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steelie600
03-03-2010, 05:58 PM
does any one have the 2.0 flash cable (cant remember its real name) that i can hire or borrow??

Ive hatched a cunning plan!!

John TheAntique
04-03-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm pretty sure I've got one in the car but won't know until tomorrow. If no one else replies PM me your address Friday pm and I will stick it in the post.

steelie600
04-03-2010, 03:03 PM
cheers John much appreciated

Nutter_John
04-03-2010, 04:01 PM
didn't think yours was a op v2.0 cable John ?

My spare cable is with someone so I can't loan mine out , what you hatching anyway :D

steelie600
04-03-2010, 04:19 PM
now that would be telling, but it involves dynos, vr4's and altered shift patterns!!

TBH ive secured the loan of a dyno trailer from a friend in the motorsport industry, and i want to have a look see if you can alter the shift timings on the box, no reason why you cant after all its only a computer but needs research. If i cant borrow one ill have to stump up but for how long ill need it it doesnt really justify buying it

John TheAntique
04-03-2010, 04:26 PM
Mines the one thats got two plugs on the end. Is that the one?

Nutter_John
04-03-2010, 04:29 PM
couple of points to help you
your PFL ecu is not flashable , and the auto ecu is not readable via the OP cables , nor is anything known about the internal logic in the TCU

Is the dyno your matey got 4wd as I have only seen the trailered ones as 2wd

Nutter_John
04-03-2010, 04:30 PM
Mines the one thats got two plugs on the end. Is that the one?

both the 1.3 and 2.0 have two plugs , is the wire into the second block permantley attached , if so then it is a 1.3

steelie600
04-03-2010, 04:38 PM
couple of points to help you
your PFL ecu is not flashable , and the auto ecu is not readable via the OP cables , nor is anything known about the internal logic in the TCU

Is the dyno your matey got 4wd as I have only seen the trailered ones as 2wd

so a 7202 ecu not flashable eh????/notworthy /notworthy /notworthy :d :d

It is mate ive already had a look seems all supers have 7202 ecus, interesting about the at ecu ill have to look into that deeper, and yes the trailer is 4wd, i beleive it is one he has done himself with a normal dyno but built it into a trailer, it aint small its fitted into a artic trailer. So i need somewhere to home it for a couple of days as i cant have it at my house LOL

Nutter_John
04-03-2010, 05:12 PM
ah yeah I forgot yours is a almost super :p

good luck finding any info about the TCU programing as it is only needed for the VR4 and possible the 7 GTA

Thing is that it has fuzzy logic so you'll find it very hard to change the shift points unless yoiu disable the fuzzyness which will be a disassemble and rewrite of certain parts of the TCU

steelie600
04-03-2010, 05:17 PM
ah yeah I forgot yours is a almost super :p

good luck finding any info about the TCU programing as it is only needed for the VR4 and possible the 7 GTA

Thing is that it has fuzzy logic so you'll find it very hard to change the shift points unless yoiu disable the fuzzyness which will be a disassemble and rewrite of certain parts of the TCU

i have a few contacts into ecu programming so ill beat them with questions about it LOL, does anyone know if the mut II can activate the solenoids in the box or not??

oh and mines getting closer to a super it now has canards!!!!! just being blended in and painted now.

miller
04-03-2010, 05:21 PM
The Airtrek guys AFAIK have a uprated 'shift' map thats installed when they are flashed. Its all to do with valve pressure or something. A chap in NZ has documented it i think. let me see if i can dig out a link.

the suspicion is that there is a later TCU for our gearboxes that came out with the 7GTA and Airtrek etc etc

steelie600
04-03-2010, 05:29 PM
The Airtrek guys AFAIK have a uprated 'shift' map thats installed when they are flashed. Its all to do with valve pressure or something. A chap in NZ has documented it i think. let me see if i can dig out a link.

the suspicion is that there is a later TCU for our gearboxes that came out with the 7GTA and Airtrek etc etc


OOOOOO mike, i loves ya. I knew id heard of it on other cars and i was damned sure id heard of it on the gta's too so im sure it can be applied to the vr4. My main concern is i just want instant up and down shifts when in tip, cos when yer getting a wriggle on having to wait for the downshift can get the car unsettled in the corner.

