Upgrade 2002 Galant 2.5 v6 (EA5A) front single-pot calipers to twin-pots?

[NU51]

Hi gents,

As it stands, my 2002 Galant 2.5 v6 Elegance (EA5A) has single-pot front calipers and 4 stud 275mm diameter discs.

It's in need of new front discs/pads so I thought before I go about ordering parts and doing the job I'd ask if it's a feasible 'bolt on' job to
upgrade the front single-pot calipers to twin-pot calipers.

From trawling the forums here, I've got the impression that this may be a simple caliper swap, but would much prefer clarity on the issue before orderring parts.

Why go to the trouble of changing calipers? Well, there's no Ferodo DS2500 pad pattern available for the single pot calipers but (as VR4 owners will know) there is for the Evo 1-3 and VR4 twin pot calipers. I'm hoping to be able to have twin-pot calipers with Ferodo DS2500 pads and National 8 slot grooved discs (as recommended within the forums).

Being that it's an EA5A (facelift) will the calipers from an Evo 1-3 or VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v (E84A) fit without having to also change disc stud pattern from 4 to 5 OR am I way off the mark (are the caliper mounting holes wider/shorter between the EA5A facelift and Evo 1-3 or VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v E84A)?

If the Evo 1-3 or VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v (E84A) caliper is the correct solution...

i. is this a straight forward caliper swap and will I also need the caliper cradle/arm from an Evo 1-3 / VR4?

ii. does anybody out there know what the mounting hole distances are for 'caliper to caliper cradle/arm'
and also 'caliper cradle arm to hub carrier' on the VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v (E84A) and/or Evo 1-3 and on the non VR4 Galant 2.5 v6 (EA5A)?

iii. I know the Ferodo DS2500 pad part # FCP765H is identical for Evo 1-3 & VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v (E84A) calipers and the National Discs standard replacement part # NBD586 is also identical for Evo 1-3 & VR-4 2.0 V6 Turbo 24v (E84A) 275mm diameter discs but the National Discs standard replacement part # for the 275mm diameter discs of the non VR4 Galant 2.5 v6 (EA5A) is NBD1134.
Looking at the National Discs pdf doc, the only difference between the discs is that the NBD586 is 45mm deep and the NBD1134 is 43mm deep,
or am I missing something (like the 4 stud pattern dimensions being different)?
So do I order the VR-4 NBD586 discs or non VR-4 NBD1134 discs if fitting the Evo 1-3 / VR-4 twin-pot calipers?
(I do however know that the part # for the performance upgrade 8 slot grooved discs will actually be PDB586G for the Evo 1-3 discs).

If however I am way off the mark, can somebody please advise which calipers/discs/pads I should be looking at.

Many thanks for your help,
Mark

[ritch_w]

PSBarnham was the first to do this and I did this last year when I had a V6.

use search and you should find the reads with info ;)

[swinks]

Don't think calipers from Evo up to 5th gen will fit. IIRC They have same mounting bolts distance as pre-facelift VR4 (approx. 140mm).

You have facelift Galant, hence 158mm distance between caliper mounting bolts. Maybe you don't know, but alongside 1 piston calipers in Galant n/a were in use also 2 piston calipers. Simply source facelift Galant n/a with those calipers. Also you can swap your calipers p&p with any 2 pot calipers from facelift Galant/Legnum VR4.
But IMHO, there won't be any noticeable improvement in breaking, you still will be using same size discs and pads. Actually you would do better investing money on quality discs and pads.

[swinks]

Have forgotten that:
Main reason why Galant owners swapping 1-piston calipers to 2 piston is because they have pre-facelift calipers (140mm mount distance), and running ridiculously small discs (256mm). Hence, with that calipers they can't use bigger front discs (276mm).
BUT...You have already bigger discs.
If you think even bigger (i.e. 294mm from VR4, or E8xx) you should consider change 4 stud hubs into 5-stud ones. Otherwise there's no way you can have bigger than actual discs.

