYA

18-08-2010, 06:51 AM

No, with stock internals and GT35R :thumbsup: ;)

ILYA

18-08-2010, 06:55 AM

Our Moscow clubmates have been achieved 456hp on stock internals with using of water-methanol injection kit. It was maximum 415-417hp on 2xTD04th without the methanol.

Colin Wiltshire

24-08-2010, 06:05 PM

No, with stock internals and GT35R :thumbsup: ;)
was that a single turbo conversion or twin tubs?

scientist

24-08-2010, 07:30 PM

My guess would be SINGLE

ILYA

25-08-2010, 07:16 PM

your guess is wright ))

scientist

25-08-2010, 08:04 PM

Soon will be starting a single with FP 3794R HTA turbo and Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors

Nick Mann

25-08-2010, 09:43 PM

1000cc injectors? Feck me!

Oh - hang on - 4 cylinder? That's not as extreme as I initially thought. Still large though!!

scientist

25-08-2010, 10:38 PM

1000cc injectors? Feck me!

Oh - hang on - 4 cylinder? That's not as extreme as I initially thought. Still large though!!
No this is for a 2001 Galant VR4. We're just wrapping up the manual conversion

the car in question
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30388

Nick Mann

26-08-2010, 11:54 AM

Gowf

26-08-2010, 06:15 PM

Our Moscow clubmates have been achieved 456hp on stock internals with using of water-methanol injection kit. It was maximum 415-417hp on 2xTD04th without the methanol.

Yeah i had 450 on stock internals and 109RON @20psi, and it was a perfectly reliable car. made 400 on road fuel before knocking was an issue

scientist

27-08-2010, 03:34 AM

Okay. In which case, FECK ME!!

Surely that's enough injector for over 1000bhp? Assuming you have the pumps etc to supply enough fuel to them... I think you'd need twin Walbros for that, or something else mad!

What power output are you aiming for?

It will be fed by a single walboro 255 HP intank. we ultimately plan to crack 600whp (By then the 255 might be feeding an inline Bosch 044).

I'm working out Getting pistons and rods done by CP and talking over getting some cams done.

1000s are supposed to be good enough for about 8-900hp max at their ragged edge...so they should be pretty happy with a car running at the kind of power we're after. I always like overshooting it on the injectors so they aren't worked as hard.

On my car i plan to attempt for 600s (After i swap turbo, current one too small for those goals without running close to 40psi boost)...i currently have 890s but plan to move over to 1500s soon

Uray25

25-09-2010, 08:26 PM

Any News ?!

foxdie

18-01-2012, 06:05 PM

Bump! Anyone wanna take over this? :)

Adam.Findlay

19-01-2012, 12:01 AM

http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.php?11597-EOI-Turbo-Upgrade-Manifolds-T25-T28/page3

some people who dont f**k around and accually desgin something unlike Q however the price is a bit steep

foxdie

19-01-2012, 10:16 AM

See I thought about designing my own using buttweld pipework and some laser cut flanges, but the solution came across as quite unrefined.

It's my ambition to get a decent set designed to fit Scooby TD04's (or better) like Gowf had / Steve-VR-4ish now owns, that allows you to keep aircon, then get those built in bulk for a group buy.

swinks

19-01-2012, 11:12 AM

Scoobys are -13T Jason. :)

foxdie

19-01-2012, 11:14 AM

Made my previous post a little less specific to appease the vultures ;)

Adam.Findlay

20-01-2012, 12:12 AM

yeah if you so need i have the lazer cutter files for the head-manifold flanges.
few of us here in christchurch have made manifolds with butt weld pipe (steam pipe) all turned out pretty well

jjayokocha

20-01-2012, 12:39 AM

I use the TD04 from the scoobies on our Starlet turbos, they are a fantastic upgrade. We went from 0.7bar on std turbo producing 130bhp to 212bhp @1.0bar on tdo4 on stock internals aswell. I have also seen boys produce an adpapter plate that mounts onto the bottom of the std mani to allow the td04 on but it does drop the downpipe & exhaust a touch.

Fully

20-01-2012, 08:18 AM

yeah if you so need i have the lazer cutter files for the head-manifold flanges.
few of us here in christchurch have made manifolds with butt weld pipe (steam pipe) all turned out pretty well

Got pictures?
I would pay $1500 for a set, seems a lot easier than doing it yourself =)

Adam.Findlay

20-01-2012, 08:20 AM

pictures of the lazer cut flanges or pictures of carls steam pipe manifolds?

foxdie

20-01-2012, 10:12 AM

I think (hope) he means $1500 for the flanges and steam pipe assembled and ready to go, $1500 for 2 pieces of metal is daylight robbery!

And yes, photos of the whole lot please :thumbsup:

Humpty's Revenge

20-01-2012, 06:52 PM

Steve-VR-4ish now owns, that allows you to keep aircon, then get those built in bulk for a group buy.

Right chaps I don't know if this has been bought up or not?

You cannot keep aircon because there is no room to keep both radiator & AC rad, also if there is no AC pump then you either need to replace it with just a pulley or do away with it altogether.

Which intern will effect your power steering belt.

There could be another issue or 2 but I cant remember what Gowf (Gareth) has told me.