MAF to MAP

[gareth001]

OK here goes, my first potential mod since I imported the car - removal of the MAF sensor and put in a MAP. Now I have the HKS FCON V-Pro ECU and you can just buy the sensor to plug into it. Questions are though:


What is needed as well as the MAP as assuming the MAF is removed, not just disconnected? So hard piping for that section?
Is this a better step to do rather than putting back in the stock airbox? (Yes I know big debate now...)
Is there anything else I need to consider 1st, like fuel pump, injectors?


Mods on car currently (that I know of):


Blitz Sus Power induction kit (cone filter) with origional ram air ducting from grill
HKS F-Con V-Pro ECU
HKS EBC
Greddy Intercooler
Greddy Oil Cooler
Cat Back Exhaust


Thanks for any advice

[TAR]

I'm no expert so the following is only based on my limited knowldge!!

1. With the MAF removed, the cone filter with a cold air feed should be fine (its the flow disruption from the cone with a MAF which is bad)

2. I believe that you will need to 'fix' the inlet air temperature to the stock ecu once the MAF is gone.

3. If you are running boost and getting fuel cut, then consider an uprated fuel pump and FPR.

4. bigger injectors are only really needed if your target BHP figure is likely to be in excess of 330BHP.

I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable will be along soon to put this straight!

:happy:

[gareth001]

I'm no expert so the following is only based on my limited knowldge!!

1. With the MAF removed, the cone filter with a cold air feed should be fine (its the flow disruption from the cone with a MAF which is bad)

2. I believe that you will need to 'fix' the inlet air temperature to the stock ecu once the MAF is gone.

3. If you are running boost and getting fuel cut, then consider an uprated fuel pump and FPR.

4. bigger injectors are only really needed if your target BHP figure is likely to be in excess of 330BHP.

I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable will be along soon to put this straight!

:happy:

OK the car was running at 1.1-1.2 bar in Japan so pushing around the 350bhp apparently. So this is what I will aim at - I was thinking to get the maf removed when I get the car mapped correctly for UK fuel.

How would you "fix" the inlet air temperature to the stock ECU? My understanding - although little, was that the HKS ECU sends these signals across to the Mitsi ECU.

[Turbo_Steve]

Indeed, if it has been properly fitted then the HKS will do all the lying to the factory ECU that is needed.

Unfortunately, the work will need to be done by an "HKS Master programmer"....you can't simply delete the MAF and add in a MAP, the HKS will need to be reconfigured. They will also need to fit a temperature sensor, as MAP / Speed Density isn't very accurate without knowing the temperature.
You also usually lose your barometric compensation, so no trying to climb any mountains :D


There is some debate as to whether the temperature sensor is best fitted pre- or post- turbo.

My preference is for post turbo, allowing the ECU to compensate for intercooler ineffcicieny etc., however this can upset running at cruise.

As you're paying for the work to be done on the HKS, you may wish to consider having it remapped for UK fuel (as it will definitely be running lean if it's mapped aggressively for Jap fuel).

If you're having it remapped, you may want to consider having a nice big intercooler fitted to get the most of your turbos, as well as asking the mapper to keep an eye on fuel rail pressure to ensure your pump isn't tiring at high flow levels.

Finally: be aware that more boost does not neccesarily = more power, especially with a piggy back ECU.
The HKS will either be rescaling the engine load, which means your timing curve will be pulled back further as you run more boost, or it clamps the ECU load signal and then builds additional rows past this point, driving the injectors directly. This is great, as it means you get whatever timing the ECU uses in it's penultimate load-row, but not-so-good in that the timing can be limiting in higher gears / load scenarios at higher boost.


F-Con is a great piece of kit, but needs to be used with caution.

I'd want an AFR gauge in the car at those sort of power levels, to say the least.

Finally, it's possible you'll also get more power by upgrading the ignition system at this point. Or maybe not. :) It's worth bearing in mind that better coils = bigger plug gaps = more controlled burn.

Finally

[AlanDITD]

Yeah what steve said..........:rolleyes4

Sounds like a funky bit of kit, I would replace all the essential sensors if it was mine with new/HKS ones i.e TPS......do you really want the car running that kind of power on 13 year old sensors? If a sensor fails will the HKS compensate so to speak, i.e go into limp mode or simaler?