[VR4WGN]

um AFAIK you will need to change to 5 stud a si dont think the 4stud has a large disc anyhow!! and if changing to 5 stud then you can run either PFL or FL hubs(FL=Brembo bolt pattern)

if it was a 5 stud then it wud be lesser hassle but this IS a big job,expecially the rear being so fiddly lol
good luck

[psbarham]

peice of piss job,

you have a facelift car so you need the discs and calipers from a facelift vr4, and then you have to redrill the discs to a 4 stud pattern (10 mins per side) bolt it all together and bleed the system, and hey presto roberts your mothers brother.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17290&highlight=brakes

[NU51]

ahhh....
thanks to swinks I see the evo 1-3 & pre-facelift VR4 twin-pot calipers (140mm mounting distance) are out of the question due to my facelift 'non VR4' single-pot calipers having a 158mm mounting distance.

so am i correct in deducing that because the facelift VR4 twin-pot calipers (158mm mounting distance) require the 294mm diameter discs that these are also out of the question due to my facelift 'non VR4' only having 275mm discs?

so that would leave the twin-pot calipers from a 'non VR4' facelift as the only option because they were used with 275mm discs? can anybody confirm that the 'non VR4' facelift twin-pot calipers have a 158mm mounting distance and are used with 275mm diameter discs and whether these calipers can accept Ferodo DS2500 pads (or just advise the pad pattern code from the likes of Ferodo/Mintex/EBC)?

the only reason I'm looking at a twin-pot upgrade is that there's more performance pad options for these. there's not many performance pad options for the single-pot calipers.

thx guys

[NU51]

thx psbarham :happy:
but I don't have the confidence in my abilities to re-drill the 5-stud 294mm discs to a 4-stud pattern. I was not aware this is possible so it is however something I may have to give extra thought to (and is a much preferable option than opting for the 4-stud to 5-stud hub upgrade because i want to retain the standard momo wheels).

[psbarham]

its really easy to do. you just use the stock disc as a hole template.

[bradc]

You could get an engineering shop to do it for you.

I think from memory that some JDM 2.4 GDI facelifts came with twin piston calipers and the same 275mm discs, I'm unsure if the UK spec 2.4 GDI's had twin pot or single.

[swinks]

Yes, 2-pot calipers from Galant n/a and VR4 are the same (in fact 158mm, often called 160mm). In your case is just p&p swap.
Due to discs size, the only limitation is hub stud pattern. There's no bigger discs on the market than 276mm designed for 4 stud hubs. Pads are the same. Fell free to use any performance pads.:) For you search for calipers from Galant Sport would be the easiest option. They were 2-pot with 158mm mount distance regardless pre or facelift (1997-2003). Also as Brad pointed, Galants 2.4 GDI have ones for sure.

Eermm... hold on! Am I right, that there's no difference in pads used in 1-pot and 2-pot calipers. I can't recall any catalogue data that states two different pads for Galants (pre-facelift and facelift). Just disc size matters restricted by 140mm mounting distance. Please correct this someone who knows more.

[swinks]

For discs 294mm (VR4's) wheels size 16" is minimum. Pointing that out, because Galant n/a stock is 15".

[NU51]

the Galant Elegance has the 16" momo wheels so i should be ok with 294mm discs. although a good idea i am concerned with re-drilling the 294mm 5-stud to a 4-stud pattern tho, so would prefer to mate a twin-pot 158mm (160mm) caliper with the standard 4-stud pattern 276mm discs if such a caliper definitely exists.

[Johnny_Cashed]

The Galant elegance has 17" sport (team dynamics) alloys.

[NU51]

Thanks Johnny_Cashed, I stand corrected. They are in fact 17". I thought they were momo.

[NU51]

I think there's definitely a pad pattern difference between the single and twin pot facelift 'non VR4' calipers because the OE part # of my single-pot pad is MR527675 (measuring 144.8 x 54.8 x 15.9) and when I emailed a picture of this pad pattern to my mitsu dealer they confirmed it as the MR527675 that they last fitted to my car.

