Sluggish facelift auto

[jb2815]

I'll start off by saying I've done heaps of searching on here but would like someones educated opinion on my situation.. :upsidedow

Ever since owning the car (98 legnum vr4 facelift auto) it seemed sluggish compared to my previous 97 galant vr4 PFL manual. Both cars are stock with the legnum only having an aftermarket exhaust. The galant seemed like it had way more torque/pull. At first after a bit of searching on forums I put it down to the auto having longer gear ratios, I'm not sure if it would influence this but that was just a guess as these are the only 2 VR4's I've ever driven..

I've bought a boost gauge yesterday to have a look and the results are..

Idle: around -20 inHg
Steady acc around town: around -14 inHg
On boost last night: exactly 6 psi
On boost today: 6-7 psi but went to 8 for a couple of seconds then dropped down

From 0-100km/h today it held a steady boost at 6.5psi.

Do these seem like the right values or do they seem low?

The fuel consumption is good, last tank was 12.5L / 100km.

There is a bit of a whine that I can hear at ~2,000rpm in 4th which will get higher in pitch if I drop it down to 3rd and the rpm will go upto ~2,500, but the galant did the same thing so I've thought nothing of it.

I'll have a look at all the hoses tomorrow to see if I can see any obvious leaks, are there any I should concentrate on, and are there any other quick/easy checks I can do?

This is annoying me a bit, it feels like I've downgraded and am driving my old 25 ST-R. :undecided

Nothing else I can think off at the moment, cheers for any help! /thankyou

[jb2815]

I've had a quick look, and found a bit of a hose split next to the one I tapped into for the boost gauge, doesn't look like it goes past the clamp but maybe.. whats this for?

The other photo is of this larger piping and hose with clamp here (forgive me for not knowing the exact names of things, I'm an electrician not a mechanic /notworthy )
When I got the car it was serviced by the local Mitsubishi dealership, I had a look under the bonnet a few days later and this clamp was completely loose as was the hose. Could this have cause any damage? The air filter housing was also not clamped up at the bottom as it wasn't lined up with the snorkel... made me re-think about taking it back to them in future..

[bradc]

You are best to first of all replace any split hoses, then take it to a dyno and see what it makes. It should be around 150-155kw at the wheels for a stock facelift auto.

The auto's do have very long gear ratios and feel a lot less frantic in each gear compared to a manual. Your auto legnum will also weigh about 90kg more than a manual galant.

[Turbo_Steve]

That split hose is the vacuum line for the brakes. I'd get that sorted immediately!

As brad says, an Auto estate is going feel a bit less edgy than a manual saloon.

However, if it's feeling like an STR, something definitely isn't right!

[elnevio]

All the figures you've quoted seem pretty fair.

Yes, the Legnum is heavier than the Galant, so will adversely affect acceleration.

The auto is heavier than the manual, so will affect acceleration.

The auto's gear ratios are longer than the manual's, so whilst acceleration is barely affected, it will feel like it.

Just realised you said you have a facelift auto. So perhaps the boost is a little low.

[jb2815]

Yeah, its probably a combination of all of those factors that makes it seem slower. I know it's faster than the STR but the galant felt like it was definately pulling while this one seems like its just accelerating.

Assuming there are no problems, then would a boost controller be something to try? I've read on here that stock boost levels can vary quite a bit so that might be something..

[Ryan]

http://clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31984

Haven't regretted it. :thumbsup:

[peter thomson]

The bov may be leaking if the boost has dropped a bit

[elnevio]

Make sure everything is working 100% before upping the boost. Otherwise you could be talking about "Wow! BANG! Ah...".

[Beastlee]

At the 6psi point I would say the boost solenoid isn't doing much. With my solenoid permanently open I was only getting wastgate pressure at 7psi. The car felt very sluggish whilst it was off, not just because of my normal 11-12psi. Even the inital throttle response doesn't feel the same for some bizzare reason.