Also why is it still being set up as a piggy back? I thought F-Con was/could be run as full standalone?


Sounds like a it will be wicked once done though!

Good luck!

[gareth001]

Indeed, if it has been properly fitted then the HKS will do all the lying to the factory ECU that is needed.

Unfortunately, the work will need to be done by an "HKS Master programmer"....you can't simply delete the MAF and add in a MAP, the HKS will need to be reconfigured. They will also need to fit a temperature sensor, as MAP / Speed Density isn't very accurate without knowing the temperature.
You also usually lose your barometric compensation, so no trying to climb any mountains :D


There is some debate as to whether the temperature sensor is best fitted pre- or post- turbo.

My preference is for post turbo, allowing the ECU to compensate for intercooler ineffcicieny etc., however this can upset running at cruise.

As you're paying for the work to be done on the HKS, you may wish to consider having it remapped for UK fuel (as it will definitely be running lean if it's mapped aggressively for Jap fuel).

If you're having it remapped, you may want to consider having a nice big intercooler fitted to get the most of your turbos, as well as asking the mapper to keep an eye on fuel rail pressure to ensure your pump isn't tiring at high flow levels.

Finally: be aware that more boost does not neccesarily = more power, especially with a piggy back ECU.
The HKS will either be rescaling the engine load, which means your timing curve will be pulled back further as you run more boost, or it clamps the ECU load signal and then builds additional rows past this point, driving the injectors directly. This is great, as it means you get whatever timing the ECU uses in it's penultimate load-row, but not-so-good in that the timing can be limiting in higher gears / load scenarios at higher boost.


F-Con is a great piece of kit, but needs to be used with caution.

I'd want an AFR gauge in the car at those sort of power levels, to say the least.

Finally, it's possible you'll also get more power by upgrading the ignition system at this point. Or maybe not. :) It's worth bearing in mind that better coils = bigger plug gaps = more controlled burn.

Finally

OK I think I'm now both more knowledgable and confused at the same time...

Intercooler is already sorted and yes I had already planned the re-tune at an HKS dealer anyway. I just want to get the MAF removed if it makes sense to do so whilst I'm getting it tuned. No point in spending £400 twice! But at the same time I don't won't to be removing the MAP to find I need to spend £100's on other parts to compensate.

Would loosing the barometric compensation effect the winter running though?

I was going to get EVOSCAN GPS when/shortly after I get it mapped as well so can view the AFR and various other sensors all the time.

I see your point Alan on replacing all the sensors - I think I may take it to an HKS power writer to get a once over look to see actually what is plugged into it first - then get it tuned once get more sensors if needed. Although fitting the F-CON as a replacement I hear is only really done on full on race cars that don't need to worry about idle and other luxuries. As far as I was aware the F-Con as a piggy back managed all the Engine running and let the stock ECU do the boring stuff like the chocke.

[AlanDITD]

Yeah sory mate i wasnt saying it couldnt be run as piggy back :)

[gareth001]

Yeah sory mate i wasnt saying it couldnt be run as piggy back :)

No worries - my bad.

[Turbo_Steve]

To be honest, I'd ask why you really want to get rid of the MAF? It's a great bit of kit.

Barometric compensation is only relevant to altitude. Temperature will be catered for by the pressure / temperature / load calculation.

So winter shouldn't make any difference.

Barometric compensation is basically where the ECU "calibrates" the MAP sensor against the current atmospheric pressure.

As the HKS is a PiggyBack, and essentially lying to your factory ECU, I would question the relevance of EvoScan. All it will tell you is what the factory ECU >thinks< it's doing. You really need a wideband AFR independant from all that to tell you when it's going pear shaped. You can have it wired back to the factory ECU for use on cruise (most have a narrowband emulation output) and if you wanted the F-Con will probably support a wideband input, though your tuner is more likely to thank you than you ever caring.

Finally, you might consider a knocklink to be a good investment: just in case. You're getting to the point where an underperfming fuel component is liable to have catastrophic results.

[gareth001]

To be honest, I'd ask why you really want to get rid of the MAF? It's a great bit of kit.