This pad pattern equates to EBC redstuff part # DP31614C available for both:
Galant/2.5 (EA5)/99-2003 and Galant/2.4/99-2004

http://www.ebcbrakesdirect.com/car/parts_pad.asp?part=pad&make=MITSUBISHI&model=Galant&year=2.5+%28EA5%29+%2899-2003%29

What is interesting is that the EBC website also lists part # DP3954C (redstuff) for both the Galant/2.5 (EA5)/99-2003 and Galant/2.4/99-2004.

So I'm inclined to think that this may very well be the pad pattern for facelift 'non VR4' 2.5 v6 Galants and 2.4 GDI Galants (thanks bradc) that have the twin-pot calipers because this pad pattern is also listed by EBC for the VR4 & Evo 1-5.

And looking at the Ferodo DS2500 pads listed by Camskill, pad pattern FCP765H is listed for the VR4 & Evo 1-5.

So, it looks like i need to start hunting for a pair of twin-pots from a facelift 'non VR4' Galant. Are there any facelift 'non VR4' Galant owners out there with these twin-pot calipers who can confirm if my pad pattern findings are correct and that the caliper mounting is 158mm-160mm???

[bradc]

The mounting on all facelifts will be 160mm

[NU51]

hi gents,
armed with the info you guys have given me so far :thumbsup: .....

i trawled the net and it looks like i've found the part #s of the 158/160mm mounting front twin-pot calipers used by all facelift Galants/Legnums (both VR4 and non VR4):
Front Left = MR249964
Front Right = MR249965

http://www.mitsuwiki.org/Galant_EA0_Bremsen

I googled the above part #s and found a pdf file for common Evo 5 parts and the above are also listed in that, and a couple of other pages on the net appear to confirm they're the same part #s for all Evo 4/5/6/9 fitted with non Brembo's.

http://homepage1.nifty.com/naiad/Automobile/Galant/Data/BRAKE-TUNE.htm

http://www.clarkmotorsport.net/cart/department_single.asp?productid=1812&manid=45&componentgrouptagid=Brakes&componenttagid=caliper

http://www.reparts.co.jp/parts/detail/?NO=08030785
(used google translate to make readable :happy: )

this should make it somewhat easier in sourcing a pair of suitable calipers.

[NU51]

re suitable front discs:

because it appears that the 'non VR4' facelift Galants fitted with the twin-pot calipers only had 4-stud 276mm discs fitted, do i correctly presume that it would therefore be ok to use the standard 4-stud 276mm diameter discs with these twin-pot calipers on my car (i.e. not having to buy 5-stud 294mm diameter discs and then redrill them for a 4-stud fitting)?

having said that, because I am wanting to fit National Brake discs 8 slot groove's which I think are a 'non returnable' item (possibly due to the performance slotted discs being made to order) what i may do out of interest however is contact National Brake discs and enquire if they can supply the 294mm 8 slot groove discs (PDB978G) but with the 4-stud pattern of the 276mm standard NBD1134 discs rather than the 5-stud pattern of the PDB978G. it's worth a try to get slightly larger diameter discs without me redrilling.

[bradc]

Replying to post 18, yes all EVO 4-9 non brembo equipped cars have the same calipers.

Then to post 19, on a VR-4 the pad touches the entire 294mm disc, so if you ran a smaller disc then quite a bit of the pad would surely be in mid air with no disc to touch!

[NU51]

thx bradc,

re the pad touching all of the 294mm disc: that's a perfectly valid point :scholar: .

it may be best if I wait to see if anybody with a facelift 'non VR4' fitted with the 4-stud 275mm discs and twin-pot 158mm calipers comes along to confirm that this combo was in fact used.

then again, i could just source some used twin-pot 158mm calipers with old pads and see how the pads sit against the 275mm disc and if there is pad overhang forget it as a feasible upgrade and re-sell the calipers, negating purchasing a caliper rebuild kit and expensive new pads.

have submitted an enquiry to National Brake Discs re post 19 so /Hmmm will be interesting to see what feedback I get.