[Turbo_Steve]

Thats because your boost solenoid will bleed UNTIL it reaches boost target, not after it when the wastgate is held open.

So with the solenoid stuck on passthrough, and a 5psi or 6psi actuator arm, you're looking at it starting to open a little at 3 or 4psi!

[jb2815]

I've had a bit of a look around this morning and there's all sorts of oil around. I've attached a couple of pictures, 1st pic point A there is a lot of buildup and point B is oil in liquid form that is sort of pooling, not dripping at all. Next pic is of the front turbo with oil around the left side of it.

I know the oil seals got changed about 50 days ago, but I don't think this is leftover from that.. especially since the oil in point B looks like reasonably fresh engine oil....

[Turbo_Steve]

???? Is that an external oil filter?

[jb2815]

???? Is that an external oil filter?

Yeah, that big white thing is the oil filter looking up

[Subaru ETA]

A - looks like oil out of the a/c compressor.

can really see the rest

[pbaron]

Has the cambelt been changed recently. My manual Galant VR4 was flat compared to the manual Legnum VR4 I had.

When I did the cambelt on the Galant I found that the timing was out one tooth on the crank, I think this happened when the belt was changed before I got it.

With the new belt fitted and the timing checked as correct the performance improved dramatically to match that of manual Legnum.

Something to check if the belt is due soon, and something to check if the belt was done recently.

Cheers

[jb2815]

Has the cambelt been changed recently. My manual Galant VR4 was flat compared to the manual Legnum VR4 I had.

When I did the cambelt on the Galant I found that the timing was out one tooth on the crank, I think this happened when the belt was changed before I got it.

With the new belt fitted and the timing checked as correct the performance improved dramatically to match that of manual Legnum.

Something to check if the belt is due soon, and something to check if the belt was done recently.

Cheers

From what I can tell is it was changed 7 years and 68,000km ago according to this...

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45628

So definately due for a new one anyway..!



The bov may be leaking if the boost has dropped a bit

It wasn't dropping yesterday, but I pulled the BOV off and gave it a bit of a wipe, a little bit of oil in the pipes, tried it today and it went up to 7psi then dropped back down to 5psi...

[jb2815]

pbaron,

So you would say that performance between a legnum and galant is the same if both are at an equal level of service and the transmissions are the same?

I reckon I'll have to wait until I get the timing belt and spark plugs done to see if that makes much difference. The ones in my galant were done straight away, so then the only difference will be the transmissions...

Has anyone else who has driven both types auto and manual on similar cars noticed much of a difference?

I have noticed the auto does get up to speed quite fast, it just doesn't FEEL like it is....

[bradc]

The manual will have around 7% more power to the wheels and a manual galant will be around 90kg lighter than an auto legnum, so yes there will be quite a big difference.

I maintain that you should get it dynoed to see how much power it has.

[pbaron]

For me it was subjective, I had a manual legnum that went really well, and a manual galant that went ok but was flat compared to the legnum. When the cambelt was replaced and the timing set right the galant was comparable to the legnum.

That said, I have two auto legnums at the moment in addition to the manual galant, the blue one goes like a scolded cat, it is running a manual boost controller and a 7202 cpu that I have flashed to cope with the raised boost and removed the fuel and speed cut.

On the other hand my Super is as flat as a pancake and I suspect timing is out on it. When I had the flashed 7202 in it and the boost cranked up it went better but was still flat and not willing to rev. I have all the bits to do the cambelt and water pump on it, I just need to get around to it. That and I need to either sort the brembo's on it or get rid of them.

As brad has said, you need to get it dyno'd to be able to conclusively make before and after comparissons.

Cheers

[jb2815]

Anyone know of a decent dyno place around lower NI region (even better in Palmerston North), and whats the approx cost..? I've seen 2wd ones on trademe for like $200 but I'm guessing it needs a 4wd setup..