Barometric compensation is only relevant to altitude. Temperature will be catered for by the pressure / temperature / load calculation.

So winter shouldn't make any difference.

Barometric compensation is basically where the ECU "calibrates" the MAP sensor against the current atmospheric pressure.

As the HKS is a PiggyBack, and essentially lying to your factory ECU, I would question the relevance of EvoScan. All it will tell you is what the factory ECU >thinks< it's doing. You really need a wideband AFR independant from all that to tell you when it's going pear shaped. You can have it wired back to the factory ECU for use on cruise (most have a narrowband emulation output) and if you wanted the F-Con will probably support a wideband input, though your tuner is more likely to thank you than you ever caring.

Finally, you might consider a knocklink to be a good investment: just in case. You're getting to the point where an underperfming fuel component is liable to have catastrophic results.

Reason I was thinking of getting rid of the MAF was that I have cone filter and not the stock air box. As the HKS supports removing the MAF with little aparent cost it made me think is it worth it.

So advice is Steve - keep everything as is because after all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! But invest in a wideband AFR instead idependant of everything else. So which AFR? These can be purchased for silly money am I right?

[Turbo_Steve]

Which AFR is a bit of a big question. People have used the Innovate kit to good effect, and it's cheap.

AEM do some call AFR stuff called UEGO I believe.

I have been a long-term fan of PLX kit, but it's getting a bit spangly-expensive these days.

The MAF tends to read wrong with a cone bolted straight to it: but if your HKS has been mapped with this setup, then it will be compensating for the incorrect readings.

Saying that, if you wanted to bolt a length of pipe between the MAF and the cone, with a bend in it, to stablise the airflow, it's more likely to be reading "correctly" in factory ECU terms.

[peter thomson]

There is a used PLX R500 for sale here

http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=99129

[Turbo_Steve]

ohh Good find!

[gareth001]

Looks like a battery to boot, relocate cone filter, AFR gauge and finally a re-map.

Or just the AFR gauge and re-map b/Hmmm

[AlanDITD]

a friend the Inovate in the passed and it required calibrating all the time, he generally found it a pain in the ass, and switched to a PLX

[Nutter_John]

If you want to log afr's in evoscan then only the innovate and the AEM work , the PLX has no serial out so if crap for data logging

[gareth001]

If you want to log afr's in evoscan then only the innovate and the AEM work , the PLX has no serial out so if crap for data logging

So: http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/searchpartnumber.php?prodID=53000?

[Nutter_John]

Yeah thats the same one I have in the evo , very good and can be read by evoscan


Just a athought before you buy it check if evoscan works with the vcon connected on there ?

[gareth001]

Yeah thats the same one I have in the evo , very good and can be read by evoscan


Just a athought before you buy it check if evoscan works with the vcon connected on there ?

Yeah I need to check into that - think an email to evoscan is in order.

[Nutter_John]

or arrange a local mini meet with a member who has evoscan and a OP2 /1.3 cable

[gareth001]

or arrange a local mini meet with a member who has evoscan and a OP2 /1.3 cable

No better knowledge than "trial and error" - although hopefully more of the trial and less of the error.

[Turbo_Steve]

John, the R500 does logging to USB? It's not into EvoScan, I know, but it'll log other stuff as well as knock, afr and EGT.

The later PLX stuff will also do logging using their cable.

Worth noting that both will (using the PLX software) squirt to a text file, which you can time link with the EvoScan file with a bit of effort.

It's not as integrated though, I will happily admit.

I BELIEVE (but haven't tried) that you can use an RS232 emulator to create a virtual COM port associated with the PLX stuff that will allow EvoScan to see the hardware, though I don't know whether it will interpret the data stream or not: I haven't got EvoScan.

[apeman69]

So: http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/searchpartnumber.php?prodID=53000?
I think that's just the gauge though. Don't forget you'd still need the O2 sensor to connect to it, unless you've already got one of course.

http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/item_detail.php?prodID=52999 perhaps?

[gareth001]

I think that's just the gauge though. Don't forget you'd still need the O2 sensor to connect to it, unless you've already got one of course.

http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/item_detail.php?prodID=52999 perhaps?

Ahh another £70 then - oh well, have to put more pennies in my jar then :anxious: