H&S goes to far!

[mesobitchy]

UGH! Can you believe this?!

H&S have gone to far now!!


im trying to find it on the news website now, but no luck as of yet.

any way the jist of it was this, cartoons are having to change due to H&S.

heard this on the local radio this morning.

[WildCards]

Isn't this just Pepper Pig, not cartoons in general?

Due to Pepper Pig not wearing a cartoon seat belt in the cartoon car she drives.

Fecking ridiculous IMO

[ANTHONY]

Isn't this just Pepper Pig, not cartoons in general?

Due to Pepper Pig not wearing a cartoon seat belt in the cartoon car she drives.

Fecking ridiculous IMObut how old is pepper pigs car? it maybe exempt form the usage of seat belts as it may have been registered before 1 January 1965

[WildCards]

No, it was certainly drawn after 1965!

[mesobitchy]

i think it will cover most if not all cartoons.

it is be honed a joke if you ask me!

[johny105]

i hate H&S with a passion. and flaunt the rules wherever i can:satan:

[AlanDITD]

i hate H&S with a passion. and flaunt the rules wherever i can:satan:

Stupidest pst of the week goes to...........

The levels that health and saftey try and go to is rediclous.

To flaunt things that might just save your life one day, or save you an injury is just childish.

[Mice_Elf]

Well, in that case I think The Simpsons should be looked into. I mean that's been going for at least 10 years and Maggie STILL hasn't learned to talk, walk or attend a day of school. Do her parents not speak to her at all?

[johny105]

i only argue and break the stupid rules and obey common sense

[davcom1]

Send all H&S officials to Afghanistan/Iraq to explain to radical Muslims just how dangerous strapping a bomb around your waist can be!

FFS.

H&S was/is a great thing but I cannot help but think that some of these people have run out of ideas and therefore new sources of cash.

The original idea was to protect industrial workers and the like. A year or so back I had a 'friend' who is a H&S assessor visit our offices because we employ apprentices. He was keen to point out the danger of me having a wall electrical socket behind my desk in the "on" position but without a plug in it! Yikes!! If we managed to employ someone stooopid enough (and clever enough) to get their fingers into the socket (bearing in mind this would also require another finger inserted into the earth to lift the protector plate) then they surely deserve electricution!

[WildCards]

Well, in that case I think The Simpsons should be looked into. I mean that's been going for at least 10 years and Maggie STILL hasn't learned to talk, walk or attend a day of school. Do her parents not speak to her at all?

Have you seen the Simpsons?



:p

[I-S]

Two points that have not been raised while everyone has been jumping on the "H&S is stupid" bandwagon...

1) This has only come about in response to an actual case of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt because of seeing that the character in this show did not. There was no legal enforcement nor any pressure placed by the authorities - the desire to set an example came from parents.

2) Whilst it is all very well to say "Well just use common sense", the people posting here are (supposedly...) adults. Children, particularly of the age that this show is aimed at, do not yet have that common sense nor understanding of self-preservation. It is learned from the things they see and hear - this being one of them.

So let's see... either children can be allowed to learn through gentle encouragement and example so that they might understand and WANT to wear a seatbelt, or perhaps they can be yelled at, slapped around the head and told "JUST DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD". Seems to me that people are objecting to "do what you're told" in H&S for adults so why the double standard?

[mesobitchy]

it is down to the perants to teach there kids, but then it dose mean that they might have to do something that there kids might benifit from!

Kai was taught "the rules of the car" from a young age, and we always asked him when we got into the car, "kai, what is the first rule of the car?" and he woud reply.... "seat belts on!"

it is down to pearting skills, not fecking cartoons to teach kids!

[Roberto]

So Kai has never learnt or asked a question that he has seen on a cartoon?

And Mazz thankfully you are one of the smart people that does not leave thier childs education to TV, unfortunitly some parents do.

I agree H&S has gone a bit mad, like Political Correctness.

