TCL ASC AYC Would you bother?

[Kryton]

I have spent a few hours now searching through the forum, reading up on TCL & ASC. I can see that some people like it, others hate it & 99% of face lifts don't have it (maybe even 100%?). I am contemplating retro fitting it to my car & just wondered if anyone has done this? I can see that lots of people have removed it & only one post questioning fitting it, but with no further info. Firstly, could someone point me in the right if I have missed the info & secondly, if you were buying a new VR4 today, would you specify it as an option (bearing in mind you can switch the TCL off)?

Thanking you in anticipation. (PS I have AYC already if this would sway any decisions)

[bradc]

From May 2000 onwards it was an option on auto VR-4's.

I wouldn't buy it as an option and I definitely wouldn't retrofit it! In all the years that I've had Legnums, I've never found a need for traction control. With all 4 wheels being driven and AYC I think it would be very difficult to think of an actual reason. From what I see when people get completely stuck in snow and stuff they just turn it off anyway!

[fluffnik]

AYC kinda rocks but I think the TCL is pretty much redundant.

AYC makes a big nose heavy car behave like a smaller better balanced one in most of the circumstances where being a big nose heavy car could be embarrassing, TCL as bradc suggests is just something that needs turned off in the snow.

[GalantOnly]

You'll need to take the car down to pieces to be able to retrofit it... So, don't even consider doing it...:)

[Turbo_Steve]

The TCL annoys the heck out of me! It might come in handy if the car was running 200bhp more, but as it stands it just results in horrific understeer when the AYC would be doing what it does to make you look cool.

The ASC, however, is a different kettle of fish, and it seems a shame to have to sacrifice it to remove the TCL. The ASC has only once intervened for me, and it was on a diesel-slick roundabout. I made it round with some very minor bodywork damage. The Focus behind me ended up in the hedge. The BMW behind him ended up in the Focus.

Now admittedly I may have been the only person to decide to power-on-through, and the only one with a 4WD car, but the TCL was off, the AYC went mental, and as I left-footed the brake, the front went curiously heavy, which I can only assume was the ASC.

[Nutter_John]

Our flashed Ecu's can disable TCL without ever having to press the button again :)

[Beastlee]

John, how about reversing the switch setting :)

[bradc]

Whenever I'm driving a VR-4 with ASC it is normally a game to see how often you can get it to kick in :)

On gravel it is certainly very good, you can feel it activating the brakes individually and keeping it in line. It doesn't really help at all to reduce understeer but if the back kicks out the system is very good at bringing it back in line.

One thing I used to do in my COTY just about everyday was coming down my driveway, grab a lot of lock all of a sudden and floor it, then swing the wheel back to centre and lift off the throttle. The car would amazingly bring itself back in line every time with freakish accuracy.

TCL is completely useless though :)

[Beastlee]

I needed the ASC the other day. Was following a BMW 135i Convertible and he swung really wide before chucking it round a blind right hander. Not wanting to be shown up I hugged the kerb and swung it round only to be greeted by a Hummer coming the other way a little too far over to my side. I lifted off and spun the wheel which left the back swinging out....only for a split second though as the ASC worked it's magic and we carried on like nothing had happened :)

[wintertidenz]

I've found that the ASC does help in situations where you take the corners just a bit too fast... AYC is going nuts (3 bars), the back is starting to kick out, and then the ASC snaps the car back in line to where it should be.
However if you're not used to it, it can really catch you out when you're trying to correct, and you end up over-correcting due to the ASC...

[kinkyafro]

John, how about reversing the switch setting :)

Not an option I'm afraid we can only disable it...

I think Foxdie was looking at some kind of switching circuit arrangement to switch it off immediately after the car is started. Dunno how far he took it though.

[Kryton]

Yeah I had seen that mentioned over several other threads. So general consensus is that if I can be bothered to go to the hassle, its worth fitting just for the ASC & then permanently disabling the TCL?

[bradc]

It isn't worth trying to fit.

When Mitsi had to do the recall on the ASC system and replace all the piping it took them something like 10-15 hours per car. You have to replace all of the AYC loom as well and add various components. I reckon it would be 50 hours of work at the minimum. It is a complete waste of time.

[Turbo_Steve]

I wonder if the "Not Worth it" argument would hold from your hospital bed after that snow-related accident?

There's a lot more effort involved in, say, fitting and mapping an aftermarket ECU, but people consider that "worth it".

[bradc]

No there isn't. With an aftermarket ecu the most difficult part is connecting 60 or so wires into it. Tuning is relatively easy once you've done a few cars and have the hang of things.

Retrofitting something like this will require the entire car to be rebuilt.

[Nick Mann]

At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, I like AYC but don't like ASC or TCL. I would much rather have a car without the ASC and TCL. Each to their own.

[Turbo_Steve]

No there isn't. With an aftermarket ecu the most difficult part is connecting 60 or so wires into it. Tuning is relatively easy once you've done a few cars and have the hang of things.

Retrofitting something like this will require the entire car to be rebuilt.

My point is that the relative pay-off for the time invested is proportional, Brad.

15hrs or so for 50bhp or so (UK bhp) fitted and mapped, maybe a few hours saved on journeys for the life of the car.

50-70hrs for a complete ASC system fit and configure, maybe save..ohh..30-40years of not being dead?

[mattnz]

If you're that worried about not being dead, might want to stop driving around in a 10 year old car tbh

[Kryton]

Is there any chace someone could set up a poll for would you have asc yes or no? I know it will take a while (but wasn't expecting it to take quite that long) + if it will, I will probably leave it til those lovely long winter nights before tackling it, but all I really want to know is, if someone offered to fit it to your car for free, would you say yes or not. I don't mind putting the effort in but its just a case of if its likely to make any difference to the driving of it. The evos I've had have been rs models so not even had abs so I don't miss it, but I also don't know how benificial it would be

[Nutter_John]

i will add a poll to this thread

[miller]

if your relying on ASC or TCL to save your life then maybe its time to stop driving :speechles


:happy: :happy:

[Kieran]

I'm in the minority. If I were to purchase another VR-4, I'd insist on all three systems. I think they're all of great value.

I feel that TCL is much maligned; I posted about my experiences of it in the link below (nearly five years ago now!!) after I first got Ariadne. Having reviewed the post, I find it still reflects my thoughts on the matter.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112784&postcount=2

[Turbo_Steve]

If you're that worried about not being dead, might want to stop driving around in a 10 year old car tbh

Yes, the two points are completely the same.
In fact, why not save weight by removing the crashbars...the seatbelts.....and wow, I can really economise by buying the cheapest nastiest brakepads and tyres: it's a much smaller exaggeration after all.


if your relying on ASC or TCL to save your life then maybe its time to stop driving
And ever more tempting proposition.

Are you relying on your seatbelt to save yours? How about the crashbar? The safety glass (for not turning into shards and cutting you to ribbons)? The quality of your tyres?

Surely it amounts to the same thing?

[Kryton]

i will add a poll to this thread

Thanks

[mattnz]

Yes, the two points are completely the same.
In fact, why not save weight by removing the crashbars...the seatbelts.....and wow, I can really economise by buying the cheapest nastiest brakepads and tyres: it's a much smaller exaggeration after all.

Not really, you're just strawmanning what I said.

I would not put in 40-50 hours of work to very marginally increase the safety of a car when I could get a newer car and get a much better result. I would, however, get good brake pads, and keep crash bars, as those do not cost much, and greatly increase the safety of the vehicle.

[JTG]

I have voted based on my experience with my Lexus as I haven't had a VR4 with stability control, so that would be a huge yes. Saved me once (maybe twice) before.

I am curious as to how the stability control works alongside the AYC though, they have relatively similar jobs do they not?

[Turbo_Steve]

Yes.....and no. I can't quite get my head around it myself, but at some point an ECU makes a decision based on steering angle vs trajectory vs available torque differential and decides whether altering the Yaw moment will allow it to meet that target. If insufficient torque is available to correct, I guess the ASC (whihch Mitsubishi invented...did you know?) comes into play. That's my understanding, anyway (and feels like what the car is doing).


when I could get a newer car and get a much better result

Interesting suggestion. The newer car could be a diesel too: these days VR4 money will get you a 3.0TDI Audi with better safety, 250+bhp (with nothing more than a remap) and 50mpg.

As someone on here said to me "You're missing the point".

ASC Isn't a "marginal improvement in safety". ASC on an unexpectedly icy patch of road is the difference between a ditch and myseriously slowing down.

Would you eschew retrofitting ABS (also a huge job) as a "marginal safety increase"? ASC makes a much bigger difference? If you were already doing extensive work on the car?

[Kryton]

I'm not bothered about having a newer car with better safety (as I have just sold a 59 plate volvo, I would have kept this if not), I only wondered if this would be a worth while exercise to help me thrash down the many crappy norfolk country lanes + the occasional field track

[mattnz]

Interesting suggestion. The newer car could be a diesel too: these days VR4 money will get you a 3.0TDI Audi with better safety, 250+bhp (with nothing more than a remap) and 50mpg.

As someone on here said to me "You're missing the point".

ASC Isn't a "marginal improvement in safety". ASC on an unexpectedly icy patch of road is the difference between a ditch and myseriously slowing down.

Would you eschew retrofitting ABS (also a huge job) as a "marginal safety increase"? ASC makes a much bigger difference? If you were already doing extensive work on the car?

We don't get so much of the icy roads down here (well in Dunedin apparently we do, as I discovered on my walk this morning :/), so maybe I just don't care enough.

I would absolutely not fit ABS, I would sell the car and use the money plus the cost of fitting ABS to get a car with ABS. A lot less hassle, and a similar story with ASC. That being said, if I had the time, the skill, the tools, the swear jar, and another car to drive in the meantime, I might give it a go myself. But that's a lot of conditions to satisfy, so in most cases I would say not to bother.

[Kenneth]

If you make a mistake with the install, miss something out or just incorrectly hook something up then you could turn a safety system into an accident waiting to kill your or someone else.

If you understand what you are doing and know you are going to get it right, go for it. Otherwise, playing with a system that can mess with the brakes and the engine is not really a good idea in my opinion.

[bradc]

Kenneth does raise a good point, you would want to be extremely confident that you had everything correct and functioning as it should.

Steve, I think you may have misinterpreted what Mike said and took it way out of context. I think what he meant was more along the lines of:

'what if you start to rely on it and forget the laws of physics'

I'd argue that he is indeed correct and that you shouldn't be putting the car into a situation where you do need to rely on ASC to get you out of the situation. ASC can not change the laws of physics it can only alter the attitude of the car by braking individual wheels, there will still be a point where it runs out.

I think the time and money you would spend on this would be better spent on more expensive wheels (lighter), better tyres, brakes, anti roll bars and so on. That way you have a chassis that is genuinely going to be much better at going around corners, rather than trying to make a stock car dance electronically at the limit. Going around a corner with all of the mods done might only put the car at 85%, whereas a stock car with ASC might be at 105% of what it can handle, and that may just put you into the hedge.

[Beastlee]

If you make a mistake with the install, miss something out or just incorrectly hook something up then you could turn a safety system into an accident waiting to kill your or someone else.

If you understand what you are doing and know you are going to get it right, go for it. Otherwise, playing with a system that can mess with the brakes and the engine is not really a good idea in my opinion.

A flicker of sense amongst the bickering! I think this is probably the most constructive comment since the thread started!

[Beastlee]

Kenneth does raise a good point, you would want to be extremely confident that you had everything correct and functioning as it should.

Steve, I think you may have misinterpreted what Mike said and took it way out of context. I think what he meant was more along the lines of:

'what if you start to rely on it and forget the laws of physics'

I'd argue that he is indeed correct and that you shouldn't be putting the car into a situation where you do need to rely on ASC to get you out of the situation. ASC can not change the laws of physics it can only alter the attitude of the car by braking individual wheels, there will still be a point where it runs out.

I think the time and money you would spend on this would be better spent on more expensive wheels (lighter), better tyres, brakes, anti roll bars and so on. That way you have a chassis that is genuinely going to be much better at going around corners, rather than trying to make a stock car dance electronically at the limit. Going around a corner with all of the mods done might only put the car at 85%, whereas a stock car with ASC might be at 105% of what it can handle, and that may just put you into the hedge.

Brad, I think this is quite right actually. Since doing the mods to mine I am able to push the car harder than before, however I always run out of balls before the car runs out of capability, occasionally I run out of talent too and the ASC has saved me at that point!

[Sydo]

ASC will be mandatory on all new cars sold in the state of Victoria (Australia) from Jan 1 2011.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/BuyingASafeCar/ESCmandatoryfrom1January2011.htm

[Turbo_Steve]

If you make a mistake with the install, miss something out or just incorrectly hook something up then you could turn a safety system into an accident waiting to kill your or someone else.

If you understand what you are doing and know you are going to get it right, go for it. Otherwise, playing with a system that can mess with the brakes and the engine is not really a good idea in my opinion.

Totally agree with all that. And the same is true of anything to do with the braking or fuel system, suspension and electrics......I read it as implicit that modification is done with a degree of understanding and at your own risk?



'what if you start to rely on it and forget the laws of physics'


Ye Cannae change the laws-a physics, Capn :)
If that is the case, yes, I agree - it's a safety system (ABS) NOT a driver aid (TCL, AYC).



I guess I am taking the view that adding ASC is something you do whilst you're doing a lot of additional modification: it WOULD be a lot of work to simply fit it on it's own.
However, I maintain that the same argument has been had about seatbelts for years - and I wouldn't have a car without them.

[Kenneth]

Not personally got a problem with ASC, I think it is a brilliant system which has saved many lives. I just would never retro-fit something of this nature.


One other thing to bring up is that the ASC systems in VR-4s isn't exactly state of the art. My understanding is that modern ASC systems have come a long long way.