Oh and im also gonna go flappy paddle with it too

miller
04-03-2010, 05:33 PM
Have a gander here first off, Scott Lowe is the chap in question. Now wether the uprated pressure came from the TCU or physical change on the box is something i need to confirm.

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=205007

miller
04-03-2010, 05:35 PM
dont know if this chap still has it for sale!

http://30-130.com/showthread.php?p=3067816

miller
04-03-2010, 05:38 PM
and this is the stuff i was originally looking for! This is the daddy of threads me thinks

http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflash/345918-looking-more-maps-80700010-def-13.html

steelie600
04-03-2010, 06:00 PM
/megawoot /megawoot

Just what im after Mike, And it seems we may be able to programme the tc to permanently lock when in tip too so we have a true semi automatic!!!!!

miller
04-03-2010, 06:04 PM
And it seems we may be able to programme the tc to permanently lock when in tip too so we have a true semi automatic!!!!!

How does that work above normal? Surely in TIP it stays in that gear regardles?

Are our TCU's flashable.......thats the next crux. I presume the Airtrek is. Wonder would it ship into the VR4?

hmmmm

steelie600
04-03-2010, 06:26 PM
yes the airtrek is flashable so is the gta, so i cant see a reason why the vr4 wont be either. When i said lock the tc btw, i meant just have it working like a clutch so it only slips when setting off and shifting gear other than that the engine is locked to the tranny. so more power is sent to wheels, gearbox temps will be lower. Looking at the last link Mike, the shift time (presure) and overlap is what we need to adjust for faster more positive changes. the locked tc is gonna be more useful for the trackdayer/ tarmac terrorist (me and you then mike!!)

Just out of interest is there a handling improvement having the one way clutch in the box or not as mine has now got the none owc box fitted from the owc box it used to have.

elnevio
04-03-2010, 06:30 PM
Might be worth speaking to Mark 4 regarding flappy paddle info: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30392&highlight=paddle :thumbsup:

VR4Kaos
04-03-2010, 06:43 PM
this sounds great especley the idea of changing gear intently or even quicker rather than that the deley, 2nd gear is a great brake when timed accratley /rally

steelie600
05-03-2010, 02:59 PM
check these badboys out Mike!!!!!

ianturbo
06-03-2010, 12:15 AM
Just get one with the right box in first place !!!:beatnik2: lol
looks like you got a real plan there Kev /GJ
ian

steelie600
06-03-2010, 02:58 AM
if we CAN programme the box as we want, we'll have the best of both worlds, manual and auto!!!

Gly
06-03-2010, 03:40 AM
the airtek and gta do not have a seperate trans ecu like we do,
its all coded into the main engine ecu,

and as mentioned earlier you cannot access the trans ecu in our car via obdII port

steelie600
06-03-2010, 04:18 AM
but would you agree it is still a computer, working on pre written code??

I say there must be a way, we must find it!! LOL

no such thing as impossible, just bloody hard

Gly
06-03-2010, 10:20 AM
yes, most likely,
but more like.....

pull the ecu from the car,
find out what chip it has,
pull the chip from ecu and socket it,
get a eprom reader/writer,
read off the program
reverse engineer the code,
find out what need to change,
rewrite if possible, etc etc.


not trying **** on your idea,
but its gonna be alot of time and money you need to commit for not alot of gain imo

steelie600
06-03-2010, 11:23 AM
Oh i know that, but i aint ever gonna sell my leggie too rare ysee. so ive got time on my side, LOL

I know a few ecu tuners personally so with a bit of help and tuition it can be done, but like you say its gonna take time/dollar

Turbo_Steve
06-03-2010, 04:22 PM
And experitse beyond belief!

As Gly said, there is the basic electronics aspect (identify the chip-type, turn it into a socketed fitting, and then source a supplier of blank PROMs to replace it with. Bear in mind mitsubishi may have stopped using these PROMs as nobody was making them any more. They may also have used up the entire worlds stock of them - Subaru did!)

Then you need to find a device that will read the PROM. Again, this may be easy, it may be hard.

THEN you need to identify what kind of processor the TCU is using. This will allow you to buy a dissasembler for that CPU (some are cheap, some cost £10,000's, especially if it's encrypted code).