But then I'm glad to be working on the site of the safest site of one the safest company in the world.

[mesobitchy]

not to my immediate memory, we have always raised him to not always believe what he see's or reads, and to always ask us if he is unsure of anything.

he has never been one for TV, thankfully! if TV has been on then it has 99% of the time been music channels, now we no longer watch TV at all. it is just another expence we can do without.
music, books games and outside fun is better then the veggie box. :)

[Vince]

Good for you Mazz...

but as it was stated before a lot of parents let the tv teach their children. It is really that way here. We have latchkey kids who rarely even see their parents, or parent...

It is sad that a government has to step in and dictate what should be parents job

[mesobitchy]

and i guess this brings on the next thing:
bad behaved children, the world complans about the bad behaviour that todays kids seem to have.

and why is that i hear you ask?
(some might already know)

it is simple, we have had the right taken away from us to discipline our child(ren), the schools have had the rights to take necessary action. why?
god damn PC!
if we even think of dicipline our child then the world and his PC wife will come down on us like a tone of bricks!:rulez:

if know one can teach the child(ren) right from wrong and take steps that need to be taken, what the hell dose the world expect?!:ranton:


well bollocks to that, i say! i will do what i need to do to make sure my kids are raised in the right mannor and are taught to respect adults!
speak there mind and not have to sugar coat things to please others.

[Vince]

I will have to disagree there, spanking a child has been taken away, or beating a child yes. But you adapt and learn new things that will control the child's behaviour.

There are other ways to teach a child other than beating them.

And no I am not saying you do...

[AlanDITD]

**** poliical correctness, its ruining this country. If i ever have kids and they step out of line the will get the same treatment i got...

....beaten :D

But seriously a good slap sorted me out when i was a twat my mother still slaps me now.

[WildCards]

We haven't had the rights taken away from us to discipline our children at all, what a load of nonsense.

If parents can't discipline their children without resorting to beating the crap out of them or shouting in their faces they shouldn't have children.

[johny105]

my 4ft 10" 88year old grandmother tells 6ft 2" me that i'm not too old for a slapped bum, She means it aswell!

[mesobitchy]

my kids get raised the same i did.

and no one is going to tell me to change my ways.

and johny, FEAR YOUR NAN! /haz

[davcom1]

So let's see... either children can be allowed to learn through gentle encouragement and example so that they might understand and WANT to wear a seatbelt, or perhaps they can be yelled at, slapped around the head and told "JUST DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD". Seems to me that people are objecting to "do what you're told" in H&S for adults so why the double standard?

Or perhaps we could explain that the thing on TV is just a cartoon? Perhaps we could also reason with the child that they won't be able to go anywhere with mum/dad/whoever unless they wear a seatbelt - thus we provide the child with a choice and help them learn the power of reason. I don't see why there are only 2 options?

If children really are that impressionable then why didn't I spend hours looking for Wombles at the common when I was a youngster?

How the hell I survived after watching Wacky Races is beyond me!

In the interests of safety, we'll make sure a cartoon pig wears an artbrushed seatbelt and no doubt we'll see plenty of mirror-signal-manoeuvre from the driver after performing the obligatory once-over check of the vehicle but later the same day, mum/dad will be watching Eastenders, little Johnny will be with them to see someone hit over the head with a heavy object, lots of shouting and not one couple in a happy relationship.

That would be after the teatime news showing guns, bombs, explosions and countless people in third world countries driving with no seatbelt and even hanging onto the sides of trains.

But its okay everyone, because Peppa Pig had a seatbelt on.

Erm... out of interest, that old guy and kid who recently tied balloons to the house and flew away (cartoon "Up!")... I'm guessing they wore parachutes or are the letters of horror and complaint on their way to Disney/Pixar right now?

[mesobitchy]

Or perhaps we could explain that the thing on TV is just a cartoon? Perhaps we could also reason with the child that they won't be able to go anywhere with mum/dad/whoever unless they wear a seatbelt - thus we provide the child with a choice and help them learn the power of reason. I don't see why there are only 2 options?