[jb2815]

Ah ha! after a look through the forums, I turned on the car to let it idle and put my head under right next to the BOV. I can hear a whistling sound like it might be a leak! I couldn't feel anything obvious around the unit, I'll borrow some plumbers stuff to find air leaks when I get back to work.

Does air travel through it during normal operation under no load? If so its probably just that but hmmm. Would a continuously leaking unit cause general reduced performance? (Not just holding the boost at a set level)

I've seen a evo 6.5 TME one for sale with no picture, is this metal or plastic?

Cheers!

[AlanDITD]

the legnum one is plastic,

It should not leak at all its a recirc meaning all air is circulated back into the air inlet

It would explain why your boost pressure is low.

Best thing is to swap it for a known good one and see what results you get!

[Ryan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if you can hear air coming out of it then the BOV might be stuck open or partially open.

Damn, Alan beat me to it :)

[AlanDITD]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think if you can hear air coming out of it then the BOV might be stuck open or partially open.

Damn, Alan beat me to it :)


sowi

[jb2815]

Cool! I'll try and source a good one to try. Yeah I know the std one is plastic, just wondering if that evo 6.5 factory one was metal to replace mine with...

[Turbo_Steve]

That oil filter still doesn't look like it's in the right place, to me? Maybe its the photo...? Like it's got an external kit on?

And yes, it sounds like your DV ain't right.

[jb2815]

That oil filter still doesn't look like it's in the right place, to me? Maybe its the photo...? Like it's got an external kit on?

And yes, it sounds like your DV ain't right.

Really? Didn't take much notice of the oil filter, I'll try and get a photo up tomorrow from a better angle...

Has anyone got a good second hand factory bov sitting around they can sell me?

[Ryan]

Really? Didn't take much notice of the oil filter, I'll try and get a photo up tomorrow from a better angle...

Has anyone got a good second hand factory bov sitting around they can sell me?

I have one that you can have. I've just got to find it, I've moved and can't remember where I've put it.

[jb2815]

I have one that you can have. I've just got to find it, I've moved and can't remember where I've put it.

Awesome news, that would be much appreciated :2thumbsup

[Ryan]

Will have a look tomorrow... please drop me a PM to remind me as I'm flat tack this weekend and will forget otherwise.

[jb2815]

That oil filter still doesn't look like it's in the right place, to me? Maybe its the photo...? Like it's got an external kit on?

And yes, it sounds like your DV ain't right.

OK, here's another picture..

[Beastlee]

Looks normal to me :)

[Ryan]

Is quite a long filter though... kind of like the Amsoil ones. The stock ones are more stubby. :thinking2

[jb2815]

The local mitsubishi dealer put that one on when I took it in after I bought it. Supercheap auto flog those ones so that'll probably be the next one too when I get some better oil. They put 15w40 in it, is that what mitsubishi has said thats what the grade is to be?

Anyway I'll put some castrol edge 5w30 in next, the old car liked that.

[jb2815]

Pulled of BOV. Bunged up pipes and drove, overall effect no different. Beginning to think BOV is dodgy but not culprit. Will have to wait until cam belt and plugs etc replaced (around april) then I'll fork out for a metal evo 8/9 mr factory BOV as well.

Ruled out weight difference. Galant with the mrs and kids (and 30kg tools) in the car (total extra 130ish kgs) still kicks the auto legnums arse (with only myself)! When it gets a few things replaced in a couple months I'll think about it again, but at this stage I'm looking at the auto box VS manual.... hmmmmmmmmmm i'm sure everyone else's auto vr4 can't be this average otherwise there wouldn't be a website dedicated to them seeing as most of the UK cars are auto...

[Turbo_Steve]

I reckon your cam timing is off, or similar. It definitely sounds down on power.

[bradc]

Have you dyno'ed it yet?

[jb2815]

No, I'll just live with it until I get the cam belt and stuff done in a couple of months.