THEN you need to see if you CAN decipher the code, and if you can then you can start changing the arrays in which the shift maps, temp compensation maps etc are stored.

Finally, you can then blow the modified software into your blank prom, fit it back in the TCU, fit the TCU back in the car and see if you managed to change the right table (which is a lot of guess work, and false starts).

Then rinse and repeat until the TCU is how you like it.

Nobody's done it because it's such an epic ball-ache, and there are so very very many ifs.

And, of course, at the end of it you'e likely to discover that Mitsubishi used 4 or 5 different TCUs, all with totally different designs. They used 3 ECUS, and the engines are broadly similar - we're already aware of several variations in gearbox design.

If you're still prepared to carry on, and keep sharing your results, in the face of that kind of adversity, then please please do....it'll be of benefit to all of us!

But I think you're going into this perhaps a little underinformed.

steelie600
06-03-2010, 07:26 PM
I know what your saying steve, but one thing i have now is time so ill batter tinternet till i understand and Ill crack it eventually.

Nutter_John
06-03-2010, 10:02 PM
Speaking to ECU tuner's will get you know where ,how do I know cos it has nothing to do with ecu tuning . This is pure old fashin hardware hacking with some software decomplie .

Time and internet will get you nothing other than even more confussed , I would put money on the main ecu in the TCU being an internal part code with no outisde usage , Mitsubiishi also designed electronics so they did not even have to buy in ECU's ..

You may think I'm trying to poor water on your fire , well I am only to save you pain , both myself and KA have been here when doing the upgrades to the PFL ecu and it is a lot of dead ends and many hours of reading code etc ( how is you assembler programing ? )

steelie600
07-03-2010, 07:30 PM
err poor to dire LOL

No harm in trying and learning new skills on the way is there!! If you wanna help john youre more than welcome. Nothing will get done yet as ive gotta buy the cable and evoscan first and also i need to get the right ecu for the box first so i can atleast drive the bloody thing. ive not had a car for a month now!!

kinkyafro
07-03-2010, 11:24 PM
Your first step is open up a TCU and see whats in there - suggest you post a few snaps to get some input...

Turbo_Steve
07-03-2010, 11:27 PM
Cool: You need to start here, then:
http://www.6502asm.com/


This is the assembly language equivalent to "changing a headlight bulb" for a car mechanic.



ive gotta buy the cable and evoscan first

Don't see why: we've already explained that you can't use it to communicate with the TCU: it's not on the same comms bus. In fact I don't think the TCU is on ANY bus!?

The first thing you need to do is pull out the TCU, open it up and slap some pics up for the experts to check out: chipsets major components etc

Ryan
07-03-2010, 11:53 PM
uploaded/50107/1268002425.jpg

steelie600
08-03-2010, 02:54 AM
Don't see why: we've already explained that you can't use it to communicate with the TCU: it's not on the same comms bus. In fact I don't think the TCU is on ANY bus!?

The first thing you need to do is pull out the TCU, open it up and slap some pics up for the experts to check out: chipsets major components etc


i want the cable so i can re map engine ecu first!!! ill take high res pics tomorrow of tcu

Turbo_Steve
08-03-2010, 09:01 AM
Coolio. Yours is definitely a 7202, then? Lucky fella :)

Ryan - What?

steelie600
08-03-2010, 02:42 PM
right then top to bottom A/T ecu this is the part number for a pfl with owc gearbox,

Loook what we got here then!!!!!

layout of the pcb front and rear

a/t ecu on the left and engine ecu on the right

part number of a pfl auto 7202 ecu

and finally WHO'S THE DADDY!!!!

Nutter_John
08-03-2010, 03:36 PM
The Auto ecu is based on the 7202f process which is known , so you should be able to force the ecu into bootstrap mode and reflash it - once you have worked out the contents of it's rom

steelie600
08-03-2010, 03:45 PM
Goody good!! off to work out how to do that then LOL

Turbo_Steve
08-03-2010, 04:43 PM
!!!!! I wasn't expecting to see that!

Thats a stupendous amount of processing power to run a gearbox LOL!




So does anyone know what the PFL TCU looks like inside? Anyone got one they would be willing to "unsleeve".


Thanks for the pics, Steelie, that's VERY interesting.