If children really are that impressionable then why didn't I spend hours looking for Wombles at the common when I was a youngster?

How the hell I survived after watching Wacky Races is beyond me!

In the interests of safety, we'll make sure a cartoon pig wears an artbrushed seatbelt and no doubt we'll see plenty of mirror-signal-manoeuvre from the driver after performing the obligatory once-over check of the vehicle but later the same day, mum/dad will be watching Eastenders, little Johnny will be with them to see someone hit over the head with a heavy object, lots of shouting and not one couple in a happy relationship.

That would be after the teatime news showing guns, bombs, explosions and countless people in third world countries driving with no seatbelt and even hanging onto the sides of trains.

But its okay everyone, because Peppa Pig had a seatbelt on.

Erm... out of interest, that old guy and kid who recently tied balloons to the house and flew away (cartoon "Up!")... I'm guessing they wore parachutes or are the letters of horror and complaint on their way to Disney/Pixar right now?


PMSL!
if it is on TV or the big screen, you know it must be real!

[Mice_Elf]

Two points that have not been raised while everyone has been jumping on the "H&S is stupid" bandwagon...

1) This has only come about in response to an actual case of a child refusing to wear a seatbelt because of seeing that the character in this show did not. There was no legal enforcement nor any pressure placed by the authorities - the desire to set an example came from parents.

2) Whilst it is all very well to say "Well just use common sense", the people posting here are (supposedly...) adults. Children, particularly of the age that this show is aimed at, do not yet have that common sense nor understanding of self-preservation. It is learned from the things they see and hear - this being one of them.

So let's see... either children can be allowed to learn through gentle encouragement and example so that they might understand and WANT to wear a seatbelt, or perhaps they can be yelled at, slapped around the head and told "JUST DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD". Seems to me that people are objecting to "do what you're told" in H&S for adults so why the double standard?


"Are you a pig?"
"No."
"Right - then *you* wear your seatbelt."

Simples. :D

I rarely, if ever, see pigs talking, wearing clothes & driving cars, let alone parking at a 67* angle on their hill of a driveway. :D
My daughter's 4 and can understand the difference between television cartoons & real life, and has done for a while.

I can understand the copying Superman trait, as at least he's human (bear with me), but if any parent lets their child get away with not wearing a seatbelt because of Peppa Pig, then I suggest a) parenting lessons and b) turning off the television & actually interacting with their children themselves.

Yes, common sense must be used. Parents are there to teach their children through common sense, encouragement & reward. They will also see their parents putting on seatbelts (one hopes), so they are also learning from example. Peppa Pig's parents don't wear seatbelts & Daddy Pig's head sticks above the windscreen height - another blatant H&S foul.

H&S has to bow to the lowest common denominator, or those parents that teach by shouting, swearing, hitting, parking their children in front of the television for hours on end & talking at, rather than to their offspring. Unfortunately, that can come across as patronising & ridiculous to the rest of us.

One parent complaining does not, in my mind, a re-write make. Look at all those parents complaining that CBeebies new presenter gives their poor darlings nightmares because she's missing her lower arm. They called for her to be sacked, for goodness' sakes. Fortunately the BBC stood their ground, but some parents should be forced to take parenting lessons.

There, rant over.

Breathe...

[Mice_Elf]

Have you seen the Simpsons?



:p


I try to avoid doing so. :D

:mexicanwav

[davcom1]

And from an old email viral (an adaptation of an original article by someone called Lori Bergman)

Below is the obituary for Common Sense:

‘Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as: Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm; Life isn’t always fair; and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended
from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an
abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, I Want It Now, Someone Else Is To Blame, and I’m A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

[Turbo_Steve]

I can't really see how this has anything to do with H&S unless it's specifically a directive from the H&S executive? It sounds rather closer to me to an "idiotic middle management decision", of which we're all regularly victims.

