Gearbox/Torque Convertor Vibration

[JoGoVR4]

Hey Guys i need some help here - it would be muchly appreciated.

I have a massive vibration form G Box/TC at between 55 and 80 mph. The whole car shakes. Far worse tha wheel balance/prop balance. Fluid levels are correct.

If you back off, the vibrations goes, so it is only under load that it happens.

Any ideas?

Does anyone know a good autobox fixer in Kent???

Thanks

[peter thomson]

Do you know what oil is in the gearbox as the wrong spec can cause similar issues

[Louis]

search for driveshaft vibration, some members have had issues with inner front CV joints


try this one

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21251&highlight=driveshaft+vibration

[JoGoVR4]

I have always topped up with the correct fluid from Mitsubishi...having said that - i had it serviced 6 months ago. I have only just had this severity of shaking in the last week. I'll check and see what they used but i am sure they would have used the genuine fluid...
We have checked CV joints and they appear to be ok....
Thanks guys.

[Nick Mann]

Sounds suspiciously like your inner CV joints to me too.

[JoGoVR4]

OK Thanks.

We'll have another look at the before we strip the box out. Thanks for the help....It's just such a violant vibration i can't believe it's coming from the CV's

[bradc]

You say correct oil, but what have they actually used? Dexron III or SPIII?

[JoGoVR4]

Hi Brad, I'm prretty sure it was SPIII.... having said that, i wasn't the last person to fill it up..... so i am going to check first thing Monday. If i had the wrong fluid how quickly would i notice it?

[bradc]

With the wrong oil in the gearbox you can have vibrations coming from the car at lower speeds in the higher gears. I'm not sure if this is the case here though because it is happening at higher speeds and it sounds more violent than that. But obviously it is worth checking

[gallvr4]

it could be the center prop shaft vibrating...center bush worn maby???.i had a similar problem as your describing...!!!

just my taughts...

[JoGoVR4]

Yes, I'll check it out, thanks. It happens in any gear and is the same frequency so the drive shaft theory stacks up quite well as well.

Thanks

[JoGoVR4]

We've done a check of the drive shafts on the car from underneath (up on ramp) and can't feel any play in the joints.... i still think this may have something to do with the torque convertor - the vibration/shudder is violant the whole car shakes to such an extent you HAVE to back off....whilst you can feel it through the steering wheel it is no worse there than anywhere else...engine mounts and prop shaft all good...
It is an auto box - not sure if i made that clear.... thanks guys

[Nick Mann]

I have never known a TC on a VR4 to fail like that. The two normal causes of shudder are:

* Gearbox - this will appear as a drivetrain shudder in 4th or 5th at light to medium throttle. Backing off will solve the issue, but so will hard acceleration. Normally occurs at 30-40 mph.
* Inner CV joints - this will appear as a vibration through the whole car, potentially more violent than the gearbox shudder. It will be progressively worse the harder you accelerate and will happen further up the rev range. Accelerating hard from 40-60mph should show this up, whereas the same conditions with the gearbox shudder won't.

It may end up being a red herring, but potentially just swapping the inner CV joints from one side to the other may help if that is the issue. And it's not a huge job - the green outers tap of the gearbox/transfer box lay shafts and the bearings inside stay on the inner end of the drive shaft. The only other thing to do is release the rubber boot from the green outer.

I'm not saying your car must have one of these faults, I'm just saying that these faults are relatively common and I'm not aware of any other common fault.

[JoGoVR4]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for that.... the more i think about it the more convinced i am it will be the inner CV joints.... a couple of questions:-
Is it possible to check the CV joints in position or do you have to disassemble and inspect - i am getting conflicting opinions from people?
In the manual - it talks about a TJ (CV) joint service kit which seems to come with the bearings etc - do you know if they are available still? I'm going to call camskill on this one in a jiffy too...a new drive shaft is around £450!!

[JoGoVR4]

Has anyone got any used front driveshafts off a 1996 VR4 Auto Leggy? It's an EC5W 00062.. chassis number. Cash waiting...

[Nick Mann]

You can just buy the inner joint, but from memory it is nearly as much as the full driveshaft. If you find a good deal on them let us know! :D

[JoGoVR4]

OK Thanks - When you say us... who is us?

[Nick Mann]

The club. I'd like to know as I have swapped a few over for people now. But everyone looks a bit suprised when they hear the Mitsy driveshaft price and then has a second hand one fitted. I'm sure there are others that would like to know too.

[JoGoVR4]

Yeah, they are very expensive....i reckon it's worth the chance of a second hand one. Does this seem to be a common issue?

[JoGoVR4]

Guys!!!
Excellant news. Problem solved.
It was the bearings on the inner CV joint. Not possible to detect with shafts in place.
A very big thank you to everyone who helped on this one and to Nas for the shafts.
Thanks

[lateshow]

I have 2000 automatic vr4. had the same problem all this time since i got the wreck from japan. It has lowering springs and is quite low. It shudders when accelerating from 30-50kph, particularly in third or fourth gear. Has anyone here had the exact same. Is shudders now a bit also when accelerating 80-100 kph, no so badly, you can hardly sense that.

I've swapped the cups from one side to another. No effect, only I think (Im not sure) that it got a bit worse. Here is the pic of the worse cup:

Worse cup (http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/vetonivelet/HPIM8428.JPG)

The right side engine mount was crippled, and I changed that, no effect. The front one looks like this. Should it be in this kind of position?


Front engine mount (http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/vetonivelet/18042010211.jpg)

Otherwise it doesn't shift that good, no special problems but every other vr-4 i've driven feels tons better. Last summer I changed the ATF twice and no effect. I live in Finland so there's no heat problems with transmission. One legnum had a broken input speed sensor that ruined the shifts. So they don't feel utterly bad but sometimes ite feels like it is shifting on the wrong moment and the whole engine + transmission takes a little "hit". I'm thinking of borrowing some else's sensor first to see if that helps.

[Mark 4]

Well I'm no expert but they look pretty badly worn based upon my recent experiences.

[Mark 4]

I mean the CV cups, not the roll stopper.

[JoGoVR4]

Hi Lateshow. I have to say that on my Leggy it was very hard to diacnose the problem. You can feel the wear in the coupling once it is out of the car - difficult to see in pictures. If you can get hold of second hand shafyts and coupling it is by far the cheapest and easiest.

The guys on the forum here gave good advice for me and was better than so called experts....

I have to say that my autobox has never been the smoothest and jolts as you put into drive or revers and sometimes the shifts are not smooth.

You probably know this but you should never use the Tiptronic to down change to slow the car down as the tranny fluid aireiates and gets too hot - you then get even worse changes.

Not sure this will help but i hope it does...

Good luck

Jo Go

[elnevio]

You probably know this but you should never use the Tiptronic to down change to slow the car down as the tranny fluid aireiates and gets too hot - you then get even worse changes.
I'll have to disagree with this! Especially if using the SP-III-outperforming Amsoil ATF. and an ATF cooler.

My ATF has now done approximately 25,000 miles since being flushed and refilled with Amsoil ATF, the first 15,000 without an ATF cooler, and is still in pretty good condition. The gearbox is very smooth in gear and on changes, and is no different after an ECU reset either.

During that time, I have repeatedly used engine braking in tiptronic mode, most notably when on track at Castle Combe and around the Ring. Think nothing of changing down into 3rd at 90mph and 2nd at 60mph. Admittedly, SP-III would have been toasted by now, but it doesn't give you worse changes when it overheats - you get the flashing 'N'. The worse changes appear when the fluid has degraded and/or the internal parts are getting varnished!

Ok - so we *are* talking about 15-year-old gearboxes, but they are still modern technology after all. It's not some old autobox from 30 or 40 years ago. Otherwise, just what is the point of introducing a tiptronic mode?

[Beastlee]

I'll have to disagree with this! Especially if using the SP-III-outperforming Amsoil ATF. and an ATF cooler.

My ATF has now done approximately 25,000 miles since being flushed and refilled with Amsoil ATF, the first 15,000 without an ATF cooler, and is still in pretty good condition. The gearbox is very smooth in gear and on changes, and is no different after an ECU reset either.

During that time, I have repeatedly used engine braking in tiptronic mode, most notably when on track at Castle Combe and around the Ring. Think nothing of changing down into 3rd at 90mph and 2nd at 60mph. Admittedly, SP-III would have been toasted by now, but it doesn't give you worse changes when it overheats - you get the flashing 'N'. The worse changes appear when the fluid has degraded and/or the internal parts are getting varnished!

Ok - so we *are* talking about 15-year-old gearboxes, but they are still modern technology after all. It's not some old autobox from 30 or 40 years ago. Otherwise, just what is the point of introducing a tiptronic mode?


+1 here, I engine brake most of the time and I don't have an oil cooler. I am yet to suffer any problems for doing so.

[lateshow]

Hi again and thanks for your replies, I was right when I assumed that you would know a bit more about this, I propably know most about this problem in the whole of Finland. (I'm not sure about the right way to say that.

Yes, I have been braking with my engine and yes I'm using mitsubishi oils. But I don't do that too often, let's say once or twice a week if I'm in the mood for that. I hate using brakes all the time. Actually I didn't know that I'm not supposed to use the tiptronic function to slow down, well now I know.

Flushing the transmission can be quite expensive, about 200 euros for 12 litres of oil here. I think that if I change the fluids, the box stays the same.

When I was changing the cups I couldn't sense anything with my finger in the cup. Mut now I'm getting a bit vibration when slowing down so it must be partially those damn (expensive 300 euros each) cups. And my driver's side wheel bearing is doing some little noise when I'm doing over 80 kmh.

My goal is to get the car to feel "like new" this summer. Otherwise it's a great car but as said, the transmission feels a bit ****ty and spoils my joy. :( If I have to I'll get a transmission from another car or have the damn thing rebuilt. Also planning to get the RPW downpipe next weekend and flash my ecu (7203FA) for better performance, now I have been driving with a boost controller at 0,9 bar boost.

[lateshow]

Admittedly, SP-III would have been toasted by now, but it doesn't give you worse changes when it overheats - you get the flashing 'N'. The worse changes appear when the fluid has degraded and/or the internal parts are getting varnished!

Ok - so we *are* talking about 15-year-old gearboxes, but they are still modern technology after all. It's not some old autobox from 30 or 40 years ago. Otherwise, just what is the point of introducing a tiptronic mode?


That is what i'm afraid, is it the clutches that could be ruined, propably turbine doesn't cause bad changes. It's hard to say does turbine slip too much. The program is a bit silly, it uses 3rd gear for too low speeds and causes slipping. :( Well you're all propably aware of this.

[ryanjames.powell]

Otherwise, just what is the point of introducing a tiptronic mode?

I agree fully with that, because the tiptronic mode is absolutely useless for upshifting when you're going hard, because there is a slight shift delay by which time you have often gone past the red line. In auto mode it will shift exactly on the redline if you have your foot flat, so the only real use for tiptronic mode is if you want engine braking. That's the main reason I use it, it saves brake pads.

[bradc]

I like it because it can keep the car in a single gear while going around a corner, or you can preselect a gear before something comes up as you can see the road ahead at the auto can not.

[Beastlee]

I agree fully with that, because the tiptronic mode is absolutely useless for upshifting when you're going hard, because there is a slight shift delay by which time you have often gone past the red line. In auto mode it will shift exactly on the redline if you have your foot flat, so the only real use for tiptronic mode is if you want engine braking. That's the main reason I use it, it saves brake pads.

Mine has minimal delay but I have also got used to it so shift that little earlier. That's not to say I'm always perfect with it /dunce

[lateshow]

I hate the delay too and it feels even worse to shift with tiptronic when shifting up, somehow ite seems as whole change is somehow done wrong, like in the wrong moment or something and the car notches a bit.

A friend of mine has logged his gearbox oil temperature. Sporty driving causes too high temperatures but during normal driving downshifting doesn't cause much rise in temperature.

[JoGoVR4]

apparently it is not just the rise in temperature caused by the extra friction but the Mitsubishi fluid aerates and loses viscosity - sounds like the Amsoil may be better in this respect - especially if driving fast and changing down from high revs....

There was a thread on here about it somewhere.... since i stopped doing it so often my box is a lot smoother.

Next time i get it serviced tho i think i may go for a flush and the Amsoil....

[JoGoVR4]

Guys, Carrying on this discussion on ATF. I am now persuaded to go for the Amsoil. BUT i understand to flush the box AND the clutch, you have to take the whole box out. Is this true?

What are the implications of not getting all the existing SPIII out and therefore mixing with the Amsoil?

[Davezj]

it is not a full box out job read the auto box flush article in the library this will tell you how to do it.

[JoGoVR4]

yeah, found it thanks,
Bull**** from a local garage.
Lost my local Mitsubishi man - he's gone missing!!!

[daneosaur]

I have never known a TC on a VR4 to fail like that. The two normal causes of shudder are:

* Gearbox - this will appear as a drivetrain shudder in 4th or 5th at light to medium throttle. Backing off will solve the issue, but so will hard acceleration. Normally occurs at 30-40 mph.
* Inner CV joints - this will appear as a vibration through the whole car, potentially more violent than the gearbox shudder. It will be progressively worse the harder you accelerate and will happen further up the rev range. Accelerating hard from 40-60mph should show this up, whereas the same conditions with the gearbox shudder won't.

It may end up being a red herring, but potentially just swapping the inner CV joints from one side to the other may help if that is the issue. And it's not a huge job - the green outers tap of the gearbox/transfer box lay shafts and the bearings inside stay on the inner end of the drive shaft. The only other thing to do is release the rubber boot from the green outer.

I'm not saying your car must have one of these faults, I'm just saying that these faults are relatively common and I'm not aware of any other common fault.


Hi Nick, Im having the same trobles with my legnum, and I know that I have a split in my lefthand side inner drive shaft boot. also I have done the poly engine mount install but couldnt get to the rear roll stopper. would the rear roll stopper cause vibrations under light/medium acceleration? It does vibrate under hard accelleration too. Any thoughts would be muchly appreciated

[Nick Mann]

I know people have had vibrations with mismatched mounts but I can't help more than that I'm afraid. If I remember who then I will search.

[daneosaur]

The first potential issue you pointed out regarding the gearbox : "Gearbox - this will appear as a drivetrain shudder in 4th or 5th at light to medium throttle. Backing off will solve the issue, but so will hard acceleration. Normally occurs at 30-40 mph" is a closer diagnosis. Is this to do with transmission fluid?

[Nick Mann]

Yes. Old or incorrect fluid will make the issue worse as the friction properties are not right. I would flush the box with Amsoil ATF. There are other SPIII compatible atfs out there but Amsoil is fully synthetic and is able to clean burnt oil and glazing from the clutch packs.

[daneosaur]

Thanks heaps for that. Ill drop it off to the shop this week and put forward the possible issues and go from there. Ill get back to you once (eventually) it is fixed. Thanks again.