Nutter_John
08-03-2010, 04:47 PM
Doesn't supprise me Steve , they are cheap processors and for Mitsi to buy 100,000 of them and use them for anything and everything means the cost to develop drops by a lot

I wonder if the PFL TCu has the 7201 processor in it ?

steelie600
08-03-2010, 04:57 PM
!!!!! I wasn't expecting to see that!

Thats a stupendous amount of processing power to run a gearbox LOL!




So does anyone know what the PFL TCU looks like inside? Anyone got one they would be willing to "unsleeve".


Thanks for the pics, Steelie, that's VERY interesting.

Ill do it when i get the matching one for my new box. pfl non owc. and ill happily use this pfl owc one as a test mule as its of no use to me anymore, (unless someone else wants it??)

steelie600
11-03-2010, 08:10 PM
I wonder if the PFL TCu has the 7201 processor in it ?


hmmmmm let me see!!!!

kinkyafro
11-03-2010, 11:41 PM
flashable eprom on that 7201 - so getting the contents off is doable... can someone explain the benefits to me as the effort involved in understanding it is pretty significant...

bottom line if someone gets a pfl ecu to me that they don't mind being trashed I'll post the rom contents up...

steelie600
11-03-2010, 11:50 PM
pm me your details kinky, ill send you the other ecu ive got 7202 ecu off a pfl with owc

Turbo_Steve
11-03-2010, 11:58 PM
Benefits are:

Higher Stall rpm (for evil Diff destroying launches)
Harder Shifts available in "fuzzy" mode, less fuzzy influence in Tip mode, even harder shifts - much more immediate response.
TC Lock threshold adjust - faster throttle response, better fuel economy, less wasted power. Potential to ruin the smoooothness, though, if not done just right.

I'm guessing it works the gearbox and fluid a lot harder (I'd definitely want to change my wave spring first!) but the later cars shift faster and harder, so it seems a bonus all round to me. Certainly the Airtrek's gearbox feels more responsive!

kinkyafro
12-03-2010, 12:43 AM
pm me your details kinky, ill send you the other ecu ive got 7202 ecu off a pfl with owc

PM Sent :)

steelie600
12-03-2010, 01:01 AM
steve if the tc is locked its not gonna work the fluid half as hard so i reckon, the box will run cooler

Turbo_Steve
12-03-2010, 08:57 AM
I know - I was referring to the harder shifts and stall speed.
If anything, it's more likely to increase the wear on the TC locking clutch (I assume it has one). But this really isn't likely to be an issue, as far as I can see.

Rossco Type-S
04-04-2010, 02:13 AM
the airtek and gta do not have a seperate trans ecu like we do,
its all coded into the main engine ecu,

and as mentioned earlier you cannot access the trans ecu in our car via obdII port

Not quite true. The Airtrek has one ECU. The GT-A has a separate trans ECU.

It is quite amazing the improvements that can be had from reflashing the transmission settings in an Airtrek

Rossco Type-S
04-04-2010, 02:22 AM
Benefits are:

Higher Stall rpm (for evil Diff destroying launches)
Harder Shifts available in "fuzzy" mode, less fuzzy influence in Tip mode, even harder shifts - much more immediate response.
TC Lock threshold adjust - faster throttle response, better fuel economy, less wasted power. Potential to ruin the smoooothness, though, if not done just right.

I'm guessing it works the gearbox and fluid a lot harder (I'd definitely want to change my wave spring first!) but the later cars shift faster and harder, so it seems a bonus all round to me. Certainly the Airtrek's gearbox feels more responsive!

In an airtrek you can certaintly adjust all of the above.

Airtreks go to TC lock much earlier which is good and bad. Its good for around town, but terrible for hills as it feels like a CVT as you stay in one gear but the revs go +/- 500 or so as the TC goes in and out of lock-up. When I had my Airtrek reflashed I had the TC lock-up threshold increased slightly for when it is under load as there are a lot of hills in my area. Gear shifts under load can be made neck-snappingly fast.

These things can also be done manually go to EvolutionM.net and seach for posts by EvoAir. He is the guy who did my tuning - he did his manually before he found out it could be done by reflash. I think this is the relevant thread:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/other-cars/294314-my-airtrek-turbo-gt3540r-4.html