[Johnny_Cashed]

I can't really see how this has anything to do with H&S unless it's specifically a directive from the H&S executive? It sounds rather closer to me to an "idiotic middle management decision", of which we're all regularly victims.

+1. I don't see that this is a H&S decision, more of a preemptive decision by a govt body which is overly concerned. I think this is the same with infamous conkers decision?

And I also agree with Wildcards. How can parents say on one hand that they lead by example and presumably tell their children that it is wrong to hit others, but then hit them?

[Mice_Elf]

And I also agree with Wildcards. How can parents say on one hand that they lead by example and presumably tell their children that it is wrong to hit others, but then hit them?


Not all parents hit/smack/slap their children. Just like to point that out.

"Hit" is such an emotive term. It implies a lot of force behind it & some strong emotion. I think that's why people use it in terms of adults versus children, because it evokes more of a response than "slap".

Once you start smacking / hitting / slapping your children, you've effectively lost the argument. Whatever the argument was. If you can't reason with your child, or effectively explain what they did wrong, & how they can improve or better the situation, then you should take a long hard look at yourself. Children don't need physical reprimands & if you, as a parent, feel that they do just to get the point across, you're not much of a parent.

IMHO, only.

[WildCards]

Certainly agree with that Mice, although I admit to having given my boys a thick ear when they're not paying attention.

Whats are peoples thought's on things like cold showers and having a bar of soap shoved into your mouth? Both are things that happened to me and to be honest, I now look back and think they did me alot of good, but I can understand not all children would react in the same way to it as I did.

[mesobitchy]

thick ears, slapped wrists, slapped bums, nothing wrong what so ever in them.
the corner and naughty step can only do so much, talking, reasioning with a child can only go so far, sometimes an abbrupt change to 2hock them back is wat could be needed.

PC and H&S there for a good reasion, but they have become so over rulin gin todays lifes they are almsot behond a joke.

[Turbo_Steve]

That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, Meso.

If you're having to resort to that, then you've lost their respect, and if you've lost their respect then you've already failed.

What you're saying is that you can only discipline your child as long as you have a physical advantage. All you're teaching that child to do is how to push your buttons.

You're the grown up! You have complete power over everything that child does!

Misbehaving?
Fine - tonight you sleep on the floor.
All your things, ALL of them go in black bags in the garage until you apologise.
Tomorrow, you will wear an old school shirt with "Naughty little boy/girl" written on it (or whatever) and with a note from Mummy for the teacher. That's pretty humiliating when you're 10 years old.....bet there is no repeat offence!

Physical punishment is the weak, easy option for when you can't be bothered to come up with a proper punishment and stick to it.



If there's nothing wrong with a Thick Ear, then how about next time you're caught speeding you get given one by a copper?


FFS people, the kids at my School who got smacked by Mum and Dad were always the ones who were smacked so often that they didn't give a sh!t anymore - it stops hurting.
Have a few fights - pain is something that you just learn to ignore.

What kind of punishment is one that you "get used to"?


The best example of effective punishment one of the daughters of my work colleague. She'd been really naughty all morning. He raised his voice and said that he'd had enough, and one more infraction and she'd be punished.

She threw her drink on the floor and took herself off to the naughty step for 6 minutes (!) and then came back and apologised for being naughty. She was told thank you for apologising, but that she would need a further 3 minutes for throwing her drink on the floor.

She did her time, came back, had a huge cuddle and a quiet chat, and revealed that she just wanted Mummy and Daddy to get down on the floor and play with her. They did and she was a good girl all afternoon.

When you think you need to slap a child - ask yourself WHY they are behaving the way they are. The answers are often pretty upsetting.

[Mice_Elf]

Certainly agree with that Mice, although I admit to having given my boys a thick ear when they're not paying attention.

Whats are peoples thought's on things like cold showers and having a bar of soap shoved into your mouth? Both are things that happened to me and to be honest, I now look back and think they did me alot of good, but I can understand not all children would react in the same way to it as I did.


I have to admit, mine are still very young (4 & 19 months) so maybe I've not reached that point where a short, sharp shock is required. :) My 4 year old definitely responds better to eye level explanations, rather than naughty step or taking away toys.

In context, cold showers & soap can be effective, but it depends on the child, the age of said child & the circumstances. It's if the treatment is constant, then it loses impact.

My brother (he was 8 or 9, possibly older at the time) was once chucked into his bath fully clothed because he refused to get undressed. I can remember only 2 occasions when I got a slap on the legs from my mum & I still vividly remember them because they were so out of the ordinary. Had she slapped me every day or even just regularly, it would just be another commonplace occurrence, so why bother paying attention?

My friend, for example, used to shout whilst playing with her 4 children. It would be absolute bedlam as they were all shouting, but then she found that if she needed to shout at them for something naughty, they couldn't care less because she was always shouting, albeit in a playing way.

Someone else I know routinely swears & threatens her children with smacks, "I'll f***ing slap you one in a minute" etc), but never explains or talks to them & never follows through with her threats of being grounded, loss of toys or treats, so she might as well be gibbering in a corner for all the notice her children pay of her. Her 4 year old can't talk at a level 4 year olds should be able to routinely use, swears, & is just horrible to be around, because that's all she knows from home.

Every child is different, all circumstances are different. What works for one child might not work on another child even of the same family. It's finding what works for that particular child & enforcing it.

Parenting skills seems to be pushed further & further into history with each year that passes. One of our neighbours had boys of 4 & 3 when they first moved in & they used to be chucked out to play as soon as school & pre-school had finished & not allowed back inside until tea time, even if it was raining. Then back outside until bed. At weekends they were not allowed inside at all, except for meals, which they generally ate outside on the pavement. They were allowed to go off down to the park, which admittedly is not far, but it's out of sight & shouting distance) with the 4 year old in charge of the 3 year old.

But it still all boils down to common sense. Constantly slapping a child around the back of the head for something trivial, or just because you can't explain to him/her why something is naughty or wrong, is not right.


Anyway...emotive subject & one about which I feel quite strongly, as I'm sure is obvious. :)

[mesobitchy]

steve you are making out like i punish my kids every day!!

different methods work in different circumstances.
each perant has there own way of dealing with it,
lets take this for example,

Kai, please stop swinging that toy golf club as that is for outside use only, i will take it off you as you could break something if u carry on with that indoors,
*carrys on swinging* KAI! i told you now give that to me now, please.

one more swing while trying to take it it off of him and he plants it into the 500liter fishtank,

smacked bum with sever telling off? you bloody bet!

[WildCards]

/haz

CVR4 parenting classes now available in the club shop.

[Turbo_Steve]

Kai, please stop swinging that toy golf club as that is for outside use only, i will take it off you as you could break something if u carry on with that indoors,
*carrys on swinging* KAI! i told you now give that to me now, please.

one more swing while trying to take it it off of him and he plants it into the 500liter fishtank,

smacked bum with sever telling off? you bloody bet!

Actually, you've just totally proven my point.
He didn't stop swinging cos he wasn't listening to you.
He wasn't listening to you because the only punishment he gets for not listening is a smack.
Who cares about getting a smack?

swing......swing........swing.


The fact that he didn't just hand it over when you approached him the second time is indicative of a lack of respect for you.

Fear (of pain) is easy and wears of quick. Getting them to respect you is a LOT more difficult.

[mesobitchy]

no, it is call pushing the boundires.
not lack of respect.

[WildCards]

:vogel: :stop:

[davcom1]

Going backwards slightly, I believe the decision to add seatbelts was taken by the animators but regardless of who made the decision, it is more to do with why.

I have no doubt that these knee-jerk reactions occur because of the underlying fear of lawsuits, loss of business, and tut-tutting from the Holier Than Thou PC brigade. Rightly or wrongly, as a nation, we feel stifled by the intense bureaucracy. And yes, a lot of the fuss is over played by the media for headline purposes but there's no smoke without fire.

For a mother to complain that her daughter refuses to put on a seatbelt because this animated character doesn't wear one is itself an example of how we can no longer blame our own inabilities and instead point the finger at anything and everything else. This is what happens when so many "common sense" decisions are taken away from us... as soon as something goes wrong, blame the 'system' because it now runs our lives.

Ok, there's still plenty of intelligent people left who don't think this way... yet...

[davcom1]

Tomorrow, you will wear an old school shirt with "Naughty little boy/girl" written on it (or whatever) and with a note from Mummy for the teacher. That's pretty humiliating when you're 10 years old.....bet there is no repeat offence!


Steve - would the staff at school allow that? I can imagine they would deem it to be a form of bullying that's all.

Clever method though in extreme circumstances.

[Beastlee]

As a child I only ever recall a couple of occassions wher I got my legs slapped by my parents and I must have done something pretty bad to get that. Despite that I always knew not to get in trouble or I'd be in for it when I got home, what it was I never found out.
At boarding school I wasa regular rule breaker and I got the cane on my bare backside many a time (no it wasn't because I enjoyed it!). It wasn't that the caning didn't have the desired effect, more that I was rubbish at not getting caught doing naughty things. I certainly behaved better than if I thought someone would just tell me not to do it any more. I dont advocate caning but it mostly had the desired effect.
Anyone that knows me well will tell you I am very honest and polite and tend not to do bad things. I think my parents brought me up well and I therefore follow their ethos and techniques, albeit adapted slightly. My daughter, Sophie, has so far grown up to be much like me and is regarded as a very good child amoung our friends and relatives. She knows not to run around in innapropriate places and tends to stick to the seen but not heard way of life for the most part.

I hate to see unruly children and parents that seem not to care but this is the way of society these days. The British are much like the Americans in many social aspects and these days there is this whole you have to earn respect rubbish. Grown ups and teachers in particular have earnt the respect by going through life without causing trouble and gaining experience in life matters, they don't need to earn it with the next group of children that come along. The only people who have to earn respect are the children themselves. I find the media to blame for a lot of this, especially the way teen movies are depicted. We have programs like Shameless that seemingly promote being a drugged up layabout dole collector and this is not the example to set.
The media in general has slowly been allowed to erode the aspects of society that many of us grew up with. Why is it acceptable to swear all the time in movies? So many times there's been a great film that could be a PG but for some reason they feel they need to get someone to swear when in the particular situation a simpler non-swaer word would suffice. The same can be said for music, has anyone listened to the non-radio version of 'Riverside'? The chorus consists of the title followed by 'Mother F****r'! How is that necessary? I provide these as a simple example, there are many other things that have gone a similar way.
With regard to discipline I agree that you should avoid any kind of violence but there is one thing to consider. We are animals, albeit with advanced thought patterns, and animals will use a short sharp nip to warn their offspring that they are doing wrong. It's nature and used in moderation is effective. Humans like to think they are above these natural ways but we shoudl learn from them, it hasn't done nature any harm but humans have.

Anyway you should all be suitably asleep now, sorry for my rant, it's been nice to get it off my chest. I'll retreat to a safe distance now.

[Beastlee]

I lost the point of my UK/USA tie in.....many other countries do not suffer this kind of issue (at least not to the same extent) because they don't nanny the people. Germany's children for the most part are far more disciplined, however the outside influences can be seen to have started creeping in.

[davcom1]

Lee - Kudos to you. I cannot actually remember being smacked as a child but the threat was there and it did keep me in check and whilst I'm far from perfect, I hope I'm courteous, respectful and without mental scars.

[Beastlee]

Lee - Kudos to you. I cannot actually remember being smacked as a child but the threat was there and it did keep me in check and whilst I'm far from perfect, I hope I'm courteous, respectful and without mental scars.

I have a simliar hope, i just wish there were more people out there the same.

I've mentioned on here before that one of the things I love about Germany is it's traditional values (now too being slowly eroded) and the safety. If I could avoid returning to the UK again I would, the only thing it holds for me are my family and the Norfolk Broads.

[Johnny_Cashed]

The British are much like the Americans in many social aspects and these days there is this whole you have to earn respect rubbish. Grown ups and teachers in particular have earnt the respect by going through life without causing trouble and gaining experience in life matters, they don't need to earn it with the next group of children that come along. The only people who have to earn respect are the children themselves.

Beastlee I do not agree with the above statement. How is it an automatic entitlement? There are many unfit parents and teachers, yet they have a monopoly on respect? When I was a child, the people I respected were the teachers, friends parents, my own and other adults that spoke to me as a person, tried to develop my critical faculties and think independently. The teachers that lost their temper with children, shouted or carried out petty vendettas earned no respect from me and I think quite rightly.

Parents teachers and a child's elders in general need to set an example and not be hypocritical and explain the reasons behind decisions they take for a child not to see them as being unreasonable. If a child listens, takes on board what they say then surely mutual respect will develop between them? To me children shouldn't grow up with some ingrained deference to people based solely on their advance years. Seen and not heard is Victorian principle IMO.

All this is said from the point of view of someone with no kids though :D

[davcom1]

J_C - Owning a bathroom showroom and having parents bringing their liberated children in with them is a nightmare! There's a time for play and a time for quiet and calm which is perhaps the modern way of saying seen and not heard?

Of course, I've got not children either! :D

[Beastlee]

J_C, I'm not impling that they have an automatic entitlement to respect but that they have earnt it over the years (of course there is more work for those younger than older). There are many who have abused this and I quite agree hey do not reserve respect for this reason, I do however believe that hand-in-hand with the blame and claim culture we have also developed a I'll do what I want and you can't tell me otherwise culture.
Heidi has just helped me explain what I mean. Everybody deserves to be treated with a degree of respect. How they subsequently act to and around you will then affect how that level of respect changes. Children, and many adults have no respect for others whaatsover and this is seen in daily life in the UK.

Davcom1 - You're absolutely right in interpreting what I mean.

[Turbo_Steve]

Heidi has just helped me explain what I mean. Everybody deserves to be treated with a degree of respect. How they subsequently act to and around you will then affect how that level of respect changes. Children, and many adults have no respect for others whaatsover and this is seen in daily life in the UK.

That makes a lot more sense, Lee, and I wholeheartedly agree: A child should have a degree of automatic respect for a grown-up, as they ARE a grown up.
Mostly, I think they do, even if it's closer to cautious mistrust than respect in some cases..... :)

As Johnny quite accurately said, though, you teach by example, not by punishment (at least if you want any long-term success) and you can't teach by example if you've taught your children not to respect your authority.

[AlanDITD]

Thats so true leading by example is the best way to teach anyone not just children.... Vince pointed it out last night about these kids being a future, if we take it down a level back to say evolution.....what effects the way we are now, 1 simple thing environment.......

at the moment we have kids beaing beaten, slapped, locked outside, ignored, abused, raped, murdered and thats by the parents and granted some of that is very extreme but it still aplies....... If this kind of thing continues things are going to go horribly horribly wrong in the future. Eutopia has never seemed further away imo!

[Turbo_Steve]

Utopia, perhaps - I think EUtopia is something to do with Brussels? :D


You're completely correct, though, that how we behave towards the current (difficult) generation will dictate how the world looks in 25 years.

Whilst I can see Lee's point of view that discipline and mutual respect is key, I am not sure draconian punishments are the way forward, at least for children.

[AlanDITD]

LOL oops yeah i wish brussells was further away!