[VR4WGN]

my Mivec conversion is a 4stud facelift with FL hubs and twin pot fornts,iv just converted it to 5stud tho...i will measure up for you this morning and post up this avo,if thats ok

[NU51]

thx VR4WGN :thumbsup: that would be great.
errrm ... not for wanting to sound dumb (but obviously i am going to come across as /dunce ) does FL hubs mean Facelift Hubs?

[bradc]

yes :)

[elnevio]

I don't know the size of the RVR's discs. They're about 25mm or so smaller than the VR-4 ones, but take the same pads. And the whole pad surface is definitely used. I changed them a fortnight ago.

[swinks]

Then to post 19, on a VR-4 the pad touches the entire 294mm disc, so if you ran a smaller disc then quite a bit of the pad would surely be in mid air with no disc to touch!

Brad, with all respect... bo***cks.
Hub carriers and calipers are the same in FL Galant n/a and facelift VR4. Pads are the same and are sitting nicely on discs regardless it's 276mm or 294mm.

[bradc]

That was more theorising on my part but of the caliper is the same and the pad is the same, then surely running a different sized disc would mean that for one size of disc it isn't optimal and isn't going to contact the full face?

[VR4WGN]

ok guys the Facelift 2.4 4 stud i converted has Front Discs at roughly 255 and the front Caliper bolt hole roughly 158. the rear GET THIS is 262 and the brake holes are 138.

again thes eare near ok so give or take..,cant believe the rear is bigger than the front tho

[fuel]

its common for rears to be larger - the E84A Galant VR-4 has 276mm up front and 284mm at the rear - both vented too. Often why the rear is larger is because there is an internal drum shoe for the handbrake which takes up a bit of room.

you'll find the rear 266's will be solid though compared to the front 256's vented.

[NU51]

Thx VR4WGN,
So the 158mm twin-pots are fine with 255mm discs....
that's weird but is good news (if there's no pad overhang like bradc was quite rightly concerned about).
Will mean they should be ok with 276mm discs then.

[NU51]

Good News guys :d

I just got off the phone with the guy at National Brake Discs who designs all their discs
(explained the single-pot to twin-pot conversion I am wanting to achieve)
and because the 'performance' discs are a made to order item (as i suspected)....

they can supply a set of PBD978G 8 slot groove performance discs
(which are the correct 294mm diameter 5-stud fitting pattern 8 slot performance disc version of the NBD978 disc for facelift VR4 and Evo 4)
BUT (this is the cool bit) can supply them with the 4-stud pattern from the NBD1134 disc (correct 275mm disc for 'non VR4' facelift 2.5v6 Galants).

http://www.national-auto.co.uk/cata.htm

How cool is that?! No need for me to redrill or have an engineering shop redrill brand spanking new PBD978G discs!

:thumbsup: to National Brake Discs

(naturally, I will have to make sure this request is relayed correctly by whichever motor factor company
I use to order the discs for me coz members of the public cannot order directly from National Brake Discs)

So.... next step .... any of you guys know of a motor factors company that give a good deal to Club VR-4 members when ordering a National Brake Discs / Ferodo DS2500 combo?

[VR4WGN]

well done man,youv done well then with the knowledge and advice given,good ups for you rsearching,i woulda asked lol,too lazy.. hope you come rite but you HAVETO give detailed pics lol

[NU51]

thx VR4WGN. but ..... really it should be I thanking you guys coz if it weren't for you guys I'd NEVER have gotten this far so a HUGE /thankyou to everyone who's given their input /notworthy

my plan of attack now is to source some used facelift twin-pot calipers (hopefully with used pads included too) and pop em on with the current 275mm discs in place as a quick test to confirm they're ok with the 275mm discs (just in case I need to buy standard 275mm discs if National Brakes can't do the 'custom' order in the future).

if everything is sweet at that point i'll order the 294mm 'custom' discs from National Brakes and some Ferodo DS2500 pads and a caliper rebuild kit from Camskill and give the calipers a good service and paint while waiting for the discs to arrive.

of course, if all goes well, I'll take pix and do a separate writeup detailing the upgrade in case other peeps come along and are interested in performing the same upgrade.

who knows, if plenty of other peeps out there show interest in the upgrade, we may be able to convince National Brakes to list this 'upgrade' disc in their catalogue under a unique part # (as a performance only disc option) so as to make the ordering of it easier to others. I did tell them about Club VR4 and that the common consensus on CVR4 is that the factory brakes are terrible items, explaining that others may come along in the future with the same requirement. i've got the email address of 1 of their guys so if the upgrade is a success I'll start a 'poll' (of sorts) on here by means of hopefully convincing National Discs to list the 'upgrade' disc.

[NU51]

am now going to begin researching phase 2 - suspension:
Bilstein B12 vs Coilovers.
(but will start a separate thread for that of course)

you wouldn't think I was considering selling the Galant late last year would you?! :shocked:

[Johnny_Cashed]

Watching with interest, I'm sure there's a reason why not but if you've got facelift carriers and you can get a larger disc would it not be possible to put brembos on there?

[NU51]

hi Johnny_Cashed,

well I'm by no means knowledgeable enough re mechanics (as others will have no doubt realised by now :upsidedow ) to make a justified comment on a Brembo conversion for the 4-stud facelift hub carriers, but it may be possible with a bit more research.

I think you'd be getting into the realms of caliper/wheel 'offset' (is something I know absolutely nothing about) with the Brembo conversion too. And would such a costly upgrade (and headache :dizzy2: ) be justifiable on a non VR4 car? Could it also be a case of the 4-stud pattern not being strong/safe enough to handle the stopping power of a 320mm Brembo solution (is 1 for somebody more knowledgeable to chip in with I think).

And, given the cost of purchasing used Brembo's (plus a caliper rebuild kit) together with 4-stud pattern 320mm discs (if National Brakes can supply them) and pads as a whole package, could it be more advantageous (and less headache) to purchase a 6-pot caliper/disc kit from the likes of K-sport?

Of course .... the Brembo solution would look very cool /yes

Personally, I'm sure I'll be more than happy if my proposed upgrade solution works because my car will never see a track and I'll definitely be able to retain the standard 17" wheels which i think are really nice. Oh, and not only are the non VR4 cars less powerful but they're also a lump lighter than the VR4's.

At the end of the day... IMHO it's a matter of how deep your pockets are and how much you want out of the car. With the cash saved from a 'non Brembo' conversion I'm sure I could buy some 1/2 decent front & rear anti-roll/sway bars. My next step is looking into improving the wollowy standard suspension. It's all cash and my pockets have to extend to parts for motorbike too so I have to stop somewhere :whistle:

[bradc]

There really is no need to go with brembo's, I've had VR-4 calipers and discs on my ST-R for a few years now and have never been able to outdrive them. The ST-R is a V6 with 175hp (more than the uk ones) and has 4wd so quite a bit heavier.

I think you'll be able to find a facelift twin piston VR-4 caliper fairly easily though, quite a few people have upgraded to brembo's and not that many people want them!

[Nick Mann]

I have recently broken a V6 Sport, that I *think* had twin pot calipers. The pads and discs are like new, and I'm sure I still have the calipers kicking around too.

I'll check it out on monday.

Where abouts are you? Do you want to come and have a look?

[Nick Mann]

Brad - plenty of people in the UK have struggled to find a suitable combination of discs/fluid/pads to cope with trackdays. I am one of them. Brembos has been that solution for me. I have only once cooked uprated standard VR4 brakes on the road once though.

[bradc]

Yes but you have a VR-4. Try out driving VR-4 brakes on an n/a V6!

[Nick Mann]

Ah - okay! I see your point. That would be more tricky! :D

[NU51]

Hi Nick,
I'm all the way up north but if they're the 158mm twin-pots then I'm defo interested.
I've PM'd you.
cheers